Wes Hodkiewicz - Journalism, Packers, Relationships & Telling the Story - Episode #75

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What's up friends, Welcome back
to Rooted Wisconsin.

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Appreciate you for clicking
another episode.

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Always grateful to have you
here.

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Today's episode is with Wes
Hodkowitz, senior writer with

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the Green Bay Packers.
I've known I've wanted Wes on

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the pod for a while, mainly from
seeing his LinkedIn game.

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If you're on LinkedIn, make sure
you follow Wes.

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Hilarious.
Great follow.

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Even though admittedly he's
toned it down a little bit.

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Still great.
Even better conversation.

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We talked about his journey to
the Packers.

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A longtime writer with the Press
Gazette.

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Before getting there, he said
his dream job was to be the

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sports editor of the Press
Gazette.

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And plans change, life changes.
And here he is, 10 years later

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with the Packers.
His 10th anniversary is coming

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this week, I believe.
Great conversation.

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And we talk about the value of
hard work.

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We talk about accuracy and
perfection versus getting the

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job done, being a dad, all the
circular things of life.

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You know how we do it here.
Awesome conversation.

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Great to have you here for it.
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Let's get into this episode with
Wes Hodkowitz.

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We're almost back to draft
season, but yeah, it's like it.

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The Packers stuff is like you
get to the end of the year.

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It's like man.
Yeah, you've got to have a deep

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breath.
Time, right.

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Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's I
always said it took me like 10

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years to figure it out.
But like when the season ends,

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that is actually like the not
that I want to be vacationing in

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January or early February, but
it's like that's actually the

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peak time to be off.
Because when you want to win a

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Super Bowl every year, but when
you lose like fans completely

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check out, it's almost like they
need like this little bit of a,

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you know, reprieve from it.
And I didn't take enough

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advantage of that when I was
younger.

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I'm like, OK, well, we got final
locker room, so I got to run

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like 8 story.
No, dude check out as much as

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you can and and the other thing
is to our vacation resets on

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April 1st, we go on the fiscal
year.

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OK.
So which I actually really like

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because when I was at the
newspaper it was December 31st.

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But once July hits, you can't
really take time off anyway.

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Yeah.
So now it's like, OK, well, get

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as much as I can in the spring,
in the summer, but then whatever

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else I don't have left.
Well, there's all this time and

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winter where I can not be there.
So that I've, I've learned as as

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I've gotten older, I'm like,
I've taken a better advantage of

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that now.
That's an interesting thing to

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think about.
I I never like I wouldn't have

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thought about it that way
either, but it makes sense.

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I mean, NF LS a long season and
people are, I think of all the

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sports, probably most
emotionally invested in it.

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It's like a going through a
tumultuous life, you know, like

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you get to an end point.
You're like who?

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I need a minute here.
I've only covered, I guess tech

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it was an 8 and 9 season, but
like they were competing for the

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playoffs in 22 right?
But I've only really covered 2

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losing years in 17 and 18 Sick.
But what was weird about it was

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still like the fan even in
November and December those

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years.
Now 17 Rodgers had the

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collarbone, could potentially
come back, make a playoff run,

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but 18 didn't go very well at
all.

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And in that regard, like people
still there is like this

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insatiable desire still for
content, Like people still read.

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And it seems to me, and I don't
cover the Brewers or the Bucks,

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but it seems to me like if
they're out of it, fans kind of

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check out like they might I from
everyone I know at the Bucks

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this year.
I think that was kind of a

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thing.
You know, it's like if you're 32

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and 50, like everyone just kind
of OK, cool.

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But like this freaking little
town up here, man, no matter

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what happens, they're always
interested in it.

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So.
Yeah, man.

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Yeah.
Until, until the whole Giannis

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thing came about.
And then it kind of, you know,

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back to ESPN headlines and stuff
like that.

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But for a while there, yeah, it
was radio silence.

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Hell, that's most of my life as
a Bucks fan.

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He's been radio silence.
Dude, it was, I got to go.

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I got a chance to go to game six
of the Eastern Conference

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finals.
And as a lifelong Bucks fan,

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like, what else was better,
dude.

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Like, even though that was the
game that Giannis had to miss

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because of the knee, but then
like, he makes the superhero

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comeback and we win the
championship.

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It's like, man, he's forever
ingrained in me.

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I mean.
Dude, like I grew up so like I,

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I couldn't really watch the
Bucks in the 90s.

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Like it was hard to, there
wasn't like an FSN or whatever

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it is now.
So like I grew up on the Bulls a

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lot with WGN.
You can watch Jordan every day

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of the week pretty much between
that and NBC in the national

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games.
And like, but I was super

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invested when like Ray Allen and
everything happened and and they

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got on that run and then when
they lost and then they traded

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Mary Allen, then I completely
jumped off for like 10 years.

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But then it was like they got
Giannis here.

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And it's like, oh, OK, well,
this is cool.

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Like we finally got somebody
that this is a superstar league.

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I mean, every league needs
superstars, but like, that one

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specifically does.
And this has just been so cool.

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And I have some buddies and some
friends of mine that work down

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there and just have had a blast
with it.

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So yeah, it's cool, like sports
are cool.

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And then for this little state
to actually have as many cool,

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you know, sports teams and
relevant sport teams that they

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do like.
Our little town.

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Yeah, yeah.
Pull the mic a little bit

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closer.
You got it.

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But yeah.
And so that's kind of a funny

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way to start our our episode
because talking about like how

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you've done other pods, but it's
all Packers related and stuff

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like, I love your Packers
content.

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It's good.
But when I initially reached out

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to you, like, I have a
completely different motivation

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of reaching out to you to be on
the podcast because I came

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across like, I came across your
content on LinkedIn and I

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thought it was hilarious.
Dude, it's so funny.

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And you're the second person
I've had on the podcast because

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I found their content on
LinkedIn.

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Really.
Yeah.

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Because it's just such a stuffy,
stingy place sometimes.

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Like I it's got so much value,
but like it's not a place that I

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scroll frequently because like I
it's it's a place to go with

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intention.
Yes, with something definitely.

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And you are such a breath of
fresh air on LinkedIn, dude.

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I love like ribbing your boss
and just like all the funny

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posts you make crack me up and I
was that's what was the initial

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that was the main motivation I
have.

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Having you on the pod is just
making me laugh on LinkedIn

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dude.
I think it's.

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Hilarious, and I've kind of
toned it down a little.

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Bit it's like.
Why I just, it's like, you know,

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I, I was making a little bit too
much fun of it.

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But here's what happened.
Like the whole story with that

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is I had a LinkedIn account a
decade ago, like, and I lost

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access to it because stupidly,
my previous job at the Green Bay

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Press Gazette, I tied my e-mail
to that account.

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So I, I didn't have a LinkedIn
account from like 2013 to like

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2024.
And it was wild, like you talk

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about like opening up like a
time capsule when I finally, I,

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I don't know what made me do it,
but I was like, you know what, I

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actually want to get this back
because I had like 300

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connections on there.
I had friends that aren't on any

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other social media platforms.
So I wanted, you know, to see

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what they're, what's going on in
their lives.

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And I log back on and it was
literally like 10 years of

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messages from people.
And I started scrolling through

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this and I'm like, gosh, this is
so silly.

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Like I think it's really
beneficial for young people,

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especially when you're trying to
make connections.

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You try I I wish I would have
something like that when I broke

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right, because it's it's a
really neat Ave. to see

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opportunities, see what people
are doing.

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It's just the the I'm thrilled
generation is just I I've kind

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of struggle with that.
So it's like I, I sort of found

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a couple different ways to sort
of playfully jab at that, but

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I'm maturing in my old age and I
want to make sure I don't like

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go too far over in any specific
directions.

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But yeah, it's it's like 10 is
so funny.

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It's it's a silly little thing.
It really is.

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What do you mean about the I'm
Thrilled generation?

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What do you mean by?
That just the like I'm thrilled

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that you know, I such and such,
you know, I think you should

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have, you know, you get a
promotion.

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Absolutely, you know, I get all
that.

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But it's like, it's that it's
that like just constantly

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raising your hand to tell people
what you're doing.

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And I, and this is probably
where I'm now showing like my

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true like millennial sort of
sense is like where I broke into

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the industry.
It was so much based on like I

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worked the first like 3 1/2
years of the newspaper, like my

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face, my, my face never
appeared.

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I was a byline.
And then I think I did like 1

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like training camp type preview
thing where we did like a pole

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and they actually had to take my
headshot for it.

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And I was like, I still have the
paper.

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Like my mom, my grandmother both
saved it where it was like my

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first time my face appeared in
the paper.

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But like when I got a promotion
or I got full time at the press

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because that it wasn't like
there was like this, you know,

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marching band behind me to kind
of like, it's like, Hey,

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congratulations, kid, you're
making $30,000 a year and you

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can afford, you know, some
health insurance.

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It's like, fantastic, let's go.
I'm in.

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But I didn't really have like
the rest of it that goes with

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it.
I, I think that's probably just

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one thing in general.
It's not just exclusive to

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LinkedIn.
It's just in life.

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Like it's just like, I think
we're right now conditioned to

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people and it's, it's not that I
don't think you can be proud of

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what you're achieving.
I, I think that's really

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important, but I think it's the
people that look at that and

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say, well, why am I not doing
that?

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You are doing it like
everybody's doing it.

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We're all clawing through this
thing, trying to find a way and

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support our families and, you
know, have success and, and you

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don't be able to make car
payments.

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I think all that stuff is really
important.

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But I, I think sometimes it
probably whether ties into

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mental health or whether
whatever it goes back to, we're

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just always in this measuring
stick sort of mindset.

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And I just that that's what
makes me laugh when I log on to

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LinkedIn and it's like, OK, I'm
going to get 12 updates on, Hey,

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I'm thrilled that today I went
down to the water and threw a

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Rock, You know, across like it's
just, it's like great, you know,

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so.
Yeah, it is a it is a very

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measuring stick area.
And I, I definitely agree with

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that concept.
Like we, I mean, social media in

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general has created all of these
things, like all the way back to

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like the Instagram thing, how
filters changed our lives.

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Like that isn't particularly
real life, no matter what

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lipstick you try to put on it.
And I think LinkedIn almost

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breeds it like because they make
those canned like do you want to

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post this?
And they write the whole damn

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thing for.
You and it's like you just

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click.
The button and they all look the

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00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:24,000
same.
It's like, yes, OK, this does

225
00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:28,600
nothing for your personal brand.
But yeah, man, that's that's why

226
00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:30,000
I reached out.
It's funny as hell.

227
00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:32,440
And it's you go back to the
press because that I've been

228
00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:35,720
such, I was such a laggard with
social media.

229
00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:38,560
John, myself and my colleague,
my best friend to this day,

230
00:10:38,560 --> 00:10:40,560
Scott Vincey, he's still there
is one of the prep writers

231
00:10:40,560 --> 00:10:42,320
there.
Our general assignment, he does

232
00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:44,960
a bunch of different stuff and
we push.

233
00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:48,680
So in 2009, the press cassette
wanted us all to get on Twitter.

234
00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:50,040
Everyone's got to get on
Twitter.

235
00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:52,560
And me and Scott were both like,
oh, come on, this is silly.

236
00:10:52,560 --> 00:10:54,880
We don't want to be on Twitter.
Well, they made us.

237
00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:57,240
So then we kind of made a
mockery of that at first.

238
00:10:57,640 --> 00:10:59,600
Then.
And then at one point they're

239
00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:00,920
like, well, you got to get
verified.

240
00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:02,840
And I'm like, I don't want to
get verified.

241
00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:05,280
They're like, you have to.
And it's like, well, how can I

242
00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:08,720
block it from getting verified?
So I put my buddies, you need to

243
00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:11,720
put the press cassettes, e-mail
in order to get like the big

244
00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:13,360
check mark, whatever.
This is like a big thing for

245
00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:15,520
Gannett.
So instead of me doing that, I

246
00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:18,120
put my buddies photography
business instead is my thing.

247
00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:19,800
So it purposely would not verify
me.

248
00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:22,760
I gave them so many headaches
with it.

249
00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:26,960
So then twenty 2015 comes around
and we go to Instagram and I'll

250
00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:29,160
never forget this Kyle Bursar,
God bless him.

251
00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:33,640
Great guy, works down at UWM now
and he was the one that was like

252
00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:36,360
kind of put in charge of he's a
photographer for us at the time,

253
00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:38,000
but he was put in charge like
teaching us how to use

254
00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:41,000
Instagram.
And I'm like, I had no interest

255
00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:42,560
at all.
It's like I write stories,

256
00:11:42,560 --> 00:11:44,080
buddy.
Like I, I mean, what, what do

257
00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:45,400
you want me to do with all this
stuff?

258
00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:48,880
And the amount of push back at.
So I guess the LinkedIn thing is

259
00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:51,080
like the most, it's like the
most recent thing.

260
00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:52,960
I think some people are kind of
trying to, if you don't know me,

261
00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:54,760
you're trying to sort of figure
out what my personality is.

262
00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:57,720
But I mean, there's a track
record of 15 years of me just

263
00:11:57,720 --> 00:11:59,560
continually going against the
grain.

264
00:11:59,560 --> 00:12:01,240
I'm basically any type of social
media.

265
00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:04,440
But the other aspect that I have
to appreciate, especially as a

266
00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:06,680
writer is it's just what we got
to do.

267
00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:07,800
You know, you have to be
different.

268
00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:09,840
My, my degree is not in
broadcasting at all.

269
00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:12,200
It wasn't.
I never took a single class in

270
00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:13,840
front of a camera.
I'm not saying I'm any good at

271
00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:16,920
it, but like I have to do it.
And that's all just from

272
00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:20,960
adaptation and evolution and
adjusting to what my job is

273
00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:23,680
because unfortunately, like, we
just, we don't read as much as a

274
00:12:23,680 --> 00:12:25,560
society anymore.
We don't write as much.

275
00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:28,000
And I love it.
That's what I do.

276
00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:29,200
That's what gets me up in the
morning.

277
00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:31,760
But I have to be able to do
these things.

278
00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:35,160
And the last thing I'll say is I
made a stance after the whole

279
00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:37,000
Instagram thing.
I'm like, I will never go on

280
00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:38,680
another social media platform
again.

281
00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:42,840
This is my last one.
And then sure enough, two years

282
00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:45,680
ago, I end up having to get a
TikTok to, you know, so I'm not

283
00:12:45,680 --> 00:12:47,200
dancing on it.
OK, I was going to.

284
00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:48,360
Say it.
I'm still trying to figure out

285
00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:50,720
exactly what kind of content to
put on there, but I'm not.

286
00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:52,120
I'm not going to be dancing
anytime soon.

287
00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:53,720
But that was a that was a
mandate.

288
00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:57,960
It wasn't it wasn't it wasn't.
It was from the nobody at the

289
00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:02,480
Packers told me to do it, but I
work arts department is digital

290
00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:04,280
and social media.
So I'm with our entire social

291
00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:06,440
media department.
So there would be times where

292
00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,680
they're asking me for my opinion
on like grammar or just the way

293
00:13:09,680 --> 00:13:12,120
things are worded.
Or what I think about this are

294
00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:16,720
the Packers pro shop use me in
one of their ads and then I

295
00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:19,120
couldn't watch it because I
didn't have a TikTok account.

296
00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:20,800
So then eventually I'm like, all
right, fine, I'll go on there

297
00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:22,480
and do it.
And then what happens?

298
00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:24,480
I go and do a stupid tasting
video.

299
00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:28,000
Not stupid, but I go and do a
they did the new menu at Lambeau

300
00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:31,880
Field for tasting like what the
new items are going in the

301
00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:34,600
upcoming season.
I do a silly video of that, and

302
00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:37,560
then that ends up getting
however many thousands of likes.

303
00:13:37,560 --> 00:13:39,360
It's just, it's it's funny what
pops off.

304
00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:42,360
Yeah, what pops off in this era
is, like, really fascinating.

305
00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:45,120
Yeah, I remember there was like
a there was a brat thing in that

306
00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:46,720
video that sounded.
The brat egg roll.

307
00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:48,720
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I don't even eat.

308
00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:51,720
I don't like cheese, but yeah,
that thing, I was like, oh, you

309
00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:55,240
know, got to do it for the gram.
So we're just going to, we're

310
00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:57,920
going to do it anyway.
Yeah, that one I would have had

311
00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:00,680
a tough time with because like
you, you look at it from a

312
00:14:00,680 --> 00:14:03,360
tactical standpoint, Twitter
made a ton of sense.

313
00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:06,760
Like for what Twitter did at
that time and and what it is

314
00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:11,360
making the making the journalist
get an Instagram that's.

315
00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:14,880
That was a tough one and the and
you got to remember this is

316
00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:16,360
after we're doing like they gave
us.

317
00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:18,160
What were those contraptions
called?

318
00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:22,480
Like basically before iPhones
where they would give you man, I

319
00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:24,640
wish I could remember what it
was.

320
00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:28,120
It had Ausb in it and you take
video and then you could just

321
00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:33,400
plug the the USB in and it would
download the MP3 or MOV file.

322
00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:35,560
And then we would post that to
like our YouTube account and

323
00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:38,080
things like that.
There were all these little

324
00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:41,560
things that can that was trying
to, you know, kind of do the the

325
00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:44,800
next advancement in media.
So I think that was just a part

326
00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:46,120
of it.
And they they wanted us to be

327
00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:48,080
doing more on those social media
platforms.

328
00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:50,960
But yeah, I mean, like at this
point too, it's like 2015.

329
00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:52,960
What is that the iPhone 4 or
five?

330
00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:54,400
I don't even know what they're
on at that point.

331
00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:57,720
I mean, I'm getting these potato
type photos, you know, compared

332
00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:01,240
to like what Evan Siegel and and
Kyle and all our actual

333
00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:04,240
photographers are getting.
But that was just the era and

334
00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:07,360
trying to learn how to use that
and Twitter and adjusting the

335
00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:10,080
print mindset to, you know, that
next generation.

336
00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:12,440
So the cool thing about it is
though that I think is really

337
00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:17,000
fun is, you know, you fail, you
have success, you just try it

338
00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:18,880
and some stuff sticks, some
stuff doesn't.

339
00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:21,720
But I think that one thing with
my personality too, is I've

340
00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:24,240
never really been afraid to just
do different stuff.

341
00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:28,640
And if something works, great,
and if it doesn't, on to the

342
00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:30,440
next.
You have to be in your space.

343
00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:33,480
You you have to be like that.
That's a precursor to success in

344
00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:35,360
most senses.
I think we've got quite a bit of

345
00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:37,120
overlap probably in that
sentiment.

346
00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:39,520
So you coming in as a
journalist?

347
00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:43,000
Sounds like you started as a
journalist in like 2008, 9006,

348
00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:45,920
six.
OK, So I started in radio

349
00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:48,440
broadcasting in like 2009, yeah.
Yeah.

350
00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:52,640
Similar thing, right, like you,
you dive in really passionately

351
00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:56,160
to this area that you get in and
all the old heads are like it's

352
00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:59,200
dying, the world is on fire.
This we're not, you know, it's

353
00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:00,440
all, it's all, it's a sinking
ship.

354
00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:06,120
And I think that causes
complacency in that thing.

355
00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:08,640
And that's what I used to
separate myself in that career

356
00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:10,520
too.
I was just like, I'll, I'll try

357
00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,360
something new and if it doesn't
work, like I sounded like an

358
00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:15,480
idiot one day, nobody's going to
remember anyway.

359
00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:19,360
It doesn't matter.
My to use one more of my

360
00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:23,800
analogies or one of my stories
from my buddy Scott 20 So I

361
00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:26,440
started when I was 18 years old,
I was writing when I was 18.

