Sarah Hankes - Wildlife Woodburning, Grandma's Feedback & Finding Your Style | Episode #64

0:00 What's up friends, welcome back to Rooted Wisconsin. Appreciate you for clicking another episode. Grateful to have you here. Today's episode is with Sarah Hankes from Blue Horse fine art, unbelievable wood burned art that she makes guitars, any piece of wood she can get her hands on is unbelievable. Specializes in wildlife, so many cool like wolves, white tailed deer, fish, horses and a whole lot more. Great conversation too. We talked about her journey into the arts. She has a painting background, how she was introduced to it by her grandmother and some impactful teachers throughout her life, and much much more. Passion for art is clear and a really fun conversation. As always, shout out to our sponsors. Carouser delivering non alcoholic beverages straight to your door.

0:51 If you're thinking about limiting alcohol in your life, Carouser is the place to start. Fantastic folks, great product and they're ready for you. All you got to do is click the button. Epic Mortgage, great partners of the podcast space and much much more. Epic Mortgage focusing on the human element of buying a house and helping you work through that process. It can be confusing. Let Epic Mortgage help and another shout out to our sponsor Genuine Lynn making cool Whisco Roots apparel right above my head. You can see the hats. Check out her website. Cool thing she does is for high school athletic clubs is a large part of her business and you can have a shop for your high school or your business up that people can order and get made on demand. So you don't end up with a ton of this inventory. You can have this revolving door of apparel coming to you. She makes some really cool one off projects as well to check out her website.

1:52 Sponsors are what keep these episodes coming. Appreciate them and we appreciate you for being here. Let's get this episode started with Sarah Hankes. So. Have the ways we try to lift our neighbors. So we usually just start chatting and then he'll start the episode wherever. It's like natural progression where the road's pretty bad today. Yeah.

2:35 Well, actually there were definitely slimy, but we had the truck, so it worked out pretty good. So. But it's more like following some of the really slow people, like, yeah, of course it's Wisconsin. You know that almost make it more dangerous sometimes when you go like super super slow. Right. But you know, I'm guilty of doing that in my car sometimes, like I'm that person who's driving like the grandma. And I feel bad because I know that there's people behind me, so sometimes I will pull off so they can pass me. But yeah, you know, trying to be courteous, but it doesn't always work out that way and. Patience is a virtue for everybody. Yeah, we were. You know, I was having a discussion with my boyfriend about that the other day with people who road rage so bad. I noticed like Manitowoc County seems I think it's bad for it because I moved up there a while, like I didn't grow up there.

3:18 So it's I always laugh because like some of the people, like my daughter when she was learning how to drive, like some of the people Rd. Raging were so bad. Yeah. It's almost entertaining though, in a sense like. It is it. So that's something I've like, that's a been a point of intention for my life. Like I'm really trying to get better at that. It's funny because like in the grand scheme of life, I'm very laid back, like almost about almost everything. But it's something about driving and I had AI had an anger expert who from here in Green Bay on a few months ago. Oh, that. Had to be cool. Super cool dude and we talked about it a little bit and he had a lot of cool points that make sense about how like being like, how are we perceiving the others driving? So like, is it someone who's stopping us from getting a goal in our head or we have to be there super quickly? Or like, what's the true reason behind anger when you're driving specifically?

4:15 And I thought it was fascinating to think about because my wife's been, she, she's laughed at me since we got together. We've been together over 10 years now. And she's just like, you're always just so chill until you drive. There's that one trigger point for everybody. Yeah, yeah. And we have a four year old and stuff, so I got to tame it down. Got. To tame it down. But I get it. But good. I'm glad you got here safe. Appreciate you coming. Thank you and I've been excited to chat. Like it's awesome that you brought this huge piece for everybody to look at because like I found you on TikTok and like the the quality of it jumps off the screen and I was just super intrigued by it. I love wildlife art the way it is and it's and it seems like that's one of your focus, if not the focus area. Is that right, the focus?

5:03 Like I will do things that people ask me to do, but if it's outside of my regular style, you know, I begrudgingly agree, so I'll do it. But it's more of my focus is stuff in the wild. Yeah. And is that like a point of passion for you? How did that start? So that, I mean, like, I've always been into animals. Like growing up, I remember running around galloping, pretending to be a horse when I was a kid. So like, I've always wanted horses. So I eventually got horses when I was a teen. And then, you know, I always had dogs and cats and things like that growing up. And then, yeah, I just, I bought a farm. But you know what I mean? That's The thing is moving out in the country and growing up in the country, you know, you see so many animals and you kind of take it for granted a little bit, I think, when you see it from little on. But as I've gotten older, I've learned to appreciate it so much more. Yeah, absolutely.

5:49 It's like something what's immediately apparent to us in our lives. Sometimes we overlook as like normal. Yeah, absolutely. And it's easy to take things for granted and, and stuff like that. And and I don't know, anytime, anytime I feel connected to wildlife or nature, like I just feel better and then so that. At peace. It's like where we're supposed to be, kind of. 100% yeah. That's one of my go to things. I've told that to countless people. Like when you say like you're talking about just what are the things you enjoy or like when do you feel alive? For me, it's like when I'm as far in the woods as possible with a without anybody around. That's where I feel connected and feel, you know, whole.

6:33 Yeah, and it's heard a lot of people say that too. And it's so funny because like growing up, you know, in the country and playing in the woods and climbing trees when I was a kid, like, you know, you don't really take that until you. I mean, I then I moved to the city for a while. Like not the city city, I would guess if you want to call it like Fond du Lac city, but I've lived in town and it was kind of a culture shock for me. Like I had fun with it, but at the same time that I found myself starting to really miss that nature. So it's, I mean, it just you take it as something that's always going to be there until you don't have access to it as much anymore, so. Yeah, absolutely. Again, it's easy to yearn for when you don't have it for a while. Yes, absolutely. So where does art start? I'm assuming this isn't like this.

7:14 This obviously isn't your first piece. Is this the first style of art? Or where does art start for? You it's been progressing so much over the years. It's it's honestly kind of like one of those things where I feel like it's kind of taken its own path, you know, if I just kind of let it. So I started out I drew since I could pick up a pencil like I grew up in a lawnmower shop because my parents own 1 and I was bored, you know, like I had neighborhood friends to play with. So I do remember drawing from like little on and then grandma was a really awesome painter and I never really knew she was that great of a painter, but she had like an arts and crafts room. So I go visit her and everything. And eventually she started teaching me how to paint little by little. Like we started off just painting like those little plaster like figurines. So we always had fun going to the art store and doing that.

7:56 And then over time she started teaching me, you know, different things in art. It's kind of, I laugh about it because she just had this nature about her that she was such a good teacher and you'd never really know it because she was, I want to say she's a quiet woman. She's kind of a blunt woman. But I needed that a little bit. Like there's things that obviously like I would do and then she'd be like, you could do so much better. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, I mean, I she taught me how to paint. And then from there I tried to experiment with different mediums and things like that. Eventually I wanted to go to school to be an art teacher, so I took some art courses in college, and I always had really great art teachers throughout high school too, so I always had that influence that I wanted to keep doing it. And yeah, eventually it progressed onto this, which was just kind of a fun twist of events and how it happened. So how did Yeah then?

8:41 Then how did you start burning wood? So in 2014, I started for a few months and I got one of those like they have, you know, you go to Hobby Lobby or I. Had one as a kid, like the the small wood burning kids you're talking about, yeah. Looks like a little soldering iron or whatever. So I started out with one of those and I, I sucked at it. You know, it's just kind of one of those things where I could do the lines and I could do the simple things and I thought it was fun for a second. So it's kind of passing novelty. But then then I think a couple years ago I bought, I bought like a another cheap wood burner because I'm like, I kind of came short of my dad for Christmas. I need to make him something. So I made him a shop sign and it was just real simple. Like it wasn't artistic by any means. It was just a little like grandpa's shop sign. So he thought it was like the coolest thing ever. So then all of a sudden, I want to say it was last year, last summer, I was in, he walks in, he's a big rummage sailor. He likes in marketplace.

9:30 Like he likes to go and buy all these random use things. So he was out rummage sailing and he walks in with this old vintage wood burner. Like I mean, so they looked like it was from like the 70s. It's all metal. And I'm thinking great, it's going to be interesting. Like it's probably going to work like crap. And I think I sat there with it for probably 2-3 months before I actually fired it up. And I'm like things like game changer. Like it got really hot and it maintained its heat and I was able to do so much more with it. And you know, so I then I realized people really liked that style of work. And then I'm like, what else can I challenge myself to do with it? And then it kind of progressed from there. Really. Then by I wouldn't say the following January. So yeah, I want to say not last year, the year before. So the following January I challenged myself to do like this 9 foot piece and it went really good and it just got me hooked.

