Tom Mosgaller - Community Building, Pulling Together, and Citizen Change - Ep. #44

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What's up friends, welcome back
to Rooted Wisconsin.

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Appreciate you for clicking
another episode.

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Appreciate you for being you.
If you're on video, you could

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see I'm waist deep in the
Wisconsin stream right now doing

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the intro before the episode
drops on Monday.

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And there's a few mosquitoes
flying around.

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So I'm going to jump into it.
Pumped up to share this episode

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today with Tom Muskala, author,
community builder, fascinating

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life path that we get into a lot
of in today's episode.

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Leaves his Door County family
farm at 12 years old for the

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seminary and that kicks off this
weaving wandering life path of

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just fascinating stops.
Gets drafted into Vietnam.

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We talked about that a little
bit comes back from Vietnam and

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here's about community building
and how we can impact

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communities positively.
Works in Chicago for a little

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while.
Awesome story of a project in

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Philadelphia where a group that
he headed up fought for

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accommodations on public
transportation which circled

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around and became relevant to
his life so many years later.

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Awesome story And the one of the
premises or the the undertones

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of his messaging is to give
people the skills to act on

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something you care about, your
dreams, your discontents,

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something where you can create
positive change in the world.

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And that's what Tom's all about,
giving people the tools and

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empowering them to do those
things.

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Huge shout out to our sponsors.
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All that being said, enjoy the
day.

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Enjoy the episode.
Tom Muscular.

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Tom Moss, Scholar, Thank you for
joining me.

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Thanks for saying my name right.
I did my.

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I did my homework, I did my
homework and I and I read most

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of your book.
I didn't get it finished yet.

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I heard you say earlier that
there's one from the UP.

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I'm not there yet.
Is it towards the end?

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The end story, the last story is
AUP story.

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OK, I'm excited to talk with
you.

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I'm excited to talk with you for
a couple reasons.

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Initially it was because of the
concept that that you and, and

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your co-author have kind of
brought to light.

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Now since we had a chance to
talk on the phone for a little

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while, it it's even more so just
to talk with you 'cause your

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story is fascinating.
So I've been waiting for this

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for a while and I, I think
where, where to start is

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conceptually we'll take the
calendar back in a little while

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and, and get to some of that
story.

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But I think I, I'd like to know
what, what, what brought you to

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this idea of writing this book?
How did you think of someone

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with ideological differences and
coming together to do something

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that you know, builds in a
different way than at least

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what's told to us on a, on a
daily basis?

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How'd you come up with it?
So it's not for me, it's not a

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new idea.
As somebody who's been a

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community builder most of his
life, whether I was working

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inside of an institution or in
community from the bottom up,

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it's always it's never been
about kind of IU them us,

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because you can't build strong
communities when you're always

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thinking about ideological
differences.

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You got to work on those things
you got in common things you can

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work on that make a difference
that really means something to

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people locally.
And so all my life, you know, I

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grew up in in with that is kind
of and and it started when I was

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a kid on the farm up in Door
County, right.

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I mean, we had to work together.
I'm old enough to know what it

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was like in the transition from
combining grain to back to

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thrashing.
We were just in the shift, right

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when I was in the 50 in the
1950s and farmers had to work

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together.
We had no choice.

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I mean, you had a butcher
together.

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You had to cut wood together.
You had to put your grain in.

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You know, we share sheet Cedars,
different equipment in order to

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do things, harvesting,
thrashing, all of that.

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You had to work together.
And so there were days when we

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were thrashing and I was a
little boy.

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I mean, our rule of thumb was
you couldn't drive a tractor

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until you were heavy enough to
push the clutch in.

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That was that was it.
So I probably was 7 when I

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started driving tractor, right?
I gained enough weight.

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And so I would be out in the
field where you're thrashing and

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you're pulling a wagon and
people are throwing bundles of

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grain onto the wagon.
And when we had good days,

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everybody'd be talking to
everybody else.

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And then the next day, I could
tell as a kid something was

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going on that I didn't know
about, where the Lutherans may

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be on one side of the wagons and
the Catholics on the other.

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And they didn't talk.
They didn't talk, but they

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didn't walk either.
They stayed getting the grain in

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'cause their farm was next in
line, you know.

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So you learn from those kind of
stories, right, Not to spend

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your time on the differences.
You learn.

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Yeah, we got differences.
Hell, they were.

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They have orange tractors.
We have green tractors.

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But you know, we all got to pull
together.

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Yeah.
So that's a concept I often

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think about is that do you think
that some of the that

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polarization or divide that we
see on a daily basis is because

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of some of those struggles look
different today than they did

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then there's they're not so
immediately apparent and there

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in our lives.
You know, it's hard to just kind

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of assume I know what the answer
is, right?

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But I do have my theories,
right, Which is it's a more

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complicated time and there's far
more noise in the system right

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now.
I mean, you've got a lot of

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forces pulling on you, and
depending upon where you get

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your information, you're going
to hear certain things that are

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going to drive the way you view
the world.

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And if you only listen to that,
right, it's going to set you up

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for a certain view of the world.
That only puts you into a deeper

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box in separation, right?
Yeah, and you have to make the,

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you have to make the mental
choice to get out of that.

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Box.
That's right.

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That's right.
Absolutely.

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I thought that was a perfect
place to start, but you segwayed

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me into where I wanted to get
next to seven, pushing that

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clutch in.
It wasn't too many years after

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that that you, I mean, still as
a, as a youthful young person,

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you made another choice that
left the farm, right?

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Yeah, I was 12 years old and I
remember, you know, we were not,

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we didn't have a lot of money.
We didn't have indoor plumbing

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at the time.
This was in the 50s, you know,

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everybody had outdoor plumbing
and we didn't have running water

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in the house.
I, we still had to go out to the

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pump to get water.
We had electricity in the house

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because of rural
electrification.

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So that took care of that part.
So there'd be light bulbs

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hanging around.
But you know, we didn't have a

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lot of those amenities.
You kind of.

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So anyway, you know, us farm
kids that people knew you didn't

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have that till you get on the
school bus.

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You sat in the front because
other kids made fun of you.

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And I think that affected me and
made me just say, you know, I

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don't need this.
I think I I can do some other

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things with my life.
And Sister Ursula at the

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Catholic school is passionate
for sure's to become missionary

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priests.
My eyes got really big.

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I said, holy cow, here's my
chance, right, To do something

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that I think would be really
exciting.

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And so I made the decision to go
to the seminary to be a priest

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at 12 years old.
So I spent four years in the

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seminary at Saint Asians,
Wisconsin, when that was a

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seminary.
And yeah, so the story goes on.

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But that was a major shift in my
life.

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And it was it was scary.
It was scary for my dad because

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for dad, it meant having to sell
a cow every year out of our 13

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cow herd, right?
And he would look at me but

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never say anything when he had
to sell that cow to pay our

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little share of that tuition to
the seminary.

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Wow.
You know, I felt real guilt to

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be, you know, to make the mark,
to be successful.

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You know, it was a heavy, it was
a heavy shift.

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And at 1213 years old, yeah, to
feel that, yeah.

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Yeah.
So man, I have so many questions

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just about that.
You know, it seemed and it's

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part of it as times changing,
right?

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But as a, you know, to have
family support of a 12 year old

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to make that decision, even
though you were feeling that

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guilt, had to be a powerful
driver too at that time, right?

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It was, it was, you know, when
it was my mom, my Irish Carmody

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mom who was the one driving for
me, you know, championing my

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doing it.
You know, my dad wanted me home.

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He needed me on the farm and I I
get that.

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But Mom was the one who helped
me make the make the bridge.

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Yeah, and that's the flip side
of the coin, right?

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How many siblings do you have?
Two brothers who are up on the

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farm.
Indoor county today still it's

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been in the farm since 1890 and
on Sunny Slope Rd.

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Sunny Slope farm just north of
of Carlsville.

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I love it.
Yeah.

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And that's the flip side of the
coin, right?

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That at that time, hands on deck
were needed at the farm.

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That's, you know, you pitch into
the family and and you go, what

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a what a heavy thing.
So what did those four years

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entail?
Did you get out of it what you

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thought, what you thought you
would as a 12 year old moving

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in?
Well, you know, there's a real

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discipline to going into a
seminary.

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Everything you're up at 5:00 in
the morning, you're, you know,

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go to Chapel, Black suit, white
shirt.

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I didn't, you know, we had to
buy things that my family could

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not either afford or had a, a
napkin ring, right?

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I mean, a napkin ring.
And, and I'm like, what the hell

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is a napkin ring?
My mom had to go ask an aunt who

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lived in the city who had a
napkin ring.

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We had to get all that stuff is
part of the list you get of the

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things you have to have to go to
the seminary.

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So it was a real eye opening
shift.

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You know your class of 80 kids
from all over the United States

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in a new place, right?
Living in a dorm with 120 other

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guys, you know, up at 5 in
church by 6, right in class by

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8.
It was, it was that had a rigor

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to it that I wouldn't have
probably gotten if I would have

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stayed home.
And I learned Latin and Greek,

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which ain't bad to know just in
terms of understanding the root

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of things in life.
Right.

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Yeah.
Yeah.

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And then this summer I'd go home
and, you know, pitch in on the

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farm and pick cherries and do
all the stuff a farm boy how to

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do.
Yeah, yeah, transformative

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years.
So then as that wraps up, what

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happens?
Yeah, after those four years, I

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just decided this this wasn't
going to be me, you know, I

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wasn't going to be a priest.
It just wasn't there.

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That wasn't the right thing for
me.

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So I went to Stevens Point and
played hockey and they gave me a

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degree.
They gave you one or your?

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Well, that's not true, but you
know, I helped start the program

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at Stevens Point.
We were the first ones to to get

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that program going at Point in
hockey, which has become a

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really good program.
Hockey program.

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Yeah.
And then after that, I got

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drafted into the during the
Vietnam time and spent 2 1/2

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years in the military and came
back from that and was trying to

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figure out what the hell I was
going to do.

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Right, Like a lot of us as young
people, not quite sure.

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And I learned about this thing
called community organizing.

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And I knew that was the kind of,
I knew I didn't want to be a

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social worker.
My friends kept saying, Tom, you

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got a record for the most
penalties at point.

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You're not going to be a social
worker.

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You got too much edge.
So I heard about this thing

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called community organizing.
And so I went down into Chicago

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and learn from people how you
learn the skills they don't

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00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:09,200
teach in school about civic life
and how you can make a

226
00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:13,680
difference by teaching people
about change and how you can

227
00:13:13,680 --> 00:13:16,840
make a difference.
And it was driven by a lot of

228
00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:21,320
faith-based organizations, both
Jewish, Catholic, Muslim, all

229
00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:24,080
kinds of institutions that came
together to work on things to

230
00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:28,320
help families improve the
quality of life in cities.

231
00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:33,240
And I did that for 15 years,
Chicago, Philadelphia, central

232
00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:37,760
Pennsylvania, organizing after a
big flood in central PA to help

233
00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:40,200
families keep their homes, blah,
blah, blah.

234
00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:45,560
So it was it was a real learning
about power and change that I

235
00:13:45,560 --> 00:13:47,520
will never regret.
I mean, it was.

236
00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:51,000
So yeah, most people don't get
that chance.

237
00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:56,160
Yeah.
And we we walk these paths that

238
00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:59,360
sometimes seem they're written
for us and sometimes they seem

239
00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:01,520
that we have this autonomy or
choice.

240
00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:03,440
But, you know, do we or not?
I don't know.