362
00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:30,160
So I actually started working at
the Press Gazette before I was

363
00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:34,320
even in college yet.
So I was really, really bad at

364
00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:36,240
first.
My whole job was to be a score

365
00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:38,400
taker.
So like Bayport High School

366
00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,800
plays a Schwabenon in soccer.
They would call that in.

367
00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:44,320
I would get the results, who
scored the goals with the

368
00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:45,800
assists were saves, all that
stuff.

369
00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:47,840
And I'd write little, you know,
descriptions.

370
00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:50,520
Well, my boss at the time, Mike
Vandermoss, he wanted me to

371
00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:52,600
start writing other stories,
going out and covering like the

372
00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:55,320
Green Bay gamblers or, you know,
sectional cross country.

373
00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:58,440
Like I'd have to cover all these
little events and I didn't have

374
00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:01,840
the tools yet to do it.
And there was couple errors that

375
00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:03,880
I made, some spelling issues
that I had had.

376
00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:05,200
And this is back in the day of
print.

377
00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:07,440
So like, you can't just make it
a Boo Boo.

378
00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:11,000
And then, oh, I'll just go back
on and adjust it on, you know,

379
00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:12,599
our Word doc or pocket or
whatever.

380
00:17:12,599 --> 00:17:14,560
No, it's like, no, it's, it's
out there and everyone got to

381
00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:16,119
see it.
You're a complete moron.

382
00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:19,319
Yeah, I got plenty of emails
from Saint Orbra college

383
00:17:19,319 --> 00:17:22,200
professors telling me that, you
know, what are you doing?

384
00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:28,200
But be that as it may, the cool
thing about it was I had a

385
00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:34,680
chance to really start to get
into the business and just learn

386
00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,880
while I'm doing it.
And Scott had told me he got, he

387
00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:39,360
said to me, I was, I was 19
years old.

388
00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:41,920
And I remember this, I had this
literally written down somewhere

389
00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:47,320
in a notebook where he's like,
Wes, you're 19 years old, you're

390
00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:51,320
not going to care about some
story you wrote way back when.

391
00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:53,840
You're not going to think about
what the person's name was or

392
00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:57,000
what the issue was with it.
When you're 80, you're going to

393
00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:00,360
think, oh man, I'm 80 and I'm
going to die soon and none of

394
00:18:00,360 --> 00:18:04,120
this other stuff matters like,
and I've just always kind of

395
00:18:04,120 --> 00:18:05,480
brought that with me.
It's going to be really

396
00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:06,840
depressing, you know, good Lord
willing.

397
00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:08,840
If I actually do get to 80 where
I'm like, oh crap, now I'm

398
00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:11,760
actually here.
But back then, which is now a

399
00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:15,280
half a lifetime ago for me, like
that was really salient advice

400
00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:17,800
because it was like I I took
everything to heart and it

401
00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:19,680
really bothered me if I made a
mistake.

402
00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:21,920
And after that, it was just
like, it changed my whole

403
00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:23,520
mindset because it's like, yeah,
you know what?

404
00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:25,960
All this, by the way, press,
because that's paying me $8 an

405
00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:27,920
hour at this point.
Like they're, they're, they're

406
00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:30,680
getting just, I mean, I'm making
nothing, right?

407
00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:33,560
I went broke twice while I was
in college where I went to zero.

408
00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:36,120
And my dad's like, what's going
on here?

409
00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:38,840
Because I'm driving myself
around to these various high

410
00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:42,400
schools and state cross country
and Rapids or state wrestling

411
00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:46,640
and Madison, I had no money so.
I'm paying the proverbial dues.

412
00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:49,560
Paying the proverbial dues and
and taking my lumps while doing

413
00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:51,520
it.
So for Scott to give me that

414
00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:53,320
advice I think was really
important because it's like,

415
00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:57,400
yeah, I didn't to to that to
being completely honest with

416
00:18:57,400 --> 00:18:58,840
that.
I don't remember any of that

417
00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:02,120
stuff now, you know, 19 years
later, I was like, I all that

418
00:19:02,120 --> 00:19:04,080
stuff happened.
I learned from it and we

419
00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:05,520
adjusted.
Yeah, absolutely.

420
00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:07,480
It's funny that we went this
way.

421
00:19:08,360 --> 00:19:09,880
I you're the second writer I've
had on.

422
00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:14,240
I had a writer on a couple.
We in in like the past month and

423
00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:15,560
actually you might have crossed
paths with him.

424
00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:16,960
Did you work with Pat Durkin or
was?

425
00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:18,360
I can't.
Pat Durkin, Yeah, Outdoors

426
00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:19,160
reporter.
Yeah.

427
00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:22,920
Yeah, Pat was not in our he
didn't work in The Newsroom with

428
00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:25,000
me.
I mean, he, he did a column

429
00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:28,160
every week and he worked for us,
but like, it wasn't like I had a

430
00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:29,840
desk set up with him.
But yeah, Pat was, yeah, he was

431
00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:30,960
our outdoors guy.
Yeah.

432
00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:33,840
His career was in a little
different spot at that time, but

433
00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:37,080
he he told a hilarious story
about missing the missing the

434
00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:39,880
stock market crash.
So all the other head papers

435
00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:43,400
headlines, yes, weren't the
crash but or were the crash but

436
00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:45,560
his wasn't, Yes.
And he got to have this

437
00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:47,640
interesting conversation with
his boss.

438
00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:51,520
But yeah, it's you.
Can you work through that stuff?

439
00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:53,440
And I mean, everybody makes
mistakes.

440
00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:56,880
It's just that yours are so much
more visible in your industry.

441
00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:59,720
And it wasn't my fault, but we I
was also on staff too when we

442
00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:02,560
had the whole on to Chica Co
Fiasto fiasco.

443
00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:06,880
If you remember that, maybe not
when the Packers beat, I think

444
00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:10,240
that was what would they beat
Atlanta to advance in the the

445
00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:13,320
playoffs in Super Bowl 45 and
they went to go play the Bears

446
00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:16,280
again.
And in our headline, it was on

447
00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:20,480
to Chicago, but we botched it.
We did on to Chicico and

448
00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:22,520
occasionally all of them
reference it my writing all

449
00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:26,440
reference in our little inbox.
Q And AI think Jay Leno picked

450
00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:28,600
up on it, like got the paper and
everything he had like bad

451
00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:30,480
headlines or something.
Where is one of the sticks, you

452
00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:34,320
know, things he had.
So, and then our executive

453
00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:35,640
editors, we all took it in
stride.

454
00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,680
I mean, it, it, there was like 4
people that passed through.

455
00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:40,520
This was on the front page of
the Press Gazette.

456
00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:42,120
Go find.
It's probably still like one or

457
00:20:42,120 --> 00:20:46,360
two, like on eBay every now and
then, but it happens, you know,

458
00:20:46,360 --> 00:20:48,680
and I, I think that's the
biggest thing, like, and it

459
00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:50,840
doesn't really apply just the
journalism or writing or

460
00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:51,880
anything.
It's just there's, there's

461
00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:55,120
always second chances.
So it's like making sure that

462
00:20:55,120 --> 00:20:57,560
you don't let one set back, you
know, as long as you can learn

463
00:20:57,560 --> 00:20:59,320
from it.
And you hear that cliche all the

464
00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:00,680
time.
But I mean, the best lessons

465
00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:02,320
that you're ever told are from
mistakes.

466
00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:04,360
It's not from successor, you
know, It's always from failure.

467
00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:06,440
For sure, yeah.
And the most successful people

468
00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:08,480
are often the most persistent
people because of that.

469
00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:12,280
It's because you can overlook
that stuff. 100% on to chick

470
00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:13,160
ago.
I dig it.

471
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:14,880
Yeah, go find it out there
somewhere.

472
00:21:16,360 --> 00:21:18,240
So I want to linger on that a
little bit though, because I

473
00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:20,560
think it's fascinating.
You said, I think I heard you

474
00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:22,880
write earlier, you said your
college degree isn't in

475
00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:26,480
journalism.
You started writing at 19.

476
00:21:27,120 --> 00:21:30,560
Why?
Yeah, so really weird story how

477
00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:33,880
it all worked out.
I worked at McDonald's in

478
00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:38,000
Howard, WI up here and Velp Ave.
and it just so happened.

479
00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:41,000
Very small group, but we all
like 2 of my best friends in

480
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:42,200
life ended up coming out of
that.

481
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,040
One is my buddy Nick Goddard,
who is my manager there.

482
00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,280
He's now assistant video guy on
the football tech side for the

483
00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:49,600
Packers.
Just coincident.

484
00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:50,680
We both took our own little
paths.

485
00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:53,320
We never really worked together
again after McDonald's, but we

486
00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:55,120
just ended up both being at the
same place.

487
00:21:55,120 --> 00:21:57,120
It's Green Bay.
Yeah, certain amount of people

488
00:21:57,120 --> 00:21:58,640
end up working.
It's not. 6° here.

489
00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:00,600
It's just, yeah, it just happens
2 1/2.

490
00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:05,040
But then the other one was my
buddy Dave, who I knew a little

491
00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:07,760
bit when I was at McDonald's,
but then in later in life we

492
00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:12,080
became best friends and his dad
was a sportster at the Press

493
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:13,600
Gazette.
Mike Vander Moss.

494
00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:18,640
And a week before the prep
season in the summer of O6, the

495
00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:23,600
guy that was their part timer,
29 hours a week got a job and

496
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:27,680
was going down to Louisiana.
So they were in the 11th hour

497
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:29,240
right before the start of the
prep season.

498
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:31,320
They were scrambling to find
somebody that could take prep

499
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:34,720
calls.
And that's how I had heard about

500
00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:36,360
it.
And I, I wasn't working at

501
00:22:36,360 --> 00:22:37,840
McDonald's anymore.
I was then at this point at

502
00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:39,760
Maplewood Meats, but I was
looking, you know, my, I was a

503
00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:42,760
year older than my girlfriend at
the time.

504
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:44,360
She was still going to be in
high school.

505
00:22:44,360 --> 00:22:46,080
We're both going to go down in
Milwaukee together.

506
00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:47,400
She was going to go to
Marquette.

507
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:50,000
I was going to UWM.
And I'm like, oh, it'd be cool

508
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,160
to work at a newspaper for a
year, like while I'm getting my

509
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:53,840
Gen. eds and then have that
transfer down.

510
00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:57,680
And I always enjoyed sports, I
always enjoyed statistics, I

511
00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:01,640
enjoyed writing, but I wasn't
necessarily sure if that was

512
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,440
going to be my path.
At one point at GBI was double

513
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,640
majoring as communications and
history because I want to be a

514
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:10,280
history professor.
I've always liked U.S. history

515
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:14,200
and things of that nature.
So it just ended up being that

516
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:17,200
that opportunity opened up to me
and, and after a lot of lumps

517
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,320
and a lot of bruises, I got
through that first year and I

518
00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:23,800
just fell in love with it.
So then my girlfriend end up

519
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:26,280
going down to Marquette.
We kept it together but I ended

520
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,080
up staying up here at GB.
So I went to WGB, got my

521
00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:32,160
communications degree and end up
being multifaceted.

522
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:35,520
So it was journalism, PR,
organizational communication,

523
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:39,080
and corporate communication was
it sounds fancy but it was like

524
00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:41,280
2 extra classes for each one and
then.

525
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:42,880
It was army knife.
Yes, yeah.

526
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:47,280
And in the entire time I like, I
had a very awful college

527
00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:48,560
experience.
It wasn't fun at all.

528
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:52,040
Like, because it, I'm working
the entire time, like every

529
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:55,440
night, Monday through Friday, I
always had to do something and

530
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:57,120
then Saturdays I had to usually
cover a game.

531
00:23:57,520 --> 00:23:59,880
So I would get done with school
5:00.

532
00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:02,120
I'd have to usually be in at the
press cuz at at six or seven,

533
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:05,240
I'd work till 11 or midnight and
then I have to be up for school

534
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:08,200
at 8 the next morning again.
So I didn't like have like a

535
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:11,480
like I always say, like I'm
incredibly blessed and I love

536
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,560
what I do.
But man, like I, there was a lot

537
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:17,480
of blood, sweat and tears that
went into that just from kind of

538
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:20,920
hoping that betting on myself
that we would be able to.

539
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:23,400
And then the middle of my time
there, we go through the

540
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:25,240
recession, we go through
everything else, The newspaper

541
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:27,200
industry starts starts to take a
dive.

542
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,760
And fortunately I just always
seem to find a life preserver.

543
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:34,200
So here we are.
And now people get to say, oh,

544
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:35,880
you're lucky, you get to do what
you do.

545
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:37,920
There was one dude I'll never
forget.

546
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:39,680
We're at a pep rally for the
Packers.

547
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:42,040
I, I love when people say that
stuff, though.

548
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:43,480
It's cool.
Like I totally get, I work in

549
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:45,400
the toy department.
I I got very lucky with what I

550
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,080
do.
But there was a dude, I'll never

551
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:51,320
forget this guy.
We were in Atlanta for a pep

552
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:54,320
rally and I was outside.
We were going in because these

553
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,760
little pep rallies we do myself
and my colleague Mike Spa for,

554
00:24:57,760 --> 00:24:59,600
we like, we have to go up there
and preview the game.

555
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,480
They usually have alumni that
come in, Mark Murphy, the

556
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:04,600
president CEO at the time, he
would speak, but they would have

557
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:06,760
us come up and do like an X's
and O's kind of breakdown, try

558
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:10,040
to get the crowd all revved up.
And a guy comes up to me as

559
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:13,280
we're walking out and he's like,
hey, Wes, right.

560
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:15,480
I'm like, yeah.
And he's like, hey, you know, I

561
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,320
just want to let you basically
let me know how lucky you are.

562
00:25:18,360 --> 00:25:19,960
I'm like, oh, Yep, no thanks.
I appreciate it.

563
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:22,280
And then he hit me with this.
I'll never, I never forget this.

564
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:24,320
He's like, I hope you appreciate
it.

565
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:28,680
And I've never punched anyone in
my life.

566
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,400
But like in that moment I could
have like, I was so hurt by that

567
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:37,880
because it's like, dude, if you
had any idea of like what I put

568
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:42,200
myself through to get here,
like, I hope you appreciate it.

569
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,480
I'm like, yeah, yeah, I do
appreciate it, but it's like.

570
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:48,200
I hope you.
Appreciate you should you should

571
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,920
have been around in my 20s.
It was not fun at all ever.

572
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:55,960
So I mean, I always tell people
it's like so I started when I

573
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,440
was 18 at the Press Gazette.
Awesome experience.

574
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,320
I was able to be there like
during the final hour of like a

575
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,080
full bustling newsroom, right?
Like I didn't there wasn't even

576
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:05,920
enough desks for people at that
time.

577
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:09,240
And then 2019 hit.
I'm 19 years.

578
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:14,040
I'm sorry, 20 O seven hit.
I'm 19 and I'm helping like our

579
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:16,400
entertainment editor clear out
her desk because she got laid

580
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:18,880
off, right?
Twenty O 9 hit.

581
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,040
I'm going to state track and
field with my buddy Corey.

582
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:24,960
We're covering that.
I'm coming back and we know

583
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:26,120
we're going to have layoffs on
Monday.

584
00:26:26,120 --> 00:26:29,320
We both went to bed like
Saturday night after state track

585
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:30,880
wondering if we're going to have
jobs the next week.

586
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,680
And then that week in The
Newsroom, our executive editor

587
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,840
went around basically at 4 O
clock doing like duck, duck

588
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:42,880
goose, grabbing people and
laying people off Like it it so

589
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,920
did have that moment happen
really that that was that's like

590
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,760
the only moment I think in my
entire life where I was like

591
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:54,200
enraged, like I was so upset.
But it just, it comes with it.

592
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:57,360
So I just I've just been really
lucky that I've had a lot of

593
00:26:57,360 --> 00:26:59,720
good mentors, a lot of good
people have looked out for me.

594
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,880
And in some way, I hope I've
kind of been able to pass that

595
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:05,840
on to some folks.
Yeah, Yeah, that's interesting

596
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,600
to think about.
I, I used to get a little, I had

597
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:11,240
AI felt the type of way about
that stuff too.

598
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:14,240
Like a, oh, you get paid to
talk, how lucky are you?

599
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:16,680
Like, OK, I get where you're
coming from.

600
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:21,040
I get why that sentiment exists.
But at the same time, like the

601
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:25,520
first radio job I took was
running the board at six.

602
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,440
I went in at 5 or 6.
I can't remember running the

603
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,440
board on Sunday mornings.
I got to crack the mic for like

604
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,680
an hour and a half and then I
got and then I bored up the

605
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:39,040
NASCAR race 6 O clock on Sunday
morning as a 20 year old and I

606
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:42,840
like you, you think about those
dues paid and you're like, it's

607
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,920
not luck at all man.
Like it's, it's decisions that I

608
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:50,320
made along the way and still I'm
working for $35,000 a year.

609
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:53,440
You think this is lucky?
No, it's, it's insane.

610
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:57,480
And yeah, I, that part of it has
always been I, I consider myself

611
00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:59,680
lucky that I wasn't laid off.
I think there's some people that

612
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:01,880
were much more talented, much
more hardworking than I were

613
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,440
that just were at a certain
point of their careers or pay

614
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:06,960
scale, those sort of things that
they just, it was their time.

615
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,360
And I, I was fortunate in that
way that I've all along the way,

616
00:28:10,360 --> 00:28:12,400
other than a couple furloughs
here and there, I never got laid

617
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:13,520
off.
No big issues there.

618
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,080
But the other side of it too is
it's like I, my dad always told

619
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:18,920
me like as I was growing up,
he's like, you always got to

620
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,040
find ways to create value.
Doesn't matter what you do.

621
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:22,760
My parents both worked at the
mill down here.

622
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:25,240
And.
He's like, you don't, you have

623
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:27,160
to make yourself valuable.
You're not entitled to that

624
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,320
paycheck.
Because I think I hate them

625
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:32,480
mindset of like, well, you can
be replaced.

626
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:34,440
I don't like that because that
takes away the human element,

627
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:36,000
right?
You can be replaced.

628
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:37,800
Well, good, not necessarily good
luck.

629
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:39,680
Eventually they will all we'll
all get replaced.

630
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,040
But it's like, what is the
difficulty going to be in the

631
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,960
interim trying to replace you?
That's where the human comes in.

632
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:46,400
That's where the worker comes
in, right?

633
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,520
So we're not just all avatars,
like we all bring something to

634
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:50,920
the table.
We all, whether it's through our

635
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,640
work or the way we interact with
our Co workers, there's value

636
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,080
laced and all that.
But that being said, you can't

637
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:57,960
ever just think that you're
entitled to everything that

638
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:03,080
you're going to get.
And that I think having 10 years

639
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:06,680
at the newspaper industry before
I moved on with my career was a

640
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:08,040
blessing and a curse in some
ways.

641
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:10,400
I think in, in, in the curse way
it made me.

642
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:12,600
So I'm like a little bit of a
deer in terms of just my

643
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:15,120
sensitivity to like, I just
always think my job is in

644
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,400
jeopardy just because that's the
way I was raised.

645
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:18,760
And I've been around that for so
long.

646
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,720
But the blessing was, I mean, I
worked with some such cool,

647
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:26,040
amazing people and, and at that
point of my career, like I was

648
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:30,000
the youngest in The Newsroom in
a lot of ways by 1015 years.

649
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:32,520
And then I came over to the
Packers in 2016.

