Tom Mosgaller - Community Building, Pulling Together, and Citizen Change - Ep. #44

0:00 What's up friends, welcome back to Rooted Wisconsin. Appreciate you for clicking another episode. Appreciate you for being you. If you're on video, you could see I'm waist deep in the Wisconsin stream right now doing the intro before the episode drops on Monday. And there's a few mosquitoes flying around. So I'm going to jump into it. Pumped up to share this episode today with Tom Muskala, author, community builder, fascinating life path that we get into a lot of in today's episode. Leaves his Door County family farm at 12 years old for the seminary and that kicks off this weaving wandering life path of just fascinating stops. Gets drafted into Vietnam. We talked about that a little bit comes back from Vietnam and here's about community building and how we can impact communities positively. Works in Chicago for a little while. Awesome story of a project in Philadelphia where a group that he headed up fought for accommodations on public transportation which circled around and became relevant to his life so many years later.

1:01 Awesome story And the one of the premises or the the undertones of his messaging is to give people the skills to act on something you care about, your dreams, your discontents, something where you can create positive change in the world. And that's what Tom's all about, giving people the tools and empowering them to do those things. Huge shout out to our sponsors. Appreciate you at Forward Beverage. Appreciate you at Riverside Pizzeria of Green Bay, 2 fantastic Wisconsin businesses. If you dig our content, please support them. All that being said, enjoy the day. Enjoy the episode. Tom Muscular.

2:07 Tom Moss, Scholar, Thank you for joining me. Thanks for saying my name right. I did my. I did my homework, I did my homework and I and I read most of your book. I didn't get it finished yet. I heard you say earlier that there's one from the UP. I'm not there yet. Is it towards the end? The end story, the last story is AUP story. OK, I'm excited to talk with you. I'm excited to talk with you for a couple reasons. Initially it was because of the concept that that you and, and your co-author have kind of brought to light. Now since we had a chance to talk on the phone for a little while, it it's even more so just to talk with you 'cause your story is fascinating. So I've been waiting for this for a while and I, I think where, where to start is conceptually we'll take the calendar back in a little while and, and get to some of that story.

3:03 But I think I, I'd like to know what, what, what brought you to this idea of writing this book? How did you think of someone with ideological differences and coming together to do something that you know, builds in a different way than at least what's told to us on a, on a daily basis? How'd you come up with it? So it's not for me, it's not a new idea. As somebody who's been a community builder most of his life, whether I was working inside of an institution or in community from the bottom up, it's always it's never been about kind of IU them us, because you can't build strong communities when you're always thinking about ideological differences.

3:57 You got to work on those things you got in common things you can work on that make a difference that really means something to people locally. And so all my life, you know, I grew up in in with that is kind of and and it started when I was a kid on the farm up in Door County, right. I mean, we had to work together. I'm old enough to know what it was like in the transition from combining grain to back to thrashing. We were just in the shift, right when I was in the 50 in the 1950s and farmers had to work together. We had no choice. I mean, you had a butcher together. You had to cut wood together. You had to put your grain in. You know, we share sheet Cedars, different equipment in order to do things, harvesting, thrashing, all of that.

4:43 You had to work together. And so there were days when we were thrashing and I was a little boy. I mean, our rule of thumb was you couldn't drive a tractor until you were heavy enough to push the clutch in. That was that was it. So I probably was 7 when I started driving tractor, right? I gained enough weight. And so I would be out in the field where you're thrashing and you're pulling a wagon and people are throwing bundles of grain onto the wagon. And when we had good days, everybody'd be talking to everybody else. And then the next day, I could tell as a kid something was going on that I didn't know about, where the Lutherans may be on one side of the wagons and the Catholics on the other.

5:26 And they didn't talk. They didn't talk, but they didn't walk either. They stayed getting the grain in 'cause their farm was next in line, you know. So you learn from those kind of stories, right, Not to spend your time on the differences. You learn. Yeah, we got differences. Hell, they were. They have orange tractors. We have green tractors. But you know, we all got to pull together. Yeah. So that's a concept I often think about is that do you think that some of the that polarization or divide that we see on a daily basis is because of some of those struggles look different today than they did then there's they're not so immediately apparent and there in our lives. You know, it's hard to just kind of assume I know what the answer is, right?

6:16 But I do have my theories, right, Which is it's a more complicated time and there's far more noise in the system right now. I mean, you've got a lot of forces pulling on you, and depending upon where you get your information, you're going to hear certain things that are going to drive the way you view the world. And if you only listen to that, right, it's going to set you up for a certain view of the world. That only puts you into a deeper box in separation, right? Yeah, and you have to make the, you have to make the mental choice to get out of that. Box. That's right. That's right. Absolutely. I thought that was a perfect place to start, but you segwayed me into where I wanted to get next to seven, pushing that clutch in. It wasn't too many years after that that you, I mean, still as a, as a youthful young person, you made another choice that left the farm, right?

7:09 Yeah, I was 12 years old and I remember, you know, we were not, we didn't have a lot of money. We didn't have indoor plumbing at the time. This was in the 50s, you know, everybody had outdoor plumbing and we didn't have running water in the house. I, we still had to go out to the pump to get water. We had electricity in the house because of rural electrification. So that took care of that part. So there'd be light bulbs hanging around. But you know, we didn't have a lot of those amenities. You kind of. So anyway, you know, us farm kids that people knew you didn't have that till you get on the school bus. You sat in the front because other kids made fun of you.

7:53 And I think that affected me and made me just say, you know, I don't need this. I think I I can do some other things with my life. And Sister Ursula at the Catholic school is passionate for sure's to become missionary priests. My eyes got really big. I said, holy cow, here's my chance, right, To do something that I think would be really exciting. And so I made the decision to go to the seminary to be a priest at 12 years old. So I spent four years in the seminary at Saint Asians, Wisconsin, when that was a seminary. And yeah, so the story goes on. But that was a major shift in my life.

8:35 And it was it was scary. It was scary for my dad because for dad, it meant having to sell a cow every year out of our 13 cow herd, right? And he would look at me but never say anything when he had to sell that cow to pay our little share of that tuition to the seminary. Wow. You know, I felt real guilt to be, you know, to make the mark, to be successful. You know, it was a heavy, it was a heavy shift. And at 1213 years old, yeah, to feel that, yeah. Yeah. So man, I have so many questions just about that. You know, it seemed and it's part of it as times changing, right?

9:18 But as a, you know, to have family support of a 12 year old to make that decision, even though you were feeling that guilt, had to be a powerful driver too at that time, right? It was, it was, you know, when it was my mom, my Irish Carmody mom who was the one driving for me, you know, championing my doing it. You know, my dad wanted me home. He needed me on the farm and I I get that. But Mom was the one who helped me make the make the bridge. Yeah, and that's the flip side of the coin, right? How many siblings do you have? Two brothers who are up on the farm. Indoor county today still it's been in the farm since 1890 and on Sunny Slope Rd.