10:20 Couldn't stop after that. So I'm not stopping. That's. So cool. And that's the one that's in like your TikTok videos now with the loop at the end of it. Is that the is that the tool you're talking about that he bought at the rummage sale? Yeah, it's kind of hard to explain. So it has the loop. I I've actually gotten some different ones since then. OK, so I still have the rummage sale and they're actually, they're called Detail Master and they discontinued that brand back in like the early 2000s, I want to say. So now they're kind of a relic. You find them and it's just like I I started collecting them actually on eBay and like that's the only place you could find them so. You know, if they're not making them anymore, you have to like with what you're making. You can't stop doing this. So like load them up, fill up your garage. Yeah, that's exactly what I did. But I didn't know a whole lot about wood burning either at that point in time. So like so I bought, I had the first one that my dad gave me and then I bought two or three more and just, and actually, as I say, just in time, I bought one more and then the original one that I had blew up.

11:13 Like I was actually doing a TikTok live and it blew up on live. Like there was smoke everywhere. It smelled like burnt plastic. And I'm like, oh, this is great. And I was like, literally talking about how I'm like, this thing dies. I die, I don't know, like, I love it so much. So I stocked up and got two more. And then with that original one that like burned up, I asked my dad. He's an electrician. He likes to tinker. So I'm like, hey, like what are the odds that maybe you can like, you know, see if you can fix this or have fun with it, Do whatever. So he couldn't fix it. So he ended up shipping me a what's called a burn master and it's comparable to a detail master, but they're new and they're still available, but they're really expensive. So all of a sudden I come home to this burn master sitting on my doorstep and I was like, whoa, I was so excited about it.

11:58 It was exactly what I needed. So now I know that lease those are available but. Yeah, that's awesome. There's a couple directions I want to go right now. One, let's stick on the tool for a second. How does it actually work? I've been wondering that since I watched your videos. Like, it's funny, in my mind, I'm sure this isn't how it works, but in my mind, I picture it being like held to a flame until it gets that glowing, and then you go until it cools down and then it. But is it like electric or something? How? Yeah, it's like really high voltage, like it sucks a lot of juice. OK, So like versus like the old style ones, like the ones you're going to find like Walmart or Hobby Lobby, like they, they don't, they suck juice, but they get hot and then they cool down right away. These ones maintain their heat and that, that tip gets cherry red, like 1400°.

12:39 Yeah, it's crazy. Like I'll start things on fire with it. So it's like, yeah, it's just, it's all electric. So it hooks in my wall. And then you get these I, I use an HD they call it's a heavy duty cord that hooks between there for the pen part of it. So the pen I I have a specific pen that I like to use and specific tip like a lot of people switch a lot of tips like the little metal parts in the end and I kind of stick with the same one all the time. But yeah, that kind of style of tip like you get has to be able to handle withhold that amount of heat. So it took a little bit of trial and error because I burned things up and melted some tips and you know, there was definitely some, it was a learning curve with that part. Yeah.

13:20 And well, and I think that's one thing that keeps people sometimes just from art in general is because like I, I remember so I've always been like, I'm envious of this talent. I'm not, I'm not artistically talented in this way. Like I play music and do some other things, but I'm envious of people who can bring things to life visually. And I think people like think someone with a talent like you that can make something like this is just like, wow, you got really lucky to be able to do that. But it's a ton of hard work, right? Learning how to do this and trial and error. And probably a bunch of pieces that you said earlier, like some aren't, weren't great at the beginning, but then like you develop your skill, right?

14:02 It's like anything else. It, it is, it is. But you know, I mean, I think if you're passionate about something and they say you said you're into music and I'm jealous of people who are musically inclined. So it's kind of funny. We all want. We can't have right A. 100%. Yeah, but at the same time too, like I feel like to me it wasn't a lot of work to get there just because I I had fun with it. You know, it's kind of satisfying just to be able to like, you know, just burn wood, like, I'm trying the crap out of it and just, like, ha, ha, like watching the flame. So I'm, like, having fun with it at the same time. Yeah, I get my frustration sometimes, too. But, you know, I think that's going to come, like, even with music, you know, you're getting something and you can't quite get that chord or, you know, it's you. You work with it though, and you love it enough it doesn't feel hard.

14:45 Yeah, absolutely. And I don't know, there's got to be. It looks anyway, it looks like there's like a a level of being therapeutic doing this. Is that true? You feel that? You know, and this sounds really weird and I can't even believe I'm like admitting this on a podcast, but but there's times even with painting, I used to just sit there and like I would if I didn't play anything, usually have music or a podcast or something on. And I would like if I don't have anything, I zone. And it's almost like you get to levels in your mind, like it's maybe that's like meditation. You get to levels in your mind that you're really not aware of just normally as you're functioning because like, like, you know, everything's so busy in life.

15:27 You're thinking about the next thing constantly. So it is therapeutic because I feel like I've come up with ideas and just like, you know, I guess epiphanies in my own head that I normally probably wouldn't have come up with had I just been doing my own thing, you know, clean the house or Yeah, yeah, just normal stuff. Not probably not even always connected to art, but just connected to life, right? Epiphanies about what you should something you could do at work differently, or something you could do in a personal relationship differently or something, right? Yeah, absolutely. You start not dissecting necessarily, but thinking about things in depth. And you know, I think in a certain sense to just about life in general. And it's given me a lot of gratitude towards life I think because, you know, you kind of think about things that you really are appreciative of.

16:13 I mean, so that you think about things that are problems in your life and dissect them that way and try to solve them. But at the same time, too, so it is therapeutic. Like, I feel like, I don't know, I really kind of wonder where I'd be without art, you know? Yeah, yeah, it's almost something that, one, it's something a lot of times that needs to come out of you, but two, sometimes you need it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I think a lot of people look at meditation as this like grandiose word. And I, I wish more people were connected to and like knew about meditation. So I've, I've went through this roller coaster of life of like, I'll meditate really well for a couple months and then things get busy and I let it fall to the wayside. And then like I'll realize a couple months in like, Dang, like I need to do this again. And my life and, and outwardly, I'm sure my presence is, is more positive and effective when I'm on the top of the mountain meditating.

17:09 I am not doing it. Absolutely. I feel like it's a kind of like general maintenance in your life really. But I mean, that's a funny thing too is I feel like what I do is like accidental meditation. Like it's not planned. It just kind of happens sometimes where I'm just in that peaceful setting where my mind wanders and you know, you can kind of look at one thought and just kind of go on to the next. But it's funny because I used to be into like, I never really understood the concept of meditation until then. Like I would do yoga classes when I was younger and stuff and not really, you know, I would lay there and be like happen cold or something, you know, like, yeah, like you don't really drown out everything around you when you're so into something that you're almost on autopilot. It's just weird how that happens. And all of a sudden somebody described what what meditations like for them.

17:52 I'm like, that's kind of what it's like when I'm doing my art. So I guess it's I don't know if it is the same thing, but I think it is because I feel like it's helped me a lot. Yeah, that's such a good point. And that's kind of what I was getting at. Like it's, it's not, it's not one specific way. You're just trying to quiet the noise. Like I've had a couple conversations. I like hunting, I hunt a lot and I've talked with like friends who hunt and I'm like when you're in the woods, like I don't know, to me like if I do an all day sit during the rut, that's an 8 hour meditation. For me, like it. Quiets the noise. It allows me to think about different segments of my life. Like I, I try not to be a scroller in the deer stand. Like I try to leave my phone in my pocket.

18:34 And like a lot of people that I've talked with like don't even don't make that connection. They were in the similar seat to you. Like, meditation is one thing, but this is something I like to do when really one of the reasons you like to do it is because it's meditating. Yeah, it's almost kind of like a byproduct of it. And I always think of it like, because I've talked to other people before who said the same thing. And you know, I mean, it's like you get out there in your nature and you're not, there's so many outside distractions in normal everyday life where, you know, I mean, like, I could sit there in between and be like, I'm going to take a quick break and go scroll. You know, it's so easy to do and it you don't even think about it half the time. You know, you're going to look something up on your phone and all of a sudden you automatically go to social media. You get wrapped up in that for a while and then, you know, I mean, it takes away from a lot of that quiet space that I think that we don't normally hold for ourselves. So like being in the woods like that, I can't even imagine when you have, you know, 8 hours, however many hours, they're just sitting there with nothing but nature around you and no noise and nothing to distract your mind. So I think that's that's really cool, actually. Oh.

19:35 It's amazing. It's, it's one of my, it's one of my favorite presences to, to be in like right when the sun starts to come up and you get to wake up with the woods and like eventually the birds start chirping. And then if you're lucky, you hear a little crunch, crunch, crunch. And it's man, I don't know. It's kind of wild though, because if you think about it, like with so many distractions with everybody nowadays, like feel like the world would be a better place if everybody got the opportunity to be able to do that, you know? 100%. Like, I think that's part of it too, is just because like the distraction, like the level of distraction that we have is just so increased now. And it keeps getting worse and worse and worse. So it's like, like the state of the world gets crazy. Everybody's more stressed out and.