241
00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:08,600
But I think it's pretty poignant
that you, that you glossed over

242
00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:15,360
spending 2 1/2 years in Vietnam
and like that amalgam of diverse

243
00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:18,280
experiences that you had in
those transformative years, I

244
00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:21,360
think probably led to some of
that efficacy of what you've

245
00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:24,640
done in your career for the, for
a lot of, in a lot of different

246
00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:27,040
ways.
And I want to go back and linger

247
00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:29,720
on that for a second because I'm
not surprised that it happened

248
00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:34,280
because I like I've had a lot of
conversations with different

249
00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:39,680
Vietnam Veterans and a lot of
times it is that it's glossing

250
00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:43,160
over it.
It is, it's not, it's not the

251
00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:47,080
depth of discussion isn't there.
And I think some of it comes

252
00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:50,840
from just that, that divisive
scenario in itself.

253
00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:54,480
And what it was right is that is
that often how it it comes up in

254
00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:56,200
conversation for you?
Do you think is it something

255
00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:59,240
that comes and goes?
Well, it's always in the back of

256
00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:02,200
my head.
I, I'm still, I'm still actively

257
00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:07,640
involved in farmers and veterans
as a coalition to try and help

258
00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:13,120
Afghan and Iraqi people coming
back who have a lot of issues

259
00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:16,200
having dealt with that, which I
won't go into now.

260
00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:21,160
But it's important to help other
veterans try and get themselves

261
00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:28,720
back in civic life in a useful
way because no matter where you

262
00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:31,840
were in the military, you have
some common bond around, you

263
00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:35,080
know, the importance of mission
in life, whatever that mission

264
00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:37,680
is at any given time, you
appreciate it.

265
00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:41,840
So I'm going to share one quick
story because I, I around that

266
00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:44,200
time.
So after basic training at Fort

267
00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:46,800
Campbell, actually right here in
Green Bays where I first got to

268
00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:50,000
ride an airplane in order to go
down to Fort Campbell.

269
00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:53,240
I mean, I'd never been on a
plane, you know, And Dad drops

270
00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:57,480
me off and Sturgeon Bay and get
on the bus at 5:00 in the

271
00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:00,560
morning, hold me down here to
Green Bay, get on my first

272
00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:02,520
airplane, take me down to Fort
Campbell.

273
00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:07,400
I get off that airplane and
there's 80 guys standing there

274
00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:09,760
all.
And that was in the late 60s.

275
00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:13,560
Long hair beads around their
neck, right?

276
00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:16,800
Paisley pants.
I mean, this was a motley grue.

277
00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:20,600
And the guy calls me out the the
drill Sergeant says, muscular,

278
00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:25,520
muscular, come up here.
And so I stepped up and he said,

279
00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:28,160
do you play hockey?
I said, yes, I did.

280
00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:30,400
He said, your captain, right?
I said, yes, Sir.

281
00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:32,400
Then I'm going to put these
stripes on you.

282
00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:37,760
And from day one in the
military, I, they put stripes on

283
00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:43,360
me as a Sergeant and I, and he
said, your first job to prove

284
00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:46,120
that you're worthy of leading
this group is to take them and

285
00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:50,720
get their hair cut.
I thought, Oh my God, one thing

286
00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:53,040
these guys don't want us to have
their head shaved.

287
00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:55,920
And here I am.
I've got to take them and get

288
00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:58,200
their head shaved.
And I think about that often

289
00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:03,640
times of what a significant act
of change that was to lead these

290
00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:06,960
guys over to get their haircuts.
Then I let them, you know, I was

291
00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:11,079
their leader in basic training
for, you know, all of basic

292
00:17:11,079 --> 00:17:13,160
training.
And we won the Leadership Award

293
00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:15,119
in the battalion 8 weeks in a
row.

294
00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:19,520
And I can't take any credit for
that, but it said something

295
00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:22,680
about the culture we created
with our unit.

296
00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:24,400
We really built a strong
culture.

297
00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:26,359
And then I went on to military
police school.

298
00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:31,160
God knows how they chose me for
that, but it was a military

299
00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:36,160
police Sergeant is what my time
was in the military with 80 guys

300
00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:38,440
usually that I was responsible
for.

301
00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:42,000
What an amazing story.
So.

302
00:17:42,120 --> 00:17:45,160
And do you think it was truly
'cause you just 'cause you had

303
00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:47,840
played hockey?
I don't they would have looked

304
00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:50,600
at something more than that
college graduate.

305
00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:54,840
Probably they they would have
seen that as another

306
00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:57,160
contributing.
They were looking for people.

307
00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:59,640
I was a little older.
Most of these guys were right.

308
00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:02,800
I died out of high school that
were, you know, being drafted.

309
00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:06,400
I was 23, so I was a little
older.

310
00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:10,840
I'd been to college.
I had played sports and done a

311
00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:13,360
lot of things in my life.
So I think there was a

312
00:18:13,360 --> 00:18:15,680
combination of things that
resulted in that.

313
00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:18,760
But once you take on that
leadership, it really makes a

314
00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:21,040
difference in how you view the
world.

315
00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:23,840
And it affected me ever since.
Absolutely.

316
00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:25,800
Yeah.
And then you didn't.

317
00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:27,640
You didn't.
You can't correct that guy for

318
00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:31,320
saying your name wrong.
No, that's right.

319
00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:33,880
Second time that jokes come up
and that's actually with a, with

320
00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:35,360
a person.
I'm excited to connect you with

321
00:18:35,360 --> 00:18:39,440
another friend of the podcast,
Jake from DC Farm for Vets, very

322
00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:41,440
similar thing.
So I'm excited for you all to

323
00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:45,400
have that conversation.
But yeah, I, I just, I like to,

324
00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:47,800
I always like to dig a little
bit when I get the chance in

325
00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:52,160
that scenario because obviously
I wasn't around at that time.

326
00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:55,640
But you hear the stories, you
read the stories and some of the

327
00:18:55,640 --> 00:19:00,160
places I've got in conversation
with other Vietnam vets, there

328
00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:06,840
is so much heaviness there that
I think some, and you know, not

329
00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:11,040
all, you can't stereotype or
whatever, but some feel the need

330
00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:15,320
to keep it compressed and stuck
inside.

331
00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:18,720
And I think for a lot of
reasons, same reason I start the

332
00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:20,080
podcast.
I think some of that stuff needs

333
00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:22,640
is good to climb out once in a
while.

334
00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:25,120
Well, I keep contributing.
I mean, I think if you keep

335
00:19:25,120 --> 00:19:29,360
leaning in and helping others,
you don't spend so much time

336
00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:31,960
dwelling on whatever experiences
you had.

337
00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:33,280
Absolutely.
Yeah.

338
00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:36,320
OK.
So that sets the foundation and

339
00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:44,640
then how then when you get back
from that experience, what do

340
00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:48,360
you remember, what the the first
step in the direction of

341
00:19:48,360 --> 00:19:52,240
community building was like?
How'd you, how'd you land on it?

342
00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:55,600
How'd you decide it might be for
you and then grow into it?

343
00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:57,760
Yeah, that's a really good
framing of that.

344
00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:01,400
I, you know, I came back, I
didn't know what the heck I was

345
00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:04,920
going to do.
I was, I was up on the farm for

346
00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:07,160
a few months just trying to help
dad and.

347
00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:09,880
Regain relationships with
everybody there.

348
00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:15,040
And I came down here to Green
Bay, to the Job Corps office,

349
00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,320
right?
And the guys interviewing me and

350
00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:20,960
he says, Gee, would you like to
work here at the Job Corps?

351
00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:24,840
You'd be really good doing, you
know, placement of people in the

352
00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:28,080
Job Corps.
And I said, well, that's a

353
00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:29,920
wonderful awful.
Let me think about it in a

354
00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:31,800
minute.
And so I walked outside and I

355
00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:34,920
looked at that building and I
said, shit, I can't see the

356
00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:38,280
rest.
My next 20 years in this Job

357
00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:40,400
Corps building.
It's just not me.

358
00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:44,680
And so I kind of got my courage
up and went back in to tell him,

359
00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:47,120
you know, I don't think I want
to do this.

360
00:20:47,120 --> 00:20:50,360
And the phone rang and it was
someone from the University of

361
00:20:50,360 --> 00:20:54,640
Wisconsin Green Bay who said,
we're starting a new program to

362
00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:58,480
take students and move them into
communities all across the state

363
00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:02,840
to work on things that they
could help improve the quality

364
00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:07,240
of life of people in inner city
Milwaukee up on the reservation

365
00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:11,240
working the migrant camps.
And I said, I overheard that

366
00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:13,520
phone call.
And I said to the guy, I want

367
00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:18,120
that job.
And so he said, oh, man, you

368
00:21:18,120 --> 00:21:20,680
sure?
I says, yeah, I want to do that.

369
00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:23,880
And so I went out to UWGB,
walked into the office of the

370
00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:26,360
guy running it, and I
interviewed.

371
00:21:26,360 --> 00:21:28,640
And.
And so I spent the next year

372
00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:34,480
helping get that program started
for students at UWGB to go work

373
00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:35,840
in communities all across
straight.

374
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:39,480
It was a great experience.
And that set me up for wanting

375
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:44,520
to do community building work.
Yeah, by the grace of God, Right

376
00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:46,600
By the grace of God.
Seriously, that's one.

377
00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:48,440
Yeah.
That's one of those things that

378
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:52,080
makes you, well, harkening back
to what I said earlier about,

379
00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,080
you know, do you walk the path
that's there for you or do you

380
00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:58,160
have this autonomy, something
like that?

381
00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:00,360
Yeah.
Is so that phone call happens

382
00:22:00,360 --> 00:22:03,000
when you go back in to tell them
that you don't want.

383
00:22:03,360 --> 00:22:05,960
I don't want this job.
I don't want this job.

384
00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:06,960
That's amazing.
That's.

385
00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:10,120
Amazing, Tom.
Yeah, but you know, when your

386
00:22:10,120 --> 00:22:13,960
gut, you know, you're old enough
at that time, 2425, you know if

387
00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:16,880
it's not, if it ain't even close
to right.

388
00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:18,400
Oh, absolutely right.
Yep.

389
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:22,720
Yep, and then sometimes we still
act in the opposite direction

390
00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:24,240
and then even regret it even
more.

391
00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:28,000
Exactly after you try.
To force something, yeah, make

392
00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:32,600
it to happen.
And that often is a that's a

393
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:36,120
fruitless attempt at something
that it doesn't help to force.

394
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:40,400
OK, so you do a year for that,
you grow these chops.

395
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,040
And I'm sure there were trials
and tribulations within that,

396
00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:50,160
but probably what you you grew
or the seeds sprouted of that,

397
00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:53,720
of what that career could be.
And then what's your next step?

398
00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:55,160
Well, that's a really good
point.

399
00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:58,840
And, and I think I learned what
I didn't know right here.

400
00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:03,440
I am trying to help young people
in college work in places like

401
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:07,120
on the, you know, reservation or
in migrant camps.

402
00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,840
And I, I don't pretend that I
know those cultures, right?

403
00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:12,840
I didn't know how to do that
stuff, right.

404
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:15,320
I had some experience,
obviously, in the military.

405
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:18,600
You're rubbing up against all
kinds of characters from all

406
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:23,680
over the world, you know, But I
just decided I got to, I got to

407
00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:27,640
learn more.
I got to know more about change.

408
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:29,760
I've got to know more about
power.

409
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:35,400
And so I heard about people who
do community organizing in

410
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:39,880
Chicago and I just went down
there and met with them and, and

411
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:44,360
became part of an effort in
Chicago, the Crosstown

412
00:23:44,360 --> 00:23:48,320
Expressway that all of us drive
now through Chicago at that time

413
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:50,880
was being built.
And some planning department

414
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:54,280
person had drawn a line and it
went right through all these

415
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:56,600
parishes, all these
neighborhoods, They just cut

416
00:23:56,600 --> 00:24:00,240
them wide open, didn't care
about, you know, anything.

417
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:05,640
And we, I learned how to
organize by helping people in

418
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:10,560
those neighborhoods organize to
make sure that that was done in

419
00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:15,120
a way that did not destroy the
ethnic neighborhoods and the

420
00:24:15,120 --> 00:24:18,920
various communities.
So when you when you drive down

421
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:22,440
through Chicago now and you see
some curves and some, you know,

422
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:26,680
changes, I can say, Yep, we went
up against the original mayor

423
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,040
daily to fight for those
neighborhoods to improve.