10:01 Sunny Slope farm just north of of Carlsville. I love it. Yeah. And that's the flip side of the coin, right? That at that time, hands on deck were needed at the farm. That's, you know, you pitch into the family and and you go, what a what a heavy thing. So what did those four years entail? Did you get out of it what you thought, what you thought you would as a 12 year old moving in? Well, you know, there's a real discipline to going into a seminary. Everything you're up at 5:00 in the morning, you're, you know, go to Chapel, Black suit, white shirt. I didn't, you know, we had to buy things that my family could not either afford or had a, a napkin ring, right?

10:43 I mean, a napkin ring. And, and I'm like, what the hell is a napkin ring? My mom had to go ask an aunt who lived in the city who had a napkin ring. We had to get all that stuff is part of the list you get of the things you have to have to go to the seminary. So it was a real eye opening shift. You know your class of 80 kids from all over the United States in a new place, right? Living in a dorm with 120 other guys, you know, up at 5 in church by 6, right in class by 8. It was, it was that had a rigor to it that I wouldn't have probably gotten if I would have stayed home. And I learned Latin and Greek, which ain't bad to know just in terms of understanding the root of things in life. Right.

11:33 Yeah. Yeah. And then this summer I'd go home and, you know, pitch in on the farm and pick cherries and do all the stuff a farm boy how to do. Yeah, yeah, transformative years. So then as that wraps up, what happens? Yeah, after those four years, I just decided this this wasn't going to be me, you know, I wasn't going to be a priest. It just wasn't there. That wasn't the right thing for me. So I went to Stevens Point and played hockey and they gave me a degree. They gave you one or your? Well, that's not true, but you know, I helped start the program at Stevens Point. We were the first ones to to get that program going at Point in hockey, which has become a really good program. Hockey program.

12:20 Yeah. And then after that, I got drafted into the during the Vietnam time and spent 2 1/2 years in the military and came back from that and was trying to figure out what the hell I was going to do. Right, Like a lot of us as young people, not quite sure. And I learned about this thing called community organizing. And I knew that was the kind of, I knew I didn't want to be a social worker. My friends kept saying, Tom, you got a record for the most penalties at point. You're not going to be a social worker. You got too much edge. So I heard about this thing called community organizing. And so I went down into Chicago and learn from people how you learn the skills they don't teach in school about civic life and how you can make a difference by teaching people about change and how you can make a difference. And it was driven by a lot of faith-based organizations, both Jewish, Catholic, Muslim, all kinds of institutions that came together to work on things to help families improve the quality of life in cities.

13:28 And I did that for 15 years, Chicago, Philadelphia, central Pennsylvania, organizing after a big flood in central PA to help families keep their homes, blah, blah, blah. So it was it was a real learning about power and change that I will never regret. I mean, it was. So yeah, most people don't get that chance. Yeah. And we we walk these paths that sometimes seem they're written for us and sometimes they seem that we have this autonomy or choice. But, you know, do we or not? I don't know. But I think it's pretty poignant that you, that you glossed over spending 2 1/2 years in Vietnam and like that amalgam of diverse experiences that you had in those transformative years, I think probably led to some of that efficacy of what you've done in your career for the, for a lot of, in a lot of different ways. And I want to go back and linger on that for a second because I'm not surprised that it happened because I like I've had a lot of conversations with different Vietnam Veterans and a lot of times it is that it's glossing over it. It is, it's not, it's not the depth of discussion isn't there. And I think some of it comes from just that, that divisive scenario in itself.

14:50 And what it was right is that is that often how it it comes up in conversation for you? Do you think is it something that comes and goes? Well, it's always in the back of my head. I, I'm still, I'm still actively involved in farmers and veterans as a coalition to try and help Afghan and Iraqi people coming back who have a lot of issues having dealt with that, which I won't go into now. But it's important to help other veterans try and get themselves back in civic life in a useful way because no matter where you were in the military, you have some common bond around, you know, the importance of mission in life, whatever that mission is at any given time, you appreciate it.

15:38 So I'm going to share one quick story because I, I around that time. So after basic training at Fort Campbell, actually right here in Green Bays where I first got to ride an airplane in order to go down to Fort Campbell. I mean, I'd never been on a plane, you know, And Dad drops me off and Sturgeon Bay and get on the bus at 5:00 in the morning, hold me down here to Green Bay, get on my first airplane, take me down to Fort Campbell. I get off that airplane and there's 80 guys standing there all. And that was in the late 60s. Long hair beads around their neck, right? Paisley pants. I mean, this was a motley grue. And the guy calls me out the the drill Sergeant says, muscular, muscular, come up here. And so I stepped up and he said, do you play hockey? I said, yes, I did.

16:28 He said, your captain, right? I said, yes, Sir. Then I'm going to put these stripes on you. And from day one in the military, I, they put stripes on me as a Sergeant and I, and he said, your first job to prove that you're worthy of leading this group is to take them and get their hair cut. I thought, Oh my God, one thing these guys don't want us to have their head shaved. And here I am. I've got to take them and get their head shaved. And I think about that often times of what a significant act of change that was to lead these guys over to get their haircuts. Then I let them, you know, I was their leader in basic training for, you know, all of basic training. And we won the Leadership Award in the battalion 8 weeks in a row.

17:15 And I can't take any credit for that, but it said something about the culture we created with our unit. We really built a strong culture. And then I went on to military police school. God knows how they chose me for that, but it was a military police Sergeant is what my time was in the military with 80 guys usually that I was responsible for. What an amazing story. So. And do you think it was truly 'cause you just 'cause you had played hockey? I don't they would have looked at something more than that college graduate. Probably they they would have seen that as another contributing. They were looking for people.

17:57 I was a little older. Most of these guys were right. I died out of high school that were, you know, being drafted. I was 23, so I was a little older. I'd been to college. I had played sports and done a lot of things in my life. So I think there was a combination of things that resulted in that. But once you take on that leadership, it really makes a difference in how you view the world. And it affected me ever since. Absolutely. Yeah. And then you didn't. You didn't. You can't correct that guy for saying your name wrong. No, that's right. Second time that jokes come up and that's actually with a, with a person. I'm excited to connect you with another friend of the podcast, Jake from DC Farm for Vets, very similar thing. So I'm excited for you all to have that conversation. But yeah, I, I just, I like to, I always like to dig a little bit when I get the chance in that scenario because obviously I wasn't around at that time.