650
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:36,840
And then suddenly, like at that
point I'm 28, but like I have

651
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:39,960
now these kids coming out of
college at 2223 and they're

652
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:41,840
looking at me as like someone
that's going to be able to

653
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:44,760
impart advice and, and be a
leader and, and that sort of

654
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,080
thing.
So that's been really cool

655
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:49,360
because there's a lot of people
that have been printed on me and

656
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,600
then that I've tried to do that,
you know, the same with people

657
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:53,920
that come and spend their time
with us.

658
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:56,600
That's the best analogy.
I'm a bit like a deer.

659
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:57,640
That's why you do what you do,
man.

660
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,080
That's a great analogy.
Yeah, it's, yeah, I'm a little

661
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,160
scatter.
This is the times I'm a little

662
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:03,440
bit.
Little skittish.

663
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:05,560
What's going on around here?
Yeah, interesting.

664
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:06,960
So there's two different routes
I want to go.

665
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:08,720
I want to make sure I keep them
both in my mind.

666
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:11,600
Sure.
One since you just how did the

667
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,280
Packers opportunity come up?
How did that transition happen?

668
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,640
This is what I always tell the
people and I I say this all the

669
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:18,880
time to kids when they ask for
advice.

670
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:22,160
I had to talk to John Anderson,
ESPN green bag kid.

671
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:26,280
He he has a class now AJ school
class at Columbia in Missouri.

672
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,320
And people always ask me for
advice And I always say, well,

673
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:32,800
it you have to if you get your
foot in the door, you have to

674
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:37,400
make sure you keep it there.
And if somebody, if, if they

675
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:39,600
give you an opportunity, whether
it's an internship, whatever it

676
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,400
is, make sure you capitalize on
it because they may not be able

677
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:44,320
to hire you.
But once you get your field and

678
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:47,680
you know what this is like you,
you, you have your own network

679
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:51,160
of people and what's if there's
people that you are friends

680
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:53,360
with, there's people that you
know in the industry and you

681
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:55,080
want to help them.
So it's like, if I don't have an

682
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:57,720
opportunity for you, hey,
there's this kid over here that

683
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:00,240
might be able to help you.
And I always try to tell people

684
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:02,920
that because I think there's so
much tied into, well, if I don't

685
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:05,000
get an internship here, it's
over for me.

686
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:06,600
No, no, no, no, it's not like
that at all.

687
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:09,440
Like there this you could come
back at some point.

688
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:11,240
You could you don't go and
spread your wings elsewhere.

689
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:13,320
Sometimes it does work out.
I'm I was blessed that I stayed

690
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,640
in Green Bay the whole time and
was able to to maintain a job.

691
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,960
But I have some of my best
friends in life left for 10

692
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:22,720
years and came back.
You know, just nothing is you're

693
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:24,240
not failing in any of that
stuff.

694
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:26,960
It's just a matter of when does
the opportunity happened for you

695
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:30,440
and when does that door open?
So that that's the number one

696
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:32,920
thing that I've always, you
know, try to tell people and,

697
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:38,800
and, and work with people on is
that if, if you are able to get,

698
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:43,440
you know, 500 interns, you know,
resumes get sent in and you're

699
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:45,600
the one that they picked, you've
already accomplished something

700
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:47,760
great.
And that's something that is

701
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,000
setting you up for all the other
moves that come after it.

702
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:53,600
So, yeah, I, I don't know if I
really answer your question the

703
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:55,800
best, but I mean, in terms of
like how I've just always

704
00:31:55,800 --> 00:32:01,200
approached things, It's just
that I looked at it as there's

705
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:03,120
some really good relationships
out there and I'm going to try

706
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:05,120
to capitalize on them.
So what happened with the Press

707
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:09,320
Gazette was to give you the the
full background of it.

708
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,600
The only job I ever wanted in my
life is I wanted to be the

709
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:15,960
sports art of the Press Gazette.
That's all I ever wanted.

710
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:18,000
And it's all the thing I don't
ever attain to.

711
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:21,880
And my boss, Mike, the one that
gave me my opportunity, he got

712
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:25,200
laid off in 2013.
That changed my perspective

713
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,800
completely because now it's
like, OK, well, what I had a

714
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:31,320
vision of what I want my career
to be that may not be tenable

715
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:35,280
anymore.
And but what happened was I

716
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:38,800
started building relationships
over at the Packers and through

717
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,800
working with NFL Network, could
occasionally have me on to talk

718
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:45,040
about the team.
And they had this little box

719
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:46,560
that they would set up.
And you have to like, put your

720
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:50,920
own USB and everything like, you
know, talk to, you know, LA or

721
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,600
wherever the show was.
Well, the guy that helped me

722
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:55,440
learn how to do that, his name
is Duke Bobber.

723
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:58,960
He's the now currently the
assistant director of Digital

724
00:32:58,960 --> 00:32:59,960
and social.
He's my boss.

725
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:05,240
When 2016 came around, Dick
Ketchman, who was one of the two

726
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,360
writers, he was the editor at
the time of thepackers.com, he

727
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:11,160
was retiring.
So I caught wind from some of

728
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,240
the people I knew over there,
hey, they're going to be looking

729
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:15,520
for a new writer.
What do you think?

730
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:18,160
And I always joke about this.
I was like, I never was

731
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:20,920
interested in it, not because
it's not a great opportunity,

732
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,080
but just it was like I grew up
as a newspaper person.

733
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:25,280
It almost seemed to me that if I
went over to the team side, they

734
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:27,280
would almost be like
sacrilegious, right?

735
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:31,120
But Pete Doherty, another one of
my mentors over at the press,

736
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:33,520
because that he was the first
one that when he found out that

737
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:35,240
Victoria was going to go, he's
like, well, they're going to

738
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:37,000
come for you.
I'm like, no, they're not.

739
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:38,680
They don't need me.
Like they're they'll find,

740
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,840
they'll find somebody.
Well, seven months later,

741
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:44,240
basically to spare you all the
details, that's what ended up

742
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:48,440
happening.
So Duke is a good friend of mine

743
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,400
and became even better friend of
mine, you know, once I got over

744
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:53,800
there.
And that was all just based on

745
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,560
networking and just knowing
people you know and you'll being

746
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,680
in that environment, knowing the
other writers, knowing the

747
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:01,200
people that worked around the
building.

748
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:03,880
I think I was viewed in a lot of
ways.

749
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:07,200
Like I always say this, when I
interviewed with the Packers, I

750
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:08,679
think I had to do 7 rounds of
interviews.

751
00:34:08,679 --> 00:34:10,639
I think is what it ended up
being 7 different interviews I

752
00:34:10,639 --> 00:34:13,080
did with people.
And like whether it was Mark

753
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:15,520
Murphy, the present CEO, the
head coach at the time, Mike

754
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:18,880
McCarthy, they all could not
have been cooler about it

755
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,000
because I've covered them
critically for five years before

756
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,320
that, you know, for the paper.
So I was kind of worried like

757
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:25,719
how I'd be viewed the locker
room.

758
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:30,199
It was a little weird at first,
but within three years with how

759
00:34:30,199 --> 00:34:34,840
quickly NFL rosters turn over, I
like, I didn't even know me as

760
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,120
the newspaper guy anymore.
I was just the in house, you

761
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:40,080
know, writer.
It's kind of the the proof of

762
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:42,400
what you were just saying,
leveraging relationships and the

763
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:44,760
importance of them.
It just, it just happenstance,

764
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:45,800
right?
Like it wasn't like I was like

765
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:48,040
looking at like, hey, I got to
know all these people and like

766
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,159
develop all these relationships
and see how that can better me.

767
00:34:50,159 --> 00:34:52,120
But it was just like, oh, you
just sit in a locker room one

768
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:54,199
day and you're talking to random
people were waiting for someone,

769
00:34:54,199 --> 00:34:56,560
you know, a player or something.
You just get to know people.

770
00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:00,640
Like interpersonal communication
is such a strong asset.

771
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:03,320
I think especially now it's
being tested more than ever

772
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:07,560
because we're so based on text
messages and social media and

773
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:09,720
that sort of thing.
And there's still nothing in my

774
00:35:09,720 --> 00:35:11,640
world that I think is better
than just honestly sitting down

775
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:14,360
and talking to somebody and just
getting to know people.

776
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:18,240
And that, I think is a lot of
things that helped me kind of

777
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:21,560
develop that luck, so to speak.
Yeah, absolutely.

778
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:24,600
It's hilarious.
I so my first radio internship

779
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:28,360
was with ESPN Milwaukee.
Yeah, was super pumped up to get

780
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:30,600
the gig.
Did a terrible job.

781
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:32,160
I just thought it was cool to be
there.

782
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:34,000
Yeah, I just.
I just thought, I mean I didn't.

783
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:38,880
Do it wasn't terrible.
No, I did fine, but I didn't do,

784
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:41,560
I didn't do it the way I should
have.

785
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:43,440
I didn't leverage the
relationships.

786
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:48,040
I looked at it as, wow, this is
a neat thing to do.

787
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:51,280
Like I got to, I got to be
courtside to see Kobe hit a game

788
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:53,400
winner and Kobe was my dude at
the time.

789
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:55,400
I was like, it doesn't get
better than this.

790
00:35:55,800 --> 00:36:03,760
And it was more about like the
thing then using it to move

791
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:05,920
forward.
Like I, I didn't make those

792
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:09,160
relationships the right way.
It was all just about damn, it's

793
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:12,160
cool to be here, like and.
And by the way, that's tough

794
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:14,280
though.
Like people can beat themselves

795
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:15,920
up, but it's not easy.
It's not easy when you're

796
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:20,360
20/21/22 to like to put yourself
out there like that.

797
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:21,920
And you also don't want to be
overbearing too.

798
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:23,400
You don't want to.
You don't throw too much of

799
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:25,200
yourself at people and be like,
oh God, I don't want to deal

800
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:27,760
with this hot Kwitz kid.
He's just, he's always on, you

801
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:29,360
know, on my tail.
Like it.

802
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:30,760
It is.
It's a difficult balance to

803
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,560
strike, you know, And yeah.
Yeah, yeah.

804
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:37,000
It was I, I just could have, I,
I could have worked harder.

805
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:39,440
And that's what I that's what I
didn't do right, You know, like

806
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:44,200
it was, I did fine, whatever.
I did what I did, but I didn't I

807
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:48,040
didn't do all the things that go
above and beyond that did great

808
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,400
work.
It was just like, they're not

809
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:52,560
paying me.
But this is a cool experience.

810
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:56,280
I get to do this thing and then
after a year, the internship

811
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:58,080
ends.
And then I have this

812
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:00,720
conversation.
And I remember reflecting back

813
00:37:00,720 --> 00:37:03,040
on, I was like, I probably could
have done some things

814
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:08,240
differently because by then,
like I didn't, I didn't know the

815
00:37:08,240 --> 00:37:10,160
job existed.
I worked at a grocery store with

816
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:11,960
a dude who had the same
internship and he's like, you

817
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:13,400
know, you like sports, why don't
you try?

818
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:16,360
And I was like, I don't know,
I'm a marketing major.

819
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:20,080
I could give it a shot.
And I applied and got the job.

820
00:37:20,240 --> 00:37:22,760
Probably be like, I was always
good at being personable.

821
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:24,440
I had that thing like I could
talk to people.

822
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:26,680
I can make relationships, did
all that stuff.

823
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:32,960
But with that, you also have to
do the thing you do really well.

824
00:37:33,240 --> 00:37:35,640
And that was the part that I
didn't take so serious that it

825
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:38,920
was like, you know, caught the
audio clip, did whatever I, you

826
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:42,800
know, it was supposed to do, but
never took advantage of the

827
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:47,240
scenario in that way where it's
like build a portfolio of work

828
00:37:47,240 --> 00:37:50,600
for a brand like ESPN that I
could have leveraged into

829
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:53,280
another thing.
It was more like I was a 19 year

830
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:55,480
old who coasted through it for a
year and thought it was super

831
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:58,680
cool and just thought that it
was going to keep getting lucky

832
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:00,960
like that.
No, I think that's just the way

833
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:02,840
we were sort of raised to.
I think that we just always

834
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:04,600
think like it's all going to
work out for you.

835
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,040
Yeah.
And and doors will just open

836
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:08,600
because that's just how life is.
That's.

837
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:09,840
Kind of what we were taught,
right?

838
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:12,160
We were taught that you get a
college degree and you'll get

839
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:13,680
the job you want and then you
can live.

840
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:16,720
That's not real life.
No, no, I mean, especially now

841
00:38:16,720 --> 00:38:18,640
when there's so many people that
get the degrees right, there's

842
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:19,840
so many people that do all those
things.

843
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:23,640
How do you separate yourself?
So I, I think that was where I

844
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,440
was lucky in that I had, because
I, I don't think your case is

845
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:27,840
rare.
I think that's what normally

846
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,520
happens.
I just, I'm, I don't know if

847
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:34,400
it's I, I grew up with like OCD
and stuff and probably some form

848
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:36,880
of ADHD.
Like I, the way I, I'm just

849
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:40,640
always wired that I keep pushing
like it.

850
00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:45,680
I'll forsake everything to make
sure it's 100% to what I feel

851
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:47,960
like I can do.
Like I, I just don't cut any

852
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:50,000
corners.
So I mean, that can be really

853
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:53,120
time consuming and I'm sure
there's certain aspects of my

854
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:56,920
life that have wiltered because
of, you know, wilted because of

855
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:58,680
that.
I'd that probably isn't a good

856
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:00,800
thing.
But like I just if I write a

857
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,440
story or if I'm working on a
project or something like that,

858
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:07,080
I just, I always have to push
and I just, I'd like, I don't

859
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:08,960
mind.
There's so many times that I've

860
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:11,760
been like the last car in the
Lambeau Field parking lot

861
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:15,520
because it's like, I know I need
to do this.

862
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:18,400
Like I'm just, I'm not a
naturally talented person.

863
00:39:18,720 --> 00:39:20,840
I've always said like I'm a
sweaty try hard.

864
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:25,640
Like I just, I push and I grind
and I have to do it.

865
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:26,960
Like that's just, that's the
only way.

866
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:29,680
Because if, if I and I probably
goes back to like not being a

867
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,280
very good athlete.
So like I recognize early on

868
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:34,680
that, hey, things are just not
naturally going to come to me.

869
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:39,040
I'm going to have to outwork
everybody in order to do it.

870
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:41,840
And yeah, I think, I think if
anything, that's probably what

871
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:43,720
aligned me up to, to be where I
am right now.

872
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:45,800
That's an immense gift,
actually.

873
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:47,920
Like it might.
I'm sure it doesn't seem like

874
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:51,560
that in the thing because I had
kind of the inverse experience.

875
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:54,400
Like everything came very easily
to me.

876
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:58,600
And that almost set me up for
failure because because it had

877
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:00,960
because it's, that's not
lasting.

878
00:40:01,240 --> 00:40:05,120
Like eventually you're going to
get to a point or with something

879
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:08,920
that is going to take that hard
work and then you have to learn

880
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:12,080
how to do it like I had to.
Now I'm an incredibly driven

881
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:14,040
person.
It's funny because Pat was ready

882
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:16,240
to die on that hill.
He talked for 20 minutes about

883
00:40:16,240 --> 00:40:18,760
how hard he works and how he
doesn't regret a moment of work

884
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:21,640
in his life and stuff.
And that's an immense value

885
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:24,160
because.
Like that led to some

886
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:28,240
significant turbulence in my
life become transitioning from

887
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:33,000
youth to adult and having things
relatively come natural to me

888
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:38,160
and easy where I so, you know,
we all have regrets in life and

889
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:39,600
we think about these little
things we could have done

890
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:43,360
differently.
What I remember saying very

891
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:47,240
confidently for a stretch of my
life, if I'm not good at it, I

892
00:40:47,240 --> 00:40:48,920
don't want to do it.
Yeah, and I look.

893
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:51,880
I look back upon it.
How silly is that is to say

894
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:55,120
like, what a dumb ass.
That is such a silly thing to

895
00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:57,120
say.
And and I said it with my chest.

896
00:40:57,120 --> 00:40:59,200
Yeah.
And that like what a dumb ass

897
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:02,000
like.
You know, well, and I think it

898
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:04,960
goes back to the way, I don't
want to say it's the way people

899
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:07,240
are raised, but we don't know
any better.

900
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:10,760
Yeah, it like it's also it it
goes back to I think really the

901
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:13,800
personality type that you are at
a very young and impressionable

902
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:16,520
age.
And, and for me, I just, that's,

903
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,960
that's just, it was a domino
effect that never stopped going

904
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:25,000
for me.
And like, I, I don't think I,

905
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,040
honestly, I, I wouldn't, I
wouldn't be where I am today

906
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:29,120
without it.
Or if, or even I go back to my

907
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:31,680
first year at the Press Gazette
and, and I don't improve and I

908
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:33,040
just keep getting worse and
worse and worse.

909
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:33,880
I would have been out of the
job.

910
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:34,840
I would have been on to
something else.

911
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:36,440
I probably would have been a
history professor if I've been

912
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:40,040
lucky enough to be 1.
But I just like, I'd, if I'm bad

913
00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:42,000
at something, I don't
necessarily need to be the best

914
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:44,040
at it.
Like I'm not a good golfer, but

915
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:46,720
I keep trying.
Like, I, I like playing golf.

916
00:41:46,720 --> 00:41:49,320
So it's like, OK, well, I want
to be competent at it, or at

917
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:52,280
least respectable.
I think that's just the same way

918
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:56,080
I've approached my career.
It's like there's we don't you

919
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:59,760
have to callus yourself.
You have to afford yourself in

920
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:03,080
order to to be successful in any
route, any job that you do.

921
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:06,480
And if you don't do that, if
you're not willing to fail and

922
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,680
not willing to have error and
learn from them, I mean, that's

923
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:11,640
an important piece.
You can't just continually mess

924
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:13,120
up.
You have to be able to make the

925
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:16,360
corrections.
But once you do like you, you

926
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:18,360
touch the stove, you're not
going to do it again.

927
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:21,960
You know, like it's just you
figure out, OK, don't do that

928
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:23,360
anymore.
So yeah.

929
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:25,840
Yeah, tremendously good advice.
That's something I deal with a

930
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:27,880
lot in the classroom.
Obviously like with students.

931
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:31,720
I I'm, as you were saying that I
had a moment flash across my

932
00:42:31,720 --> 00:42:35,560
mind just the other day, very
strong student was in class and

933
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:38,360
she's very engaging.
She's great at communicating and

934
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:40,360
she's almost always right.
Like the things she says are

935
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:45,120
almost always gold.
And the other day in class, and

936
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:47,240
when I think about the timing, I
had heard her talking with

937
00:42:47,240 --> 00:42:49,280
another student about how she
was kind of struggling in

938
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:52,040
another class right now.
And that was a new feeling for

939
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:54,560
her.
And she said something in class.

940
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:56,880
And I'm a very heavily
discussion based person.

941
00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,800
Like we talked through things, I
want you to say wrong stuff and

942
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:01,400
we're going to talk about that's
where growth comes from.

943
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:06,520
She said something that, you
know, wasn't particularly right,

944
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:08,960
like it wasn't the direction the
answer needed to go.

945
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:13,080
And I, you know, I frame it
really softly, like I want you

946
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:14,480
to look at this in a different
way.

947
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:17,000
And immediately her demeanor
changed.

948
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:20,160
It was like just another
sprinkle on top of a heavy time

949
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:21,880
in life right now.
She was already feeling that

950
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:26,000
sprinkle it on.
And I could see like the light

951
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:30,480
dim a little bit.
And nurturing that thing is

952
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:35,080
really hard because in that
moment, that's a why in the road

953
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:37,720
for that person.
And it's do I give up or do I

954
00:43:37,720 --> 00:43:41,000
keep going?
And this is a great reminder

955
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:43,320
that I thought of an e-mail that
I wanted to send in that moment

956
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:45,880
that I didn't.
And I have to send because it's

957
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:49,440
an incredibly important one.
That is, can be the difference

958
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:52,440
between however you define
success.