424
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:32,920
Keep that.
And I learned so much by doing

425
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:36,920
that, so much about civic life
and the kind of people who will

426
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:41,320
stand up and separate themselves
from others and be courageous

427
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:46,000
about not letting a large city
just decide what's important for

428
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:48,720
residents.
Absolutely.

429
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:51,320
Is there Is is your name on one
of those curves?

430
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:54,120
That'd be awesome.
No, no.

431
00:24:54,120 --> 00:24:57,840
Most of us community builder
types, we stay quite quiet

432
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:00,880
about, you know, we celebrate in
private, you know?

433
00:25:01,120 --> 00:25:03,160
Yeah, yeah.
So that first experience down

434
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:07,640
there doing that, what, how, how
did, how did you, how did that,

435
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:11,240
how was that a way you made
money?

436
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:13,960
Was it a non through a nonprofit
organization?

437
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:17,880
Or how did, how did that turn
into like, how did you deem that

438
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:20,440
a career, you know?
Yeah, that's a good point.

439
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:24,120
So there are faith bears,
networks that do community

440
00:25:24,120 --> 00:25:27,280
building as part of their
justice commitment, right.

441
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:31,800
And so the Catholic churches,
Protestant churches have that

442
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:38,800
kind of justice bent to them.
And actually after about 6-8

443
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,200
months in Chicago, they said,
Tom, I think you're ready.

444
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,960
We we've got an opportunity in
Philadelphia where you could go

445
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:49,520
in as a number, what we would
call a #2 to learn, be a novice

446
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:51,760
organizer.
We're trying to do some

447
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,680
organizing in Philadelphia.
And the churches, the

448
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:58,200
synagogues, the mosques have all
come together to try and help

449
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:00,640
make that happen.
And they put up the seed money

450
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:04,240
to answer your question.
They put up enough money for me

451
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:09,200
to have two years in order to
establish something in that

452
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:11,080
community.
And so I went to Philadelphia.

453
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,400
I'd never been there, you know,
parachuted in there And being,

454
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,800
you know, young, I just said
three years from now we're going

455
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,400
to have a major organization
here in Philadelphia.

456
00:26:21,360 --> 00:26:26,440
I'm like, wow, did you say that?
You know, and, and I wrote it up

457
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:32,080
actually as part of a, a, a
story in a book that not the one

458
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,280
I'm talking about today.
But anyway, yeah.

459
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,800
And, and they said to me, Tom,
we're going to start by

460
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,960
organizing the elderly.
And I thought, oh, no, I don't

461
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,960
want to work with old people.
I'm 24 years old.

462
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:49,600
I don't want to work with old
people and so I ended up

463
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:53,680
organizing elderly and three
years later we had a network of

464
00:26:53,680 --> 00:27:01,040
270 neighborhood groups, church
based groups that were organized

465
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:05,560
across city, had our founding
convention and there was close

466
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:09,760
to 2500 people there as
delegates from all the

467
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:13,280
neighborhoods, the communities,
the faith-based and it had

468
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:15,480
power.
It really could do things.

469
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:19,400
We could turn out a thousand
1500 people on the drop of a hat

470
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,800
because they loved it.
It was so much fun.

471
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:27,280
We were the first day, first
ones to get accommodation bars

472
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:31,760
on the city buses so that people
with disabilities could get on

473
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:34,280
buses.
We had them lower the buses, bus

474
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,400
step by 6 inches, put grab bars
on the buses.

475
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:39,880
Amazing.
In hindsight, everybody says,

476
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,040
well, that's just part of the
way things are.

477
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,640
They weren't in the 70s They
weren't.

478
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:48,680
We helped get that started.
Yeah, and that's one of the

479
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:52,200
poignant stories from the book,
a similar lens of the If I

480
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,600
remember it's.
A quadriplegic, Yes.

481
00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:03,320
Who ended up overcoming all
these obstacles of that to

482
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:05,760
become a teacher.
But I think the the piece that

483
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:08,640
sticks in my mind and I think
will for a lot who read the book

484
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:14,360
was the pre cutouts and
sidewalks.

485
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:21,240
Curb cuts and yeah.
Yeah, so pre those or like her

486
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:26,440
experience even with, you know,
she overcome all that, overcame

487
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,480
all those things to become a
teacher and then had the

488
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:32,800
interview where someone asked
her how are you going to use the

489
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:33,920
bathroom?
Right.

490
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,000
That is gut wrenching.
Isn't it?

491
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:42,120
Yeah.
And I think that's one of the

492
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:46,520
many things that you all did a
great job with of taking down.

493
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,720
That's one of those barriers
that takes, that's one of those

494
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:53,280
things that takes down the
barrier between ideological

495
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:55,120
difference.
I think you're absolutely right.

496
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,760
Like if that.
If you don't read those words

497
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:04,280
and get moved by empathy for
that person, it's going to be

498
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:07,880
tough to sway you anyway in any
direction or have any type.

499
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:12,360
But yeah, that's all I So having
recently read the book.

500
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:15,760
I don't think it recently
matters though, because in

501
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:19,000
talking with you, that's one of
those stories that like if I

502
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,320
think about an access bar or a
holding bar in a bus, I'm always

503
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,120
going to think of that story.
Well, and part of the lessons in

504
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:28,880
that story was, you know, I was
young and arrogant and I thought

505
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,040
the first thing we're going to,
one of the things we were going

506
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,440
to take on was getting reduced
fares because the older people

507
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,280
didn't have the money or the
disabled people to even ride the

508
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:40,120
buses.
I think at that time it was like

509
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,080
$0.35 to ride the bus.
And when your Social Security

510
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:47,880
check was maybe 75 bucks a
month, $0.35 to ride to come to

511
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,480
gatherings or, or just go to
church or go to your

512
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:53,800
neighborhood center was, you
know, they couldn't afford to go

513
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:58,080
there to get a hot meal.
And so I'm saying, well, let's

514
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:02,280
take on the bus company.
And all these people are looking

515
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:04,360
at each other saying, where's
this kid from?

516
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,320
Right.
And and they said, Tom, come

517
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,040
down to the corner with us.
So we went down to the corner

518
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,440
and Lillian Holiday, African
American woman, said, watch me

519
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,600
try and get on the bus.
And so Lillian went up.

520
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,640
There's about 10 of us standing
there, and she tries to get on

521
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:21,280
the bus.
And there's no grab bar.

522
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,960
The step is too high.
She's got arthritic arthritis,

523
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:26,600
and she's trying to get on the
bus.

524
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:29,880
And this guy driving the bus
glares down with his sunglasses

525
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,400
on and said, you getting on or
you getting off, lady?

526
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:37,120
And he slams the door.
And Lillian says that is what we

527
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,120
got to do first.
We can do this.

528
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:45,120
We can make the buses accessible
and that's what we did 1st.

529
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,680
And once we won that, then they
said, Tom, I think we're ready

530
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:51,680
to take on the bus company and
see if we can get reduced fares

531
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:54,840
for older people and disabled.
And we did.

532
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:59,680
And we were able to get half
fares for elderly and disabled

533
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,600
first in the country to be able
to do that.

534
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:07,240
And I did consulting recently in
Philly and I was riding in from

535
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:11,200
the airport on the on the train
into Reading Terminal downtown.

536
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:14,960
And the guy taking tickets looks
at me and says, you look like

537
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:19,400
you're older.
And I said, yes, I probably am.

538
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,480
Why are you asking?
He says, 'cause we got this

539
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,320
thing here in Philadelphia where
you can get half price on the

540
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,600
bus.
And this is 35 years or 40 years

541
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:29,880
ago.
And I'm like, Oh my God, I get

542
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:33,840
the benefit 40 years later of
having worked on that issue with

543
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:35,840
these people.
But, you know, those are

544
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:40,080
wonderful stories in life of
people, people stepping up, you

545
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:42,120
know, and it was not
ideological.

546
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:44,720
It was not left, right.
It was not polarized.

547
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:47,800
It was black people, white
people.

548
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:51,440
It was they just needed to be
able to do stuff in the world.

549
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,560
And this was standing in the way
of their having a full life.

550
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,360
Yeah, It took away those front
descriptors.

551
00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:58,800
It's just people.
Yeah.

552
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:02,320
That's an amazing story, man.
That's an amazing story.

553
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:05,920
Dan, could you, could you, like,
take a walk around so our key

554
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,200
lights come back on?
Thank you.

555
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:12,240
We'll let him do this and then I
got the next part.

556
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:16,880
We doing OK?
Yeah, we're doing great.

557
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:30,720
Thank you.
Yeah.

558
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:35,400
So I think I don't want to take
it for granted or or take the

559
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,560
just the make the assumption
that community organizing or

560
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,120
community building is is
descriptive enough for people to

561
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:45,440
know what it is.
So what's your definition of it?

562
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:53,800
Well, you know, this is where my
co-author Pastor Mike and I have

563
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,400
difference.
I believe you scrub off and I I

564
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:58,960
just speak up that I'm a
community organizer.

565
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:05,920
But Mike, you know, is a non
denominational evangelical

566
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:09,400
pastor who lives in a small
rural community.

567
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,320
And he said, if you use the word
community organizing here,

568
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:16,120
that'll be a flag word Tom.
And I respect that.

569
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:20,000
If if that's what Mike feels
will stop people from coming

570
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,560
into conversation, you can call
me Tom.

571
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:26,680
I don't care, right?
My main thing is, is that things

572
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,320
you care about in this world,
whether your kid gets a good

573
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:33,320
education or grandma has a good
nursing facility to live in,

574
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:36,440
right?
Or you got good feed for your

575
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,160
cattle.
I mean, that's what I care about

576
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:40,720
and I don't care what you label
it.

577
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:45,360
What I care about is, is that
people know how to actually act

578
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:48,720
in public life and be effective
with civic life.

579
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:51,360
Because I think a lot of people
are defeated because they don't

580
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:54,720
know how to interact or
intersect around things.

581
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,200
They have dreams or discontents
that they want to do something

582
00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:58,600
about.
Absolutely.

583
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:01,240
Or feel completely powerless.
Feel powerless.

584
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:03,160
Absolutely powerless.
Yeah.

585
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:07,280
And I think that's a large part
of it, right, is kind of not

586
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:09,960
delivering that power, but
delivering the prospect.

587
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,280
Yeah, what can I do?
What can I do about that?

588
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,320
Right.
And you know, the word here goes

589
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:18,760
my Latin, but the word power
comes from the Latin word pose

590
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:22,880
POSSE.
It means the ability to act, all

591
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:23,560
right.
It's ability.

592
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:28,080
It's a neutral term.
It's not, you know, pejorative

593
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:30,040
in any way.
It's just neutral.

594
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:32,880
You got some power.
I got some power, little power.

595
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,080
But if we put it together with a
lot of other folk, we can make a

596
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:38,960
difference.
We can make change happen that

597
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:42,560
we care about.
And that that's what I really

598
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:46,239
tried to help people appreciate
and not get caught in our

599
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:51,719
ideological boxes.
And Mike and I, that's part of

600
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:54,840
why we wrote the book together.
We may have ideological

601
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:59,040
differences, but it doesn't
separate us from working on make

602
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:02,560
sure the Creek is clean.
So, you know, and that we got a

603
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:06,600
swimming pool in, in his
hometown, right?

604
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:09,560
Those kind of things so that you
can attract young people back in

605
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:12,840
the rural communities struggling
to get young people back home.

606
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:15,440
Yeah, yeah, another great story
from the book with the

607
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:18,040
childcare.
Ah, yes, yeah.

608
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:20,680
But that's something we have to
talk to you today.