18:52 But you hear the stories, you read the stories and some of the places I've got in conversation with other Vietnam vets, there is so much heaviness there that I think some, and you know, not all, you can't stereotype or whatever, but some feel the need to keep it compressed and stuck inside. And I think for a lot of reasons, same reason I start the podcast. I think some of that stuff needs is good to climb out once in a while. Well, I keep contributing. I mean, I think if you keep leaning in and helping others, you don't spend so much time dwelling on whatever experiences you had.

19:32 Absolutely. Yeah. OK. So that sets the foundation and then how then when you get back from that experience, what do you remember, what the the first step in the direction of community building was like? How'd you, how'd you land on it? How'd you decide it might be for you and then grow into it? Yeah, that's a really good framing of that. I, you know, I came back, I didn't know what the heck I was going to do. I was, I was up on the farm for a few months just trying to help dad and. Regain relationships with everybody there. And I came down here to Green Bay, to the Job Corps office, right? And the guys interviewing me and he says, Gee, would you like to work here at the Job Corps?

20:20 You'd be really good doing, you know, placement of people in the Job Corps. And I said, well, that's a wonderful awful. Let me think about it in a minute. And so I walked outside and I looked at that building and I said, shit, I can't see the rest. My next 20 years in this Job Corps building. It's just not me. And so I kind of got my courage up and went back in to tell him, you know, I don't think I want to do this. And the phone rang and it was someone from the University of Wisconsin Green Bay who said, we're starting a new program to take students and move them into communities all across the state to work on things that they could help improve the quality of life of people in inner city Milwaukee up on the reservation working the migrant camps. And I said, I overheard that phone call. And I said to the guy, I want that job. And so he said, oh, man, you sure? I says, yeah, I want to do that.

21:20 And so I went out to UWGB, walked into the office of the guy running it, and I interviewed. And. And so I spent the next year helping get that program started for students at UWGB to go work in communities all across straight. It was a great experience. And that set me up for wanting to do community building work. Yeah, by the grace of God, Right By the grace of God. Seriously, that's one. Yeah. That's one of those things that makes you, well, harkening back to what I said earlier about, you know, do you walk the path that's there for you or do you have this autonomy, something like that? Yeah. Is so that phone call happens when you go back in to tell them that you don't want.

22:03 I don't want this job. I don't want this job. That's amazing. That's. Amazing, Tom. Yeah, but you know, when your gut, you know, you're old enough at that time, 2425, you know if it's not, if it ain't even close to right. Oh, absolutely right. Yep. Yep, and then sometimes we still act in the opposite direction and then even regret it even more. Exactly after you try. To force something, yeah, make it to happen. And that often is a that's a fruitless attempt at something that it doesn't help to force. OK, so you do a year for that, you grow these chops. And I'm sure there were trials and tribulations within that, but probably what you you grew or the seeds sprouted of that, of what that career could be. And then what's your next step?

22:53 Well, that's a really good point. And, and I think I learned what I didn't know right here. I am trying to help young people in college work in places like on the, you know, reservation or in migrant camps. And I, I don't pretend that I know those cultures, right? I didn't know how to do that stuff, right. I had some experience, obviously, in the military. You're rubbing up against all kinds of characters from all over the world, you know, But I just decided I got to, I got to learn more. I got to know more about change. I've got to know more about power. And so I heard about people who do community organizing in Chicago and I just went down there and met with them and, and became part of an effort in Chicago, the Crosstown Expressway that all of us drive now through Chicago at that time was being built. And some planning department person had drawn a line and it went right through all these parishes, all these neighborhoods, They just cut them wide open, didn't care about, you know, anything.

24:00 And we, I learned how to organize by helping people in those neighborhoods organize to make sure that that was done in a way that did not destroy the ethnic neighborhoods and the various communities. So when you when you drive down through Chicago now and you see some curves and some, you know, changes, I can say, Yep, we went up against the original mayor daily to fight for those neighborhoods to improve. Keep that. And I learned so much by doing that, so much about civic life and the kind of people who will stand up and separate themselves from others and be courageous about not letting a large city just decide what's important for residents. Absolutely.

24:48 Is there Is is your name on one of those curves? That'd be awesome. No, no. Most of us community builder types, we stay quite quiet about, you know, we celebrate in private, you know? Yeah, yeah. So that first experience down there doing that, what, how, how did, how did you, how did that, how was that a way you made money? Was it a non through a nonprofit organization? Or how did, how did that turn into like, how did you deem that a career, you know? Yeah, that's a good point. So there are faith bears, networks that do community building as part of their justice commitment, right. And so the Catholic churches, Protestant churches have that kind of justice bent to them. And actually after about 6-8 months in Chicago, they said, Tom, I think you're ready.

25:41 We we've got an opportunity in Philadelphia where you could go in as a number, what we would call a #2 to learn, be a novice organizer. We're trying to do some organizing in Philadelphia. And the churches, the synagogues, the mosques have all come together to try and help make that happen. And they put up the seed money to answer your question. They put up enough money for me to have two years in order to establish something in that community. And so I went to Philadelphia. I'd never been there, you know, parachuted in there And being, you know, young, I just said three years from now we're going to have a major organization here in Philadelphia.

26:21 I'm like, wow, did you say that? You know, and, and I wrote it up actually as part of a, a, a story in a book that not the one I'm talking about today. But anyway, yeah. And, and they said to me, Tom, we're going to start by organizing the elderly. And I thought, oh, no, I don't want to work with old people. I'm 24 years old. I don't want to work with old people and so I ended up organizing elderly and three years later we had a network of 270 neighborhood groups, church based groups that were organized across city, had our founding convention and there was close to 2500 people there as delegates from all the neighborhoods, the communities, the faith-based and it had power. It really could do things.

27:15 We could turn out a thousand 1500 people on the drop of a hat because they loved it. It was so much fun. We were the first day, first ones to get accommodation bars on the city buses so that people with disabilities could get on buses. We had them lower the buses, bus step by 6 inches, put grab bars on the buses. Amazing. In hindsight, everybody says, well, that's just part of the way things are. They weren't in the 70s They weren't. We helped get that started. Yeah, and that's one of the poignant stories from the book, a similar lens of the If I remember it's. A quadriplegic, Yes.

27:56 Who ended up overcoming all these obstacles of that to become a teacher. But I think the the piece that sticks in my mind and I think will for a lot who read the book was the pre cutouts and sidewalks. Curb cuts and yeah. Yeah, so pre those or like her experience even with, you know, she overcome all that, overcame all those things to become a teacher and then had the interview where someone asked her how are you going to use the bathroom? Right. That is gut wrenching. Isn't it?