959
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:56,080
It can be the difference between
getting to where you want to and

960
00:43:56,080 --> 00:44:01,000
not pivotal.
I, I was lucky in this way too,

961
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:04,600
because I grew up in a, in a
newsroom with a lot of older

962
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:07,600
folks and a lot of people that
were in their 40s and 50s and

963
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:11,440
some even their 60s.
And I don't want to use the word

964
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:16,520
bitter, but definitely hardened
by the industry, by the

965
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:18,640
business.
And there were plenty of times

966
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:21,080
that I got my butt completely
chewed out.

967
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:23,280
And I'm a teenager still at that
point.

968
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:27,240
That was important.
Like, and I'm not saying that

969
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:29,920
tough love always a soft
society, but I'm just saying my

970
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:33,520
own situation personally, that
was, that was critical because

971
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:36,280
it was like that taught me at
that age, if you can get through

972
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:37,760
all that stuff, you can get
through anything.

973
00:44:38,240 --> 00:44:40,560
And I and I don't, I don't
manage that way.

974
00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:44,440
I'm probably too much of the,
you know, the, the back stand

975
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:47,720
back kind of parent father.
I I give direction, but I'm not

976
00:44:47,720 --> 00:44:49,560
going to like stay on people
about it.

977
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:53,280
But for me, that that was really
important for what I felt it to

978
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:55,600
be important for my growth
because it was just.

979
00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:57,680
Yeah.
I'll never forget.

980
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:00,440
There was one time I missed the
deadline on Thanksgiving.

981
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:04,840
I was covering the Green Bay
Gamblers, and I thought I had

982
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:08,080
enough time to run.
Back then, we had newspaper

983
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:11,480
deadlines 10/30, 11:00.
Nowadays, they don't even really

984
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:13,280
have deadlines.
Like if you, if you're writing

985
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:16,360
for Thursday's paper, your
deadline I think now is, is it

986
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:19,240
Wednesday at 11 AM or Tuesday
night, something like that.

987
00:45:19,240 --> 00:45:22,280
It's like you're so far backed
up now with how things have gone

988
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:24,680
with print journalism.
But back then we would cover

989
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:28,200
games and you would write as
fast as you can and then you'd

990
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:29,480
get that in the paper for the
next day.

991
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:33,000
I thought I had a little bit
more time than I did writing up

992
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:36,720
the story because Thanksgiving,
we all go to print early because

993
00:45:36,720 --> 00:45:38,960
you got to get those Black
Friday ads in there and all that

994
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:42,400
fun stuff.
And I end up holding up the

995
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:46,600
entire printing press for like
Gannett, Wisconsin because I

996
00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:49,120
missed my deadline, didn't have
my copy because I tried to run

997
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:52,320
downstairs, get a quote from the
coach, and then run it back.

998
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:56,880
And I that that's about, that's
probably the second or third

999
00:45:56,880 --> 00:45:59,600
most scared I'd ever been in The
Newsroom because of just what

1000
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:02,800
the reaction was to it.
And to be fair to me, I did try

1001
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:04,800
to clear with my sports copy
editor.

1002
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:08,000
They told me I had enough time.
But when I found out I didn't

1003
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:10,560
have enough time, they were all
looking at me over it and.

1004
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:12,720
Falls on you, yeah.
It went in afterwards.

1005
00:46:12,720 --> 00:46:16,960
I kind of took my, you know,
comeuppance a little bit and and

1006
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:19,280
then I learned from it.
And, you know, then I was like,

1007
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:21,160
OK, well, just taught me a
lesson.

1008
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:23,480
Running game stories, make sure
I at least send something.

1009
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:26,200
And then if nothing else, we can
send another thing afterwards.

1010
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:29,360
But yeah, that that's cool.
And that's one thing I wish

1011
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:31,640
people are in journalism now or
in writing now.

1012
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:33,360
I wish they could experience
because like, the deadline

1013
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:35,120
writing is amazing.
Like, it's tough.

1014
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:37,240
It's difficult.
But like, you learn so much from

1015
00:46:37,240 --> 00:46:39,240
all that.
Everybody that calls himself

1016
00:46:39,240 --> 00:46:42,200
pressure motivated and kind of
the same thing, yeah.

1017
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:45,200
I love it like that's I always
tell people those stories don't

1018
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:46,560
need to be perfect.
They need to be accurate.

1019
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:48,360
They don't have to be perfect.
And there's too many people that

1020
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:50,680
try to be like perfectionist in
that type of moment.

1021
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:53,960
Oh man, like we're all just, you
just see me after a Packers Rd.

1022
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:56,840
game, like I'm on a bus trying
to like transcribe and write

1023
00:46:56,840 --> 00:46:58,760
this as we're getting back to
the airport because we always

1024
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:01,080
fly back right away.
I'm like, this isn't, I'm not

1025
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:03,520
saying everything I've ever
written is great, but it's like

1026
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:05,600
you just got to kind of survive
it sometimes, you know,

1027
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:07,960
depending on how the
circumstances you're sort of

1028
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:10,160
thrust into so.
Head above water.

1029
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:11,320
Yeah.
Yeah.

1030
00:47:11,720 --> 00:47:14,000
Well, that's awesome.
So the second route I was

1031
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:18,960
thinking about going is the
human element of writing and how

1032
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:21,640
it's changing and evolving and
your thoughts on it.

1033
00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:22,920
I'm sure you have thoughts on
that.

1034
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:26,640
Working in that industry, seeing
things change and shift.

1035
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:32,720
You know, you could phrase the
question in a lot of different

1036
00:47:32,720 --> 00:47:38,800
ways, but start with that.
What are your thoughts on the

1037
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:43,360
dynamic of keeping the human
element in the face of AI, in

1038
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:47,120
the face of shorter intention
spans that are headlines versus

1039
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:49,880
actually reading your story, all
that stuff.

1040
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:51,080
What are you?
What are your thoughts there?

1041
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:54,880
It's a balance, right?
And for me, it's a challenge

1042
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:57,840
that I really embrace.
I like sort of feeling like I'm

1043
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:00,360
the salmon going up the stream a
little bit and trying to keep

1044
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:03,720
people engaged and and wanting
to read stories and learn things

1045
00:48:03,720 --> 00:48:07,880
and and feel something at a time
in which I think we are just

1046
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:11,360
also programmed into
instantaneous information, short

1047
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:15,240
headlines, you know, quick
tweets like that type of thing.

1048
00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:19,680
No, I mean, like, do you still
want to be able to actually give

1049
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:24,440
context and background and
knowledge to things?

1050
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:27,320
And one of the main reasons I
came over to work for the

1051
00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:30,080
Packers in 16 is I felt like I
didn't have enough opportunities

1052
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:32,920
at the Press Cazette to be a
features writer, to do a lot of

1053
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:35,840
pursue a lot of things.
I wanted to because I had to be

1054
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:38,200
the news guy.
I had to, you know, if someone

1055
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:41,040
gets cut, someone gets traded,
somebody's hurt, I need to be

1056
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:42,240
the person that's jumping on
that.

1057
00:48:42,240 --> 00:48:43,960
I was the lead beat writer at
that point.

1058
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:46,760
That was my duty.
But I wasn't able to explore a

1059
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:48,960
lot of the big features that I
was interested in doing.

1060
00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:54,520
I, I really enjoy the NFLI,
really like the Packers.

1061
00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:58,880
But what I enjoy the most is
being able to introduce people

1062
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:01,720
to people to, to be able.
I, I know they always use like

1063
00:49:01,720 --> 00:49:03,120
the old get behind the face mask
thing.

1064
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:05,000
Yeah, you want to get behind the
face mask, but you also want to

1065
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:09,120
make sure people understand the
motivations of somebody, where

1066
00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:11,920
they've come from that got them
to this moment right now.

1067
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:13,720
Right.
Think all the years that you and

1068
00:49:13,720 --> 00:49:17,080
I had to live just to be here at
this very moment.

1069
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:19,440
There's a lot that went into
that and a lot of people that

1070
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:21,080
had to pour into you to make
that happen.

1071
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:25,160
I'm so that that is what I like
the most.

1072
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:30,480
I like getting to the center of
that and getting to know players

1073
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:32,800
over the years like you do a
feature like that, you only get

1074
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:36,920
to know people better and that's
what motivates me now.

1075
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:39,360
By the way, the the storytelling
mediums changed.

1076
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:42,400
It isn't always just going to be
a 4000 words feature anymore.

1077
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:45,840
Now it could be a 2000 word
feature with a 4 minute video

1078
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:48,960
that goes along with it or you
know, doing a project that

1079
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:51,240
there's a written element and a
video element to it.

1080
00:49:51,240 --> 00:49:53,960
Marrying those two concepts
together, that's actually kind

1081
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:55,480
of exciting.
That's sort of fun.

1082
00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:59,000
One thing that I think AI and
everything else won't be able to

1083
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:02,480
touch is that humanity side of
things and making someone feel

1084
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:04,360
something.
If I'm writing a feature, I want

1085
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:06,800
people to feel what I'm writing
about.

1086
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:10,440
I want them to be invested into
that person, into that story

1087
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:12,600
and, and go on that journey with
me.

1088
00:50:13,720 --> 00:50:15,960
The cool thing about the NFL,
the cool thing about the Packers

1089
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:19,000
is you have this massive
audience and people that are

1090
00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:23,160
just completely invested with
their every part of their soul

1091
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:25,320
into this team.
And then winning in the players

1092
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:28,360
and having success and trying to
project who the next big tight

1093
00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:30,760
end is going to be or which
defensive back is going to step

1094
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:32,120
up and have an 8 pick season for
them.

1095
00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:35,040
Like those type of things are
that that is what motivates a

1096
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:38,200
lot of people when they're
thinking about the team in July

1097
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:41,000
and training camp and what they
could become in six months from

1098
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:42,120
now.
Could they win a Super Bowl?

1099
00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:48,280
I love all of that and I want to
make sure that people understand

1100
00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:51,200
there's an actual human being
that goes behind that.

1101
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:55,040
And that aspect of it is what
that's what gets me out of bed

1102
00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:57,000
everyday.
I love talking about it.

1103
00:50:57,280 --> 00:50:59,240
I love explaining the game to
people.

1104
00:50:59,240 --> 00:51:02,920
But more than anything else, if
people aren't emotionally

1105
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:08,400
invested into my content, I
don't feel like I'm doing my

1106
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:10,320
job.
So I grew up like a pro

1107
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:13,120
wrestling fan too.
And I, I've always made this

1108
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:16,440
comment that I feel like
everybody that gets into feature

1109
00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:19,000
writing, maybe not necessarily
news writing, but feature

1110
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:22,320
writing, there literally should
have like a six week class on

1111
00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:25,720
pro wrestling and psychology.
Because you, you think about pro

1112
00:51:25,720 --> 00:51:27,680
wrestling, everyone's like, oh,
it's funny, whatever, it's, you

1113
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:30,560
know, not real.
Whatever you had, it's like a

1114
00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:32,920
play, it's like theatre.
You have to make people be

1115
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:34,840
emotionally invested.
You have to be able to have that

1116
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:37,680
suspension disbelief.
You have to earn it in order to

1117
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:40,480
do that.
And I just feel like that

1118
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:44,560
background in being in liking
that sort of thing, it made me

1119
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:46,480
realize the importance of
storytelling.

1120
00:51:46,720 --> 00:51:50,920
And that's, that's what I do.
Like I, I struggled with it at

1121
00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:53,200
times because I'm like, well,
what is my, what am I doing

1122
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:55,000
really right?
Like, what is the, what is the

1123
00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:57,840
good of this?
And I've had so many people in

1124
00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:01,280
my life talk to me about it.
Like you, a lot of times, the

1125
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:04,000
content you created, the topics
you discussed, that's, that's

1126
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:07,600
somebody's escape from a long
work day or like, you know, the

1127
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:11,080
struggles in their life, like
you are providing a resource and

1128
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:15,120
entertainment.
And because I'm not curing

1129
00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:18,880
cancer, like I'm not, I'm not
save anybody from a building

1130
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:22,800
that's on fire or being a police
officer, like put their life on

1131
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:24,200
the line.
Like I'm, I'm just a little

1132
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:29,960
writer, but if I can make people
appreciate their life a little

1133
00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:33,680
bit and and appreciate their
football team, and maybe when

1134
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:36,120
they do go to the stadium on a
Sunday afternoon, just enjoy it

1135
00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:39,160
that much more than then, I kind
of feel like I'm doing my job.

1136
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:42,320
I was going to say, yeah, you're
not curing the cancer, but

1137
00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:45,360
there's someone with cancer
reading your story that doesn't

1138
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:47,120
think about their cancer for 10
minutes.

1139
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:49,360
That's a value.
It's been important too because

1140
00:52:49,360 --> 00:52:51,040
we have this little thing called
the Insider Inbox.

1141
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:52,720
So we do AQ and A six days a
week.

1142
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:54,680
It is crazy.
I can't believe we do it.

1143
00:52:54,680 --> 00:52:57,880
But I actually took the job back
in 16 realized not realizing

1144
00:52:57,880 --> 00:53:00,240
that was a daily Q and AI
thought it was a weekly Q&A.

1145
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:03,640
So me and our other sport writer
together, we, we balance this.

1146
00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:06,880
We, we do, we alternate days.
So we have like a 20 question,

1147
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:10,760
2000 word Q&A every day.
And my first few years I did it.

1148
00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:13,440
I'm like, oh man, this is a
slog.

1149
00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:15,720
This is a lot of work in
addition to all the other things

1150
00:53:15,720 --> 00:53:18,240
I have to do on a given day.
But what happened over the

1151
00:53:18,240 --> 00:53:19,480
years?
You get to know some of those

1152
00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:22,040
people and then you get people's
kind of opening up to you a

1153
00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:26,600
little bit what they're going
through in life, illness, loss,

1154
00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:29,720
that sort of thing.
And feeling a sense of community

1155
00:53:29,720 --> 00:53:32,640
based on what you're writing,
like that hits hard.

1156
00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:35,920
Like that is like, I don't think
it, I don't think I deserve it,

1157
00:53:36,240 --> 00:53:40,720
but it's like, thank you.
Like, like I appreciate you.

1158
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:43,880
If, if, if there's, if I made
one minute of your day better by

1159
00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:46,480
something I wrote or by content
that we provided you.

1160
00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:52,480
Like that's, I think that beats
any raise, any promotion,

1161
00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:55,320
anything you could ever ask for,
you know, so.

1162
00:53:56,280 --> 00:53:59,480
That's awesome to think about.
I would have like that wasn't

1163
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:02,720
immediately apparent or like
that that wouldn't that's not

1164
00:54:02,720 --> 00:54:04,360
the first thing that pops to my
mind.

1165
00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:09,120
Like the why is important.
The why is powerful, but like

1166
00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:13,080
hearing you say all that, it's
it directly aligns with my drive

1167
00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:14,880
for the podcast.
It's all I'm trying to do.

1168
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:18,360
I'm trying to connect people
through other stories and we

1169
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:22,400
just our medium is different,
but the angle is the same.

1170
00:54:23,080 --> 00:54:26,160
That's fascinating.
So it's life it is and that's

1171
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:27,840
what makes people feel human,
right?

1172
00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:29,840
And that's what AI is not going
to replace.

1173
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:39,240
I have a question for you on
that being how effective and

1174
00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:47,200
tight I would describe it as and
good at PR at the that the NFL

1175
00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:52,280
is, is that is that like a
point?

1176
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:56,720
Point of contention is strong.
Do you struggle with that ever

1177
00:54:56,720 --> 00:54:58,840
in your job?
Because I'm sure there are times

1178
00:54:58,840 --> 00:55:02,120
if that is your driving
motivation, I'm sure there's

1179
00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:06,520
stuff that you know that people
would resonate with and move

1180
00:55:06,520 --> 00:55:08,520
people and achieve that.
Why?

1181
00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:11,160
But you can't do it.
Your hands are tied.

1182
00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:12,520
Yeah.
Is that accurate?

1183
00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:14,840
Yeah, and, and it's actually
goes back to just being a

1184
00:55:14,840 --> 00:55:17,000
reporter too.
I mean, there was stuff that

1185
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:19,360
you'd be Privy to that people
just don't want to share, they

1186
00:55:19,360 --> 00:55:22,200
don't open up about.
And you have to respect those

1187
00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:25,760
boundaries.
And I, I, I think the cool thing

1188
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:31,040
about what I do is, is that my
goal when I got hired in 16 was

1189
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:35,200
I wanted to improve
thepackers.com branding.

1190
00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:38,280
Like I wanted, I wanted people
to have a positive reaction to

1191
00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:40,800
it when they heard, you know,
packers.com.

1192
00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:44,040
And yeah, there's going to be
certain bridges that we aren't

1193
00:55:44,040 --> 00:55:46,480
going to cross and there's going
to be certain things that happen

1194
00:55:47,720 --> 00:55:50,120
in the public domain that that
we're not going to necessarily

1195
00:55:50,120 --> 00:55:53,280
venture down.
But like my goal at all times is

1196
00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:54,960
like, I'm never going to lie to
people.

1197
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:56,400
I'm never going to deceive
people.

1198
00:55:56,400 --> 00:56:00,280
Like I'm always going to stay
true to my principles, my

1199
00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:04,320
character, my integrity.
And then if there are difficult

1200
00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:07,560
topics, those are the days where
we have press releases to kind

1201
00:56:07,560 --> 00:56:09,960
of handle things, where there's
the days that, you know, we do

1202
00:56:09,960 --> 00:56:13,800
take the if it's an NFL related
matter, we take direction from

1203
00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:15,680
how the NFL is handling certain
things.

1204
00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:19,760
That that's probably where my PR
degree probably has come into

1205
00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:23,400
play a little bit more.
But I think the one thing I got

1206
00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:26,080
to give the Packers a lot of
credit for is I'm literally next

1207
00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:27,520
week, I'll be 10 years there
now.

1208
00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:32,520
And not once in all my 10 years
have they ever like come in and

1209
00:56:32,520 --> 00:56:34,560
said, this is what you're
writing, this is what you're

1210
00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:38,400
going to do.
I I think I know the boundaries

1211
00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:43,040
in terms of, hey, if all of our
media are kind of dogging on a

1212
00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:48,160
specific player or ripping on a
specific situation, I'm probably

1213
00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:50,120
not digging down that same
rabbit hole.

1214
00:56:50,120 --> 00:56:52,360
There's a lot of people already
saying that sort of thing.

1215
00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:55,080
But when you have a 53 man
roster, there's a lot of

1216
00:56:55,080 --> 00:56:56,720
different stories to tell.
There's a lot of different

1217
00:56:56,720 --> 00:56:59,040
people to talk about and there's
a lot of different things to do.

1218
00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:02,520
Like I mentioned early on, I
mean, one of the most difficult

1219
00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:06,040
seasons I covered was 2017.
You know, that was the year

1220
00:57:06,040 --> 00:57:09,800
first, where Ted Thompson ends
up leaving as the GM Dom Capers,

1221
00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:11,600
the defensive coordinator, is
let go.

1222
00:57:12,240 --> 00:57:14,240
And we turned to 2018.
Everything's OK.

1223
00:57:14,240 --> 00:57:15,400
Well, it's going to go a little
bit better.

1224
00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:17,400
And it it really does.
And it kind of gets worse.

1225
00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:19,560
And by December, Mike McCarthy
was let go.