609
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:23,400
I'm excited to learn how to.
How did you and Mike come

610
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:25,880
together?
I think I read somewhere, it

611
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:27,560
might have even been in the book
that you've been friends for

612
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:31,080
quite some time now.
But how does that, how did that

613
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:33,600
relationship start?
And how do you get to the point

614
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:36,520
where you realize that you're
going to write a book together?

615
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:43,160
Yeah, so I I just wanted being a
rural farm kid, I wanted to take

616
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:47,760
what I knew about organizing,
but to apply it back home here

617
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:50,440
in my home state.
So after organizing in

618
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:54,280
Philadelphia and cutting my
teeth on some major organizing

619
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,760
in central PA, I got the
opportunity to come back to

620
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:03,360
Wisconsin to organize.
And I wanted to take what I had

621
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:07,400
learned into small towns and
rural areas because that's what

622
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:12,440
I know best.
And so in the 1980s, when the

623
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:16,080
interest rates went way through
the roof and farmers were

624
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:21,080
leaving the land left and right,
I helped start something called

625
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:24,080
the Wisconsin Rural Development
Center out of Black Earth

626
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:26,200
Wisconsin.
We were in the basement of the

627
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:32,760
local bank and we worked on
things to help keep farmers on

628
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:35,920
the land.
We worked on how we can help

629
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:40,640
farmers get reduced cost
mortgages with succession

630
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:42,760
planning to hand off their farms
to others.

631
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:46,600
We worked on, you know, way
before people were thinking

632
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:48,920
about it, the whole idea of
farmers markets as an

633
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:54,160
alternative to kind of commodity
selling a product.

634
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:58,120
And so, you know, every time I
go up to the square in Madison

635
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:01,800
and there's 20,000 people
walking around, I pinch myself

636
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:06,080
because those kind of markets
have a whole supply chain of

637
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:10,840
people that are in business
because there are alternative

638
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:14,480
markets to putting your cattle
on a in a feed lot, right.

639
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:18,320
So not that either of them are,
I'm not making pejorative about

640
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,120
which is right.
I'm just saying we need options,

641
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:24,480
people need options and and we
can provide that.

642
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:28,680
So that was one of the reasons I
ran into Mike.

643
00:37:28,720 --> 00:37:34,080
He was in Richland Center where
he's a pastor and him and I just

644
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:37,840
hit it off around the things we
agree on, not what we don't

645
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:39,480
agree on.
We don't spend a lot of time

646
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,000
there.
You know, he wrestled at the UW.

647
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:46,680
So I was naturally attracted to
a guy who's a wrestler and, and

648
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:51,120
I played hockey and then played
rugby and Philly and, you know,

649
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,600
on the East Coast.
And so, you know, we, we know

650
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:57,320
how to bang around a little bit.
And so Mike and I really hit it

651
00:37:57,320 --> 00:37:59,240
off.
And he, he had a dream for that

652
00:37:59,240 --> 00:38:02,800
community.
And so over 10 years, he built

653
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:07,320
something that I helped support
called Southwest Partners.

654
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:12,160
And Southwest Partners has been
a driving force in Richland

655
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:15,840
County for change.
And it's made-up of citizens

656
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,760
who, you know, got dreams or
discontents they want to do

657
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:24,040
something about and non
ideological, not politically

658
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:27,200
motivated, just we want to have
a homeless shelter here.

659
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:30,120
We want to do something about
people who are out on, you know,

660
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:34,640
needing a hand up.
So, yeah, so that's how I got to

661
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:36,600
know Mike.
And we've, you know, we've had

662
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:39,360
our little pushes and shovings
around when we rub up against a

663
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:43,360
little ideological difference.
But that the one thing Mike and

664
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:45,240
I are never going to step away
from the table.

665
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:49,880
I learn a lot by listening to
him and he does hopefully for me

666
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:52,240
as a result.
And that's what we got to do

667
00:38:52,240 --> 00:38:55,520
more.
If we just cannot continue to

668
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:58,560
get deeper and deeper in
polarization, absolutely it's

669
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:01,080
going to kill us all.
Absolutely, yeah.

670
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:05,960
And the bulk of the time, I
mean, I hesitate to say all the

671
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:08,280
time, but the bulk of the time
it comes from long form

672
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:10,400
conversation and staying at the
table.

673
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:15,720
And you know, a lot of the kind
of like when we're the external

674
00:39:15,720 --> 00:39:19,360
or the third party viewing it
one, it's very easy to walk away

675
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:21,320
from the table.
You turn the TV off, you click

676
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:24,080
the X on the Internet, whatever
you, you walk away.

677
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:27,680
But even in conversation with
our friends, our neighbors, our

678
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:33,560
family, that's I think much more
the go to now is we don't go

679
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:35,280
there.
And if it comes up, we're out.

680
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:37,800
We walk away.
Once it once it's something that

681
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:40,840
kind of butts up against what we
think and believe.

682
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:46,640
And I completely agree with you
that that staying at the table

683
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,040
is really important.
Yeah, it's really important.

684
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:50,680
So when does the book come up
then?

685
00:39:50,720 --> 00:39:53,200
Well, first I got to share a
quick story just triggered for

686
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:57,840
me, which, you know, I'm a big,
I study history a lot.

687
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:01,880
And so there was a point where
Abraham Lincoln was in the state

688
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:06,120
legislature in Illinois, and he
went in and there was some guy

689
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:08,560
ranting.
Totally in opposition to

690
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:10,840
something he cared about.
And he came back to his law

691
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:14,360
office, to his partner and he
said, I really don't like that

692
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:18,600
guy.
I'm going to have to learn who

693
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:23,520
he is.
I've got to learn his story.

694
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:26,920
And I have found out over my
many years doing community

695
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:31,200
building work, you got to know
somebody's story before you call

696
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:35,560
him out or you make your choice
to not walk alongside him,

697
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:37,760
right?
Because once you hear people's

698
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:40,800
stories and you say, well, I can
figure out even I don't agree

699
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:44,800
necessarily, I can figure out
how he came to where he is.

700
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:49,240
I may not agree with it, but I
at least appreciate where he got

701
00:40:49,240 --> 00:40:52,600
his information, what story in
his life may have led him to

702
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:54,520
that.
And I'm sorry that happened or

703
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:57,720
I'm glad that happened.
But if you don't hear other

704
00:40:57,720 --> 00:41:00,840
story, if you're not willing to
sit down and listen to the other

705
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:05,160
person's story, you're not even
giving it a chance to be part of

706
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:07,440
a community.
Yeah, absolutely.

707
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:12,360
That's so poignant.
I mean, and so you think of

708
00:41:12,720 --> 00:41:16,680
like, I think that happens often
times in conversation where you

709
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:20,560
come to this point where or you
know, even if it's your first

710
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:24,160
impression with somebody else,
you see it and we just

711
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:28,480
immediately put it in the lens
of that person presently in us.

712
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:32,120
But we're all this, we're all
this, you know, a bag of bones

713
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:34,560
that had all these things that
happened to us up to a point in

714
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:38,520
life that shapes our thoughts,
shapes our opinions, shapes how

715
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:41,920
we share them.
And without knowing that,

716
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:46,200
without it, it's really easy to
tape it up in a box and say,

717
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:49,320
well, that's wrong or that's not
what needs to happen.

718
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:56,600
But you know, I, I would say
that there the value, there's

719
00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:59,800
more value in in the story to
get there than the actual

720
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:05,400
opinion, because that's where
you can determine and make aware

721
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:08,320
even of triggering in somebody's
mind.

722
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:13,960
Like, Oh yeah, you know, this is
something that maybe has me

723
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:17,240
believing something that maybe I
don't need to or I can have a

724
00:42:17,240 --> 00:42:21,600
different lens on what a story.
Yeah, when I'm, you know, when

725
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:24,000
you're doing community building
work, you're always out there

726
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:26,600
doing kind of what you're doing
right now, which is you're the

727
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:30,360
one doing the the one-on-one
with someone and you're.

728
00:42:30,720 --> 00:42:33,640
So tell me more about that.
Why did that, How did that

729
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:35,040
happen?
How did that affect you?

730
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:39,680
How did it affect your family?
My God, that's amazing that you

731
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:43,520
went through that experience.
I can see why you feel the way

732
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:45,800
you do.
You know, we may have a

733
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:48,280
different view on that, but I
sure as hell understand it

734
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:51,800
better when I understand you and
why you are the way you do.

735
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:54,640
And you still, you care about
wanting to clean up the Creek,

736
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:56,040
right?
Let's go work on it.

737
00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:59,120
Yeah.
Get by it man, get by it.

738
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:01,160
Yep.
You know what's fascinating

739
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:07,120
about that, Tom, is I had no
idea until reading your book.

740
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:11,640
And I owe you a debt of
gratitude because of that.

741
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:16,640
Because prior to you reaching
out and learning about what you

742
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:20,000
do, I had, I had a vision of
what I wanted rooted or what I

743
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:26,120
want rooted Wisconsin to be.
But it was, it still is.

744
00:43:26,240 --> 00:43:30,960
It's not obviously probably
never will be complete, but it

745
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:33,920
was.
So I, I tell everybody, we share

746
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:36,520
the stories of the people
driving Wisconsin business,

747
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:40,400
community and culture.
I, I created this because I love

748
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:42,720
our area of the country.
I wanted to shine this positive

749
00:43:42,720 --> 00:43:45,240
spotlight on it.
There are wonderful people on

750
00:43:45,240 --> 00:43:49,920
all sides of the aisle that I
come across and I knew that the

751
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,480
value for me of it is connecting
people.

752
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:57,960
But I, I never tied it to
outcomes.

753
00:43:58,720 --> 00:44:02,400
I never tied it to the value of
that.

754
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:05,480
I tied it like I want to connect
people because that's how I love

755
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:07,320
to feel.
That's how I love to feel.

756
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:12,320
I love having any time you get
into a deeper than surface level

757
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:17,000
conversation with somebody, you
leave that feeling extremely

758
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:20,280
connected and optimistic and
positive.

759
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:24,400
And selfishly, that's why I made
the podcast.

760
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:27,720
I wanted to feel that way.
I wanted and I, I thought others

761
00:44:27,720 --> 00:44:30,960
did too, but I never connected
it to outcome.

762
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:34,320
So it's, it's funny that that
came up in conversation today

763
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:39,560
because each time I've opened
your book, reading a new story

764
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:43,280
in it or reading the lens of how
it was created, or you do a

765
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:46,320
great job of kind of toeing the
line between those two things.

766
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:51,080
And I, I had that thought every
time.

767
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:56,880
And it's, it's one of those aha
moments that you, and like, I

768
00:44:56,880 --> 00:44:59,520
mean, we're less than two hours
into conversation.

769
00:45:00,240 --> 00:45:02,680
You have that recognition of
what I was trying to do.

770
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:05,680
And you would have even before
I, I had it and I didn't.

771
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:10,160
So I, I appreciate your message
that you've shared from more

772
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:14,480
than just the common reasons it
it helps me shape what my vision

773
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:16,400
is for what we're trying to do.
Well, thank you.

774
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,440
And you know, just getting to
know you, Brett, it's quite

775
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:21,560
evident that you are a natural
connector.

776
00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:25,440
That's that's at the soul of who
you are, right?

777
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:30,040
It is, yeah.
It's and again, that's sure it

778
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:33,400
comes out probably because we
gravitate towards our strengths

779
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:37,520
and things that we're good at.
And I'm I'm inherently curious

780
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:43,120
about the world and specifically
about people, but when?

781
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:47,120
When, when we're looking, you
know, when I'm in a community

782
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:50,240
where I'm parachuted in some
place to want to try and find

783
00:45:50,240 --> 00:45:53,520
out what talent is there and
what people care about and doing

784
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:57,200
deep listening, right.
And I'm doing a lot of

785
00:45:57,200 --> 00:45:59,600
one-on-one conversations to be
curious.