28:37 Yeah. And I think that's one of the many things that you all did a great job with of taking down. That's one of those barriers that takes, that's one of those things that takes down the barrier between ideological difference. I think you're absolutely right. Like if that. If you don't read those words and get moved by empathy for that person, it's going to be tough to sway you anyway in any direction or have any type. But yeah, that's all I So having recently read the book. I don't think it recently matters though, because in talking with you, that's one of those stories that like if I think about an access bar or a holding bar in a bus, I'm always going to think of that story. Well, and part of the lessons in that story was, you know, I was young and arrogant and I thought the first thing we're going to, one of the things we were going to take on was getting reduced fares because the older people didn't have the money or the disabled people to even ride the buses. I think at that time it was like $0.35 to ride the bus. And when your Social Security check was maybe 75 bucks a month, $0.35 to ride to come to gatherings or, or just go to church or go to your neighborhood center was, you know, they couldn't afford to go there to get a hot meal. And so I'm saying, well, let's take on the bus company. And all these people are looking at each other saying, where's this kid from?

30:04 Right. And and they said, Tom, come down to the corner with us. So we went down to the corner and Lillian Holiday, African American woman, said, watch me try and get on the bus. And so Lillian went up. There's about 10 of us standing there, and she tries to get on the bus. And there's no grab bar. The step is too high. She's got arthritic arthritis, and she's trying to get on the bus. And this guy driving the bus glares down with his sunglasses on and said, you getting on or you getting off, lady? And he slams the door. And Lillian says that is what we got to do first. We can do this. We can make the buses accessible and that's what we did 1st.

30:45 And once we won that, then they said, Tom, I think we're ready to take on the bus company and see if we can get reduced fares for older people and disabled. And we did. And we were able to get half fares for elderly and disabled first in the country to be able to do that. And I did consulting recently in Philly and I was riding in from the airport on the on the train into Reading Terminal downtown. And the guy taking tickets looks at me and says, you look like you're older. And I said, yes, I probably am. Why are you asking? He says, 'cause we got this thing here in Philadelphia where you can get half price on the bus. And this is 35 years or 40 years ago. And I'm like, Oh my God, I get the benefit 40 years later of having worked on that issue with these people. But, you know, those are wonderful stories in life of people, people stepping up, you know, and it was not ideological.

31:42 It was not left, right. It was not polarized. It was black people, white people. It was they just needed to be able to do stuff in the world. And this was standing in the way of their having a full life. Yeah, It took away those front descriptors. It's just people. Yeah. That's an amazing story, man. That's an amazing story. Dan, could you, could you, like, take a walk around so our key lights come back on? Thank you. We'll let him do this and then I got the next part. We doing OK? Yeah, we're doing great.

32:26 Thank you. Yeah. So I think I don't want to take it for granted or or take the just the make the assumption that community organizing or community building is is descriptive enough for people to know what it is. So what's your definition of it? Well, you know, this is where my co-author Pastor Mike and I have difference. I believe you scrub off and I I just speak up that I'm a community organizer. But Mike, you know, is a non denominational evangelical pastor who lives in a small rural community.

33:09 And he said, if you use the word community organizing here, that'll be a flag word Tom. And I respect that. If if that's what Mike feels will stop people from coming into conversation, you can call me Tom. I don't care, right? My main thing is, is that things you care about in this world, whether your kid gets a good education or grandma has a good nursing facility to live in, right? Or you got good feed for your cattle. I mean, that's what I care about and I don't care what you label it. What I care about is, is that people know how to actually act in public life and be effective with civic life. Because I think a lot of people are defeated because they don't know how to interact or intersect around things.

33:54 They have dreams or discontents that they want to do something about. Absolutely. Or feel completely powerless. Feel powerless. Absolutely powerless. Yeah. And I think that's a large part of it, right, is kind of not delivering that power, but delivering the prospect. Yeah, what can I do? What can I do about that? Right. And you know, the word here goes my Latin, but the word power comes from the Latin word pose POSSE. It means the ability to act, all right. It's ability. It's a neutral term. It's not, you know, pejorative in any way. It's just neutral. You got some power. I got some power, little power. But if we put it together with a lot of other folk, we can make a difference. We can make change happen that we care about. And that that's what I really tried to help people appreciate and not get caught in our ideological boxes. And Mike and I, that's part of why we wrote the book together. We may have ideological differences, but it doesn't separate us from working on make sure the Creek is clean. So, you know, and that we got a swimming pool in, in his hometown, right?

35:06 Those kind of things so that you can attract young people back in the rural communities struggling to get young people back home. Yeah, yeah, another great story from the book with the childcare. Ah, yes, yeah. But that's something we have to talk to you today. I'm excited to learn how to. How did you and Mike come together? I think I read somewhere, it might have even been in the book that you've been friends for quite some time now. But how does that, how did that relationship start? And how do you get to the point where you realize that you're going to write a book together? Yeah, so I I just wanted being a rural farm kid, I wanted to take what I knew about organizing, but to apply it back home here in my home state. So after organizing in Philadelphia and cutting my teeth on some major organizing in central PA, I got the opportunity to come back to Wisconsin to organize. And I wanted to take what I had learned into small towns and rural areas because that's what I know best. And so in the 1980s, when the interest rates went way through the roof and farmers were leaving the land left and right, I helped start something called the Wisconsin Rural Development Center out of Black Earth Wisconsin. We were in the basement of the local bank and we worked on things to help keep farmers on the land. We worked on how we can help farmers get reduced cost mortgages with succession

36:40 planning to hand off their farms to others. We worked on, you know, way before people were thinking about it, the whole idea of farmers markets as an alternative to kind of commodity selling a product. And so, you know, every time I go up to the square in Madison and there's 20,000 people walking around, I pinch myself because those kind of markets have a whole supply chain of people that are in business because there are alternative markets to putting your cattle on a in a feed lot, right. So not that either of them are, I'm not making pejorative about which is right. I'm just saying we need options, people need options and and we can provide that.

37:24 So that was one of the reasons I ran into Mike. He was in Richland Center where he's a pastor and him and I just hit it off around the things we agree on, not what we don't agree on. We don't spend a lot of time there. You know, he wrestled at the UW. So I was naturally attracted to a guy who's a wrestler and, and I played hockey and then played rugby and Philly and, you know, on the East Coast. And so, you know, we, we know how to bang around a little bit. And so Mike and I really hit it off. And he, he had a dream for that community. And so over 10 years, he built something that I helped support called Southwest Partners.

38:07 And Southwest Partners has been a driving force in Richland County for change. And it's made-up of citizens who, you know, got dreams or discontents they want to do something about and non ideological, not politically motivated, just we want to have a homeless shelter here. We want to do something about people who are out on, you know, needing a hand up. So, yeah, so that's how I got to know Mike. And we've, you know, we've had our little pushes and shovings around when we rub up against a little ideological difference. But that the one thing Mike and I are never going to step away from the table. I learn a lot by listening to him and he does hopefully for me as a result. And that's what we got to do more. If we just cannot continue to get deeper and deeper in polarization, absolutely it's going to kill us all. Absolutely, yeah.