1226
00:57:20,280 --> 00:57:22,400
And it were, there were some
difficult times there.

1227
00:57:22,680 --> 00:57:25,560
But I always go back to
something that a very good

1228
00:57:25,560 --> 00:57:27,960
friend of mine, Darren, Darren
Urban, who does the same exact

1229
00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:29,680
thing I do for the Arizona
Cardinals.

1230
00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:33,440
When I was leaving the paper to
go to the Press Gazette or I was

1231
00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:36,640
leaving the Press Gazette to go
to packers.com, I called him and

1232
00:57:36,640 --> 00:57:39,160
he was a newspaper guy too.
That made the move.

1233
00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:43,240
His paper just so happened right
after he was left, basically

1234
00:57:43,240 --> 00:57:45,720
went under just coincidentally.
He didn't know what was going to

1235
00:57:45,720 --> 00:57:48,840
happen that way, but it did.
And I had an hour and a half

1236
00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:51,400
conversation with them about,
hey, what do you think?

1237
00:57:51,480 --> 00:57:53,840
Like, is this smart?
What do I need to know?

1238
00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:56,400
Like, how is this going to go?
And he said to me, he's like,

1239
00:57:57,080 --> 00:58:00,880
Wes, there's going to be a day
where you are covering your

1240
00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:03,520
football team playing at
CenturyLink Field, Seattle, and

1241
00:58:03,960 --> 00:58:06,040
they're going to be down 56 to
nothing.

1242
00:58:07,360 --> 00:58:08,800
And you're going to have to
write a game story on it

1243
00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:10,040
afterwards.
You're going to have to go into

1244
00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:12,040
the locker room and talk to
people about afterwards, after

1245
00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:14,280
your team gets shut out, doesn't
put any points on the board.

1246
00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:17,120
And there's really not anything
positive to point to.

1247
00:58:17,760 --> 00:58:21,040
And when I was going through 18,
I thought back on that a lot.

1248
00:58:21,040 --> 00:58:22,800
I'm like, yeah, that he was
exactly right.

1249
00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:26,080
Like, you just have to know how
to handle those things.

1250
00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:28,240
And in those moments, you let
the players talk, you let the

1251
00:58:28,240 --> 00:58:30,520
coaches talk.
There isn't a lot of, like,

1252
00:58:30,520 --> 00:58:33,000
opining on my end about, oh,
what's wrong or this.

1253
00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:35,240
It's like, OK, let's just see
what people have to say about

1254
00:58:35,240 --> 00:58:37,480
this.
And actually at the end of the

1255
00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:39,120
day, Mike was like, Oh, I hate
that.

1256
00:58:39,120 --> 00:58:41,200
I, I love Mike McCarthy.
He's an awesome dude.

1257
00:58:42,360 --> 00:58:44,320
But that end up being one of the
seasons I probably had the most

1258
00:58:44,320 --> 00:58:46,400
fun covering the team because I
just, I told a lot of the

1259
00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:49,280
stories of the young guys that
end up getting opportunities,

1260
00:58:49,280 --> 00:58:52,200
the guys that came up from the
practice squad that played late

1261
00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:55,120
in that season.
And, and just talking, it became

1262
00:58:55,120 --> 00:58:57,000
less about football and almost
more about people.

1263
00:58:57,000 --> 00:59:01,160
So I know it's probably kind of
a wide-ranging answer to that

1264
00:59:01,160 --> 00:59:07,040
question, but I, I, I just think
as a reporter, as a writer, you

1265
00:59:07,040 --> 00:59:10,200
always go back to who you are in
terms of your character and, and

1266
00:59:10,200 --> 00:59:12,400
how you approach things.
And I'm a professional about it.

1267
00:59:12,880 --> 00:59:15,800
Not going to take cheap shots.
I'm going to do my best to paint

1268
00:59:15,800 --> 00:59:19,200
within those lines.
And, you know, if there's

1269
00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:21,480
certain things and challenges
that we have to attack and

1270
00:59:21,480 --> 00:59:25,000
approach, we do that just like
anybody else's job.

1271
00:59:25,120 --> 00:59:27,440
And then, you know, you move
forward.

1272
00:59:27,560 --> 00:59:30,120
So, and the thing about the NFL
too, is everything moves so

1273
00:59:30,120 --> 00:59:32,040
fast.
You know, it's very rare that

1274
00:59:32,040 --> 00:59:33,680
you end up, I mean, look at the
Green Bay Packers right now,

1275
00:59:33,680 --> 00:59:35,880
right?
I mean, Jordan Love, it seems

1276
00:59:35,880 --> 00:59:38,520
like yesterday, you know, they
were drafting him during COVID.

1277
00:59:38,800 --> 00:59:41,360
He's our longest tenured player
now they got two players.

1278
00:59:41,360 --> 00:59:43,920
Crazy.
Yeah, two players from before

1279
00:59:44,120 --> 00:59:46,760
2022.
That's so I mean, they're like

1280
00:59:46,760 --> 00:59:49,680
literally we're down to like,
was it 3 or 4 guys that actually

1281
00:59:49,680 --> 00:59:52,760
played with Aaron Rodgers?
So it it's, it's crazy how

1282
00:59:52,760 --> 00:59:54,840
quickly all that stuff can kind
of fly by.

1283
00:59:55,200 --> 01:00:02,480
Yeah, yeah, that's interesting.
I I have a shifting relationship

1284
01:00:02,480 --> 01:00:07,040
with the concept of PR.
Like there's, there's a really

1285
01:00:07,040 --> 01:00:15,640
fine line between Polish and the
value of the dust story, you

1286
01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:20,440
know, and like you can tell by
your work that you're like your,

1287
01:00:21,240 --> 01:00:22,960
your morals, your ethics, that
stuff.

1288
01:00:22,960 --> 01:00:30,640
You're not going to, you know,
blatantly deceive the like I

1289
01:00:30,640 --> 01:00:37,000
think of something like 30 for
30, like where they get a little

1290
01:00:37,000 --> 01:00:38,960
gritty, you know, and get a
little raw.

1291
01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:44,040
A lot of times, you know, it's a
it's always protect the shield,

1292
01:00:44,040 --> 01:00:46,800
right?
It's protect the shield and the

1293
01:00:46,800 --> 01:00:50,120
human element often times is the
gritty and raw and, and look how

1294
01:00:50,120 --> 01:00:52,160
well something like 30 for 30 is
received.

1295
01:00:52,160 --> 01:00:57,200
It's a huge thing.
And I just, I wondered if if

1296
01:00:57,200 --> 01:00:59,800
that was a thing, like there's
a, there's these things that

1297
01:00:59,800 --> 01:01:02,000
you're like, God, I wish we
could just share that because

1298
01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:06,320
people will love it or people
will resonate with this topic or

1299
01:01:06,320 --> 01:01:10,880
concept And it just, it stays
buried in the linger because

1300
01:01:11,240 --> 01:01:17,240
there's this potential of, you
know, if it's spun this way or

1301
01:01:17,240 --> 01:01:19,840
people take it the wrong way, I
don't know.

1302
01:01:19,840 --> 01:01:21,640
That's that's an interesting
thing for me.

1303
01:01:21,640 --> 01:01:24,800
Yeah, it's, and it's funny too,
like because we always end up

1304
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:27,120
hearing stories about things,
not just now, but even like

1305
01:01:27,200 --> 01:01:29,800
talking to old reporters about
things that have happened, that

1306
01:01:29,800 --> 01:01:31,480
things, stuff that gets
reported, stuff that doesn't get

1307
01:01:31,480 --> 01:01:33,840
reported.
And the, the little game that we

1308
01:01:33,840 --> 01:01:36,040
play, you know, with
information, it's just such a

1309
01:01:36,440 --> 01:01:39,200
such a unique thing and sourcing
and all that sort of stuff.

1310
01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:42,000
I remember I had, I had two
really important people with,

1311
01:01:42,000 --> 01:01:44,560
with Pete Doherty and Rob
Damoski were kind of my mentors

1312
01:01:44,560 --> 01:01:47,760
at the Press Gazette.
And they, I went from covering

1313
01:01:47,760 --> 01:01:51,720
like preps in college, like
small things where sometimes I'd

1314
01:01:51,720 --> 01:01:55,680
be the only person there or the
only person on the beat to the

1315
01:01:55,680 --> 01:01:58,480
NFL where it's like you kind of
had to learn how to handle

1316
01:01:58,480 --> 01:02:01,560
things And in the, the sourcing
and the levels that you go

1317
01:02:01,560 --> 01:02:02,920
through with all that type of
stuff.

1318
01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:06,480
The one thing that is cool
though, about like with the

1319
01:02:06,480 --> 01:02:09,600
Packers is, I mean, there's
times like in our, our Q&A, like

1320
01:02:09,600 --> 01:02:12,840
I'm me personally, I'm like, I'm
fervently against an 18 game

1321
01:02:12,840 --> 01:02:14,840
regular season.
I'm not a fan of it at all.

1322
01:02:15,560 --> 01:02:19,160
The NFL wants it right.
But like it's not like a thing

1323
01:02:19,160 --> 01:02:21,160
where anyone like gives me
problems about it.

1324
01:02:21,160 --> 01:02:22,560
Like I make it pretty well
known.

1325
01:02:22,560 --> 01:02:25,120
Like I I think there's a player
safety component to it.

1326
01:02:25,120 --> 01:02:29,400
I also think there is an aspect
of you can only have so much

1327
01:02:29,400 --> 01:02:32,040
dessert, like where it's like, I
think at some point we don't

1328
01:02:32,040 --> 01:02:37,920
want to push NFL fans into like
an over saturation like you.

1329
01:02:37,920 --> 01:02:42,320
Sometimes I think you can go too
far and once you cross those

1330
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:44,280
barriers, are you ever going to
be able to come back from them?

1331
01:02:44,280 --> 01:02:46,800
So, but then, yeah, there's a
there's a lot of different

1332
01:02:46,800 --> 01:02:50,720
issues the NFL has tackled over
the years and we just kind of

1333
01:02:50,720 --> 01:02:53,920
roll with the punches with it.
And yeah, PR is an interesting

1334
01:02:53,920 --> 01:02:56,480
thing, especially in today's day
and age and the shifting

1335
01:02:56,480 --> 01:02:59,640
landscape of it and, and the way
information is presented and,

1336
01:03:00,080 --> 01:03:01,760
and how all those things kind of
come into play.

1337
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:05,760
But yeah, again, I I've just
been really lucky in that like,

1338
01:03:05,760 --> 01:03:08,160
I don't, I don't feel like
there's like a veil behind me

1339
01:03:08,160 --> 01:03:10,640
that I'm kind of trying to keep
anything really protected from.

1340
01:03:10,640 --> 01:03:14,240
It's just a matter of like, I
think, how certain things are

1341
01:03:14,240 --> 01:03:16,320
probably presented.
That's awesome to hear.

1342
01:03:16,880 --> 01:03:18,520
Yeah.
I've wondered that about the

1343
01:03:18,520 --> 01:03:20,840
NFL.
I wonder everything finds its

1344
01:03:20,840 --> 01:03:22,080
tipping point.
Yeah.

1345
01:03:22,120 --> 01:03:25,600
The NFL hasn't yet.
And you know, the the old adage,

1346
01:03:25,600 --> 01:03:27,280
eat like a pig, get slaughtered.
Yeah.

1347
01:03:27,640 --> 01:03:31,320
When when does it happen?
I mean, we've seen people try to

1348
01:03:31,320 --> 01:03:35,280
build off the brand with spring
leaves and and different things

1349
01:03:35,280 --> 01:03:39,160
very unsuccessfully.
And there's, you know, there's

1350
01:03:39,160 --> 01:03:41,360
no one silver bullet answer to
why.

1351
01:03:41,360 --> 01:03:44,160
Yeah.
But there has there is a Cliff

1352
01:03:44,160 --> 01:03:45,680
somewhere.
And it kind of builds on what

1353
01:03:45,680 --> 01:03:47,640
you were talking about earlier
about how at the end of the

1354
01:03:47,640 --> 01:03:50,240
season everybody's ready for a
woos off for a couple minutes.

1355
01:03:50,840 --> 01:03:56,320
Like there's a point when that
comes if you try to push things

1356
01:03:56,320 --> 01:03:58,160
too far too.
Yeah, yeah.

1357
01:03:58,160 --> 01:04:01,000
And I, I think the NFL has a
really good thing going.

1358
01:04:01,000 --> 01:04:07,280
I I was a huge fan of the 32
teams, 16 weeks, 8 divisions,

1359
01:04:07,280 --> 01:04:10,280
four teams for division.
I mean that from a mathematical

1360
01:04:10,280 --> 01:04:12,680
perspective, you couldn't ask
for a better set up, right.

1361
01:04:13,600 --> 01:04:17,800
I, I will say I was wrong about
the the seventh playoff team.

1362
01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:21,040
I was really against that.
I like the idea with, you know,

1363
01:04:21,040 --> 01:04:26,200
the NFL being as physical as it
is to give a team a buy, 2 teams

1364
01:04:26,200 --> 01:04:28,120
a buy in each conference.
I felt like that was a true

1365
01:04:28,120 --> 01:04:29,400
advantage.
Like, I think it's one of the

1366
01:04:29,400 --> 01:04:31,280
things that's really hard about
baseball right now, right when

1367
01:04:31,280 --> 01:04:33,680
they start to increase the
playoff seats for baseball.

1368
01:04:34,040 --> 01:04:37,720
You're asking fans to pay for
162 games and then for a time

1369
01:04:37,720 --> 01:04:40,880
there was a win and get in or,
you know, best two out of three

1370
01:04:40,880 --> 01:04:45,120
or win and you have played like
that's a real small window to

1371
01:04:45,120 --> 01:04:47,640
decide something that has been
going on for the last 6-7

1372
01:04:47,640 --> 01:04:50,080
months.
And I didn't want the NFL to get

1373
01:04:50,080 --> 01:04:51,840
to that level.
Now, I'm not just saying I like

1374
01:04:51,840 --> 01:04:54,240
the seventh playoff see, because
the Packers have benefited from

1375
01:04:54,240 --> 01:04:55,320
it, from the.
Last three years.

1376
01:04:55,960 --> 01:05:00,000
But it does, I think now truly
give the regular season

1377
01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:03,480
conference winner an advantage
in addition to the fact that the

1378
01:05:03,520 --> 01:05:05,280
the wild card weekend.
You can't argue with it.

1379
01:05:05,280 --> 01:05:08,920
It it's it's it's been box
office for the NFLI.

1380
01:05:08,920 --> 01:05:11,480
Don't, I'm not a huge fan of the
Monday Night Football playoff

1381
01:05:11,480 --> 01:05:15,360
game, but you have an entire
weekend now that spans that you

1382
01:05:15,360 --> 01:05:17,440
you are owning so many different
markets and all you got to do is

1383
01:05:17,440 --> 01:05:20,080
just look at the the ratings at
the end of the season when they

1384
01:05:20,080 --> 01:05:23,960
give you the top 100 shows and
9394 of them every year at the

1385
01:05:23,960 --> 01:05:27,040
NFLI.
Think the league has done an

1386
01:05:27,040 --> 01:05:30,720
amazing job at taking something
that they have in the interest

1387
01:05:30,720 --> 01:05:36,280
they have in the live sports
star of society and being able

1388
01:05:36,280 --> 01:05:39,560
to capitalize on that and be
able to create those revenue

1389
01:05:39,560 --> 01:05:41,800
streams.
What I'm always fascinated by

1390
01:05:41,800 --> 01:05:44,960
and it's not exclusive the NFL,
it's every type of sports media

1391
01:05:44,960 --> 01:05:46,640
out there.
It's every type of really

1392
01:05:46,640 --> 01:05:51,200
entertainment.
Ave. is figuring out how far you

1393
01:05:51,200 --> 01:05:54,640
can extend that reach not and
not just international.

1394
01:05:54,640 --> 01:05:57,320
I'm talking about very you know,
NFL right now is pushing really

1395
01:05:57,320 --> 01:05:59,800
big a flag football, right.
I mean, you have, there's

1396
01:05:59,800 --> 01:06:05,960
different areas, you know, where
you look at, you know, Lays

1397
01:06:05,960 --> 01:06:08,640
chips, they have like 90
different types now, right.

1398
01:06:08,640 --> 01:06:10,480
OK, how far can we take this
thing?

1399
01:06:10,480 --> 01:06:14,480
And that's that's a fascinating
thing because you have to stay

1400
01:06:14,480 --> 01:06:17,240
ahead of the curve.
You don't want your sport to be

1401
01:06:17,240 --> 01:06:19,720
able to have all this momentum
and then lose that in sales.

1402
01:06:19,720 --> 01:06:23,560
There's always going to be that
push to to, to keep that going

1403
01:06:23,560 --> 01:06:27,560
and to build on it.
And yeah, I mean, it's it's been

1404
01:06:27,560 --> 01:06:31,560
a real high watermark now for
the NFL and, and seeing where

1405
01:06:31,560 --> 01:06:34,320
that goes 510 years from now is
going to be fascinating to

1406
01:06:34,320 --> 01:06:35,800
watch.
Yeah, I really will.

1407
01:06:36,200 --> 01:06:39,200
Yeah, I could talk about that
probably add nauseam to the

1408
01:06:39,200 --> 01:06:41,920
folks listening to that's fast
as from a marketing guy.

1409
01:06:41,960 --> 01:06:45,640
That's fascinating to see where
the line is consumer behavior

1410
01:06:45,640 --> 01:06:49,800
and why we do and act the way we
do and are either endeared to

1411
01:06:49,800 --> 01:06:51,880
something or eventually pushed
away.

1412
01:06:52,840 --> 01:06:55,640
Fascinating thing.
And it's at such a macro level

1413
01:06:55,640 --> 01:06:58,560
that often by the time it
happens, it's like an, oh, shit

1414
01:06:59,080 --> 01:07:01,440
happened.
It happened like when it's like

1415
01:07:01,480 --> 01:07:03,160
a stock market, like when does a
dip, right?

1416
01:07:03,160 --> 01:07:06,640
And but I'll tell you what, like
last year, we host the NFL draft

1417
01:07:06,640 --> 01:07:10,920
and one of the night, it was the
first night I was standing up

1418
01:07:10,920 --> 01:07:12,600
there before I went back down to
the we, we sit in the

1419
01:07:12,600 --> 01:07:15,080
auditorium, the media to turn to
cover all the picks when they

1420
01:07:15,080 --> 01:07:16,720
happen, because then they bring
out the GM, they bring out

1421
01:07:16,720 --> 01:07:18,280
scouts.
We'll get the picks on the

1422
01:07:18,280 --> 01:07:21,200
intercom system.
So my job responsibilities

1423
01:07:21,200 --> 01:07:23,240
didn't really change too much
even though the draft was here.

1424
01:07:23,880 --> 01:07:27,800
But I made it a point once it
started last year, I wanted to

1425
01:07:27,800 --> 01:07:29,960
go actually see what the sea of
people look like.

1426
01:07:30,360 --> 01:07:32,320
And I walked out on our third
floor.

1427
01:07:32,320 --> 01:07:34,880
There's like a little bit of a
balcony and like, you couldn't

1428
01:07:34,880 --> 01:07:37,160
find a pathway out there, right?
It was end up being what,

1429
01:07:37,160 --> 01:07:39,880
600,000 people over three days,
whatever the final statistics

1430
01:07:39,880 --> 01:07:42,920
were.
And all I could think about is

1431
01:07:43,800 --> 01:07:46,560
my God, and wherever these
people come from, whether it's

1432
01:07:46,640 --> 01:07:49,840
from Door County or Chicago or
Florida or however they got

1433
01:07:49,840 --> 01:07:54,800
here, like the amount of love
that they have for the sport and

1434
01:07:54,800 --> 01:07:59,000
for this league to go through
all of that, to come here for

1435
01:07:59,000 --> 01:08:03,000
this moment, yeah, the NFL is
very something very special.