786
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:03,000
I'm usually looking for four
kind of attributes in a leader.

787
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:06,360
You know, I, I've been in the,
I've been in the private sector

788
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:07,760
as a vice president of the
company.

789
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:09,800
I've, I've worked in the public
sector.

790
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:12,760
We're 3 mayors in the city of
Madison, right?

791
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:16,120
I've done those things.
But when I look in community,

792
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:19,280
what I'm looking for as
community leaders, civic

793
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:22,040
leaders, citizen leaders, there
are 4 attributes.

794
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:24,960
And I just want to share those
'cause you mentioned one, which

795
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:30,080
is they're natural connectors.
I'm looking for people who, when

796
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:34,400
I say who else should I talk to,
they go, well, I'm not the one

797
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:37,160
you should really be talking to.
You should be talking to so and

798
00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:42,000
so and so and so and so and so.
They are naturally linked up

799
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:45,000
like Lily Tomlins with the old
switchboard.

800
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:47,520
I mean they just, you see them
all over the place.

801
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:51,720
They are natural connectors and
if you can find them, they are

802
00:46:51,720 --> 00:46:54,160
special people.
The second one, you also

803
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:57,120
mentioned your curiosity.
I look for people who have

804
00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:01,880
imagination, right?
Enough imagination to when you

805
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:06,880
you get to that bus stop and you
can't get on the damn bus you

806
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:09,480
say.
I think we could change this.

807
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:12,520
I think we can make something
different than what it is.

808
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:15,080
So you got to have that kind of
imagination.

809
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:18,520
The third attribute I always
look for is they got deep story,

810
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:22,040
'cause you don't hang in there
on the tough times unless you

811
00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:25,960
got a story that comes out of
your gut, right, or gut story.

812
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:29,000
And then the fourth thing is you
got to have a sense of humor.

813
00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:33,040
You just, you can't do this work
without having a sense of humor,

814
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:34,520
right?
Yeah.

815
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:37,560
It's just critical because it's
a lot of bumps and bangs.

816
00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:40,320
The world doesn't turn the way
you'd like it every time you,

817
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:47,000
you know, Wade the magic wand.
Yeah, just the the heaviness of

818
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:54,040
the of the work can, you know,
push you away of of not wanting

819
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:57,000
to feel all that way of the
things that you back to the

820
00:47:57,000 --> 00:47:58,120
powerless thing.
Right.

821
00:47:58,240 --> 00:48:02,240
Exactly, exactly.
You raised something up.

822
00:48:02,240 --> 00:48:03,800
I just got to share.
Can I do that?

823
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:07,680
So when I was, you know, that
you asked me about kind of my

824
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:10,000
genesis story and why this work
is useful.

825
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:15,120
And I think when we talk about
the importance of story, when I

826
00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:20,280
was and Mike and I in the book,
we open with the story of how

827
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:25,840
each and each of us came to why
this is important and that

828
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:28,920
genesis story.
I didn't know Mike's story until

829
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:32,280
10 years ago.
But we both grew up at a time

830
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:36,960
when farmers back in the late
60s, early 70s were getting the

831
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:40,040
heck beat out of them on price.
They just couldn't stay in

832
00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:43,640
business, you know, and my dad,
we were struggling.

833
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:46,960
We were never political family.
We were never, I never heard

834
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:51,200
Democrat or Republican or
anything in our household.

835
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:55,160
But I did hear about how the
hell are we going to pay, you

836
00:48:55,160 --> 00:49:01,160
know, the light bill?
And so one Saturday, my dad

837
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:07,680
says, what if we go to this
rally in Brussels?

838
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:11,080
And I and I said, would you like
to go along, Tommy?

839
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:14,800
I said, well, it's better than,
you know, shovel and manure,

840
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:17,760
which is Saturday morning ritual
on the fire.

841
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:20,200
And I said, yeah, I'd like to do
that.

842
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:23,800
I didn't have a clue.
So we put dad put some milk cans

843
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:25,720
or milk cans in the back of our
old truck.

844
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:29,680
We went up, picked up our
neighbor Ruben's cans and him,

845
00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:32,120
Ruben.
Dad and I went out to this field

846
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:36,720
in Brussels where there was a
rally being put on by farmers

847
00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:40,520
who were trying to get the
prices, get the get the company

848
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:43,440
to the table to talk.
And I got big eyes because,

849
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:46,440
number one, I don't get to go
places that much at that time in

850
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:48,960
my life.
And here's all these farmers on

851
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:53,280
a kind of like now there's a
March, early April, snow still

852
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:57,600
on the ground just melting.
And these farmers, as part of

853
00:49:57,600 --> 00:50:01,440
that event, started dumping
their cans of milk down into

854
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:05,800
this furrowed, plowed field.
And I watched this milk and dirt

855
00:50:06,720 --> 00:50:10,040
running down as a kid.
I'm like, what the heck, We

856
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:14,160
never spill a cup of milk.
And here we are dumping out.

857
00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:17,000
Something's going on here that
was pretty special.

858
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:19,920
And then there's a couple
speakers, and they said in two

859
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:24,000
weeks, if we keep this up, we
can get them to the table.

860
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:27,960
So everybody really think deeply
about hanging in there with us,

861
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:31,240
right?
And so everybody got back in

862
00:50:31,240 --> 00:50:35,160
their truck, and I went back out
to the road where our truck was

863
00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:38,040
standing.
And somebody drove by in a car

864
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:43,680
and rolled down the window and
said, here, you dumb farmers

865
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:47,680
read this.
And I went over and picked this

866
00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:53,280
newspaper out of the snow, and
the car had a Illinois license

867
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:55,880
plate on because we get a lot of
tourists up in Door County.

868
00:50:56,200 --> 00:50:58,440
But at that time, I really
didn't understand that.

869
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:02,200
But I picked up the paper and I
looked at it and it said

870
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:05,840
something like, Wisconsin
farmers starved Chicago

871
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:12,200
children.
And I'm like, what the hell, you

872
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:13,560
know?
And I looked at my dad, looked

873
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:15,120
at Ruben, and I held it out to
my dad.

874
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:17,560
And I said, Dad, are we starving
kids in Chicago?

875
00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:20,800
And Dad just didn't know how to
answer.

876
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:23,720
And he handed it to Reuben and
he said, Reuben, you explained

877
00:51:23,720 --> 00:51:24,640
this to Tom.
Yeah.

878
00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:27,200
Reuben says, yeah, thanks,
Frank.

879
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:31,400
And so the only thing Reuben
could do in that truck was just

880
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:34,920
put his arm around me and said,
these things are complicated,

881
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:38,880
Tom, and that's it.
But it was a genesis story for

882
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:42,320
me, you know, that was seated
probably that affected my

883
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:47,320
actually going to the seminary
and also affected my choosing

884
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:50,680
this this work as a as a part of
my life.

885
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:54,440
Yeah.
Thanks for allowing me to share

886
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:56,520
that, it's just an important
story for me.

887
00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:59,400
Unbelievable story.
It's one that gives you chills

888
00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:02,160
hearing.
And it's funny that you said

889
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:06,000
that because that's exactly what
I'm thinking that that is a core

890
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:10,520
moment of like when you made the
choice as a 12 year old to go to

891
00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:15,920
the seminary, That's your way of
like that's what you had access

892
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:19,200
to, to know how you could be
able to help, how you could

893
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:21,040
help.
You know that that's what had

894
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:24,240
been in your circle and that,
you know, you make that choice

895
00:52:24,240 --> 00:52:26,000
and say, well, that's how I can
help.

896
00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:28,240
You didn't have much choice in
going to Vietnam.

897
00:52:28,240 --> 00:52:30,600
You didn't have any choice in
going to Vietnam being drafted.

898
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:35,520
But then post that you knew you
didn't want to be at the Job

899
00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:37,240
Corps.
But then you hear that phone

900
00:52:37,240 --> 00:52:39,360
call and say, man, that sounds
like a way to help.

901
00:52:40,240 --> 00:52:45,160
And I, I would assume, and you
can, you can tell me if this is

902
00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:47,600
right or way off.
But I would assume that as you

903
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:53,000
navigated your career and grew
as a human and and developed

904
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:59,120
different experiences, I think
probably does it come back to

905
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:03,080
that's one of the core things
that you've you're drawn to,

906
00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:06,720
you're sucked into and and feel
passionate about is just

907
00:53:06,720 --> 00:53:09,160
helping.
Yeah, you know, helping is a

908
00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:13,640
useful word, but I think an iron
rule we use in community

909
00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:16,680
building is we don't do things
for people they can't learn to

910
00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:21,040
do for themselves.
And so the work is less about

911
00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:24,920
kind of being a a helper and and
charity.

912
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:29,760
It's not about charity.
It's about you can do this, I

913
00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:33,880
can help you learn how to make a
difference in the world and

914
00:53:33,880 --> 00:53:37,760
you've got the gifts to do it if
you want to step up and be part

915
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:40,520
of it, right?
Am I making sense on that?

916
00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:43,960
So I leave people behind.
I hope better than I found them,

917
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:47,120
like a good coach.
I always love coaching and I

918
00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:50,360
love you know, So I'm more, I'd
like to think of myself as more

919
00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:55,440
of a walk alongside people.
I help them, I coach them, help

920
00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:58,720
them prepare, help them
afterwards learn what happened,

921
00:53:58,720 --> 00:54:02,600
what worked, what didn't right
in events, just like a good

922
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:05,760
coach did for me.
And I'm grateful for I'm doing

923
00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:08,720
that in civic life.
That's what I want to do to help

924
00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:12,800
rebuild a need for people to get
engaged in civic life.

925
00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:20,480
Eloquently put, true and kind of
resemblant of what your partner,

926
00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:23,280
your co-author, had said about
if we call this one thing,

927
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:27,040
people won't do it.
And it's funny because one of

928
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:31,080
my, I'm sure my students get
tired of hearing me say it, but

929
00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:34,480
I always tell them I'm here to
support your success.

930
00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:35,960
Yeah, let me know.
I can do that.

931
00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:39,720
Now that's a lot different than
saying let me know if you need

932
00:54:39,720 --> 00:54:43,040
help.
And it's funny that it came out

933
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:49,720
that way because I I think
that's a that's part that's part

934
00:54:49,720 --> 00:54:55,080
of being an effective connector
that you said earlier is sharing

935
00:54:55,080 --> 00:55:02,280
a message in a way that lands
and that doesn't make someone

936
00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:05,880
feel a host of different ways
that could stop you from doing

937
00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:11,280
something ashamed, overwhelmed,
whatever you could, you could

938
00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:16,040
list words for days that if you
feel them, it it is a a hill on

939
00:55:16,040 --> 00:55:20,640
the way to success.
But yeah, that's eloquently put,

940
00:55:20,640 --> 00:55:21,520
my friend.
Yeah.

941
00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:25,800
Yeah, And you know, I don't make
an offer to people to do

942
00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:28,560
something unless it's in their
interest, right?

943
00:55:28,560 --> 00:55:32,080
It's not out of guilt and
obligation because that's not

944
00:55:32,080 --> 00:55:34,440
sustainable.
They're not going to be there

945
00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:36,880
for the kind of bumping and
banging you're going to have to

946
00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:41,160
do to make change.
But if people got a deep story

947
00:55:41,160 --> 00:55:46,000
about something they care deeply
about, then if you want to work

948
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:49,240
together, see if we can't do
something about this, right?

949
00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:52,240
And most people say, yeah, I, I
want to become better.

950
00:55:52,240 --> 00:55:56,600
I want to learn how to do this.
And, and one other thing I want

951
00:55:56,600 --> 00:55:59,800
to add to this is, you know, we
just went through this major

952
00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:07,120
election in the Wisconsin, $100
million spent on it, and people

953
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:10,080
got really rallied around
electoral politics.