39:01 And the bulk of the time, I mean, I hesitate to say all the time, but the bulk of the time it comes from long form conversation and staying at the table. And you know, a lot of the kind of like when we're the external or the third party viewing it one, it's very easy to walk away from the table. You turn the TV off, you click the X on the Internet, whatever you, you walk away. But even in conversation with our friends, our neighbors, our family, that's I think much more the go to now is we don't go there. And if it comes up, we're out. We walk away. Once it once it's something that kind of butts up against what we think and believe.

39:41 And I completely agree with you that that staying at the table is really important. Yeah, it's really important. So when does the book come up then? Well, first I got to share a quick story just triggered for me, which, you know, I'm a big, I study history a lot. And so there was a point where Abraham Lincoln was in the state legislature in Illinois, and he went in and there was some guy ranting. Totally in opposition to something he cared about. And he came back to his law office, to his partner and he said, I really don't like that guy. I'm going to have to learn who he is. I've got to learn his story.

40:23 And I have found out over my many years doing community building work, you got to know somebody's story before you call him out or you make your choice to not walk alongside him, right? Because once you hear people's stories and you say, well, I can figure out even I don't agree necessarily, I can figure out how he came to where he is. I may not agree with it, but I at least appreciate where he got his information, what story in his life may have led him to that. And I'm sorry that happened or I'm glad that happened. But if you don't hear other story, if you're not willing to sit down and listen to the other person's story, you're not even giving it a chance to be part of a community. Yeah, absolutely.

41:07 That's so poignant. I mean, and so you think of like, I think that happens often times in conversation where you come to this point where or you know, even if it's your first impression with somebody else, you see it and we just immediately put it in the lens of that person presently in us. But we're all this, we're all this, you know, a bag of bones that had all these things that happened to us up to a point in life that shapes our thoughts, shapes our opinions, shapes how we share them. And without knowing that, without it, it's really easy to tape it up in a box and say, well, that's wrong or that's not what needs to happen.

41:49 But you know, I, I would say that there the value, there's more value in in the story to get there than the actual opinion, because that's where you can determine and make aware even of triggering in somebody's mind. Like, Oh yeah, you know, this is something that maybe has me believing something that maybe I don't need to or I can have a different lens on what a story. Yeah, when I'm, you know, when you're doing community building work, you're always out there doing kind of what you're doing right now, which is you're the one doing the the one-on-one with someone and you're.

42:30 So tell me more about that. Why did that, How did that happen? How did that affect you? How did it affect your family? My God, that's amazing that you went through that experience. I can see why you feel the way you do. You know, we may have a different view on that, but I sure as hell understand it better when I understand you and why you are the way you do. And you still, you care about wanting to clean up the Creek, right? Let's go work on it. Yeah. Get by it man, get by it. Yep. You know what's fascinating about that, Tom, is I had no idea until reading your book. And I owe you a debt of gratitude because of that.

43:11 Because prior to you reaching out and learning about what you do, I had, I had a vision of what I wanted rooted or what I want rooted Wisconsin to be. But it was, it still is. It's not obviously probably never will be complete, but it was. So I, I tell everybody, we share the stories of the people driving Wisconsin business, community and culture. I, I created this because I love our area of the country. I wanted to shine this positive spotlight on it. There are wonderful people on all sides of the aisle that I come across and I knew that the value for me of it is connecting people.

43:53 But I, I never tied it to outcomes. I never tied it to the value of that. I tied it like I want to connect people because that's how I love to feel. That's how I love to feel. I love having any time you get into a deeper than surface level conversation with somebody, you leave that feeling extremely connected and optimistic and positive. And selfishly, that's why I made the podcast. I wanted to feel that way. I wanted and I, I thought others did too, but I never connected it to outcome. So it's, it's funny that that came up in conversation today because each time I've opened your book, reading a new story in it or reading the lens of how it was created, or you do a great job of kind of toeing the line between those two things.

44:47 And I, I had that thought every time. And it's, it's one of those aha moments that you, and like, I mean, we're less than two hours into conversation. You have that recognition of what I was trying to do. And you would have even before I, I had it and I didn't. So I, I appreciate your message that you've shared from more than just the common reasons it it helps me shape what my vision is for what we're trying to do. Well, thank you. And you know, just getting to know you, Brett, it's quite evident that you are a natural connector. That's that's at the soul of who you are, right? It is, yeah. It's and again, that's sure it comes out probably because we gravitate towards our strengths and things that we're good at. And I'm I'm inherently curious about the world and specifically about people, but when?

45:44 When, when we're looking, you know, when I'm in a community where I'm parachuted in some place to want to try and find out what talent is there and what people care about and doing deep listening, right. And I'm doing a lot of one-on-one conversations to be curious. I'm usually looking for four kind of attributes in a leader. You know, I, I've been in the, I've been in the private sector as a vice president of the company. I've, I've worked in the public sector. We're 3 mayors in the city of Madison, right? I've done those things. But when I look in community, what I'm looking for as community leaders, civic leaders, citizen leaders, there are 4 attributes. And I just want to share those 'cause you mentioned one, which is they're natural connectors. I'm looking for people who, when I say who else should I talk to, they go, well, I'm not the one you should really be talking to. You should be talking to so and so and so and so and so and so. They are naturally linked up like Lily Tomlins with the old switchboard.

46:45 I mean they just, you see them all over the place. They are natural connectors and if you can find them, they are special people. The second one, you also mentioned your curiosity. I look for people who have imagination, right? Enough imagination to when you you get to that bus stop and you can't get on the damn bus you say. I think we could change this. I think we can make something different than what it is. So you got to have that kind of imagination. The third attribute I always look for is they got deep story, 'cause you don't hang in there on the tough times unless you got a story that comes out of your gut, right, or gut story.

47:26 And then the fourth thing is you got to have a sense of humor. You just, you can't do this work without having a sense of humor, right? Yeah. It's just critical because it's a lot of bumps and bangs. The world doesn't turn the way you'd like it every time you, you know, Wade the magic wand. Yeah, just the the heaviness of the of the work can, you know, push you away of of not wanting to feel all that way of the things that you back to the powerless thing. Right. Exactly, exactly. You raised something up. I just got to share. Can I do that? So when I was, you know, that you asked me about kind of my genesis story and why this work is useful.