1436
01:08:03,000 --> 01:08:06,520
And I give them a lot of credit
because they have been on the

1437
01:08:06,520 --> 01:08:08,440
forefront of all of it.
And there's a lot of people that

1438
01:08:08,440 --> 01:08:10,400
originally kind of raise their
eyebrows when they moved it out

1439
01:08:10,400 --> 01:08:14,320
of Radio City Music Hall, the
draft, and now you have half the

1440
01:08:14,320 --> 01:08:17,040
league, 2/3 of the league
clamoring to get it in their

1441
01:08:17,040 --> 01:08:18,080
city.
Genius.

1442
01:08:18,080 --> 01:08:20,120
Pittsburgh, how much they push
to get it there.

1443
01:08:20,600 --> 01:08:22,920
There were never been a Super
Bowl in Green Bay, but man, we

1444
01:08:22,920 --> 01:08:24,760
could host the draft.
We showed we could.

1445
01:08:25,200 --> 01:08:27,200
And then afterwards, I was
hanging out with some people at

1446
01:08:27,200 --> 01:08:31,040
the NFL at Lodge Kohler next to
Lambeau, and they were

1447
01:08:31,040 --> 01:08:33,279
mentioning like this was the
easiest draft we've had.

1448
01:08:33,319 --> 01:08:36,920
Like in terms of the access.
We shut down blocks, you know,

1449
01:08:36,920 --> 01:08:39,960
like, think about it like they
have all those trucks, all that

1450
01:08:39,960 --> 01:08:41,920
set, all that stuff.
They're they're going into these

1451
01:08:41,920 --> 01:08:45,080
big cities with that Green Bay.
Come on in.

1452
01:08:45,080 --> 01:08:47,319
What do you need?
You know, and it's just again,

1453
01:08:47,319 --> 01:08:49,720
it goes back to kind of what
this community is all about and

1454
01:08:51,439 --> 01:08:52,680
the love of football.
It's just.

1455
01:08:52,680 --> 01:08:55,680
I when you talk about feeling
lucky, like that's what I feel

1456
01:08:55,680 --> 01:08:57,800
most blessed by, like I, I was
born here.

1457
01:08:58,200 --> 01:09:00,479
Right.
And it's not just the cost of

1458
01:09:00,479 --> 01:09:03,560
living, like, actually to like,
have that football team, like,

1459
01:09:03,560 --> 01:09:06,200
just like sitting smack dab in
the middle of this thing that

1460
01:09:06,640 --> 01:09:08,520
only 30 cities have.
Like, wow.

1461
01:09:09,920 --> 01:09:13,600
Yeah, it's amazing.
Anytime I hear anybody even get

1462
01:09:13,600 --> 01:09:16,680
close to like, complaining about
something Packers related, I'm

1463
01:09:16,680 --> 01:09:20,160
like, do you know what we would
be or not be without the Packers

1464
01:09:20,160 --> 01:09:22,439
here?
Nobody would know what Green

1465
01:09:22,439 --> 01:09:24,920
Bay, WI is.
I mean, there's just and it's a

1466
01:09:24,960 --> 01:09:28,160
very special community.
We have awesome people here, but

1467
01:09:28,479 --> 01:09:30,200
the older you get, the more you
travel.

1468
01:09:30,520 --> 01:09:35,600
There's a thousand of these size
cities in America and it just so

1469
01:09:35,600 --> 01:09:39,960
happens that the little engine
that could up here just kept

1470
01:09:39,960 --> 01:09:45,479
going and I I never lost sight
of that even today as I still

1471
01:09:45,479 --> 01:09:48,880
drive to work like it.
I never take that for granted at

1472
01:09:48,880 --> 01:09:50,520
all.
Like just driving past Lamb and

1473
01:09:50,520 --> 01:09:54,080
being like just how special it
is, like you can you get down

1474
01:09:54,080 --> 01:09:55,600
Ashland or you get down
Lombardi.

1475
01:09:55,600 --> 01:09:57,920
You can let all that stuff you
got a lot going on in your life.

1476
01:09:57,920 --> 01:10:01,360
You can let things certainly
just flow through your head, but

1477
01:10:01,360 --> 01:10:04,680
then you pause for a second, be
like, this is insane.

1478
01:10:04,680 --> 01:10:07,560
Like this is crazy people.
This is a bucket list thing for

1479
01:10:07,560 --> 01:10:10,080
people to come to this town and
just see the stadium, let alone

1480
01:10:10,880 --> 01:10:13,640
whether it's just go there,
watch a game, work there, what

1481
01:10:13,640 --> 01:10:16,000
have what have you.
And then to see how it is

1482
01:10:16,000 --> 01:10:18,640
expanded.
Just I remember being a kid with

1483
01:10:18,640 --> 01:10:21,160
my dad, we didn't have, there
was no Brown County tickets yet

1484
01:10:21,160 --> 01:10:23,520
when I was little.
So like my dad and I, we would

1485
01:10:23,520 --> 01:10:27,320
try to like get to like a
preseason game, you know, 40

1486
01:10:27,320 --> 01:10:29,120
bucks or whatever you try to get
a ticket for.

1487
01:10:29,120 --> 01:10:31,200
And that was the coolest thing
in the world to me.

1488
01:10:31,200 --> 01:10:33,960
Like I remember this is
actually, I think after the

1489
01:10:33,960 --> 01:10:37,060
actually the renovation, but we
got tickets for one of the pre

1490
01:10:37,060 --> 01:10:40,560
season games when Tim coach was
here and you know, Farve played

1491
01:10:40,560 --> 01:10:42,680
however long he played for, but
then Tim coach is in there and

1492
01:10:42,680 --> 01:10:44,880
I'm like, this is pretty
freaking cool right now.

1493
01:10:44,880 --> 01:10:47,280
Like I don't know, I know this
thing's all meaningless and what

1494
01:10:47,280 --> 01:10:49,320
not, but this is fun that it's
working out this way.

1495
01:10:49,840 --> 01:10:54,360
And like it's just anytime I've
ever had a chance to be here in

1496
01:10:54,360 --> 01:10:57,480
that stadium, like it's special.
And the other thing I do too,

1497
01:10:57,480 --> 01:10:59,760
like when however the season
ends and there's been some tough

1498
01:10:59,760 --> 01:11:05,560
endings, but I always when the
season ends, I always go like 2

1499
01:11:05,560 --> 01:11:08,000
in the morning, just go sit in
the bowl for like 5 minutes and

1500
01:11:08,000 --> 01:11:10,280
I just stare at it because it's
like all the history of that

1501
01:11:10,280 --> 01:11:13,360
specifics plot of land, you
know, maybe not all the same

1502
01:11:13,360 --> 01:11:17,640
dirt anymore, but I mean like
that radius and this country,

1503
01:11:17,640 --> 01:11:20,360
all that history that's happened
in that spot since 1957.

1504
01:11:20,360 --> 01:11:23,200
Like that.
That's a historian to me though

1505
01:11:23,200 --> 01:11:24,760
too.
Like I, I love history.

1506
01:11:24,760 --> 01:11:28,040
So valid, though, because like,
you can't, you can't go to a

1507
01:11:28,040 --> 01:11:31,800
Packers game without talking
with someone who is checking it

1508
01:11:31,800 --> 01:11:34,600
off their bucket list.
Like most of the time you end up

1509
01:11:34,640 --> 01:11:37,760
buy them in the bleachers.
It's I, I always make it a point

1510
01:11:37,760 --> 01:11:39,560
to ask people where they're from
in it.

1511
01:11:40,000 --> 01:11:44,240
And you can't throw a stick
without talking to somebody that

1512
01:11:44,560 --> 01:11:49,760
flew here first time in Lambeau.
And they've got that kids smile

1513
01:11:49,760 --> 01:11:51,440
on.
And they're they've been waiting

1514
01:11:51,440 --> 01:11:54,360
their entire life.
It's insane to enter that thing.

1515
01:11:55,120 --> 01:11:57,040
Yeah, that's special moments,
dude.

1516
01:11:57,040 --> 01:12:00,760
You do that at the end of the
season because it's almost, you

1517
01:12:00,760 --> 01:12:03,880
know, we all have this ticking
timer in our head at times right

1518
01:12:03,880 --> 01:12:06,840
above how life drifts by without
us really knowing.

1519
01:12:07,680 --> 01:12:11,360
And at the end of every year it
it's got to be sit there and

1520
01:12:11,360 --> 01:12:12,880
think.
Another one's done, man.

1521
01:12:12,880 --> 01:12:15,640
Another, another one checked off
the calendar.

1522
01:12:15,640 --> 01:12:19,440
Yeah, yeah, and, and each one of
them are fun because like one

1523
01:12:19,440 --> 01:12:22,080
thing that's cool, like now with
me being a Packers employee,

1524
01:12:22,080 --> 01:12:23,840
like I actually get like tickets
now.

1525
01:12:23,880 --> 01:12:28,040
So like my dad and I, we went to
probably maybe 6 my entire life

1526
01:12:28,320 --> 01:12:29,960
and now he goes with my season
tickets.

1527
01:12:29,960 --> 01:12:33,200
So like that's it's like you
talk about like paying it

1528
01:12:33,200 --> 01:12:35,720
forward or paying it back.
Harvey want to rephrase it?

1529
01:12:35,720 --> 01:12:37,920
Like that's pretty cool.
Like my dad gets to go now bring

1530
01:12:37,920 --> 01:12:39,880
his buddies.
My mom will go to like one game

1531
01:12:39,880 --> 01:12:42,880
a year but she's.
Probably just like my son.

1532
01:12:42,880 --> 01:12:46,320
Works here literally yeah.
I do a pregame radio show on the

1533
01:12:46,320 --> 01:12:50,200
North End zone and my mom like
literally will just come and

1534
01:12:50,200 --> 01:12:51,840
like watch me do that and then
she's good.

1535
01:12:52,000 --> 01:12:54,760
She could leave then she's fine.
She was never the football fan.

1536
01:12:54,760 --> 01:12:56,760
I she, she was never the sports
one.

1537
01:12:56,760 --> 01:12:58,640
She she was the board game
person as a kid.

1538
01:12:58,640 --> 01:13:02,120
She never wanted to do any of
the sports stuff, but but my dad

1539
01:13:02,120 --> 01:13:03,840
like it's, it's awesome.
It's been a, it's been cool to

1540
01:13:03,840 --> 01:13:05,000
share those experiences with
him.

1541
01:13:05,000 --> 01:13:07,960
And and then, you know, my son,
the first time he got to go to a

1542
01:13:07,960 --> 01:13:12,000
game, like he's he's gone a
couple now and like, or family

1543
01:13:12,000 --> 01:13:13,400
nights to like that kind of
thing.

1544
01:13:13,400 --> 01:13:17,720
Like, yeah, that's special to be
able to actually kind of share

1545
01:13:17,720 --> 01:13:19,200
that with him.
It's always kind of hits me

1546
01:13:19,200 --> 01:13:20,680
though a little bit like
assuming I do my job

1547
01:13:20,680 --> 01:13:23,960
appropriately or I don't get a
new one, Like I'm never actually

1548
01:13:23,960 --> 01:13:25,520
going to be able to like go
watch a game with him.

1549
01:13:25,520 --> 01:13:28,200
That's kind of weird.
But like, like it's just just

1550
01:13:28,200 --> 01:13:31,040
because of, you know, game days
as that's one of my busiest

1551
01:13:31,040 --> 01:13:33,840
times for a season, you know, So
I've always thought about that.

1552
01:13:33,840 --> 01:13:37,800
I went like 7 years without even
realizing where my seats were in

1553
01:13:37,800 --> 01:13:40,800
the stadium.
And then finally like one time I

1554
01:13:40,800 --> 01:13:43,520
was doing a tour with my dad and
I'm like, hey, can you show me

1555
01:13:43,520 --> 01:13:46,200
where my seats are?
Because I haven't actually like

1556
01:13:46,200 --> 01:13:48,680
ever saddened them at all.
And then when he brought me down

1557
01:13:48,680 --> 01:13:50,680
there I'm like, oh, these are
actually pretty.

1558
01:13:50,720 --> 01:13:52,880
They they hooked me up.
These are pretty solid.

1559
01:13:53,280 --> 01:13:55,360
I'm thinking I'm going to be
like back up on the rail or

1560
01:13:55,360 --> 01:13:57,560
something like that.
Have all like the, the Miller

1561
01:13:57,560 --> 01:14:01,400
lights hanging out on the like
triangle pyramid right behind

1562
01:14:01,400 --> 01:14:02,400
him.
But no, he's like, he's

1563
01:14:02,400 --> 01:14:04,880
literally like decent seats.
I'm like, all right, nice.

1564
01:14:04,880 --> 01:14:06,800
Maybe I should be like charging
you for these or something like

1565
01:14:06,920 --> 01:14:08,000
that rather than just give them
to you.

1566
01:14:09,680 --> 01:14:11,560
He's he's cool.
That's funny as hell.

1567
01:14:11,560 --> 01:14:14,240
How old's your kid?
He's 88, second grader.

1568
01:14:14,600 --> 01:14:18,360
OK, wild.
Yeah, that's a that's a whole

1569
01:14:18,360 --> 01:14:21,040
nother part of life, right?
My my son has shown no

1570
01:14:21,040 --> 01:14:24,520
inclination towards sports yet.
Yeah, How old's he he's?

1571
01:14:24,520 --> 01:14:27,520
4 1/2 OK, cool.
Be 5 in September.

1572
01:14:27,520 --> 01:14:30,640
And I actually just talked about
this with the last guest too.

1573
01:14:30,640 --> 01:14:33,280
But like, I've always been big
into sports.

1574
01:14:33,280 --> 01:14:34,320
Love playing sports.
Love it.

1575
01:14:34,560 --> 01:14:37,400
And like, I'll talk with people
in there, like, all right, what

1576
01:14:37,400 --> 01:14:39,440
sports does he like?
Because it's a thing like with

1577
01:14:39,440 --> 01:14:41,560
certain relationships in your
life, you build them around

1578
01:14:41,560 --> 01:14:43,680
different things, right?
And I'm like, yeah, he doesn't

1579
01:14:43,680 --> 01:14:46,280
really like, doesn't really like
it so far.

1580
01:14:46,640 --> 01:14:50,520
And it, there's often like this
look like, like waiting for me

1581
01:14:50,520 --> 01:14:52,880
to say that I like detest to
that or something.

1582
01:14:52,880 --> 01:14:55,280
Yeah.
And it's like I actually kind of

1583
01:14:55,280 --> 01:14:57,600
look at as a, as a positive in
some ways.

1584
01:14:57,600 --> 01:14:58,320
It's great.
Yeah.

1585
01:14:58,880 --> 01:15:01,520
He, he like what he wants to do
with me right now.

1586
01:15:01,520 --> 01:15:04,080
I, I play guitar too.
And he he loves playing guitar.

1587
01:15:04,080 --> 01:15:06,400
Isn't that the best?
Yeah, no real right.

1588
01:15:06,400 --> 01:15:09,240
Yeah.
So like my wife, my son, they

1589
01:15:09,240 --> 01:15:11,080
could not care less about what I
do.

1590
01:15:11,120 --> 01:15:13,640
Yeah, Killian thinks it's cool.
I work at the stadium and he

1591
01:15:13,640 --> 01:15:15,240
likes coming on the tours like
he likes all that.

1592
01:15:15,440 --> 01:15:18,680
But he's not a football fan.
If you ever saw the Hot Quiz, we

1593
01:15:18,680 --> 01:15:21,000
are not football people.
We're not built like my dad

1594
01:15:21,000 --> 01:15:23,400
tried to play football.
I mean, he's he's my height.

1595
01:15:23,400 --> 01:15:25,040
What are you going to do with
that?

1596
01:15:25,040 --> 01:15:28,120
You know, nothing.
But you know what's really neat?

1597
01:15:28,120 --> 01:15:29,200
I'm.
I'm glad you brought the guitar

1598
01:15:29,200 --> 01:15:31,200
thing.
I'm a huge Formula One fan.

1599
01:15:32,200 --> 01:15:37,760
My son is a die hard Formula One
fan because of me because that

1600
01:15:37,760 --> 01:15:39,560
was my interest.
That's where we bonded.

1601
01:15:39,960 --> 01:15:44,320
So like Sundays, as many Sundays
as we can or as late Saturday

1602
01:15:44,320 --> 01:15:45,720
nights that we can.
Throughout the course of the

1603
01:15:45,720 --> 01:15:47,280
year.
We watch Formula One together

1604
01:15:47,400 --> 01:15:53,040
and I watch a lot of F1 crashes
on YouTube and F1 TV.

1605
01:15:53,840 --> 01:15:56,280
That's been the coolest thing
about him getting older now is

1606
01:15:56,280 --> 01:15:59,240
actually being able to shit when
you find the hobbies, the

1607
01:15:59,240 --> 01:16:01,640
commonalities.
For me and my dad, it was golf,

1608
01:16:01,640 --> 01:16:02,960
right?
It was football, like that kind

1609
01:16:02,960 --> 01:16:04,440
of thing.
Like we were, we enjoyed it, we

1610
01:16:04,440 --> 01:16:07,880
enjoyed sports, but he's really
into this Formula One thing.

1611
01:16:08,360 --> 01:16:10,480
That's cool.
So whether it's guitar, whatever

1612
01:16:10,480 --> 01:16:12,800
it is like that, that's Achilles
is an only child.

1613
01:16:12,800 --> 01:16:15,800
So it's like, that's the thing
where it's like, holy cow.

1614
01:16:16,120 --> 01:16:18,800
Like, yeah, sweet.
Yeah, you know.

1615
01:16:19,160 --> 01:16:20,480
Ribs going to be an only child
too.

1616
01:16:20,600 --> 01:16:22,200
We're we're done.
So he's going to be the only

1617
01:16:22,200 --> 01:16:24,000
one.
And that's exactly the way I

1618
01:16:24,000 --> 01:16:27,600
look at it.
Like anybody I've ever met that

1619
01:16:27,600 --> 01:16:31,160
was pressured as a kid to like
like something or do something,

1620
01:16:31,520 --> 01:16:34,920
they end up hating it.
So I'm never ever going to do

1621
01:16:34,920 --> 01:16:36,600
that.
Like, and hell, it's going to

1622
01:16:36,600 --> 01:16:38,760
save me a lot of money and stuff
throughout the years.

1623
01:16:38,760 --> 01:16:41,280
I might have to buy him guitars
instead of sports gear.

1624
01:16:41,560 --> 01:16:44,280
But, and who knows, maybe he
likes and he's only four, like

1625
01:16:44,280 --> 01:16:46,280
he's got all kinds of
exploration left.

1626
01:16:46,680 --> 01:16:50,840
But whatever it is, I just, I'm
think my lucky stars, like I'm a

1627
01:16:50,840 --> 01:16:53,960
serial hobbyist.
I'm interested in so many

1628
01:16:53,960 --> 01:16:57,160
different things that there's
going to be a thing, and it just

1629
01:16:57,160 --> 01:17:00,280
happens that up until this point
it's been books and music.

1630
01:17:00,280 --> 01:17:01,960
Yeah, that's what he loved.
Cool dude.

1631
01:17:01,960 --> 01:17:04,000
Let's play some books or read
some books, play some music.

1632
01:17:04,000 --> 01:17:06,400
Yeah, and I don't know how your
parents were with you, but like

1633
01:17:06,480 --> 01:17:08,760
one thing my dad was always
really good with me about is

1634
01:17:08,760 --> 01:17:10,080
like he never pushed me in
anything.