954
00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:13,800
And I just want people to
appreciate there's more than

955
00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:18,960
electoral politics in the world.
That real civic life, you know,

956
00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:22,880
going back 2000 years to the
Greeks is much more about what

957
00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:26,840
you do as a citizen locally to
make a difference in the world.

958
00:56:28,040 --> 00:56:31,760
And we just, we don't, we don't
teach people the importance of

959
00:56:31,760 --> 00:56:34,560
that.
And so, you know, electoral

960
00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:37,120
politics is a necessary thing to
do.

961
00:56:37,640 --> 00:56:40,520
It's important, but it's not
sufficient.

962
00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:44,920
Sufficient is having the skills
to act in the things that you

963
00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:48,600
care deeply about right now,
right here in your place.

964
00:56:49,040 --> 00:56:51,920
And isn't that reflective of
your original point, the point

965
00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:59,680
we were just on, it's reflective
of if you're pushed to do

966
00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:05,360
something, it's not sustainable.
That's what governmental policy

967
00:57:05,360 --> 00:57:08,600
and pressure is it.
It is constraining.

968
00:57:08,600 --> 00:57:10,600
It puts things in boxes, which
we need.

969
00:57:11,240 --> 00:57:17,280
At the same time, that isn't
sustainable change at a human

970
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:22,440
level, at A at a human community
level.

971
00:57:22,680 --> 00:57:24,240
At that scale.
Yeah.

972
00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:28,520
So like when you think of, you
know, the most constraining

973
00:57:28,520 --> 00:57:33,400
authoritative regimes in the
world, looking at it from the

974
00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:35,480
outside in, we're like, how do
those people live?

975
00:57:35,600 --> 00:57:37,600
How are they, how do they
continue on?

976
00:57:38,680 --> 00:57:41,760
They're doing something at a
community level that makes life

977
00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:44,960
at the bare minimum worth
living.

978
00:57:45,680 --> 00:57:53,520
But past that, and I think the
the polarization I think jams

979
00:57:53,520 --> 00:57:55,880
people in this place of, well,
we have to wait to see what

980
00:57:55,880 --> 00:58:02,560
we're told to do until we do it.
But it's it's not going to, it's

981
00:58:02,560 --> 00:58:03,720
not going to bring the
connection.

982
00:58:03,720 --> 00:58:04,840
It's not going to bring the
success.

983
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:07,880
It's not going to bring it.
It is at a truly, I mean,

984
00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:10,880
grassroots is an overused term,
but it's at an individual level.

985
00:58:10,880 --> 00:58:16,080
And then what you do for your
community can create some sweat.

986
00:58:16,520 --> 00:58:21,600
You identifiably smaller changes
that can then blossom into more

987
00:58:21,600 --> 00:58:24,600
connection.
Yep, absolutely, absolutely.

988
00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:28,560
As your confidence grows and
your ability to engage people

989
00:58:28,560 --> 00:58:31,920
grow, you can take on bigger
dreams, right?

990
00:58:31,960 --> 00:58:35,120
Or bigger discontents?
Absolutely.

991
00:58:35,400 --> 00:58:42,920
And the dreams become realistic.
Yeah, I I had the good fortune.

992
00:58:42,920 --> 00:58:44,280
I don't know if it's good
fortune.

993
00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:47,680
Yeah, I'd say it was good
fortune of working in other

994
00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:51,760
countries, being invited to
other places, like in Argentina

995
00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:55,680
after the disappearance of
families, where 20,000 people

996
00:58:55,680 --> 00:59:00,240
were disappeared.
And I was brought down there by

997
00:59:00,240 --> 00:59:03,720
family members about five years
after all of that.

998
00:59:03,720 --> 00:59:07,760
But it was still raw to try and
get people back engaged in civic

999
00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:11,720
life when they had learned to
just hide, hide, put your helmet

1000
00:59:11,720 --> 00:59:16,080
on, cinch it up, stay low, don't
go in public, drive fear into

1001
00:59:16,080 --> 00:59:19,000
society.
And I came down there at the

1002
00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:21,000
will of the families.
And the first thing they showed

1003
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:24,160
me when I got there was they
took me to a football stadium

1004
00:59:24,160 --> 00:59:28,200
where a lot of their family
members had been buried under

1005
00:59:28,200 --> 00:59:32,640
the football soccer stadium.
And, you know, I was like, I

1006
00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:35,960
couldn't believe it.
And then, you know, a lot of

1007
00:59:35,960 --> 00:59:39,000
more hauled out over the
Atlantic Ocean and dropped,

1008
00:59:39,640 --> 00:59:41,280
right.
And these were you talk about

1009
00:59:41,280 --> 00:59:46,160
people with story who had the
courage to want to stand up and

1010
00:59:46,160 --> 00:59:52,280
reinvent democracy in that city
and, and in that society.

1011
00:59:52,840 --> 00:59:56,440
And it was powerful work.
And we made a big difference,

1012
00:59:56,960 --> 01:00:00,240
you know, And I thought I was
just a, you know, a small stone

1013
01:00:00,240 --> 01:00:03,160
in a big pond.
But I felt really proud that I

1014
01:00:03,160 --> 01:00:07,680
had the chance to help them
learn some things that continue

1015
01:00:07,680 --> 01:00:10,120
to this day.
And I could share other stories

1016
01:00:10,120 --> 01:00:14,040
of places I've been doing that.
And that's nonpartisan work.

1017
01:00:14,560 --> 01:00:18,440
It's just caring about people
and their families and

1018
01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:22,160
communities.
Yeah, how, how much of that have

1019
01:00:22,160 --> 01:00:25,040
you done like outside of the
country?

1020
01:00:25,120 --> 01:00:30,560
Type stuff like some, some, some
Eastern Europe stuff, you know,

1021
01:00:30,560 --> 01:00:34,920
in places I remember this is
even more interesting, at least

1022
01:00:34,920 --> 01:00:36,720
to me.
I was in Portugal.

1023
01:00:36,920 --> 01:00:39,400
I was talking about this, and I
had an interpreter.

1024
01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:44,840
And I could tell from the view
of the people there that what I

1025
01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:47,680
was sharing, when I was talking
about building strong

1026
01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:50,560
communities from the bottom up
where you get local people

1027
01:00:50,560 --> 01:00:54,480
engaged, I was getting kind of
this kind of gloss over.

1028
01:00:54,480 --> 01:00:58,280
And I finally said, you know, to
the interpreter, what?

1029
01:00:58,280 --> 01:01:01,720
What do you think's going on?
And they said, yeah, there's a

1030
01:01:01,720 --> 01:01:04,560
name for people like you.
They called you subversives.

1031
01:01:05,560 --> 01:01:08,960
And I thought, Oh my God, isn't
that interesting that people are

1032
01:01:08,960 --> 01:01:12,880
fearful and that we get boxed up
when in fact, we're, you know,

1033
01:01:13,280 --> 01:01:16,480
we are not subversive.
We are just ordinary people

1034
01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:19,520
listening to what people's
dreams and discontents are that

1035
01:01:19,520 --> 01:01:24,880
we want to act on, Right.
And yet that that's what can go

1036
01:01:24,880 --> 01:01:28,640
on as fear gets driven into a
culture, That's what goes on.

1037
01:01:28,640 --> 01:01:31,480
We learn.
We are very smart at learning

1038
01:01:31,480 --> 01:01:36,960
how to read the signals and to
avoid being drawn into things

1039
01:01:36,960 --> 01:01:40,800
that are unsafe, right For us
and our families, You, me,

1040
01:01:40,800 --> 01:01:45,480
anybody else.
And so, yeah, that's the real

1041
01:01:45,480 --> 01:01:47,080
world.
That's the real world.

1042
01:01:47,480 --> 01:01:50,920
That is fascinating.
So in that moment, they have a

1043
01:01:50,920 --> 01:01:53,400
million things to say, but
they're they won't say.

1044
01:01:53,400 --> 01:01:58,000
What they won't say it.
Because they've been ingrained

1045
01:01:58,440 --> 01:02:02,400
that that is somebody fishing
for something that Yep.

1046
01:02:03,120 --> 01:02:05,640
Is dangerous and I experienced
that even working for the city

1047
01:02:05,640 --> 01:02:07,440
of Madison.
My job was to improve.

1048
01:02:07,800 --> 01:02:10,760
So I'm a 2 trick pony.
One is community organizing,

1049
01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:13,920
community building right?
And the other half, I became

1050
01:02:13,920 --> 01:02:17,760
institutionalized both as vice
president of the company and

1051
01:02:17,760 --> 01:02:21,240
also I worked for three mayors
not in a political position.

1052
01:02:21,240 --> 01:02:23,280
My job was to improve everything
we did.

1053
01:02:23,600 --> 01:02:27,000
So I rode with refuse pickers to
try and reduce back injuries.

1054
01:02:27,240 --> 01:02:30,160
What would police officers to
get them out of their cars,

1055
01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:32,440
Learning how to walk in the
neighborhood and meet the

1056
01:02:32,440 --> 01:02:36,280
neighbors rather than sitting in
a car getting fire trucks to

1057
01:02:36,280 --> 01:02:39,880
fires faster.
That was my my kind of work,

1058
01:02:39,880 --> 01:02:42,680
right?
And but I learned from that,

1059
01:02:42,920 --> 01:02:45,640
that I'd go down to motor
equipment to spend the day

1060
01:02:45,640 --> 01:02:48,480
working with the guys.
And I'd say, what kind of day is

1061
01:02:48,480 --> 01:02:50,360
it?
It's the best day of my life.

1062
01:02:50,360 --> 01:02:53,200
I love it here.
I only got 25 years left.

1063
01:02:55,440 --> 01:02:58,760
That's the culture, right?
And to get a relationship with

1064
01:02:58,760 --> 01:03:02,600
those guys so that they would
say, I'd say, So what can we do

1065
01:03:02,600 --> 01:03:04,360
to make it better for you to
work here?

1066
01:03:04,640 --> 01:03:07,920
Change.
Well, Tom, you can get the damn

1067
01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:11,200
windows cleared here so we can
actually see in the vehicle, so

1068
01:03:11,200 --> 01:03:14,000
we can, you know, see what parts
are needed.

1069
01:03:14,640 --> 01:03:17,360
I said when was the windows?
Was the last time the windows?

1070
01:03:17,360 --> 01:03:22,840
Is this plane been clean?
Probably 10 years, 24 hours had

1071
01:03:22,840 --> 01:03:26,000
those windows cleaned.
Then when I sat down to him and

1072
01:03:26,000 --> 01:03:30,040
said what else do you want done?
And they'd say we can't get

1073
01:03:30,040 --> 01:03:33,080
parts.
Takes 27 days to get a part.

1074
01:03:33,080 --> 01:03:35,320
But they're blaming us 'cause
we're the mechanics.

1075
01:03:36,360 --> 01:03:39,920
And so we flow charted the
process for buying parts. 27

1076
01:03:39,920 --> 01:03:44,920
steps to buy a part, right?
And the mechanic only has two.

1077
01:03:44,920 --> 01:03:48,080
He could make the order in the
front and he could put it in at

1078
01:03:48,080 --> 01:03:51,880
the end.
But 27 steps right, Including a

1079
01:03:51,880 --> 01:03:55,960
rule that if it was over
$300.00, it had to go up to the

1080
01:03:55,960 --> 01:03:58,320
comptroller's office to sign off
on it.

1081
01:03:58,320 --> 01:04:02,360
To make it 28.
To me, you know, I mean, so I'm,

1082
01:04:02,440 --> 01:04:03,960
I'm, I'm getting off a little
bit.

1083
01:04:03,960 --> 01:04:06,520
The change, what I've learned
about change, whether you're

1084
01:04:06,520 --> 01:04:10,720
inside an organization or in
community, the importance of

1085
01:04:10,720 --> 01:04:14,880
feeling that you can affect
change and learning that should

1086
01:04:14,880 --> 01:04:18,520
be part of what people learn in
this society if we're serious

1087
01:04:18,520 --> 01:04:23,000
about democracy and letting
everybody have a chance to have

1088
01:04:23,000 --> 01:04:24,960
a voice.
Absolutely.