48:10 And I think when we talk about the importance of story, when I was and Mike and I in the book, we open with the story of how each and each of us came to why this is important and that genesis story. I didn't know Mike's story until 10 years ago. But we both grew up at a time when farmers back in the late 60s, early 70s were getting the heck beat out of them on price. They just couldn't stay in business, you know, and my dad, we were struggling. We were never political family. We were never, I never heard Democrat or Republican or anything in our household.

48:51 But I did hear about how the hell are we going to pay, you know, the light bill? And so one Saturday, my dad says, what if we go to this rally in Brussels? And I and I said, would you like to go along, Tommy? I said, well, it's better than, you know, shovel and manure, which is Saturday morning ritual on the fire. And I said, yeah, I'd like to do that. I didn't have a clue. So we put dad put some milk cans or milk cans in the back of our old truck. We went up, picked up our neighbor Ruben's cans and him, Ruben. Dad and I went out to this field in Brussels where there was a rally being put on by farmers who were trying to get the prices, get the get the company to the table to talk. And I got big eyes because, number one, I don't get to go places that much at that time in my life. And here's all these farmers on a kind of like now there's a March, early April, snow still on the ground just melting. And these farmers, as part of that event, started dumping their cans of milk down into this furrowed, plowed field. And I watched this milk and dirt running down as a kid. I'm like, what the heck, We never spill a cup of milk. And here we are dumping out.

50:14 Something's going on here that was pretty special. And then there's a couple speakers, and they said in two weeks, if we keep this up, we can get them to the table. So everybody really think deeply about hanging in there with us, right? And so everybody got back in their truck, and I went back out to the road where our truck was standing. And somebody drove by in a car and rolled down the window and said, here, you dumb farmers read this. And I went over and picked this newspaper out of the snow, and the car had a Illinois license plate on because we get a lot of tourists up in Door County.

50:56 But at that time, I really didn't understand that. But I picked up the paper and I looked at it and it said something like, Wisconsin farmers starved Chicago children. And I'm like, what the hell, you know? And I looked at my dad, looked at Ruben, and I held it out to my dad. And I said, Dad, are we starving kids in Chicago? And Dad just didn't know how to answer. And he handed it to Reuben and he said, Reuben, you explained this to Tom. Yeah. Reuben says, yeah, thanks, Frank. And so the only thing Reuben could do in that truck was just put his arm around me and said, these things are complicated, Tom, and that's it. But it was a genesis story for me, you know, that was seated probably that affected my actually going to the seminary and also affected my choosing this this work as a as a part of my life.

51:52 Yeah. Thanks for allowing me to share that, it's just an important story for me. Unbelievable story. It's one that gives you chills hearing. And it's funny that you said that because that's exactly what I'm thinking that that is a core moment of like when you made the choice as a 12 year old to go to the seminary, That's your way of like that's what you had access to, to know how you could be able to help, how you could help. You know that that's what had been in your circle and that, you know, you make that choice and say, well, that's how I can help. You didn't have much choice in going to Vietnam. You didn't have any choice in going to Vietnam being drafted. But then post that you knew you didn't want to be at the Job Corps. But then you hear that phone call and say, man, that sounds like a way to help.

52:40 And I, I would assume, and you can, you can tell me if this is right or way off. But I would assume that as you navigated your career and grew as a human and and developed different experiences, I think probably does it come back to that's one of the core things that you've you're drawn to, you're sucked into and and feel passionate about is just helping. Yeah, you know, helping is a useful word, but I think an iron rule we use in community building is we don't do things for people they can't learn to do for themselves. And so the work is less about kind of being a a helper and and charity.

53:25 It's not about charity. It's about you can do this, I can help you learn how to make a difference in the world and you've got the gifts to do it if you want to step up and be part of it, right? Am I making sense on that? So I leave people behind. I hope better than I found them, like a good coach. I always love coaching and I love you know, So I'm more, I'd like to think of myself as more of a walk alongside people. I help them, I coach them, help them prepare, help them afterwards learn what happened, what worked, what didn't right in events, just like a good coach did for me. And I'm grateful for I'm doing that in civic life. That's what I want to do to help rebuild a need for people to get engaged in civic life.

54:14 Eloquently put, true and kind of resemblant of what your partner, your co-author, had said about if we call this one thing, people won't do it. And it's funny because one of my, I'm sure my students get tired of hearing me say it, but I always tell them I'm here to support your success. Yeah, let me know. I can do that. Now that's a lot different than saying let me know if you need help. And it's funny that it came out that way because I I think that's a that's part that's part of being an effective connector that you said earlier is sharing a message in a way that lands and that doesn't make someone feel a host of different ways that could stop you from doing something ashamed, overwhelmed, whatever you could, you could list words for days that if you feel them, it it is a a hill on the way to success. But yeah, that's eloquently put, my friend. Yeah.

55:21 Yeah, And you know, I don't make an offer to people to do something unless it's in their interest, right? It's not out of guilt and obligation because that's not sustainable. They're not going to be there for the kind of bumping and banging you're going to have to do to make change. But if people got a deep story about something they care deeply about, then if you want to work together, see if we can't do something about this, right? And most people say, yeah, I, I want to become better. I want to learn how to do this. And, and one other thing I want to add to this is, you know, we just went through this major election in the Wisconsin, $100 million spent on it, and people got really rallied around electoral politics.

56:10 And I just want people to appreciate there's more than electoral politics in the world. That real civic life, you know, going back 2000 years to the Greeks is much more about what you do as a citizen locally to make a difference in the world. And we just, we don't, we don't teach people the importance of that. And so, you know, electoral politics is a necessary thing to do. It's important, but it's not sufficient. Sufficient is having the skills to act in the things that you care deeply about right now, right here in your place. And isn't that reflective of your original point, the point we were just on, it's reflective of if you're pushed to do something, it's not sustainable. That's what governmental policy and pressure is it. It is constraining.

57:08 It puts things in boxes, which we need. At the same time, that isn't sustainable change at a human level, at A at a human community level. At that scale. Yeah. So like when you think of, you know, the most constraining authoritative regimes in the world, looking at it from the outside in, we're like, how do those people live? How are they, how do they continue on? They're doing something at a community level that makes life at the bare minimum worth living. But past that, and I think the the polarization I think jams people in this place of, well, we have to wait to see what we're told to do until we do it. But it's it's not going to, it's not going to bring the connection.

58:03 It's not going to bring the success. It's not going to bring it. It is at a truly, I mean, grassroots is an overused term, but it's at an individual level. And then what you do for your community can create some sweat. You identifiably smaller changes that can then blossom into more connection. Yep, absolutely, absolutely. As your confidence grows and your ability to engage people grow, you can take on bigger dreams, right? Or bigger discontents? Absolutely. And the dreams become realistic. Yeah, I I had the good fortune. I don't know if it's good fortune.