1635
01:17:10,080 --> 01:17:11,880
We tried stuff and if I liked
it, I liked it.

1636
01:17:11,880 --> 01:17:13,520
If I didn't, I didn't.
We moved on.

1637
01:17:13,920 --> 01:17:16,440
And like, I've kind of tried to
take that same route with him

1638
01:17:16,480 --> 01:17:20,440
and it it allows you one to have
a really good, you know, reach

1639
01:17:20,440 --> 01:17:23,120
on what potentially could, like,
you know, what your interest

1640
01:17:23,120 --> 01:17:25,360
might be.
But my father and I could not be

1641
01:17:25,360 --> 01:17:26,720
more different in terms of
people.

1642
01:17:26,720 --> 01:17:29,840
He's a dude that rebuilds like
antique Harley Davidsons.

1643
01:17:30,360 --> 01:17:35,160
I brought him to Pokémon the
movie in 1999 and he slept

1644
01:17:35,160 --> 01:17:36,840
through the entire thing.
OK.

1645
01:17:37,240 --> 01:17:41,000
Like, I've always been more of
like the nerd type, you know,

1646
01:17:41,000 --> 01:17:42,600
person.
He's been more like the

1647
01:17:42,600 --> 01:17:44,840
traditional like, I will fix
your car.

1648
01:17:44,840 --> 01:17:48,680
I will rebuild your car like
type of dude if I ever have an

1649
01:17:48,680 --> 01:17:51,920
issue with like a furnace he
knows exactly what to do and if

1650
01:17:51,920 --> 01:17:54,040
he ever has an issue with a
computer I know exactly how to

1651
01:17:54,040 --> 01:17:56,120
help him too.
I want to mention that does go

1652
01:17:56,120 --> 01:18:01,640
both ways, but that that's the
neatest thing is it does.

1653
01:18:01,640 --> 01:18:03,760
It doesn't have to be that or
every single thing falls in

1654
01:18:03,760 --> 01:18:05,520
like, no, it's, it's where do
you meet, right?

1655
01:18:05,560 --> 01:18:08,160
And I think that taught me a lot
about life and how to deal with

1656
01:18:08,160 --> 01:18:10,360
people too.
Absolutely, yeah.

1657
01:18:10,360 --> 01:18:13,520
It makes you more empathetic.
It makes you see things through

1658
01:18:13,520 --> 01:18:15,680
a different like because same,
same, exact same.

1659
01:18:15,680 --> 01:18:18,520
My dad is blue collar worker,
can fix anything, can build

1660
01:18:18,520 --> 01:18:21,240
anything out of anything.
And it takes me a lot of work to

1661
01:18:21,240 --> 01:18:24,440
like try to do that stuff.
Like I try to fix something in

1662
01:18:24,440 --> 01:18:27,840
my house and I'm like, OK,
YouTube mess up a couple times,

1663
01:18:27,840 --> 01:18:30,240
figure it out.
And my parents were both of

1664
01:18:30,240 --> 01:18:31,640
neither of them were sports
people.

1665
01:18:32,240 --> 01:18:36,920
But the part that matters is
they weren't sports people, but

1666
01:18:36,920 --> 01:18:39,600
they never missed a game.
They were still there.

1667
01:18:40,040 --> 01:18:43,400
They like it kind of like your
mom watching the pregame show.

1668
01:18:43,400 --> 01:18:46,360
They didn't give a shit about
the actual game.

1669
01:18:46,520 --> 01:18:49,240
They know they don't care.
They're just there to support

1670
01:18:49,240 --> 01:18:52,040
me.
And that does teach you a lot

1671
01:18:52,040 --> 01:18:55,520
about life and it sets you up to
do a lot of different things to

1672
01:18:57,200 --> 01:19:01,200
wow all the way to being a dad,
right and and trying to do the

1673
01:19:02,160 --> 01:19:03,440
try to find the right thing to
do.

1674
01:19:03,440 --> 01:19:06,240
It's never always right, but
trying to be good at it.

1675
01:19:06,360 --> 01:19:10,160
Yeah, and that and The thing is
need to is like, I think my mom

1676
01:19:11,040 --> 01:19:13,520
doesn't fully understand what I
do, but she takes a lot of pride

1677
01:19:13,520 --> 01:19:16,120
in it.
And like same thing with my dad.

1678
01:19:16,120 --> 01:19:18,320
Like they they're like they're
they're proud.

1679
01:19:18,760 --> 01:19:20,560
And I think for me, being an
only child, I was an only.

1680
01:19:20,560 --> 01:19:21,520
Child.
Oh, you were only me too.

1681
01:19:21,520 --> 01:19:22,680
Yeah, yeah.
Rock on.

1682
01:19:22,680 --> 01:19:24,880
Yeah, older I get, the more I
realize that was a huge

1683
01:19:24,880 --> 01:19:27,160
blessing.
Oh, yeah, siblings can be great,

1684
01:19:27,360 --> 01:19:29,160
but I, I didn't realize until I
got older.

1685
01:19:29,160 --> 01:19:31,240
It can't always be great.
You know, sometimes it can be

1686
01:19:31,240 --> 01:19:34,320
real sticky.
But when I was younger, I always

1687
01:19:34,320 --> 01:19:35,800
wanted someone to, you know,
someone to play with.

1688
01:19:35,800 --> 01:19:38,400
And I think it in the long run,
I think that helped me with a

1689
01:19:38,400 --> 01:19:41,000
lot of my creativity and my
imagination because it was a lot

1690
01:19:41,000 --> 01:19:43,840
of myself.
But yeah, for me being their

1691
01:19:43,840 --> 01:19:46,080
only child and then and then
fortunate enough that I was able

1692
01:19:46,080 --> 01:19:47,840
to actually stay here like they
didn't have to.

1693
01:19:47,840 --> 01:19:51,560
I didn't go to like Chicago or
East Coast, West Coast or

1694
01:19:51,560 --> 01:19:53,000
anything like that where they
had to come and find me.

1695
01:19:53,000 --> 01:19:55,840
Like I'm, I live, I live 2 miles
away from my parents.

1696
01:19:55,840 --> 01:19:58,480
So it's like pretty good, pretty
good gig.

1697
01:19:58,560 --> 01:20:01,000
Yeah, I raid.
I still raid, you know, 38 years

1698
01:20:01,000 --> 01:20:02,680
on, I'm still raiding their
fridge every once in a while.

1699
01:20:04,000 --> 01:20:05,240
Dang, you're 38 too.
Me too.

1700
01:20:05,240 --> 01:20:10,040
Yeah, man, that's I've had
people has said a lot to me in

1701
01:20:10,040 --> 01:20:12,440
my life and I never, I never had
that feeling.

1702
01:20:12,440 --> 01:20:15,600
I never had the feeling of like
wishing I had someone to play

1703
01:20:15,600 --> 01:20:17,080
with.
And I, I've never thought about

1704
01:20:17,080 --> 01:20:19,600
it through that lens about how
that's advantage me in my life

1705
01:20:19,600 --> 01:20:24,800
because I seldom feel lonely.
No, I'm great with it yeah like

1706
01:20:24,800 --> 01:20:27,720
I, I think technically on my
Myers Briggs, I, I definitely

1707
01:20:27,720 --> 01:20:31,720
skewed towards it being
extroverted, but I think I I'm

1708
01:20:31,720 --> 01:20:33,680
like one of those guys that can
be extroverted, but the needs

1709
01:20:33,680 --> 01:20:36,520
like to recharge like I got to I
got to bring the Tesla back into

1710
01:20:36,520 --> 01:20:39,400
the electrical, you know, band
for a little bit and like get

1711
01:20:39,400 --> 01:20:40,880
myself back to where I need to
be.

1712
01:20:41,120 --> 01:20:45,280
But I I that I love it like I
love AI, love a busy household.

1713
01:20:45,280 --> 01:20:47,080
I love hearing my kid laughing,
everything like that.

1714
01:20:47,080 --> 01:20:49,360
But I wake up in the morning,
it's quiet.

1715
01:20:49,360 --> 01:20:50,400
It ain't the worst thing in the
world.

1716
01:20:50,560 --> 01:20:52,600
It's like I there's something
about that that I think

1717
01:20:52,600 --> 01:20:55,920
sometimes it's like Zen.
Yeah, and you're certainly

1718
01:20:55,920 --> 01:20:57,760
right.
I've seen a lot of relationship

1719
01:20:58,080 --> 01:21:01,040
sibling relationships go a bit
wayward.

1720
01:21:01,040 --> 01:21:04,800
Yeah, yeah.
Not everybody's got their own

1721
01:21:04,800 --> 01:21:07,520
thing.
And there's some I know my wife

1722
01:21:07,520 --> 01:21:09,640
has a great relationship with
her sisters and stuff, but like

1723
01:21:09,640 --> 01:21:13,000
I know sometimes like the way
things can go and how

1724
01:21:13,000 --> 01:21:14,800
complicated family stuff can
get, but.

1725
01:21:14,800 --> 01:21:16,520
It is funny watching them
communicate.

1726
01:21:16,520 --> 01:21:18,240
It is.
It is interesting watching

1727
01:21:18,240 --> 01:21:21,200
siblings communicate as a person
without siblings.

1728
01:21:21,200 --> 01:21:23,320
Yeah.
Because it's a whole different

1729
01:21:23,600 --> 01:21:27,560
dynamic, Yeah, of conversation
and just seeing how they

1730
01:21:27,560 --> 01:21:30,800
navigate and operate around each
other I think is fascinating.

1731
01:21:30,800 --> 01:21:32,800
I don't know of how you felt
about this when you had a kiddo,

1732
01:21:32,800 --> 01:21:35,360
but like, I think that's the
neatest thing about on my end.

1733
01:21:35,360 --> 01:21:37,760
Maybe it's only my perspective
on it, but when I when I we had

1734
01:21:38,000 --> 01:21:40,520
kill Killian.
You call him.

1735
01:21:40,520 --> 01:21:41,680
Kill let's.
I call him Kill.

1736
01:21:41,680 --> 01:21:44,600
Yeah, I love that.
Or Killy, but sometimes Killy

1737
01:21:44,600 --> 01:21:47,280
sounds a little too.
I'm like, yeah, I'm A1 syllable

1738
01:21:47,280 --> 01:21:49,120
person.
So I guess I could call him Ian.

1739
01:21:49,120 --> 01:21:50,360
What's up?
Kill is what it is.

1740
01:21:50,400 --> 01:21:54,000
Yeah, I've done that.
But what was cool about it is

1741
01:21:54,000 --> 01:21:56,400
that I didn't get to experience
by having a sibling or younger

1742
01:21:56,400 --> 01:22:00,560
sibling is when he came into the
world, it's like, oh, man, like

1743
01:22:01,040 --> 01:22:03,600
this is a little human.
It's not just that I created

1744
01:22:03,680 --> 01:22:07,160
this little human.
It's that my mom and dad were

1745
01:22:07,160 --> 01:22:09,880
here well before I got here, my
aunts, uncles, grandparents, all

1746
01:22:09,880 --> 01:22:12,600
that type of stuff.
I actually found somebody now

1747
01:22:12,920 --> 01:22:15,600
that is younger than me that is
brought into this world because

1748
01:22:15,600 --> 01:22:18,720
of me, but is now my person
like.

1749
01:22:18,800 --> 01:22:21,240
And I think that's where if I
would had a sibling, I probably

1750
01:22:21,240 --> 01:22:24,360
would have picked up on that
earlier where it's like people

1751
01:22:24,360 --> 01:22:27,560
come into this world and yeah,
you have friends and things like

1752
01:22:27,560 --> 01:22:31,000
that, but there is something
different when it's like it is

1753
01:22:31,000 --> 01:22:34,360
you, you know, and, and I think
that's been really a neat

1754
01:22:34,360 --> 01:22:38,720
experience for me, like actually
being like, oh, dude, like 10

1755
01:22:38,720 --> 01:22:40,960
years ago, this little dude was
not here.

1756
01:22:41,000 --> 01:22:44,040
But now it's like, this is like
my best friend, you know, this

1757
01:22:44,040 --> 01:22:46,400
is the guy that I want to, like,
spend all my time with here and,

1758
01:22:46,800 --> 01:22:50,800
and do things with.
But yeah, yeah, it's, it's been

1759
01:22:50,800 --> 01:22:52,520
fun.
Yeah, it's a trip.

1760
01:22:53,400 --> 01:22:59,560
It's a trip like you don't you
never force change so quickly as

1761
01:22:59,560 --> 01:23:01,920
happens when they come out.
And it's like I couldn't even

1762
01:23:01,920 --> 01:23:05,360
cut the umbilical cord.
I was overcome with emotion.

1763
01:23:05,360 --> 01:23:10,760
I couldn't even move.
I was like I was tears pouring

1764
01:23:10,760 --> 01:23:13,360
down my face.
And I remember the nurse like

1765
01:23:14,520 --> 01:23:17,480
going to hand me the scissors
and I couldn't like I'm I'm a

1766
01:23:17,480 --> 01:23:19,160
pretty gregarious like extrovert
too.

1767
01:23:19,600 --> 01:23:22,280
And I couldn't even get out of
word, like all I could do was.

1768
01:23:23,760 --> 01:23:27,520
I think I made a lot of sounds.
I, I, I didn't cry a lot, but I

1769
01:23:27,520 --> 01:23:29,200
made a lot of.
I'm guessing if someone would

1770
01:23:29,200 --> 01:23:31,240
have been throwing like a GoPro
on me, it would have been like a

1771
01:23:31,240 --> 01:23:34,480
lot You, you watch those videos
on Instagram, Like it would have

1772
01:23:34,480 --> 01:23:38,240
been a lot of that going on.
But I, I loved it.

1773
01:23:38,240 --> 01:23:40,200
It, it was, it's the coolest
thing.

1774
01:23:40,240 --> 01:23:42,960
Yeah.
And yeah, yeah, it's awesome.

1775
01:23:43,240 --> 01:23:44,480
Yeah.
All right.

1776
01:23:44,480 --> 01:23:46,720
Well, I got to wait.
I want to wrap up kind of a

1777
01:23:47,040 --> 01:23:50,600
roundabout way, not something I
do very much, but I have to try

1778
01:23:50,600 --> 01:23:53,320
to.
I have to try to selfishly clip

1779
01:23:53,320 --> 01:23:56,360
farm with you because I don't
know when my next opportunity is

1780
01:23:56,360 --> 01:23:58,000
going to be.
I am.

1781
01:23:59,480 --> 01:24:02,400
I don't know where I land in the
spectrum of Packer fans now

1782
01:24:02,400 --> 01:24:05,840
because people are weird, but I
am a massive Aaron Rodgers fan.

1783
01:24:06,160 --> 01:24:12,120
Like I love Aaron Rodgers, and
throughout the years it's been

1784
01:24:12,120 --> 01:24:14,200
fascinating.
Back to the PR thing actually,

1785
01:24:14,200 --> 01:24:18,640
to see the way like the
different angles people have

1786
01:24:18,640 --> 01:24:24,280
tried to paint on him and
portray him as and like the we

1787
01:24:24,560 --> 01:24:26,160
like.
I know the vast majority of them

1788
01:24:26,160 --> 01:24:31,440
aren't true in all directions.
Like what is your experience

1789
01:24:31,440 --> 01:24:34,360
with Aaron?
I I love Aaron and I really

1790
01:24:34,360 --> 01:24:37,640
enjoyed my time covering him.
I understand how things went at

1791
01:24:37,640 --> 01:24:41,520
the end for him and Green Bay,
but he no, again, I don't know

1792
01:24:41,520 --> 01:24:45,160
what he thinks of me, but he he
could not have been better to me

1793
01:24:45,160 --> 01:24:47,360
at every turn, especially.
And I made that transition to

1794
01:24:47,360 --> 01:24:49,880
packers.com.
And I've always said this, I, I

1795
01:24:49,880 --> 01:24:53,920
think if you covered Aaron
Rodgers every single day and you

1796
01:24:53,920 --> 01:24:57,560
are around the football team,
all those sort of things, you,

1797
01:24:57,640 --> 01:24:59,640
you have a pretty deep
understanding, not necessarily

1798
01:24:59,640 --> 01:25:01,680
who he is away from the field,
but you always knew who you're

1799
01:25:01,680 --> 01:25:04,960
dealing with in terms of the
personality and how he, how he

1800
01:25:04,960 --> 01:25:07,280
was giving with his time.
And I think he's a really

1801
01:25:07,280 --> 01:25:09,600
interesting case too.
And I think he's talked about

1802
01:25:09,600 --> 01:25:12,200
this in the past where there's
probably some stuff in him

1803
01:25:12,200 --> 01:25:14,280
that's more introverted than
extroverted.

1804
01:25:14,280 --> 01:25:17,800
I think sometimes that's that
can lead to how he gets painted

1805
01:25:17,800 --> 01:25:21,880
in certain lights.
But he, he's an incredibly well

1806
01:25:21,880 --> 01:25:26,760
meaning dude who I felt always
like he's one of the very few,

1807
01:25:26,760 --> 01:25:29,160
there's, there's very few of
these types of people where you

1808
01:25:29,160 --> 01:25:33,520
can go in with a particular
topic and he's going to add to

1809
01:25:33,520 --> 01:25:35,520
that.
You can't do that with

1810
01:25:35,520 --> 01:25:38,000
everybody, especially in today's
day and age with people being

1811
01:25:38,000 --> 01:25:39,880
careful what they're going to
say or how they're going to say

1812
01:25:39,880 --> 01:25:41,920
it.
You could go in with any topic,

1813
01:25:41,920 --> 01:25:43,840
any part of the offense, any
part of the defense.

1814
01:25:43,840 --> 01:25:47,560
Another player we had an
opportunity to talk with them

1815
01:25:47,560 --> 01:25:50,680
with, they set up a Zoom call in
in Pittsburgh before they played

1816
01:25:50,680 --> 01:25:53,600
back in October.
And the the Green Bay media had

1817
01:25:53,600 --> 01:25:55,200
a chance to talk to him for like
15 minutes.

1818
01:25:55,200 --> 01:25:58,920
And, you know, I asked him about
Keyshawn Nixon because earlier

1819
01:25:58,920 --> 01:26:01,560
in the day I've been talking to
Keyshawn about his experience.

1820
01:26:01,560 --> 01:26:03,600
He's one of the few guys that
had played with Aaron at that

1821
01:26:03,600 --> 01:26:07,800
point and gave a really good
story about how, hey, yeah, we

1822
01:26:07,800 --> 01:26:09,920
always want to hug me.
He's like, I, I and I don't let

1823
01:26:09,920 --> 01:26:12,280
anybody hug me, but I, I let, I
let Aaron hug me.

1824
01:26:12,720 --> 01:26:17,680
And then I go and I, I, I before
I could even get out the last.

1825
01:26:17,680 --> 01:26:22,360
And on Nixon, Aaron goes, did
you mention that I hugged him

1826
01:26:22,360 --> 01:26:23,920
all that?
I hugged him a lot.

1827
01:26:24,400 --> 01:26:26,440
And I'm like, yeah, yeah, he
did.