1089
01:04:24,960 --> 01:04:27,480
Yeah.
And isn't that concept isn't

1090
01:04:27,480 --> 01:04:30,200
that helpful, that quick
feedback loop at the beginning

1091
01:04:30,200 --> 01:04:32,840
to get people a little bit of
gusto moving in the right

1092
01:04:32,840 --> 01:04:34,960
direction, that little momentum,
you know, you start with a

1093
01:04:34,960 --> 01:04:37,560
little snowball.
And it's like, I guarantee those

1094
01:04:37,560 --> 01:04:40,080
mechanics in there, they see
that happen in 48 hours.

1095
01:04:40,080 --> 01:04:42,240
They're like, oh, Dang, I can
see my parts.

1096
01:04:42,560 --> 01:04:45,560
Next time Tom comes around
having a conversation, those

1097
01:04:45,560 --> 01:04:47,680
ears are going to be a little
bit more perked up for.

1098
01:04:47,680 --> 01:04:50,320
You.
Yep, exactly, exactly.

1099
01:04:50,920 --> 01:04:56,800
And and when one of the lead
people there passed away, all

1100
01:04:56,800 --> 01:04:59,200
the mechanics were Harley
riders, right?

1101
01:04:59,640 --> 01:05:03,840
They went up to his hometown
Douglas Grave, and he was the

1102
01:05:03,840 --> 01:05:07,400
guy who actually led the stuff
that the change strategies.

1103
01:05:07,880 --> 01:05:12,760
So for them, it was more than it
was an opportunity to actually

1104
01:05:12,760 --> 01:05:15,520
say the things they couldn't
say, right.

1105
01:05:15,520 --> 01:05:19,320
I was giving them permission to
say, you know, this ain't right.

1106
01:05:20,280 --> 01:05:24,000
We, we can, we can suck it up.
We can get by because we got

1107
01:05:24,000 --> 01:05:26,960
good pay and good benefits.
But this ain't right.

1108
01:05:26,960 --> 01:05:31,720
We could be better mechanics if
we did this and this and this

1109
01:05:32,280 --> 01:05:35,120
and we open that up.
And once we open that up, now

1110
01:05:35,120 --> 01:05:38,200
the fear for politicians is
they're going to be asking for

1111
01:05:38,200 --> 01:05:41,560
things that, you know, but it's
for the betterment.

1112
01:05:41,560 --> 01:05:45,600
We saved a lot of money by
improving the part systems down

1113
01:05:45,600 --> 01:05:47,600
to three steps, 24 hour turn
around.

1114
01:05:47,600 --> 01:05:51,320
You got it down to three.
Three steps from 27 steps turn

1115
01:05:51,320 --> 01:05:56,760
around time went from 27 days
first to 48 hours and then it

1116
01:05:56,760 --> 01:06:00,880
went down to 24 hours.
And they're the ones who chose

1117
01:06:00,880 --> 01:06:03,280
to change it.
They were thinking after I left

1118
01:06:03,280 --> 01:06:07,360
working with them to move it
from 48 to 24, they they

1119
01:06:07,360 --> 01:06:11,680
improved another thing that made
the difference so that that kind

1120
01:06:11,680 --> 01:06:16,480
of stuff it really get well.
It makes me want to do a podcast

1121
01:06:16,480 --> 01:06:16,880
with you.
You're.

1122
01:06:17,400 --> 01:06:20,640
Right, Yeah, yeah.
And I'm glad we got there

1123
01:06:20,640 --> 01:06:24,360
because I, you know, I don't
enter these knowing everywhere I

1124
01:06:24,360 --> 01:06:25,800
want to go.
I enter these to have a

1125
01:06:25,800 --> 01:06:28,400
conversation.
But from talking on the phone, I

1126
01:06:28,400 --> 01:06:30,480
remember you talking.
That job sounds really

1127
01:06:30,480 --> 01:06:34,800
interesting to me.
And in that scenario

1128
01:06:34,800 --> 01:06:37,480
specifically, I think you can
pull out this bigger concept

1129
01:06:37,480 --> 01:06:39,640
that has to be a good feeling
that you've had throughout your

1130
01:06:39,640 --> 01:06:44,400
career of like anytime change
comes around, there's a certain

1131
01:06:44,400 --> 01:06:46,800
percentage of people that are
these immediate detractors,

1132
01:06:46,800 --> 01:06:48,160
right?
Like this is a bad idea.

1133
01:06:48,160 --> 01:06:49,560
We don't want change.
We don't want it.

1134
01:06:50,160 --> 01:06:55,120
And then when you can leave a
scenario that effectively and

1135
01:06:55,120 --> 01:06:59,240
successfully and like clearly
from 28 to three, there was a

1136
01:06:59,240 --> 01:07:01,040
lot of unnecessary things
happening there.

1137
01:07:01,320 --> 01:07:04,800
And when you can leave a
scenario and it's not to say

1138
01:07:04,800 --> 01:07:08,200
like it's not to do the rub in
your face, like I told you that

1139
01:07:08,440 --> 01:07:09,960
you shouldn't be, you shouldn't
be glad I was here.

1140
01:07:10,120 --> 01:07:13,080
It's no, it's not that.
It's like there has to be so

1141
01:07:13,080 --> 01:07:18,080
much satisfaction in that.
Like getting over that

1142
01:07:18,080 --> 01:07:20,600
perception of like, OK, let's
push past this.

1143
01:07:20,600 --> 01:07:23,520
I'm here to support you, let's
do what's best for you.

1144
01:07:24,360 --> 01:07:28,120
And then removing that, what
whatever you want to call it,

1145
01:07:28,120 --> 01:07:29,880
there's a bunch of proverbial
things you could say.

1146
01:07:29,880 --> 01:07:32,320
Removing the wall in front of
somebody so they can keep

1147
01:07:32,320 --> 01:07:37,680
walking forward.
That job had to have so much of

1148
01:07:37,680 --> 01:07:38,680
that.
Well, it did.

1149
01:07:38,680 --> 01:07:40,560
It did.
And I fund.

1150
01:07:40,720 --> 01:07:44,280
One of my rules of thumb is that
95% of people go to work every

1151
01:07:44,280 --> 01:07:49,120
day, want to do great work.
They may work in shitty systems

1152
01:07:49,280 --> 01:07:51,920
that make it really hard to do
great work.

1153
01:07:52,240 --> 01:07:56,080
So let's work on the system
first rather than blaming Harry

1154
01:07:56,360 --> 01:07:59,800
that it's his problem or Jane
because she's, you know, not as

1155
01:07:59,800 --> 01:08:02,480
fast as I am at doing things
right.

1156
01:08:03,000 --> 01:08:07,440
Work on the systems that make it
bad for hard for people to do

1157
01:08:07,440 --> 01:08:09,560
what they do.
And I bet there's a lot of

1158
01:08:09,560 --> 01:08:11,960
people out there listening who
listen to your podcasts could

1159
01:08:11,960 --> 01:08:15,200
say thumbs up on that because I
got a whole lot of stuff in my

1160
01:08:15,200 --> 01:08:19,800
job on this molding machine or,
you know, packing sausages that

1161
01:08:19,800 --> 01:08:22,760
I know could be done better.
But it's not a place where I can

1162
01:08:22,760 --> 01:08:26,359
say what I think could be done,
because it's not a culture that

1163
01:08:26,359 --> 01:08:29,120
would support that.
What can that person do, Tom?

1164
01:08:29,960 --> 01:08:33,200
That's a great question.
That's a really good question.

1165
01:08:33,439 --> 01:08:37,560
Unless, you know, it's really
hard when you're in those

1166
01:08:37,560 --> 01:08:39,840
systems.
I'll tell you, you, you, you

1167
01:08:39,840 --> 01:08:41,880
know, it's kind of the old Kenny
Rogers.

1168
01:08:41,880 --> 01:08:44,399
You know, when to hold them,
when to fold them, when to walk

1169
01:08:44,399 --> 01:08:45,920
away.
You got to make those calls in

1170
01:08:45,920 --> 01:08:48,120
your life.
You know, you may have reasons.

1171
01:08:48,120 --> 01:08:51,359
You're going to just suck it up
and you're going to keep leaning

1172
01:08:51,359 --> 01:08:54,399
in on that job because that's
the job in town.

1173
01:08:54,399 --> 01:08:57,279
And that's what you can do, and
you do it well to the best of

1174
01:08:57,279 --> 01:08:59,680
your ability.
But there are others who say,

1175
01:08:59,800 --> 01:09:02,680
no, this is enough of this.
I want to go someplace where

1176
01:09:02,680 --> 01:09:05,560
they treat you right.
You get to have some voice,

1177
01:09:06,160 --> 01:09:08,120
right?
And I can make a difference.

1178
01:09:08,240 --> 01:09:11,399
So all of us have to make those
calls in our lives, and I've

1179
01:09:11,399 --> 01:09:13,439
made them.
You've made them right.

1180
01:09:13,439 --> 01:09:15,240
We all do those things.
Yeah.

1181
01:09:15,399 --> 01:09:19,120
Yeah, I think that's such an
important identification because

1182
01:09:20,520 --> 01:09:24,640
the like the easy answer would
have been to say, well, read

1183
01:09:24,640 --> 01:09:30,279
this book and then do this.
But the the important delineator

1184
01:09:30,279 --> 01:09:34,279
there I think it is.
And the the Kenny Rogers thing

1185
01:09:34,279 --> 01:09:38,120
is a is a really good tangible,
easy to understand example of

1186
01:09:38,120 --> 01:09:41,319
that of like there's certain
things that are going to be in

1187
01:09:41,319 --> 01:09:43,720
in certain scenarios outside of
your control.

1188
01:09:44,200 --> 01:09:47,200
So not only having all these
skills, knowing when to

1189
01:09:47,200 --> 01:09:50,359
implement them and when it's
good and when you can do it.

1190
01:09:50,359 --> 01:09:57,200
Now, I would, I would venture to
say that with enough curiosity,

1191
01:09:57,200 --> 01:10:02,200
time and attention, even in
those scenarios I've seen, you

1192
01:10:02,200 --> 01:10:09,320
know, organizations not
operating effectively,

1193
01:10:09,360 --> 01:10:13,080
successfully, I've seen them
change from the, from the ground

1194
01:10:13,080 --> 01:10:18,560
up with a similar, you know,
mindset, but or you know, a

1195
01:10:18,560 --> 01:10:22,040
similar plan of action.
And it might not be, you know,

1196
01:10:22,720 --> 01:10:25,000
don't stand up from your machine
and start hollering.

1197
01:10:25,040 --> 01:10:28,240
This is everything that's wrong.
But take some of these concepts

1198
01:10:28,240 --> 01:10:32,200
in, maybe maybe get a few people
together, you know, that say,

1199
01:10:33,040 --> 01:10:35,760
hey, this could be a little bit
better and, and start leaving

1200
01:10:35,760 --> 01:10:39,680
those little notes on the walls.
And I think in a lot of

1201
01:10:39,680 --> 01:10:43,080
scenarios you could make it
bigger, better if you want to.

1202
01:10:43,440 --> 01:10:46,200
That's a whole other thing.
Like you said, some people are

1203
01:10:46,200 --> 01:10:49,600
locked in where like if the if
that's the spot to work in your

1204
01:10:49,600 --> 01:10:52,400
small rural community town,
let's try to make a change in

1205
01:10:52,400 --> 01:10:55,240
there.
If you're in Green Bay and every

1206
01:10:55,240 --> 01:10:58,280
manufacturer here is looking for
a person to come work and you're

1207
01:10:58,280 --> 01:11:00,320
working at 1:00 and you're
thinking, man, this could be a

1208
01:11:00,320 --> 01:11:03,480
little bit better.
Maybe just jump ship you know

1209
01:11:03,480 --> 01:11:05,880
and and see.
Yeah.