58:44 Yeah, I'd say it was good fortune of working in other countries, being invited to other places, like in Argentina after the disappearance of families, where 20,000 people were disappeared. And I was brought down there by family members about five years after all of that. But it was still raw to try and get people back engaged in civic life when they had learned to just hide, hide, put your helmet on, cinch it up, stay low, don't go in public, drive fear into society. And I came down there at the will of the families. And the first thing they showed me when I got there was they took me to a football stadium where a lot of their family members had been buried under the football soccer stadium. And, you know, I was like, I couldn't believe it. And then, you know, a lot of more hauled out over the Atlantic Ocean and dropped, right. And these were you talk about people with story who had the courage to want to stand up and reinvent democracy in that city and, and in that society.

59:52 And it was powerful work. And we made a big difference, you know, And I thought I was just a, you know, a small stone in a big pond. But I felt really proud that I had the chance to help them learn some things that continue to this day. And I could share other stories of places I've been doing that. And that's nonpartisan work. It's just caring about people and their families and communities. Yeah, how, how much of that have you done like outside of the country? Type stuff like some, some, some Eastern Europe stuff, you know, in places I remember this is even more interesting, at least to me. I was in Portugal.

1:00:36 I was talking about this, and I had an interpreter. And I could tell from the view of the people there that what I was sharing, when I was talking about building strong communities from the bottom up where you get local people engaged, I was getting kind of this kind of gloss over. And I finally said, you know, to the interpreter, what? What do you think's going on? And they said, yeah, there's a name for people like you. They called you subversives. And I thought, Oh my God, isn't that interesting that people are fearful and that we get boxed up when in fact, we're, you know, we are not subversive. We are just ordinary people listening to what people's dreams and discontents are that we want to act on, Right. And yet that that's what can go on as fear gets driven into a culture, That's what goes on.

1:01:28 We learn. We are very smart at learning how to read the signals and to avoid being drawn into things that are unsafe, right For us and our families, You, me, anybody else. And so, yeah, that's the real world. That's the real world. That is fascinating. So in that moment, they have a million things to say, but they're they won't say. What they won't say it. Because they've been ingrained that that is somebody fishing for something that Yep. Is dangerous and I experienced that even working for the city of Madison. My job was to improve. So I'm a 2 trick pony. One is community organizing, community building right? And the other half, I became institutionalized both as vice president of the company and also I worked for three mayors not in a political position.

1:02:21 My job was to improve everything we did. So I rode with refuse pickers to try and reduce back injuries. What would police officers to get them out of their cars, Learning how to walk in the neighborhood and meet the neighbors rather than sitting in a car getting fire trucks to fires faster. That was my my kind of work, right? And but I learned from that, that I'd go down to motor equipment to spend the day working with the guys. And I'd say, what kind of day is it? It's the best day of my life. I love it here. I only got 25 years left. That's the culture, right? And to get a relationship with those guys so that they would say, I'd say, So what can we do to make it better for you to work here?

1:03:04 Change. Well, Tom, you can get the damn windows cleared here so we can actually see in the vehicle, so we can, you know, see what parts are needed. I said when was the windows? Was the last time the windows? Is this plane been clean? Probably 10 years, 24 hours had those windows cleaned. Then when I sat down to him and said what else do you want done? And they'd say we can't get parts. Takes 27 days to get a part. But they're blaming us 'cause we're the mechanics. And so we flow charted the process for buying parts. 27 steps to buy a part, right? And the mechanic only has two.

1:03:44 He could make the order in the front and he could put it in at the end. But 27 steps right, Including a rule that if it was over $300.00, it had to go up to the comptroller's office to sign off on it. To make it 28. To me, you know, I mean, so I'm, I'm, I'm getting off a little bit. The change, what I've learned about change, whether you're inside an organization or in community, the importance of feeling that you can affect change and learning that should be part of what people learn in this society if we're serious about democracy and letting everybody have a chance to have a voice. Absolutely.

1:04:24 Yeah. And isn't that concept isn't that helpful, that quick feedback loop at the beginning to get people a little bit of gusto moving in the right direction, that little momentum, you know, you start with a little snowball. And it's like, I guarantee those mechanics in there, they see that happen in 48 hours. They're like, oh, Dang, I can see my parts. Next time Tom comes around having a conversation, those ears are going to be a little bit more perked up for. You. Yep, exactly, exactly. And and when one of the lead people there passed away, all the mechanics were Harley riders, right? They went up to his hometown Douglas Grave, and he was the guy who actually led the stuff that the change strategies.

1:05:07 So for them, it was more than it was an opportunity to actually say the things they couldn't say, right. I was giving them permission to say, you know, this ain't right. We, we can, we can suck it up. We can get by because we got good pay and good benefits. But this ain't right. We could be better mechanics if we did this and this and this and we open that up. And once we open that up, now the fear for politicians is they're going to be asking for things that, you know, but it's for the betterment. We saved a lot of money by improving the part systems down to three steps, 24 hour turn around. You got it down to three. Three steps from 27 steps turn around time went from 27 days first to 48 hours and then it went down to 24 hours. And they're the ones who chose to change it. They were thinking after I left working with them to move it from 48 to 24, they they improved another thing that made the difference so that that kind of stuff it really get well. It makes me want to do a podcast with you. You're.

1:06:17 Right, Yeah, yeah. And I'm glad we got there because I, you know, I don't enter these knowing everywhere I want to go. I enter these to have a conversation. But from talking on the phone, I remember you talking. That job sounds really interesting to me. And in that scenario specifically, I think you can pull out this bigger concept that has to be a good feeling that you've had throughout your career of like anytime change comes around, there's a certain percentage of people that are these immediate detractors, right? Like this is a bad idea. We don't want change. We don't want it. And then when you can leave a scenario that effectively and successfully and like clearly from 28 to three, there was a lot of unnecessary things happening there.

1:07:01 And when you can leave a scenario and it's not to say like it's not to do the rub in your face, like I told you that you shouldn't be, you shouldn't be glad I was here. It's no, it's not that. It's like there has to be so much satisfaction in that. Like getting over that perception of like, OK, let's push past this. I'm here to support you, let's do what's best for you. And then removing that, what whatever you want to call it, there's a bunch of proverbial things you could say. Removing the wall in front of somebody so they can keep walking forward. That job had to have so much of that. Well, it did. It did. And I fund. One of my rules of thumb is that 95% of people go to work every day, want to do great work. They may work in shitty systems that make it really hard to do great work.

1:07:52 So let's work on the system first rather than blaming Harry that it's his problem or Jane because she's, you know, not as fast as I am at doing things right. Work on the systems that make it bad for hard for people to do what they do. And I bet there's a lot of people out there listening who listen to your podcasts could say thumbs up on that because I got a whole lot of stuff in my job on this molding machine or, you know, packing sausages that I know could be done better. But it's not a place where I can say what I think could be done, because it's not a culture that would support that. What can that person do, Tom? That's a great question. That's a really good question.