20:16 More stressed out we have like instant dopamine in our pocket whenever you want like I found you on TikTok is in the middle of a scrolling on my couch. You know the 30 minutes in and like I've always said you don't remember your best day of watching TV. You definitely don't remember your best day of scrolling social media either. But it's these instant little dopamine shots that keep people running, and we're certainly not going to turn the tide on that. But I think the more people can just take a few minutes here and there to intentionally quiet things. Absolutely. I mean, I do think that there's a lot of benefit with social media and things like that because I've learned so many things from like YouTube or from, you know, from TikTok too. I mean, like, so I have a little farm and learning how to do things on my own before I met my amazing boyfriend, like he helps me out a lot.

21:05 And but before that I'm sitting here like, I remember my my furnace, like I was late on calling to get oil and I'm like, of course, when the furnace shuts off because it runs out, they got there like the same day or whatever. And I'm like, I'm probably going to run out. And I did, but I was only out for like an hour, but I had to restart that furnace myself. And I'm like, I don't know what I'm doing. So I found it on TikTok on how to do it. But then I'm sitting here like in my girl power mode, like, yeah, I did that myself. Yeah. And even like fixing my lawnmower. So little things like that. I mean, social media definitely has its place, but it's hard not getting into the habit of just scrolling. Like, I know I'm guilty of it, absolutely, but. Yeah, most of us are at different points.

21:47 Yeah, yeah, I mean, you're certainly right. Like our the 1st house my wife and I bought like I, I pretty much remodeled the whole thing as a YouTube contractor. I just learned things on YouTube and just kind of went with it. And it is there's a ton of value and that's the, you know, that's I never would have found your art without social media. Like you wouldn't, you'd have to go through more traditional channels 20 years ago to share your art. Like you'd be at the local events and you might have to have like a brick and mortar store or something. Now you can like film yourself making it, get people involved in the story and then share your talent and your art via this medium. So there's obviously a ton of benefits too. Like a lot of life, it's balance. It really is like I will have to say like because I I did Facebook for a long time with my art and that was with my paintings and stuff.

22:39 And I really didn't, you know, you know, get anywhere with it as far as getting followers or anything until I hit TikTok, you know, and sometimes it just takes that one, you know, but yeah, I mean, the going out and actually networking like I went if I work full time too, so I wouldn't have had the time for that. And, you know, maybe maybe that in the future, maybe I won't have to work, you know, as hard full time, you know, because then I have this if I grow a little bit more, but in that aspect too, like I definitely have made a lot of sales from TikTok that I would not have made. I'm sure even just in person networking you have more of a Direct Line to, you know your your target market versus a. 100% yeah.

23:21 Target market perked my ears up. Right marketing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, and it looks like kind of continuing down that path a little bit. I'm, I'm, I'm guessing or assuming that a lot of your work is like one on consignment right now, right? Like not consignment. What's the word for that? On Commission? Yeah, right. Where someone reaches out to you with a project idea and you bring it to life. Like the guitars and stuff or or do you create and then sell? Or what's the mix? Between I do have a big mixture actually. So like this stuff, I mean, I'm actually working on a lot of stuff. I'm going to be at the Midwest Horse Fair in April and I realized I barely have anything for it. So that's what this is for is I'm starting with that, you know, just starting a lot of original pieces. And I feel like I enjoy doing the original pieces more because I can just kind of take what's in my brain and burn it on to a chunk of wood.

24:11 So I do enjoy doing that, but I do commissions, like Christmas was crazy with missions. So it's a lot of dog portraits and things like that. But like, and I have fun with them and I love doing that for somebody, but at the same time, like that's not 100% where my heart is. Does that make sense? A. 100% yeah. Like it's, I mean like anything else, if, if it's something that comes out of you because it's in you and there's no outward pressure, that's the the roots of our artisticness. Absolutely, absolutely. And sometimes people give you complete artistic freedom, which is awesome. Like the guitars that's kind of AI had a couple commissions for guitars and normally I stop doing custom commissions of guitars because I work with somebody out of Arizona and he ships me all the guitar bodies and then he does all the assembly. So that one's it's one-of-a-kind guitars. Like he's right now he's only on Instagram, but he's just starting out and he used to do like steel guitars and steel instruments years ago and he sold to quite a few big names and then he got out of it because of the purists. So we are collaborating and doing this. So yeah, the Commission part with that, I did a couple of them and then I, I cut it off there just because I got to be a little bit too much.

25:21 We're throwing money around because I'm throwing money at him to assemble. And then I'm just like, let's just streamline this. Yeah. And you have this really long lead time of like you have a bunch of invested in it, but you have, you know, you can't sell it for like, how long did this take? This, this this horse one? OK. That's not the norm. That's not, it's not the norm that it only takes me a couple of days, but I would say that only took me about 12 hours, maybe 16. OK. But a lot of times I'll be stuck on one thing and trying to make a decision about something and it'll take me closer to like a week. So it can take me up to 20-30 hours. But yeah, really depends obviously on the size of detail. But I was experimenting with a, with a torch on this and different size torches. So I have the butane torches and I wanted to get some cool effects of the clouds and everything. I.

26:03 Was gonna say that's the clouds and in here that's this is torch work. Yeah. OK. Yeah. So that was, I don't know, something, I haven't used this much torchwork before and a piece, but it was fun and I got some really cool effects with it. So. And then it flowed. Like sometimes you get things that don't flow and sometimes you get things that do. A lot of times I think what takes the longest is actually just the drawing itself, getting the proportions right. There's still things sometimes where I'm like, I'm working on a piece right now with a calf and a horse and I'm like, something's wrong with his jaw. I I know, I just know it. Like everybody says, it looks good, but you know, yeah. There's that piece that you can see. Yeah, like I can pick it apart and that's all that jumps out at me at that point. So then I get stuck on that and it takes a while to fix it so.

26:45 Yeah, it's awesome. It's it's just so striking. Thank you. And it's like the same you, you know, in person like you mentioned actually the smaller one behind you about how you or maybe not that one, but the other couple that you put some kind of finish on and something and it took away some of the detail you said. Yeah, I could show those off too. So I use Poly acrylic. And The thing is like, so do you have TikTok videos of this one? Yeah, I do have this one. So I did that one and it was very contrasting and very detailed. And it's usually put the Poly acrylic and this is, I'm pretty sure it's a cherry burl. And each wood reacts so differently. So a lot of it's learning about how woods behave and especially when you put a finish on it. And this one for some reason, it just dulled it down a little bit.

27:30 So I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna have to probably go through and try to do some tweaks to it. But but same with. The horns on that one are just crazy like that. That seems like it would be a harder part to me, the detail of the horns. I was a little scared of them, but honestly, like it's weird because I feel like deer antlers are more tough than what this was because this is a lot of line work. Like you can kind of see how the lines go. So as long as you do a fine line and a lot of times it just you can do a fine line with I, I use a spoon tip on like everything. So I know like a lot of pyrographers probably laugh at me because there's probably a lot of opportunity and I'm missing by not using all these other tips. But if you reduce the heat, you can get a really fine line still. I'm like, it's just a more playing with the heat than it is than it is actually playing with the tips and switching things out, at least in my experience. Everybody's different in how they burn, but yeah. So you actually brought up something there a minute ago that I've been intrigued by and excited to ask you about the different types of wood.

28:27 Yeah. What types of wood do you use? And how do you acquire it? What's the prep work necessary? Like I, I knew a bunch had to go into that because like, I mean, if you've ever burned a fireplace, you know that this wood burns different than this wood and they're all going to react differently. So how does how does that whole thing work as part of the art? That's so funny actually, because like, things that I never thought I'd burn on ended up burning better for me. So. OK, so most pyrographers are all like, oh, let's do basswood. Like it's, you know, basswood's probably the easiest way to go. A lot of carvers use that too. It's kind of a softer wood, and it does burn great. And you have a kind of high contrast, but I feel like it's, so I don't know, like what the word I'm looking for is. It's almost generic because it's just there's not a lot of grain involved.

29:17 It's kind of, you know, basic. Yeah, it's very basic. Like go to Hobby Lobby and get some of those round basswood pieces. And I like to do portraits on them because they allow you a little bit more control. But somebody to order, I went to, I ordered the sawmill in Winneconne and they had like the most beautiful woodcuts there. And of course, everything I went there for like like one slab. I wanted to buy that like a really big piece. So I went and bought a giant piece of pine. But as I'm there, I ended up spending way more than I intended to because I'm like, that's beautiful. That's beautiful. I'm not sure how it's going to burn, but we're going to try it. So then I, I had the opportunity in that case to experiment with a lot of different cuts. And I'm glad I did because some of the things that I didn't think would burn very well, like black walnut burns beautifully. It's a harder wood, you know, but the, the lines are so clean.