1828
01:26:26,480 --> 01:26:28,640
And then he proceeded to give a
great answer on just just their

1829
01:26:28,640 --> 01:26:32,120
relationship and who he is.
And I, I know a lot of people,

1830
01:26:33,000 --> 01:26:36,000
some of the people I'm closest
to, players that I've covered,

1831
01:26:37,520 --> 01:26:40,960
absolutely adore him.
And I think there were certain

1832
01:26:40,960 --> 01:26:44,760
aspects of his history and off
the field, on the field,

1833
01:26:44,760 --> 01:26:47,240
whatever it was, I just think
the way that he put himself out

1834
01:26:47,240 --> 01:26:49,040
there once he finally start
doing that, cuz he didn't do

1835
01:26:49,040 --> 01:26:53,360
that early in his career.
But once that happened, I think

1836
01:26:54,000 --> 01:26:57,440
what ended up being proven right
is some of the reasons why Aaron

1837
01:26:57,440 --> 01:27:00,160
didn't put himself out there
initially.

1838
01:27:00,480 --> 01:27:04,120
Because when that is there, it's
how do people take your

1839
01:27:04,120 --> 01:27:06,040
celebrity?
How do they take your stardom?

1840
01:27:06,440 --> 01:27:09,480
How do they take what you say
and how do they generate

1841
01:27:09,640 --> 01:27:11,720
interest off of that?
I'm not just saying clicks.

1842
01:27:11,720 --> 01:27:13,560
I'm not just saying money.
I'm not saying any of that type

1843
01:27:13,560 --> 01:27:15,440
of stuff.
I'm just talking about when you

1844
01:27:15,440 --> 01:27:20,080
have that type of cachet with
your name, you're going to be in

1845
01:27:20,080 --> 01:27:23,600
the public conversation if
you're saying things that that

1846
01:27:23,600 --> 01:27:25,640
people are going to gravitate
towards.

1847
01:27:25,640 --> 01:27:29,840
So I, I had a great experience
covering our Rodgers and it, it

1848
01:27:29,840 --> 01:27:33,480
was really cool.
I'm I'm glad it it feels like

1849
01:27:33,640 --> 01:27:36,960
bygones have been left as
bygones and we've moved forward

1850
01:27:36,960 --> 01:27:39,520
with it, not only just with him
and the organization.

1851
01:27:39,520 --> 01:27:41,800
I think him and Mike McCarthy.
I think Mike and the

1852
01:27:41,800 --> 01:27:44,760
organization like it just feels
like everything is in such a

1853
01:27:44,760 --> 01:27:46,960
better place.
And the one last thing I'll say

1854
01:27:46,960 --> 01:27:50,680
too is for As for as difficult
as things got, not difficult,

1855
01:27:51,520 --> 01:27:56,400
but for as ugly as a turn for a
minute with like Brett Favre and

1856
01:27:56,840 --> 01:28:01,480
and and the Packers back in the
mid 2010, you know, mid 2000

1857
01:28:01,480 --> 01:28:05,160
tens.
I never thought he would ever

1858
01:28:05,160 --> 01:28:07,600
get to that level and it and it
didn't get that level with Aaron

1859
01:28:07,600 --> 01:28:10,280
because I I felt like at the end
of the day that there was a

1860
01:28:10,280 --> 01:28:14,200
professionalism there between
all those parties, that they

1861
01:28:14,200 --> 01:28:17,840
understood what everybody meant
to each other.

1862
01:28:17,920 --> 01:28:20,840
And maybe that was based someone
on how things ended with with

1863
01:28:20,840 --> 01:28:22,920
Brett.
But also I just think it's the

1864
01:28:22,920 --> 01:28:25,840
type of dude that Aaron is And
and he's an incredibly this

1865
01:28:25,840 --> 01:28:27,680
gets, it's almost become a
cliche at this point.

1866
01:28:27,680 --> 01:28:30,200
But I mean, he's probably one of
the most intelligent football

1867
01:28:30,200 --> 01:28:32,200
players that's ever lived.
I'm not even talking about how

1868
01:28:32,200 --> 01:28:34,880
he plays the game.
I'm talking about what his

1869
01:28:34,880 --> 01:28:39,240
knowledge base that his brain.
I mean, like the guy, I, I, I

1870
01:28:39,240 --> 01:28:40,600
don't have a photographic
memory.

1871
01:28:40,600 --> 01:28:43,880
Like I can remember stuff and
you can bring me back to old

1872
01:28:43,880 --> 01:28:46,080
games and show me the box score,
show me some clips and then

1873
01:28:46,080 --> 01:28:47,840
everything comes back.
But I can't just, I'll pull it

1874
01:28:47,840 --> 01:28:50,200
out.
You can ask Aaron about some

1875
01:28:50,200 --> 01:28:53,520
random play in a practice at
training camp in 2012 and he's

1876
01:28:53,520 --> 01:28:55,240
going to be able to give you the
blow by blow on it.

1877
01:28:55,240 --> 01:28:59,200
Like that's very rare.
So yeah, I'm thankful for my

1878
01:28:59,200 --> 01:29:00,720
time covering him.
I ended up getting him from

1879
01:29:00,720 --> 01:29:04,920
what, 2012 to I got 10 years
with him until 22.

1880
01:29:04,920 --> 01:29:08,000
And yeah, it was, it made me a
better reporter, maybe a better

1881
01:29:08,000 --> 01:29:11,600
writer.
And, you know, his voice, you

1882
01:29:11,600 --> 01:29:14,640
know, helped me in crafting a
lot of stories I'm very, very

1883
01:29:14,640 --> 01:29:17,160
proud of.
Yeah, that's awesome to hear,

1884
01:29:17,160 --> 01:29:20,000
man.
I because like, unlike a lot of

1885
01:29:20,000 --> 01:29:23,640
Packer fans, I think like my, my
fandom of him isn't just because

1886
01:29:23,640 --> 01:29:25,400
he brought us a bunch of success
on the field.

1887
01:29:26,240 --> 01:29:29,560
I share a lot of similar
sentiments about life with

1888
01:29:29,560 --> 01:29:32,240
Aaron.
Like I, I, I loved that he

1889
01:29:32,240 --> 01:29:35,040
became comfortable sharing like
his ayahuasca journey.

1890
01:29:35,040 --> 01:29:40,040
And like, I, I agree with you,
though, like that was that

1891
01:29:40,040 --> 01:29:43,680
reservation that he had probably
was with cause.

1892
01:29:43,680 --> 01:29:48,960
And we saw it play out about
how, you know, they're close

1893
01:29:48,960 --> 01:29:52,280
minded is easy to find and judge
mental is easy to find.

1894
01:29:52,320 --> 01:29:55,000
And then when it comes with the
cachet you talked about, about

1895
01:29:55,000 --> 01:29:59,080
like, oh, and if we add on top
of it, everybody knows this

1896
01:29:59,080 --> 01:30:02,880
guy's name already.
It's it, it, you know, it can

1897
01:30:02,880 --> 01:30:06,800
lead that direction.
And I, I just, I don't know, I,

1898
01:30:07,320 --> 01:30:10,400
I don't like when a Packer fan
disparages Aaron's name or

1899
01:30:10,400 --> 01:30:11,880
something because it's just
like, man.

1900
01:30:11,920 --> 01:30:14,760
But like back to the human
element thing that we were

1901
01:30:14,760 --> 01:30:17,920
actually talking about earlier.
It's been what, 18 years of his

1902
01:30:17,920 --> 01:30:19,600
life in game Bay, something like
that.

1903
01:30:19,800 --> 01:30:27,880
And that that is a that's a gift
that he gave to folks to because

1904
01:30:28,000 --> 01:30:31,600
it doesn't come without effect
and it doesn't come without

1905
01:30:31,600 --> 01:30:34,400
ramifications.
And sure, he made a lot of money

1906
01:30:34,400 --> 01:30:35,560
doing it, whatever.
What's money?

1907
01:30:35,560 --> 01:30:39,720
Who cares?
But just I find it always so

1908
01:30:39,720 --> 01:30:44,640
refreshing hearing him speak so
seemingly authentically.

1909
01:30:45,280 --> 01:30:48,160
And my degrees of separation.
I'm probably never going to get

1910
01:30:48,160 --> 01:30:52,120
a chance to meet Aaron Rodgers,
but like my sentiment towards

1911
01:30:52,120 --> 01:30:56,600
him, I just can't see changing.
And I, I, I had to try to clip

1912
01:30:56,600 --> 01:31:02,080
farm to someone that was closer
to it to try to, you know, find

1913
01:31:02,080 --> 01:31:05,040
the either poke holes in it or
reinforce, you know.

1914
01:31:05,240 --> 01:31:08,000
One, one thing I really wish and
and this is just, it'll never

1915
01:31:08,000 --> 01:31:10,240
happen.
There's just you can't have a

1916
01:31:10,240 --> 01:31:12,800
million people inside a locker
room will never work.

1917
01:31:13,040 --> 01:31:16,480
But there's so much that we see
not just me as a Packers

1918
01:31:16,480 --> 01:31:19,240
employee, but even like the
other writers, like the way guys

1919
01:31:19,240 --> 01:31:20,920
interact with each other, the
way guys come in.

1920
01:31:20,920 --> 01:31:25,440
Like you just realize it took me
a year to realize, I mean, these

1921
01:31:25,440 --> 01:31:28,400
are just all humans And like
they're just, they're just all

1922
01:31:28,400 --> 01:31:30,520
doing their thing and trying to
make money and support their

1923
01:31:30,520 --> 01:31:32,160
families or set up their
futures.

1924
01:31:32,160 --> 01:31:35,400
Like, and I think what happens
is we get such a small

1925
01:31:35,840 --> 01:31:38,960
viewpoint, right?
Rodgers during his time here, he

1926
01:31:38,960 --> 01:31:42,720
would talk for 15 minutes at his
locker a week, 10 minutes after

1927
01:31:42,720 --> 01:31:46,200
a game and that.
And then you saw clips of him

1928
01:31:46,520 --> 01:31:49,240
doing the same drills at
practice and some some of his

1929
01:31:49,240 --> 01:31:52,760
heroics on the game day field
and maybe a quick appearance on

1930
01:31:52,760 --> 01:31:54,000
Game of Thrones.
And then that's it.

1931
01:31:54,000 --> 01:31:57,040
Like that's our jeopardy, you
know, like that, that's how

1932
01:31:57,040 --> 01:32:00,320
everyone knows Aaron Rodgers.
But then you get to see these

1933
01:32:00,320 --> 01:32:03,840
guys when they're the cameras
aren't on and sometimes when the

1934
01:32:03,840 --> 01:32:07,000
media isn't in there yet and how
they interact with teammates and

1935
01:32:07,000 --> 01:32:10,360
how they kind of, you know, rib
each other and and get on each

1936
01:32:10,360 --> 01:32:13,200
other.
And that's that's the moment I

1937
01:32:13,200 --> 01:32:16,720
think where if people could see
that more, I think they would

1938
01:32:16,720 --> 01:32:19,480
understand the humans behind the
helmet.

1939
01:32:19,560 --> 01:32:22,800
And you can't.
It just doesn't work that way.

1940
01:32:22,800 --> 01:32:26,240
We're not going to have just a
24/7 camera just in Packers

1941
01:32:26,240 --> 01:32:27,800
locker room for a lot of
different reasons.

1942
01:32:28,040 --> 01:32:32,840
But I mean like that, that I
think is what if you're not

1943
01:32:32,840 --> 01:32:35,840
intentional thinking about the
fact that you're dealing with

1944
01:32:35,840 --> 01:32:39,520
another human being and there's
a brain inside your head and a

1945
01:32:39,520 --> 01:32:42,480
heart and blood Now that side.
We just take that so much for

1946
01:32:42,480 --> 01:32:44,240
granted.
That was just we are the show

1947
01:32:44,360 --> 01:32:47,080
and everything else is just
happening around us.

1948
01:32:47,520 --> 01:32:49,720
It's like the dance, monkey
dance thing, yeah.

1949
01:32:49,800 --> 01:32:51,120
And there's just so much more to
it.

1950
01:32:51,360 --> 01:32:54,240
Yeah, and that's been often my
my response when I get in those

1951
01:32:54,240 --> 01:32:57,160
conversations is like, I mean,
the proof is kind of in the

1952
01:32:57,160 --> 01:33:01,240
pudding with you see the deep
relationships he's had with the

1953
01:33:01,240 --> 01:33:03,960
people that are close to him.
And he said what, 3 teammates

1954
01:33:03,960 --> 01:33:09,640
maybe talk some jazz about them.
And after all those years, in my

1955
01:33:09,640 --> 01:33:11,800
18 years, I got some people that
will talk some shit about me,

1956
01:33:11,800 --> 01:33:15,280
right?
And like justified or not, it's

1957
01:33:15,280 --> 01:33:16,920
going to happen.
So it's going to happen to

1958
01:33:16,920 --> 01:33:20,920
everybody.
But at the at the scale that the

1959
01:33:20,920 --> 01:33:25,400
media tried to paint it into
this thing is, it was always

1960
01:33:25,400 --> 01:33:26,920
interesting to me.
And then of course, it bleeds

1961
01:33:26,920 --> 01:33:30,920
into the fans and we hear him
talk about, you know, with their

1962
01:33:30,920 --> 01:33:34,320
thoughts and opinions, but.
I I one of the big blessings in

1963
01:33:34,320 --> 01:33:38,440
my life is that I don't have a
camera on me, you know, 24/7 or

1964
01:33:38,520 --> 01:33:40,840
whatever, 2 hours a week,
whatever you want to call it

1965
01:33:40,840 --> 01:33:43,480
with Rogers.
But like if, if people saw the

1966
01:33:43,480 --> 01:33:46,280
way that I can be at times at
work, whether with my boss or

1967
01:33:46,280 --> 01:33:48,680
with my Co workers, I'm not
belligerent or anything like

1968
01:33:48,680 --> 01:33:50,680
that, but we all have weak
moments, right?

1969
01:33:50,680 --> 01:33:52,040
Yeah.
And they're not broadcast to

1970
01:33:52,040 --> 01:33:55,480
millions of viewers and, and
then have to then I have to a

1971
01:33:55,480 --> 01:33:57,360
press conference about it
afterwards or anything like

1972
01:33:57,360 --> 01:34:00,400
that, right.
The one thing I and again, this

1973
01:34:00,400 --> 01:34:02,560
goes back to something that
Lucas Patrick, a good friend of

1974
01:34:02,560 --> 01:34:05,880
mine that was a guard here for
many years and actually just

1975
01:34:05,880 --> 01:34:08,520
signed with the Giants.
Salt of the earth, dude.

1976
01:34:09,200 --> 01:34:14,000
Former trial player in Green Bay
from Duke end up making it as an

1977
01:34:14,000 --> 01:34:16,680
undrafted free agent in 2016.
And here we are 10 years later.

1978
01:34:16,680 --> 01:34:19,640
He's going into year 11.
Unbelievable guy, unbelievable

1979
01:34:19,640 --> 01:34:23,400
player when he was one of those
guys that I, I can't remember if

1980
01:34:23,400 --> 01:34:27,240
it was because he did get chewed
out on camera by Rogers, but

1981
01:34:27,240 --> 01:34:29,000
then we were all asked, this is
during COVID.

1982
01:34:29,000 --> 01:34:31,080
We're all asking about it
afterwards.

1983
01:34:31,080 --> 01:34:35,840
And he had this amazing analogy
about how like you invest into

1984
01:34:35,840 --> 01:34:38,960
people and there's a bank there
that you are constantly you

1985
01:34:38,960 --> 01:34:41,440
don't making deposits into when
in a relationship, in a

1986
01:34:41,440 --> 01:34:44,600
friendship.
And yeah, you might see for

1987
01:34:44,600 --> 01:34:48,560
three seconds Rodgers lash out
at somebody or there's something

1988
01:34:48,560 --> 01:34:50,560
happens in front of the camera.
What you don't see is them

1989
01:34:50,560 --> 01:34:54,160
sitting at the kitchen table in
the lunchroom.

1990
01:34:54,160 --> 01:34:55,880
You don't see them in the the
meeting room.

1991
01:34:55,880 --> 01:34:59,040
You don't see at the moments
where Lucas was question himself

1992
01:34:59,040 --> 01:35:01,400
as a player and Rodgers is
picking him up like those type

1993
01:35:01,400 --> 01:35:04,000
of things.
Like there's so many of those

1994
01:35:04,000 --> 01:35:05,840
things that happen.
And trust me, there's plenty of

1995
01:35:05,960 --> 01:35:08,160
I'm sure around the NFL, there's
plenty of bad stuff that happens

1996
01:35:08,160 --> 01:35:11,000
too.
But that's why I think you've

1997
01:35:11,000 --> 01:35:13,560
seen so many people come to his
defense because there's there's

1998
01:35:13,560 --> 01:35:17,720
all those individuals that he's
touched beyond what happens

1999
01:35:17,720 --> 01:35:20,560
inside those lines on a Sunday
afternoon at Lambeau Field.

2000
01:35:21,320 --> 01:35:26,160
It's the other, you know, hours
of the week, you know that, that

2001
01:35:26,160 --> 01:35:28,520
he's also.
Yeah, 80 hours they put in.

2002
01:35:28,640 --> 01:35:29,520
Yeah.
Yeah.

2003
01:35:30,760 --> 01:35:32,720
Well, that's a perfect segue to
wrap it up.

2004
01:35:32,720 --> 01:35:34,320
Thanks for making a deposit with
me today.

2005
01:35:35,200 --> 01:35:36,880
This is fun, man.
I appreciate it.

2006
01:35:36,880 --> 01:35:39,800
I, like I said before, I, I
don't, I've never really done a

2007
01:35:39,800 --> 01:35:41,960
sit down before.
I don't know how interesting I

2008
01:35:41,960 --> 01:35:46,920
am, but hey, I've, I've always
this, my, my standpoint's always

2009
01:35:46,920 --> 01:35:51,000
been like, I as a writer, as a
reporter, I'm asking people for

2010
01:35:51,000 --> 01:35:54,560
their time constantly.
Like I'm begging you for 5

2011
01:35:54,560 --> 01:35:58,920
minutes to discuss a game or I'm
asking for 15 minutes or family

2012
01:35:58,920 --> 01:36:01,560
photos or whatever, you know,
for all these different things.

2013
01:36:01,560 --> 01:36:05,440
And it's like, if somebody
actually wants to talk to me or

2014
01:36:05,440 --> 01:36:08,560
thinks I'm somewhat interesting,
who am I to say no?

2015
01:36:08,680 --> 01:36:10,600
Yeah, yeah, Appreciate it.
Flip.

2016
01:36:10,680 --> 01:36:14,160
It's nice to flip the script.
I, I, I place a lot more

2017
01:36:14,160 --> 01:36:21,240
precedence on 2000 impressions
that genuinely change something

2018
01:36:21,240 --> 01:36:25,320
or some something in someone's
mind or maybe see things a

2019
01:36:25,320 --> 01:36:27,080
different way or something like
that.

2020
01:36:27,080 --> 01:36:30,120
Then 30,000 that I can
definitely get.

2021
01:36:30,120 --> 01:36:32,480
I mean, I understand marketing,
I know how to get that stuff,

2022
01:36:32,480 --> 01:36:36,160
but I place so much more
emphasis on the the 3000 that

2023
01:36:36,160 --> 01:36:40,320
are what I would perceive as
mattering.

2024
01:36:40,560 --> 01:36:43,040
So.
Interesting is relative, my

2025
01:36:43,040 --> 01:36:46,240
friend and I, I thought it was
fantastic, so I appreciate your.

2026
01:36:46,240 --> 01:36:47,520
Time.
No, I appreciate, dude, this is

2027
01:36:47,520 --> 01:36:50,760
a lot of fun.
And yeah, world of sports, it's

2028
01:36:50,760 --> 01:36:52,600
crazy.
Yeah, I just got to make sure I

2029
01:36:52,600 --> 01:36:54,240
say your name right in the intro
and we'll be all good.

2030
01:36:54,360 --> 01:36:55,160
Ready.
Yeah.