1:08:33 Unless, you know, it's really hard when you're in those systems. I'll tell you, you, you, you know, it's kind of the old Kenny Rogers. You know, when to hold them, when to fold them, when to walk away. You got to make those calls in your life. You know, you may have reasons. You're going to just suck it up and you're going to keep leaning in on that job because that's the job in town. And that's what you can do, and you do it well to the best of your ability. But there are others who say, no, this is enough of this. I want to go someplace where they treat you right. You get to have some voice, right? And I can make a difference. So all of us have to make those calls in our lives, and I've made them. You've made them right.

1:09:13 We all do those things. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's such an important identification because the like the easy answer would have been to say, well, read this book and then do this. But the the important delineator there I think it is. And the the Kenny Rogers thing is a is a really good tangible, easy to understand example of that of like there's certain things that are going to be in in certain scenarios outside of your control. So not only having all these skills, knowing when to implement them and when it's good and when you can do it. Now, I would, I would venture to say that with enough curiosity, time and attention, even in those scenarios I've seen, you know, organizations not operating effectively, successfully, I've seen them change from the, from the ground up with a similar, you know, mindset, but or you know, a similar plan of action. And it might not be, you know, don't stand up from your machine and start hollering.

1:10:25 This is everything that's wrong. But take some of these concepts in, maybe maybe get a few people together, you know, that say, hey, this could be a little bit better and, and start leaving those little notes on the walls. And I think in a lot of scenarios you could make it bigger, better if you want to. That's a whole other thing. Like you said, some people are locked in where like if the if that's the spot to work in your small rural community town, let's try to make a change in there. If you're in Green Bay and every manufacturer here is looking for a person to come work and you're working at 1:00 and you're thinking, man, this could be a little bit better. Maybe just jump ship you know and and see. Yeah.

1:11:05 And I this might be a good time to just share the framework that the book is written around, if I could. Yes, please, because I think that's key after all these years of being around change and the book is around the basic framework is around community change is based on what I think are four things that have to you have to think about when you're going to try and create change, whether it's inside of a place or from a community, you know, as a citizen. And the first thing is you got to assess the desire. You may have a great idea, you may have something you really got to dream to make happen, but you got to know if there's other people who have that dream or not, because you could be one guy in a bar stool, you know, with a dream.

1:11:54 There's a lot of them down there at the tap room, right? But unless you can get other people, so you got to go out and assess whether or not there's enough will to make that happen. So that's number one desire. And then secondly, that's got to be combined with. So I would say to you, So what would you like to see happen? And then you'd have to be able to share with me some kind of a vision of what the hell it would look like if we actually made the change. Because if you can't figure that out, even if it's rough, a rough sketch, you got to have some idea. You know, it's like that bus store I said. And what would it look like if you could get on this bus, Lillian? Right. Well, the step might be a little lower.

1:12:35 The there'd be something I could hold on to when I'm going to get on. Right. OK, let's figure out how we're going to make that happen. So does understand the will or the desire to make it happen times The ability to create a vision and not just alone, but a shared vision. More people involved in the vision creation. So you got some power coming. Third element is power. How much power do you got to do something about this? You know, down in Blanchardville, where I farm South of Madison, every Wednesday afternoon, the euchre boys are down at the tap room and they're solving all the world's problems. So I don't worry about doge. I don't worry about any, you know, tariffs. Those guys got it nailed every Wednesday afternoon, but they don't get off of the bar stool or are at the card table, right? That's that's it.

1:13:22 So where do you going to get the power you're going to need to actually make the change? And I say there are two things that we talked about in the book that really make change from the bottom up. 1 is the strength of your relationships, those networks, how deep and broad are the relationships that you can bring together to effect the change? And are you willing to actually get out of the upper room and do something? A lot of people are good up till then. They know there's people who care about this thing, whatever it might be. They got a vision of what could be. They got a, you know, picture in their brain or a group of people do. And they think they may have a little power because they got networks and relationships, but they're never going to get out of the upper room and act.

1:14:08 And it takes those four things together. And those got to be stronger than the resistance because I don't care how good you think, whatever it is you want to do, you're going to be surprised by some people say not here, we're not going to do that. You're not you thinking about doing that here. We're not going to buy that. We don't work that way here. So you got to get ready for the resistance. And I'd rather anticipate it and help people anticipate it then react to it. So that's the framework that the book is built on. And each story is a story, as you know, related to each one of those elements. And if you're in in, in Denmark or Kewanee or Pulaski or wherever you're from, this little framework can really help you think about something you want to do and say, OK, do we have a deep enough will here to actually do this right? And do we have a vision of what we want it to look like if we do it?

1:15:08 And where's our power going to come from to make it happen? Relationships and willingness to act. And where was the resistance going to come from? That's it. It's that simple. It's never that easy, right? But it's that simple to actually create that kind of. And I want that for ordinary people to make a difference. That helped me a lot. The I algebraically isn't how my mind works. So like seeing the I kept trying to like go back and forth between the concepts and then the equations in the book. You sound like my wife. Yeah. I just want the stories. I just want the stories. Inherently, that's where I am, that's where I am, that's where my mind lives. But what a what an excellent cherry on top of the sundae we've put together today.

1:15:49 Tom I, I had the, the way I became aware of those push backs was living in a small Upper Peninsula community for seven years and moving in from, you know, having lived some other experiences in my life and having ideas that were like, this would be awesome. This would be a really cool idea for the community. And then, you know, whether it was I was on a radio show talking with somebody about wanted a, you know, forward thinking person who wanted to do this or whatever, and then just to see the other side come up and be like, we don't want that here. One of my one of my great friends is a a fly fishing guide in that town. Still, he's built an unbelievable business doing it there.

1:16:31 But at the beginning, a a town that, like most in the UP do are struggling economically, the shrinking, dwindling tax bases being harmful to the education system, that isn't creating a good environment there. And the my friend is a is a very, he's a dynamic change maker. You know, he, he's one of these people and just another excellent thing that could be for the community. And so he got so much pushback at the beginning from fishermen that didn't want him on the creeks bringing people there. And that was something so far of like, I'm an outdoorsman. I like fishing and hunting, but it was something so far from where mine my mind was at thinking about what he was trying to do. And ironically, he's a pastor as well. So like, you know, it's just funny how we come to learn those things.

1:17:22 But what a what a fantastic cherry on top of. It's my privilege to be here with you. Thank you. I would push back a little bit on that. I think the privilege was mine too. So appreciate your time, Tom. Thank you very much.