30:00 So there was a guy out of he was in Chicago and he wanted it for his office and he wanted to have like Lake Saint Clair. Is it Lake Saint Clair? I think it's, it's called, it's like over by Canada, kind of. So he musky fishes there and there's like the colony towers in the background. And I'm thinking to myself, I'm like, I don't know how to get that detail in the back. But with that kind of wood, it was actually relatively easy. So I feel like each wood has its purpose. And you know, I mean, obviously prepping, it's really important and I've learned that along the way because I've had some that have like these wild waves in it. Like, you know, I'm sitting here thinking, I thought I sanded it enough and here I didn't. So sanding is really important to have a good flat surface. You can work with the grain in some cases, but I definitely feel like it's been kind of a little trial and error again, just on that aspect of it. Sure.

30:45 Yeah. And most of the time if you're going to buy them, that's just that's just rough cut slabs, right. So you have to sand that all down perfectly smooth and stuff before you start on it. Yeah, typically. And he had a couple pieces there. They're actually already pretty smooth. But you know, I mean, they still benefited from a little bit sanding because he planes them and everything there and then they're all kiln dried. So that's, that's actually one thing I should bring up is that like having a dry enough wood is really important because then it's nothing like selling in a high dollar piece and then starts splitting like so you know, just something that's already, you know, it's, it's dry, you're not going to have to worry about any issues. And plus it burns better in general. Yeah, the so the first podcast studio I had actually, I had this massive Maple, I think they call them cookies. And it was humongous.

31:29 It was like, and it was kind of shaped like an Oval, so at its widest place it was probably like 5 feet wide. Oh my gosh. It was humongous and I had someone I can't remember the. Lacquer or whatever, like yeah. Like the goopy stuff. I can't remember if it's lacquer. That's what I immediately wanted to say. I can't remember the the phrase of it, but it's like a clear surface over. The oh is it almost kind of like a like a resin, not resin. Yeah, like a like a resin. Absolutely. Epoxy. Epoxy. Yes. That's the word. I should know this because actually that's you're going to go buy epoxy after we appear so nice. Nice. So yeah, I got an epoxy top on it. It had this this like crack in it that filled with that was filled with resin and then epoxy over the top. Was it the colored resin?

32:17 Yeah. Oh, those are beautiful. Like the river tables. Oh, it's beautiful. I love those. Yeah, it was beautiful, but I don't think the cookie was quite dry enough before all that was done and it ended up cracking. Yeah, I did it in a room in my house that I just put like a mini split in on the wall and that was the heat and air conditioning. It didn't have HVAC running to it. Okay, so I think the combination of maybe not being quite dry enough and the temperature swings were wild. So that room would be, you know, 20° in the winter. And I think the freeze thaws, like when I walked in one day and there was this crack in the epoxy and I was like, darn it. Just the worst. Yeah. So I'm sure there's a ton that go into it.

32:59 You mentioned hardwood in there. So I'm, I, I have a particular affinity for hardwood. I make Maple syrup. So I'm really connected to Maple. That's awesome, my stepdad does that too. Oh really? Just for the family, but have. You ever helped? No, I want to though really bad. It's super fun, it's a ton of work, but it's another way to be connected to the outdoors. At a great time laughing one day because he had like he came up with a contrap. I, I don't know what you want to call it, but I went out in the garage I was visiting and he has this big pot and he had like egg beaters or something in a drill and he has a hanging from the ceiling feeling rafters just stirring this Maple syrup. And he's that kind of guy. He just like. Just crafted up this this like way of stirring it.

33:40 Yeah, he just rigs things up to see fit and like, I wish I could remember sometimes some of the weird inventions he's come up with over the years, but he just, he makes it work somehow. And he's like, I'm not standing out there stirring that for that long. And I'm like, OK. Speaking of another life talent, when people can just like, take the stuff laying around to just make cool things out of it. Yeah, but actually along the Maple syrup line, our sugar shack where we make Maple syrup. Sugar Shack. I love it. Yeah, yeah, My dad built our sugar shack just out of like stuff that was laying around his house. And I'm like, I just, I don't have that talent. You know, dead stuff blows my mind too. It's sort of like, yeah, you can just take something and just, you know, like you could take junk and make something creative out of it. Like I've seen people who have like, some of these really cute garden shacks and like, yeah. Or they'll like repurpose, like metal garbage and make it into things.

34:27 There's so many people who have, like, that kind of mind where they could see something. I, I see it and I'm like, oh, that needs to be thrown away. Yeah. Yeah. But then, but then the the hardwood like you can still do it on. What is that good for? Like what is it Maple, oak, what is that more traditional like hardwood? What can you make on that that maybe is good for? As far as like, just for what kind of burning? Yeah, yeah, 'cause you said different ones do different things, right? So what? What's good for hardwood? I would say just something with really clean lines, like if you're going to have something that doesn't have a lot of darkness in the background, you know, I mean in general, you're going to have really good clean lines with that versus like basswood you're going to have, this is actually maybe just my ear, but I burn a really high heat. So which I feel like that's kind of like what my style is in general.

35:14 So when I'm burning on a softer wood, like I have kind of scorch lines around like, and then I have to do some sanding and a little bit more after work. Like if I'm doing a hardwood also like we have some of the darker ones with more more green. I use a little bit of water down acrylic paint for my highlights so the cool part with that is it just stands out and pops then. That's interesting. So there's some acrylic paint in these pieces too. Yep, absolutely. Oh yeah, super cool. That's what like you can see some of the like the white highlights in there and it's just very, very subtle. But it's more in the application as what? Oh, sure, like up on the horse's mane, OK. And then even if you look in the background too, there's like in the sky here, there's like the highlight areas.

35:56 And it's just, I applied it a little differently, obviously, than I would have with with the rest of the horse because I want that to be more like, bam, there's the horse. And then those are really subtle. So all they did is water it down and just kind of rub it in instead of brush it. That makes sense. So like there's different ways to apply it. So I feel like some of the ways that my grandma taught me through the painting process is really come in handy with us too. So and I thought about doing the colored, like slight colored. I don't, I did try doing like a colored pyrography piece where I painted too and it ended up looking like some kind of dollar store knock off, like it did not work. So I feel like I want to do something but subtle. So I feel like this little journey is going to go on some different spots too, you know?

36:39 Yeah, and he said it was like 2014 ish. You said you started burning wood. That was my first time for a couple months and then I quit. That's the first time I ever picked up a wood burner. Okay, so I did it for a couple months and I'm like, yeah, that was fun. Like, you know, let's go back to painting again. Cuz sure. Yeah, I was getting frustrated with it wouldn't stay hot or whatever. And then I wanted, I don't remember what year it was that I did my dad sign. But then I'm just like, well, the wood burners that you get like on Amazon, usually they don't have very high longevity. So if you're going to do like a big, big sign, it's going to last just for that sign. Like after that, you can just call it garbage because it's not going to heat up anymore. So yeah, that's kind of what happened. I did the sign. That little pyrography thing didn't work. So I threw it out and it worked, but it barely worked at that point.

37:22 I burned it out. So then, you know, it wasn't until the rummage sale one that I actually the burn master, Yeah. That's so awesome. So then the other angle that I think would be super interesting to talk about for a while. You mentioned your grandma again and just like people in your lives, influence on your art. I think that's another thing we undersell at times is like the the influence that others, especially those that we care about and the intersection of that and what our passions develop into. I think about that all the time. I have a four year old so like I think about how, you know, you think about it by osmosis, but like he's paying attention and that's going to like mold the things that he ends up discovering passions and finding things that he likes.

38:12 So in your instance, not surprising to hear that several, you know, your grandma teachers throughout the years have had an influence on that. Is your grandma still around? She's not. She's not unfortunately, but I was going to say that was because I'm trying to think how old. I think it was in my 20s when she passed away. OK, so she didn't get to see her wood burning work. No. And that's the bad part is I wish, I wish that she was around. I'd love to hear her feedback because I you know, I know she'd give me the honest feedback, too. Yeah. She, like, she's so honest about things and just blunt. That's just how she was. Yeah. And she'd surprised me sometimes with some of the things she said, like she taught me a little bit about even like, art theory and stuff. Like she'd go through books.

38:53 And I remember being grossed out by, like, some of the artistic stuff in there. I'm like, EW, like you'd see the topless mermaids. And she's like, she's like, that's art, Sarah. Yeah, there's nothing wrong with it. The human body is beautiful. So I always just thought that was funny because she's very Catholic, like, OK, you know, very religious. And then just to hear that come out of her mouth, I was like. Sounds like a fascinating woman. She really was like, it was just, you know, she on the surface level when you see her, she's just your regular cookie baking grandma. She collected apples, but she had more to her. So it was kind of funny because I think she had a wild woman under her. Like, yeah. And well, that's a that's a theme, right? Like you said, she was very Catholic.

39:33 Sometimes I I think those two ideas, like artists, I think inherently are a bit more free spirited. Yes, and I think she was underneath it all, but she kind of had this. You know, that's hard to say because I, I, you know, I had limited time with her versus, you know, like my dad and my aunts and uncles might have a different view. Yeah, and it it could be. And, and at that's at her age and when she grew up and stuff, a lot of people that I've spoken from with, from that generation, like that is a generational thing, you know, like where Speaking of influences and passions, like, you know, maybe the religious side of things was a different.