1210
01:11:05,960 --> 01:11:10,080
And I this might be a good time
to just share the framework that

1211
01:11:10,160 --> 01:11:12,560
the book is written around, if I
could.

1212
01:11:12,760 --> 01:11:16,240
Yes, please, because I think
that's key after all these years

1213
01:11:16,240 --> 01:11:20,360
of being around change and the
book is around the basic

1214
01:11:20,360 --> 01:11:27,320
framework is around community
change is based on what I think

1215
01:11:27,320 --> 01:11:31,440
are four things that have to you
have to think about when you're

1216
01:11:31,440 --> 01:11:34,920
going to try and create change,
whether it's inside of a place

1217
01:11:34,920 --> 01:11:38,440
or from a community, you know,
as a citizen.

1218
01:11:38,840 --> 01:11:41,200
And the first thing is you got
to assess the desire.

1219
01:11:41,520 --> 01:11:44,520
You may have a great idea, you
may have something you really

1220
01:11:44,520 --> 01:11:49,080
got to dream to make happen, but
you got to know if there's other

1221
01:11:49,080 --> 01:11:52,320
people who have that dream or
not, because you could be one

1222
01:11:52,320 --> 01:11:54,720
guy in a bar stool, you know,
with a dream.

1223
01:11:54,720 --> 01:11:57,480
There's a lot of them down there
at the tap room, right?

1224
01:11:57,880 --> 01:12:01,240
But unless you can get other
people, so you got to go out and

1225
01:12:01,240 --> 01:12:04,480
assess whether or not there's
enough will to make that happen.

1226
01:12:05,480 --> 01:12:09,680
So that's number one desire.
And then secondly, that's got to

1227
01:12:09,680 --> 01:12:12,680
be combined with.
So I would say to you, So what

1228
01:12:12,680 --> 01:12:15,600
would you like to see happen?
And then you'd have to be able

1229
01:12:15,600 --> 01:12:18,560
to share with me some kind of a
vision of what the hell it would

1230
01:12:18,560 --> 01:12:20,600
look like if we actually made
the change.

1231
01:12:20,800 --> 01:12:24,040
Because if you can't figure that
out, even if it's rough, a rough

1232
01:12:24,040 --> 01:12:26,280
sketch, you got to have some
idea.

1233
01:12:26,600 --> 01:12:28,480
You know, it's like that bus
store I said.

1234
01:12:28,480 --> 01:12:31,480
And what would it look like if
you could get on this bus,

1235
01:12:31,560 --> 01:12:32,600
Lillian?
Right.

1236
01:12:33,000 --> 01:12:35,040
Well, the step might be a little
lower.

1237
01:12:35,040 --> 01:12:38,000
The there'd be something I could
hold on to when I'm going to get

1238
01:12:38,000 --> 01:12:39,280
on.
Right.

1239
01:12:39,400 --> 01:12:42,240
OK, let's figure out how we're
going to make that happen.

1240
01:12:42,760 --> 01:12:46,680
So does understand the will or
the desire to make it happen

1241
01:12:47,160 --> 01:12:50,880
times The ability to create a
vision and not just alone, but a

1242
01:12:50,880 --> 01:12:53,280
shared vision.
More people involved in the

1243
01:12:53,280 --> 01:12:55,760
vision creation.
So you got some power coming.

1244
01:12:56,160 --> 01:12:59,120
Third element is power.
How much power do you got to do

1245
01:12:59,120 --> 01:13:01,280
something about this?
You know, down in

1246
01:13:01,280 --> 01:13:04,560
Blanchardville, where I farm
South of Madison, every

1247
01:13:04,560 --> 01:13:07,440
Wednesday afternoon, the euchre
boys are down at the tap room

1248
01:13:07,440 --> 01:13:09,120
and they're solving all the
world's problems.

1249
01:13:09,120 --> 01:13:12,360
So I don't worry about doge.
I don't worry about any, you

1250
01:13:12,360 --> 01:13:15,440
know, tariffs.
Those guys got it nailed every

1251
01:13:15,440 --> 01:13:19,360
Wednesday afternoon, but they
don't get off of the bar stool

1252
01:13:19,640 --> 01:13:22,680
or are at the card table, right?
That's that's it.

1253
01:13:22,920 --> 01:13:26,280
So where do you going to get the
power you're going to need to

1254
01:13:26,280 --> 01:13:29,680
actually make the change?
And I say there are two things

1255
01:13:29,680 --> 01:13:32,840
that we talked about in the book
that really make change from the

1256
01:13:32,840 --> 01:13:36,320
bottom up. 1 is the strength of
your relationships, those

1257
01:13:36,320 --> 01:13:41,560
networks, how deep and broad are
the relationships that you can

1258
01:13:41,560 --> 01:13:43,560
bring together to effect the
change?

1259
01:13:43,880 --> 01:13:46,360
And are you willing to actually
get out of the upper room and do

1260
01:13:46,360 --> 01:13:48,880
something?
A lot of people are good up till

1261
01:13:48,880 --> 01:13:50,800
then.
They know there's people who

1262
01:13:50,800 --> 01:13:53,080
care about this thing, whatever
it might be.

1263
01:13:53,600 --> 01:13:55,320
They got a vision of what could
be.

1264
01:13:55,320 --> 01:13:58,880
They got a, you know, picture in
their brain or a group of people

1265
01:13:58,880 --> 01:14:00,920
do.
And they think they may have a

1266
01:14:00,920 --> 01:14:05,360
little power because they got
networks and relationships, but

1267
01:14:05,360 --> 01:14:07,480
they're never going to get out
of the upper room and act.

1268
01:14:08,240 --> 01:14:10,880
And it takes those four things
together.

1269
01:14:11,560 --> 01:14:14,560
And those got to be stronger
than the resistance because I

1270
01:14:14,560 --> 01:14:18,400
don't care how good you think,
whatever it is you want to do,

1271
01:14:18,760 --> 01:14:23,080
you're going to be surprised by
some people say not here, we're

1272
01:14:23,080 --> 01:14:25,400
not going to do that.
You're not you thinking about

1273
01:14:25,400 --> 01:14:28,160
doing that here.
We're not going to buy that.

1274
01:14:28,360 --> 01:14:31,360
We don't work that way here.
So you got to get ready for the

1275
01:14:31,360 --> 01:14:34,200
resistance.
And I'd rather anticipate it and

1276
01:14:34,200 --> 01:14:37,000
help people anticipate it then
react to it.

1277
01:14:37,520 --> 01:14:39,920
So that's the framework that the
book is built on.

1278
01:14:40,160 --> 01:14:45,000
And each story is a story, as
you know, related to each one of

1279
01:14:45,000 --> 01:14:49,760
those elements.
And if you're in in, in Denmark

1280
01:14:49,760 --> 01:14:53,720
or Kewanee or Pulaski or
wherever you're from, this

1281
01:14:53,720 --> 01:14:56,520
little framework can really help
you think about something you

1282
01:14:56,520 --> 01:15:00,800
want to do and say, OK, do we
have a deep enough will here to

1283
01:15:00,800 --> 01:15:05,400
actually do this right?
And do we have a vision of what

1284
01:15:05,400 --> 01:15:07,560
we want it to look like if we do
it?

1285
01:15:08,320 --> 01:15:10,760
And where's our power going to
come from to make it happen?

1286
01:15:10,760 --> 01:15:12,760
Relationships and willingness to
act.

1287
01:15:13,280 --> 01:15:15,200
And where was the resistance
going to come from?

1288
01:15:15,360 --> 01:15:16,960
That's it.
It's that simple.

1289
01:15:17,960 --> 01:15:21,640
It's never that easy, right?
But it's that simple to actually

1290
01:15:21,640 --> 01:15:24,880
create that kind of.
And I want that for ordinary

1291
01:15:24,880 --> 01:15:28,360
people to make a difference.
That helped me a lot.

1292
01:15:28,360 --> 01:15:32,160
The I algebraically isn't how my
mind works.

1293
01:15:32,480 --> 01:15:35,480
So like seeing the I kept trying
to like go back and forth

1294
01:15:35,480 --> 01:15:38,400
between the concepts and then
the equations in the book.

1295
01:15:38,400 --> 01:15:39,760
You sound like my wife.
Yeah.

1296
01:15:39,760 --> 01:15:42,200
I just want the stories.
I just want the stories.

1297
01:15:42,200 --> 01:15:44,280
Inherently, that's where I am,
that's where I am, that's where

1298
01:15:44,280 --> 01:15:46,880
my mind lives.
But what a what an excellent

1299
01:15:46,880 --> 01:15:49,240
cherry on top of the sundae
we've put together today.

1300
01:15:49,240 --> 01:15:55,400
Tom I, I had the, the way I
became aware of those push backs

1301
01:15:55,400 --> 01:15:58,040
was living in a small Upper
Peninsula community for seven

1302
01:15:58,040 --> 01:16:02,600
years and moving in from, you
know, having lived some other

1303
01:16:02,640 --> 01:16:07,080
experiences in my life and
having ideas that were like,

1304
01:16:07,080 --> 01:16:09,200
this would be awesome.
This would be a really cool idea

1305
01:16:09,200 --> 01:16:12,120
for the community.
And then, you know, whether it

1306
01:16:12,120 --> 01:16:14,280
was I was on a radio show
talking with somebody about

1307
01:16:14,280 --> 01:16:17,480
wanted a, you know, forward
thinking person who wanted to do

1308
01:16:17,480 --> 01:16:21,720
this or whatever, and then just
to see the other side come up

1309
01:16:21,720 --> 01:16:23,120
and be like, we don't want that
here.

1310
01:16:23,520 --> 01:16:26,240
One of my one of my great
friends is a a fly fishing guide

1311
01:16:26,240 --> 01:16:28,240
in that town.
Still, he's built an

1312
01:16:28,920 --> 01:16:30,480
unbelievable business doing it
there.

1313
01:16:31,280 --> 01:16:36,160
But at the beginning, a a town
that, like most in the UP do are

1314
01:16:36,160 --> 01:16:40,880
struggling economically, the
shrinking, dwindling tax bases

1315
01:16:41,560 --> 01:16:44,800
being harmful to the education
system, that isn't creating a

1316
01:16:44,800 --> 01:16:49,400
good environment there.
And the my friend is a is a

1317
01:16:49,400 --> 01:16:51,760
very, he's a dynamic change
maker.

1318
01:16:51,760 --> 01:16:55,240
You know, he, he's one of these
people and just another

1319
01:16:55,240 --> 01:16:56,760
excellent thing that could be
for the community.

1320
01:16:56,760 --> 01:17:00,960
And so he got so much pushback
at the beginning from fishermen

1321
01:17:01,040 --> 01:17:05,040
that didn't want him on the
creeks bringing people there.

1322
01:17:05,480 --> 01:17:08,280
And that was something so far of
like, I'm an outdoorsman.

1323
01:17:08,280 --> 01:17:10,760
I like fishing and hunting, but
it was something so far from

1324
01:17:10,760 --> 01:17:13,120
where mine my mind was at
thinking about what he was

1325
01:17:13,120 --> 01:17:16,800
trying to do.
And ironically, he's a pastor as

1326
01:17:16,800 --> 01:17:21,120
well.
So like, you know, it's just

1327
01:17:21,120 --> 01:17:22,520
funny how we come to learn those
things.

1328
01:17:22,520 --> 01:17:24,720
But what a what a fantastic
cherry on top of.

1329
01:17:24,840 --> 01:17:26,480
It's my privilege to be here
with you.

1330
01:17:26,760 --> 01:17:28,480
Thank you.
I would push back a little bit

1331
01:17:28,480 --> 01:17:30,240
on that.
I think the privilege was mine

1332
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too.
So appreciate your time, Tom.

1333
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Thank you very much.