40:14 Set of people influences in our lives and then you discover this other piece of yourself that can come out too and you wonder what her just thoughts were throughout her life. Just hearing a little bit about her, she sounds fascinating to be like, you know, navigating the waters in between, OK, on this side of the river is this person. On this side of the river is the other person. And it's awesome. Well, and it's so funny, you know, and going back to our initial conversation, even about like when we're talking about road rage, yeah, and how people, so people are so multidimensional, you know what I mean? That's what actually floors me is like people are just multidimensional in general where you can see, you know, like, like there's service level Brad walking around and people get a certain impression of you, but they don't really know what's underneath.

40:54 That's where I go with the road rage. It's like, OK, so people may have had a really bad day. Something could have happened, you know, you really don't know. But it's so easy to react to that kind of stuff too, where it's sort of like, OK, this person's driving like complete, you know, complete jerk. But we really don't know what the situation is, you know? 100% yeah. Empathy is important. And then like, I think as humans, our brains like to, we like to categorize, right? It's a natural. So we like to put people in these little boxes, but then like the person doesn't fit in that box, right? That's not the entire thing. That's a little piece of them, yes, but there's way more to it. It's like kind of funny having that reminder of people, even people that you grew up with. And like, I only got a hint of that other side of my grandma when she would say those like random things that were just shocking to me.

41:39 This. Is art Sarah? She's just so funny on how she approached it. You know, I'm sitting here thinking of her as just this devout Catholic woman when she had this whole other artistic like, like you said, free spirited side that I think was kind of hidden in there that sometimes came out. So it's like you said, putting people in boxes. It's so easy to do, but I think our brains want to take shortcuts sometimes and that's just the easiest way to do it. 100%, Yeah. Well, I think let's talk about feedback a little bit because that's a really fun topic. So that honest, authentic feedback is really important in life. Like to have someone like, it's OK to tell you like, you know, this, this sucks.

42:19 Like we can do better than this. And then it sounds like she gave you all the tools to do that too. And those people in our lives are few and far between. So when you think about the voices that come and impact those passions will continue on down that trail, the ones that will authentically say, hey, like this one missed the marker a little bit or like even even someone telling me like, you know, hey, you're being a Jackass right now. Like, settle down. Yeah, you. Need that that brutal push of honesty actually goes so far like. Yeah. Do you think you'd be the artist you are without it? Absolutely not. I needed that, definitely needed that because of the thing too is like initially when you're first starting out and you're like, you know, I mean, you're starting to get surprised by, you know, the gifts that you do have. It's I, I don't know, I mean, I think everybody should have a start, be able to strive to like push to get better at things, no matter how good you are.

43:12 But at the same time, seeing that when you're younger, it's so easy to be kind of arrogant about it when you're younger and think you don't have to change. So I hear I am like a 10 year old. My grandma's just like you could do much better. And I'm just like, thanks, grandma. But now I've met people too, You know, it's kind of funny over the years too. I have a a friend that I had in high school and her mom and I became friends because she so she just retired and she realized she's like this phenomenal painter and she has a great eye and I can get a really good dose of brutal honesty from her. And I love that because actually I did a guitar for somebody and I put it on social media and she calls me up and she's like, you're missing the spot here. I left a spot for the bridge, like for the actual saddle or whatever, the bridge where everything connects.

43:55 And, you know, I just don't burn there just because what's the point? Yeah. So she's like, you missed a huge spot. You need to fix that. Like, it looks, she's like, it looks great everywhere else, but that's just, that's not right. And I'm like, oh, that's a spot for the bridge. But yeah, like that fact that she said that meant the world to me because like I, I need that in a lot of cases, but she'll send me things too and have me critique them. And that we know we have that relationship where you could be super honest with each other and we can pick our our work apart and be OK with it. Like we're not offended. So, you know, and sometimes I think it depends on the person, like if they're like always so positive and then they're just like, yeah, you need to fix that. I'm just like what happened? Yeah, it's not really saying like this sucks. It's a, you know, saying it in the right way. Yeah, like if my mom, my mom's always like perpetuated, she's like one of those positive people that I know. So it's so funny.

44:45 And she's like, if if I sent her something and she told me that there's something wrong with it or look bad, I would be shocked. Like, I don't know how I would be appreciative, but I'd be really surprised, you know? Yeah. Yeah, it's so important. So like my, you know, the normal job is being a teacher and like that's such an important part about that of like. And that's to be hard too, though, like I think giving that constructive feedback, or in that case, like that's part of teaching. So it has to be, yeah. I'm sure you get used to it though, right? It is No, you're right. It's, I mean, it is a fine line. You have to balance like I always try to pick out the good pieces first.

45:26 Like you can find the gift in anything. Like if someone puts time into making something, there's going to be something in there that you can say, hey, this is really good. Like this is what we can build on. And then it's the areas of growth like this could be better. Can we think about this a different way? And it's certainly a balancing act, though, because there is value in talking about things that are poorly done or bad because that's where growth happens. And the what's what's usually on my mind when I am in that zone or doing that type of work is just maintaining the motivation. Because there's a way that your grandma could have said it at 10 years old that would have made you stop.

46:09 Like there's a way that she could have said it and delivered the message that would have said, OK, and this maybe this isn't for me and I'm off the way. Even if it wasn't like from a place of animosity or anything like that, it was just like maybe 2 blunt or something could have stopped you. And that's something I think about because, I mean, you know, we all know the percentage of people that start college and then graduate in the disparity between the two things. And one of the reasons is definitely that sometimes if you don't get the right kind of constructive growth field feedback, it can push you in a different direction. So that's constantly on my mind balancing that with directing and supporting growth.

46:49 Yeah, I think you're on to something with that because you always hear about the what is it the managerial context where they say like, say something positive, have the meat of the situation, like the criticism between then end it with something positive. And I've always heard that. So I I like even with, you know, I mean other friends who are just like, hey, how does this look? If there's something that definitely needs to be fixed, I'll be like, I love this part. You know, I'll start it with I love most about it. And then, you know, put what I'd probably change maybe, you know, if it were if it were my style. It's The thing is everybody's so different. So you can't just be like, you know, I can't tell him to make it into my art. And then, you know, just throw the other positive stuff in there too. And what you're saying about the disparity too, between like college kids and graduation. So my daughter's in college currently and I know she there's so many days she's just like, I just want to quit because when you know, and like obviously I think some of the teachers that she has in her learning style clash and that's the hard part because she doesn't get any positive feedback from certain people too.

47:49 So it's hard. You know, they start thinking they're not cut out for it and they have no talent with it when in fact they do because all that you're hearing is a negative so. Super important. It's it's super important. And it's it's a lot like art where it's it's not like it can be a natural skill to a certain point, but it's something you have to work on and you have to be cognizant of. And yeah, it sounds like Grandma probably did that. That's good. She did, and she was positive, too. Like if there's something she liked, she was always very proud, you know? And that's The funny thing, like just I think I don't even you know, looking back as a kid, I don't know if that was that good, but she made me feel that way, you know, and the but then she would also throw the whole you can do better.

48:32 And I remember the piece too that I laugh about is because I remember going through some of the art books and they had like some of the impressionistic, like, you know, like Van Gogh, like just very, very like bold kind of lines and things like that. So I tried to do a dog in that style and it was not my style, put it that way, like it was with oil pastels and it was all smeared up and it looked like crap. But you know, at first at the and I'm, I'm just like, well, if these people like their arts, flying like this could fly, right? So Grandma's just like, no, that's not you. Again the value. Yeah, but that's the thing too, is like, you know, you kind of wonder if that part was like shut down. And I realized I'm like, OK, so I am better at different styles of art.

49:12 Just because I'm not good at that doesn't mean that I'm bad. So, you know, having that other positive feedback definitely kept that passion, you know, fire, no pun intended. I'd like it though and I so we can probably continue down that path a little bit of like feedback styles and communication styles because you're like day-to-day work is in business development, right? Yeah, correct. So that's probably like you're, you're constantly trying to have a conversation about how you can help solve someone's problem and identify an issue that you may be able to help solve. And I think like there's some skill in that that translates or cuts across because like you've being, if you're in sales, you've probably been in sales trainings your entire career.

50:00 Different things of we need to mirror at this, this instance and we need to do all of that stuff. Sometimes it gets fluffy, sometimes there's crossover. Like what have you brought any of that into? Like maybe critiquing art with your friend or like even critiquing your own art? Like how do those two worlds collide? OK, this is where it gets really funny too is because like so working in business development, I try to be actually I my sales tactic is very different than anybody's I think. I'm super. Excited Well, I, I just I operate by honesty and you know, we're just talking about this yesterday. So if you go on Amazon and I don't know about most people, I, I know what gets me to buy. So there's so much fluff online these days and people can recognize a phony salesperson from a mile away. And I feel like being honest and saying the pros and cons and can I solve your problem?

50:52 You know what I mean? Like, can I genuinely solve your problem instead of having to the problem is too is I have to deal with the customers after the fact. So if you know, they decide they're going to go with us and then all of a sudden they have nothing but problems. And I was, you know, bending the truth a little bit. They're not going to respect that. And I feel like I would be the same way. So if I'm going to go on Amazon and buy something and I see all this fluff in the advertisement half the time, like if you're reading the description and they're talking it up so much, it's like, yeah, yeah, every company says that. So I go to the reviews. Like, I want to know, what do people? What do real people say? So I try to be as real with people as I possibly can. And then that translates into art, too. Like, I want to be real. I don't want to put a bunch of fluff on things either, you know?

51:33 So I feel like transparency is really important and there's not enough of it anymore. Absolutely builds relationships, builds trust. And then someone who trusts you and knows you is more apt to not only see that you have the solution, but trust your solution, Yes. And say OK, three years down the road if they need it again. You're Sarah, right? You know, sold it, right. Yeah. The, the era of the, the era of the, you know, the used car salesman, that stigma is in the past. And I think part of that is the information we have access to. We talked about that earlier. Like there's no wool being pulled over many people's eyes.

52:14 Interestingly enough, Amazon reviews have changed a little bit over the years. Have you noticed that I I've become less reliant on them because I think they're how they've incentivized reviews? Yes, actually that's funny too that you should say that because I brought that up yesterday. Too. Did you really? Yeah, except those are like Facebook sponsored ads. So all of a sudden you look and I know I bought a supplement I think last year and I'm like, oh, these comments are saying that these people are saying and they're having success with it, it's working. So I, I purchased a supplement. I'm like, well, this is crap. It's not doing really anything for me. So of course it popped up later and I looked at those, some of the same comments, and actually maybe they weren't the same comments, but there's similar comments where people are like, oh, this is a dream. It works great. So I click on the profiles and they're fake profiles. See, it's almost gotten to the point where it's like, you have to be really smart and really discerning on what you're actually reading.

53:03 Like is is this a real, this is a real review? But in the grand scheme of things, yeah, I would trust if a friend told me it worked, then I would just be more apt to buy it, you know, or a few friends like then, you know, they had a good experience. But even still, anytime you buy something, it's going to be a risk, you know, A. 100% yeah. And I think part of what maybe started open up my eyes so that I had a couple students that were Amazon sellers. And I know a couple other people who have sold on Amazon from, you know, find a manufacturer overseas, work with them to develop this product, bring it to Amazon. And it's funny because like, I also know an author who put some books on Amazon and in order to really get any traction, you have to get those reviews pouring in.

53:51 So like I've had people ask me like, not only can you, can you leave a review? But like one person I remember vividly saying like, even if you don't buy it, just leave a review. And it didn't sit fantastically with me. Yeah, I can imagine. And then secondarily, I started thinking, OK, now if someone devotes their career to this, if this is how they're going to make money and they're in another country or whatever, wherever they are or in America, wherever really are there people who have built like a network of like 102 hundred of these people that say, OK, I'm going to put this product in Amazon.

54:32 I need this trajectory to take off right away. I'm going to drop it this day. You leave your reviews. Or where they almost have this right, there's a ring of people. Who are Yeah, I I don't know if that's the case, that's purely conjecture, but I know that I've bought stuff with 4 1/2 stars on Amazon that was all glowing reviews top to bottom. And I get it in a piece of shit, yes. Absolutely. It kind of takes you back to the do you remember the app wish? Yes, like. Never used it but yeah. I bought like, that's the thing too, is like it's been pretty rare that I bought something that I'm like, OK, I could see where maybe there is like a little discrepancy in like the quality versus how it's portrayed. But there's some things that I'm just like, what in the hell? Like I bought when my niece was born. This is a long time ago because she's she's, you know, like a teenager now.

55:21 But I remember buying this thing, it was like a baby, like a swaddler and it was furry and it was really cute. And I'm just like, oh, this is adorable. And like it looked like it had decent reviews. And this is back then already. And I get it. I get it in the mail. It is literally like, I don't know what kind of baby they thought was going to fit in this thing. Like if it was a doll, it was literally like I you could put like a newborn puppy in there. Maybe it's like. Like the 3 LB baby? Yeah, yeah. So I'm just like, well, there goes my baby gift, like one of them, you know, like, yeah, it was, but it was cheap. Like it's not like I paid a lot for it. But yeah, I just think about the quality on some of that stuff. Like you can expect that 90% of what you get, it's going to be complete trash. Yeah. And it was, but that's OK.

56:03 So I think you live and learn. But I think you're really on to something like that's I've had a couple people that maybe weren't like so comfortable, like it's a little nerve wracking to get behind a mic. You start talking and they're like, well, what if I flub up a word or can you cut it out and edit and stuff? I was like, I can, but I almost never do. Because like part of my intention with the podcast is to authentically share the stories of cool people. Authentic life is what people like yearn for and strive for. So we're talking about social media success earlier. Just as easily as people can see through that sales tactic of like being maybe a little bit too salesy or a little bit too perfect about what your stuff is, people can see that of social media content to look at the people that do really well. It's the people who are just like, unapologetically themselves.

56:53 Yes, like they get on there and I, I was kind of laughed because I see some of these people in lives and like I'm part of an agency. So there's an eclectic amount, you know what I mean? Like just different groups of people that are that are in part of this agency. And you can see that like manages your social presence or your art or. Just my live streams. So I do live streams on TikTok as well, although I've taken kind of a 2 month hiatus from it. I was going to say I haven't seen one, but I just found you about a month. Ago and actually like right around Christmas, I started taking one just to get caught up in Christmas orders and now I'm just like, OK, horse fair is coming up. I have to get going on that. So I know I, you know, they're phenomenal because I know that I'm supposed to be 15 hours per month is a minimum. I have not done that and they have not fired me.

57:34 But there's such an eclectic, you know, group of people on there and there's some people there, you know, getting up first thing in the morning these like, you know, I'm sure they're just like stay at home moms or whatever, but they're so real and so authentic, like, you know, they have their mascara smeared on their face and they have like their their top bun and they're doing great. They're killing it. You know, they're a lot of them are doing like TikTok shop and stuff like that, but it's because people crave to see the authenticity. Yeah, it's real life. It's real life. I have actually, a woman who used to cut my hair is Oneida, and she makes like these. She does this native bead work. Oh. My gosh, that's so cool. She does that on TikTok live same vibe camera down she's got a couple like her sister and I think another friend of hers and they just like talk shop.

58:20 Well, they're beading and they do super well with it. Like you'll. Help me your username. I love that kind of stuff. I will, yeah. She's awesome. So does that ever lead? Like do you connect it like that? So like when she's beating, she'll like the pieces will be sold before the live's done. Do you do that in the live? Like some cases. So people will be like, I want this one and they'll buy it. Yeah, actually it was really weird situation because it doesn't always happen like I'll be working on something and I gain the most traction going live than I have any other social media. Like you know, it's like it was saying TikTok. That's what kind of blew me up in TikTok before TikTok, barely I had any traction at all And yeah, I'll have to because I I had this one wolf. It's really funny.

59:02 It was like a had three wolves on it was that I'm not sure if that was a three wolf one or I had one wolf. I can't remember your. Wolf pieces are beautiful, by the way. Those are some of my favorites that I saw on your profile. They're amazing. Wolves are some of my favorites. OK, I have Huskies so it kind of translates like I call them my house wolves. Nice. But yeah, it was a wolf piece and it sat for a long time. I didn't sell it. And I'm like, nobody's buying this. Like I was getting really kind of, you know, like I kind of lost steam on trying to sell it. And it was sitting in the background in my picture, like when I was working on something else. And all of a sudden I had one guy who wanted to purchase it and he was, you know, saying all put some money down on it. And I said, yeah, you know, here's like the information. A lot of times I'll usually just sell it on my website. But if people want to do partial payments, they'll do like Venmo or something.

59:48 So I'm like, well, here's the information. And I didn't receive anything from him. And this got really awkward, actually. So then I was on live again and it was still in the background and all of a sudden another guy wanted it and he really wanted it. And the other guy came on and he said I'm going to go pay for it right now. And the other guy beat him to it on my website. And I was just like, I can't believe that just happened. Like I feel kind of bad but. Well, people fighting over your art though, that's awesome. That was really cool. I don't know what happened if it wasn't for live, but I have had that happen a few times too where it's like other pieces where usually it's commissions that roll in from that. Like people want their own custom work. Sure. And you know, it's mostly inquiries. You know, I would say you get a ton of inquiries and maybe 25% of those to turn into sales.

1:00:30 But it's, you know, it's fun. It's it's fun, it's interesting. It gets you more people who are it's planting seeds really is what it is. Yeah, yeah, 100%. Plenty of. I'm sure there's plenty of tire kickers who think you were going to like make something like this for 50 bucks or something. It's like she was just talking about that, too. I'm like, I'm not Hobby Lobby. Like, yeah. Yeah, the and and nor should you be, you know, like the the time and effort and skill past even doing the piece, but getting to the point where you can make a piece of this quality, like that's all value. And that's the constant tug of war in an artist's life, right? People undervalue your stuff. And then like you nicely try to say like do you you just want to say, you know how much goes into? This right, but you know, it's kind of funny too, because you get such a mixture of people like I as many of those people you get, you also get the people who were like when I was working on that 9 foot slab and I was saying the price that I was asking for and they're just like, they're like, you should charge more or you get people who are like, that's way too much.

1:01:36 So, you know, people have a different perception all across the board and I, I imagine that there's different things that go into it like where they're located in the United States or where whatever country, like obviously the cost of living is going to be different everywhere. But I know I've looked at other pyrographers that I've looked up to like love their work and for small pieces, they're charging like 5 grand. So I look at that and I'm like, gosh, you know, it's so weird in the art world and you can slap a price tag on anything because it's handmade. Somebody out there might pay it. You know, it's just that's what blows my if you, I don't know if you heard about the guy who duct taped a banana to the wall, He sold it for like a couple of million or whatever, Like, yeah, So it's just if it if it has art label on it and it's actually authentic art, I don't see the banana. I don't know.

1:02:20 That's a challenge right there. He's witty, but. Yeah, yeah, I get that. Have you been to the Art Museum in Milwaukee? Years ago, actually, I think when I was going to school to be an art teacher and I was pregnant with my daughter, I went. But yeah, it was really cool experience, except I was sick as a dog that day. OK, sometimes I get that feeling going through a place like that of like, I wonder if it's just me who doesn't get some of the stuff or like what the entire picture is because like the the banana on the wall is a good example. Like it doesn't make any sense. You know, like. No, but he calls it the comedian because he's being funny. And I think he's poking fun at people who do that stuff regularly where they do these weird artist installations. Do you know what I mean?

1:03:03 Like they do the strangest installations and it's called art and it sells for millions of dollars. It's like how how So I think he's poking fun at that in his own way. And he's, you know, it's, it's kind of a, I don't know what kind of effect you want to say because he's doing the same thing, making fun of it, but. You're right. Yeah, but in jest. Yeah. And so that actually brings up one in my mind that I saw on social media. It was like this guy had like these buckets of sand stacked up and the entire thing, there was this group of maybe like 50 people around watching this art happen and he had these buckets of stand in. The art was to push the buckets of sand over and then however it landed and everybody just clapped and was having a good time.

1:03:46 I'm like, man, I could do that right now. 100% it's like the age-old question. I mean you're not even adding color to the sand. Like come on, like it's the age-old question of like what is considered art, you know, and that's why I think you get to the point where people take the fact that it's expression way to another level. On a level. It's like kind of like anybody could do that. You know, I, and I question that too, is being into art. But there are artists out there too where they have like, like you're talking about the Art Museum and the things that have so much symbolism in them, you know, and it's kind of weird because like you have to have this like almost knowledge of how you know, the symbolism behind everything to be able to get the piece, you know, unless they actually have a description of it.

1:04:29 And I've tried to kind of go down that road with my paintings a little bit with symbolism and stuff like that. But in the grand scheme of things, I feel like I'm way more simple than that. Like I'm just, that's not really me. Like maybe there's a little symbolism there, but not like anything crazy where you're going to have something that's like surrealist art where there's like dreamlike, like something in a dream where you about like Alf being in the corner and you don't even like just something just way out there. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I think that's probably like, of course that's not black and white or cut and dry either. It's and that's the probably what I wonder what I'm missing because like an art like yours is aesthetically beautiful.

1:05:09 You can see it, you can know it's there and amazed by it when you have to like fill in the rest of the story is where it's that's where the Gray area comes as like do I not get the story? Like do I not get the story of the bucket or like what is the meaning? Or if you have to explain it too much? I think that would be hard as an artist. That is the hard part. OK. So I wonder that too, though, because as as an artist, like I like making things aesthetically beautiful. And you could still take it from your soul and just put it out there. You know what I mean? Like you can take your feelings and put them on there. Like I think every now and then I get like, I call it a craving to pay or to burn something specific. And I have a certain style that I want it to be. And you know, it kind of goes with my mood. So and it doesn't always go with my mood at that point in time. Like sometimes it's a fleeting and I'm like, that would be beautiful, though.

1:05:59 You get it from that emotion at that point in time that you get that thought. Yep. Now when it comes to pushing buckets of sand and stuff like that, I wish as an artist I understood it. I don't at all. I feel like maybe that there's some kind of, I don't know, I feel like the fact that there's all these people sitting around cheering, it's almost like they're rebels, you know what I mean? Like they're rebels of the art world. Just because people don't understand it, they like it more like, yeah, does it make sense? Right. Maybe that's the mystique. Maybe the mystique isn't being not immediately recognizable. What it? Means right. I kind of laugh about it. It's like they're all cheering and the guy next to them. Do you know what we're cheering about? No. You know, Yeah.

1:06:39 Yeah, it's it's so cool though. So actually we can dive a little bit deeper into that because I think, I think I saw this on your website, forgive me if I'm messing this up, but a core like piece of what you would call your mission or whatever you have something on your website about. Like you want the pieces to tell a story though, right? Like isn't there something about storytelling central to your art? A. Little bit a little bit like I feel like, I feel like my life kind of turns into the story where it's like obviously the horses and I'm into horses and then that's kind of been the story in itself. But realistically, I want it to be like a viewer can look at it and create a story in their own head about what this is like. Like I don't put usually anything specific about what this picture is about.

1:07:23 I want people to interpret it as their own story. You know, I feel like that's where art becomes personal to somebody because I can put what, you know, like a core emotion that I'm feeling and try to convey it onto the wood itself. But when people are looking at it, they can create that story. I think it's funny because sometimes I'll actually look at my friends, you know, the lady who retired who does the beautiful paintings. I'll look at her stuff and I'll see my own story on, you know, just kind of how I think things played out. Like she had this like sheep in a barn. And it's so simple and it's so beautiful, but you kind of get your own interpretation by looking at it on what is going on. You know what I mean? Absolutely, yeah. It's like the best songwriting, the the best songwriting. The the story is all up to the perceiver.

1:08:05 Yes, 100. Percent. Like some of the. Yeah, like, I've. I love the songs that tell a story. I really, really do. But the ones where they kind of leave it a little bit blank that you can kind of fill it in. It's just like, I think I know what's going on here, but I can't help it. I, I impulsively Google it right away to find out what it was actually about because I need to know, like, what way actually, you know, I know what I think it's about, but what do other people perceive this as? And what did the songwriter actually intend for this to be about? And sometimes it's kind of cool if they just kind of left it open and it is up to interpretation. Yeah, I've been a frequent visitor to, I think it's song meanings.net or something like that. There's a cool website where like, several times throughout my life I've googled like, what does this song mean or whatever, and brings me there.

1:08:49 And it's just, you know, it's basically like a Reddit forum, but for the meanings of songs that people think that they are. And it's fascinating. Yeah. It's really fun. And like, I'm a lyric person. That's why I listen to music. I listen to music for the words and. Yes, me too. I love, love words, just like lyrics and they're they're painting with with music, like they're painting with words is what I'm trying to say. Like 100%. It takes so much to be able to put that down. Do you write songs too? I have. Yeah, I have. I used to write more than I do now. It's funny you bring that up. I've been thinking about doing it again. I haven't for quite some time. It's, it's just one of those things, I'm a, I'm a layman on the guitar.

1:09:30 Like I can play guitar to somebody who doesn't play guitar, they're like, yeah, he can definitely play guitar. But as an artist, like, you know how this feels like you see people who can do it better than you. And I'm like, wow. It's wild. And we're talking about Jimi Hendrix on the way in. Like I'm not doing that. Yeah, but like that's the thing too is like I think sometimes, you know, that can make you grow and it can make, it can hinder you at the same time if you're comparing yourself like when you're. Because I was just talking about this the other day too. Like some of these people that I just like idolize and wood burning, the ones who charge like 5 grand for the little pieces, they do such beautiful detail work. But at the same time, I know it's not my style and I try to cram myself to be that style sometimes and it doesn't work out. So like, you still have to give yourself the freedom to be able to have, you know what I mean?

1:10:18 To be able to grow on your own in your own style. And I feel like that's probably the same with like being a musician as well. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. A big part of, like, being a successful musician who wants to do it as a job is finding your voice. Yeah. And your style and what is similar to art, It's the same thing. Like you've mentioned your style a couple times in this conversation. It's the same thing. Like, think about your favorite artists. Like you can generally hear. Most of the time you don't even have to hear somebody sing. Like, you can hear that first guitar note and you're like, oh, this is Eric Church's band. This is Tyler Childer's band. This is like, this is John Moreland playing acoustic guitar. Like, you hear it and you're like, OK, I know exactly who that person is.

1:11:02 And I can't remember how we were going to circle that in. I think when we like, have idols, like that's the thing too, is like, if you're not duplicating somebody else, like 100%. Yeah, I know. I think there are people who've tried to duplicate other artists. And, you know, I think along the way you find your own style. You have an inspiration trail with it, you know what I mean? Like, and somehow you still kind of branch out because it's still you. Yeah, well, a lot of times, especially in the music realm, if you're a band that's really close to your inspiration, that can almost be a negative because you're not your own and you're not. I can't remember the name of them right now. There's a band that sounds exactly like Led Zeppelin, like they're amazing.

1:11:46 I think they're from Michigan. Oh wow, so they're close by too. Yeah, I think they're a Midwest band. I can't believe I'm drawing a blank on the name, but regardless. Like, do you know Led Zeppelin? Yeah. OK, so like Robert Plant sings like no other human I've ever heard and tell this guy like it's Led Zeppelin because that's who they are. And this other band is amazing. Like they make original music. They're pretty big. Like they're they worldwide tours, like they're pretty big band, but I don't see them ever taking the next step because it's like, oh, if I'm gonna listen to that, I'm gonna listen to Led Zeppelin. Right. It's almost that authenticity kind of thing because they're kind of lacking it because they're so similar. Yeah, and that is the hard part.

1:12:29 I see what you're saying actually, because those wood burners that I look up to, there's a couple of them and they have the exact same style. Like you could tell like what I was trying to do this other girl did and she succeeded. You know, she, she has a style just like that girl. I didn't, but I along the way somehow develop my own, you know, which if I could burn like that girl could, I'd be thrilled. But at the same time, I'm not complaining. It's the best of both worlds, you know, So it's probably. Back to what you said earlier, but we always want what we can't have in the combine that with the self I is always the most critical I. Yes, yes, that's 100% those. Two things together. You're always going to be wanting something.

1:13:10 Well, and it's just so funny. Yeah, because I feel like, you know, when I try to do detail like she can, the her name was like Hippie North. And then there's another girl that looks like actually maybe two other people now. I think they have the same idea I did. They're just like, I love her work. I want to be just like her. Like her stuff is beautiful. And, you know, so their work is very similar too. But yeah, mine's definitely not similar. But I did did learn things along the way where I'm like, don't be afraid to be bold with your darks. Like just be bold in general. And I think like, yeah, if you're duplicating somebody who's big that that much, you lose the authenticity and you don't have that surprise dynamic with it where people are looking at it being like, that's so cool and different. Absolutely, yeah.

1:13:50 That's the balancing act too, of taking from your inspirations but not being your inspirations, like this and this. And that's what ends up in here. They making you, you. It's interesting. So since since we set up the podcast, I've, I've obviously like looked at a lot of your stuff to make sure I was ready for the conversation. Social media has now been feeding me other wood burning artists with their stuff. So I've been seeing the other ones in. And before I found your stuff, it was something that wasn't even in my algorithm. But now, you know, social sees that I see yours a lot. So they think I want to see a bunch more. And there is that like I never, I never would have known before, like finding your stuff and having this conversation that there could be such stark contrast in the styles of wood burning because you think of like hot thing on wood.

1:14:41 OK, it's going to come to life and this is what that type of art is going to look like. But that's not true at all. They look different and there's different styles. They're. So different too. Yeah, there's some people who don't, they're not bold at all. They they burn light. It's funny because I like to go to this place. I think it's like a woodcraft. And there's this lady who works there and she's always like. And her, I will say her equipment is Immaculate. It's beautiful and it's clean and it's like, it probably lasts forever, but I was going in and buying new spoon tips like every two weeks and she's like, how do you go through so many tips? And I'm like, cuz I char the crap out of my work. And she's, she's a low temperature burner and she does beautiful work. So she, she must be great.

1:15:22 She burns while she's at work. So I have the opportunity to be able to see what she does. And it's very detailed, but it's very light and it's very subtle and it's, you know what I mean? Like I love her stuff, but it's definitely not me because I enjoy like I enjoy putting the tip on the wood and watching it turn into a flame. Like it's just there's something satisfying to me about it. So I told her I'm like, I just char the crap out of everything and have fun with it. And she's like, well, she gave me some really great advice actually, because I wasn't cleaning my the tip of my pen often enough. So I'm breaking it constantly. Like because all that, you know, the crease that or whatever sticks to it, it damages that pretty fast. Her stuff is like, I, I laugh because mine's like this charred mess and hers is like shiny and beautiful yet.

1:16:04 So I feel like there's different motivations too. Like some people want to preserve their equipment a little bit longer so they burn in a nice low heat and they just take their time and are really patient with it. I'm just like, I have this thing in my head and I need to get it on to the wood and I want to do it as fast as possible, but I want to have fun with it too. So yeah, I just at the at the expense of my equipment unfortunately, but I've learned how to preserve it over time now a little bit better than I did before. But they're making more. It's alright. Yeah that's exactly it. But different styles are just wild like on how different people are even with pyrography aspect. It's probably harder to you mentioned fine line work. It's probably harder to get a fine line with a lower temperature right? The hotter probably you can. Not really actually, no. I feel like if you, I mean, a lot of it's in worst speed too. So like if you have a low temperature and you're going really slowly versus you know, I mean, like I have some pretty bold lines in that one and you know, you have the high temperature and you have to go quick. Otherwise you're going to just char one spot and it's going to look funny or it's going to like, you know, it's going to turn into a flame if you hover too long. Sure.

1:17:06 So a lot of it's in just in the speed. So you can get some really fine lines at a low speed or sorry, low temperature, but you also have to have a low speed. OK, interesting. And from the videos, it probably looks like there's a lot to do with pressure too, right? Because I noticed like sometimes it seems like you press much harder than other times and, and what is that? Is that like? What does that do? So like if I'm darkening the background, I like to take wait, I like to take it and flatten it out and then just put pressure because it's you can't see it as much in here. But I had the like giant piece that I did. I wish I could have brought that. There is no way it would fit here, but. This the six foot one you were talking about? Or the 9 foot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like a bar top basically. But that one, I put a lot of pressure on that one because it, I kind of actually had an issue with the burning, but it also offered texture.

1:17:52 So like when you're putting like a lot of pressure on it and you have a high temperature, like it literally texturizes the wood. So you, I feel like there's so much, you know, we were talking about like Hobby Lobby art versus like real art when you could see the texture and things and like, you know, like how it was produced, kind of like you can actually touch it and feel it. You know, I was talking with another artist about this not too long ago and she was saying how people like to touch and feel the art when it has texture there because I was trying to like decide whether I should do a polyure thing, kind of finish or, you know, epoxy or just try to keep the texture. So that's usually why I try to press harder. Another time with the the big pine piece, I was starting off with that and then I trail off again. That one had a lot of like SAP actually. So it had a lot of that residue coming out. So I kind of pressed a little bit just to kind of get past that.

1:18:45 And then I got more of a burn that way. And that was something I didn't expect actually. So that was kind of unplanned, but I pressed pretty hard on that one to get it too. That's why I went through so many pens on that one. I was going to say, pine pitch is probably really tough on the tips, right? That was very, very tough. And that was kind of around that same time I kept coming into the store and buying more tips all the time. She's like, what are you doing? Just burning a big piece of pine, yeah. Yeah, and you know, it's funny because that was one of my first big pieces. Like I had one bigger piece that was an eagle and that was like one of my favorite pieces. That's when I graduated to the 9 foot slab. So I was still relatively new to wood burning when I started doing these really big pieces. And I was like, I guess I kind of thought that was the norm. Then I'm like, oh, I'm just going to go through these tips like crazy, you know?

1:19:30 But it's OK, It's OK yourself. So I just kept going and getting them and now I'm sitting here and I've been doing a lot of smaller pieces because of Christmas and I'm like floored because I've had the same pen last me the past 3-4 months. I don't know how I did it because I still burn hot. It's just I don't press as hard. I think I'm starting to learn some different ways to preserve my equipment a little more too So and still. Get the effect you're looking for. Yeah, like instead of pressing as hard, I just hover a little bit longer. So a little bit teaches me patience as well. Yeah, So what like when you what's the first one like when you when you got into it like heavily. So not like the the earlier like cheap one, but when you got the one, what was the first wood burning piece?

1:20:16 Do you remember being like, Dang, maybe I can do this? Do you remember what it was? Yeah, I'm trying to think it was birds. Yes, actually it was. And I look back on it, it's funny because my stepmom, I, I had like a gallery thing with my painting and I brought that just for just for shits and grins, you know, for fun. And my, my, everybody loved it. My stepmom bought it like like I think she knew that I was going to get into it or something. It's kind of funny. So she bought that one and she still has it. So when I go to my dad's to visit, I still see it hanging there and I'm like, that sucked so bad. Like I can't believe she liked it so much. That's why I like put the acrylic paint with and add the colour pop.

1:20:56 And I'm like, it's so dollar story. Like it just looks kind of cheap, you know? So I think that's what first inspired me to be like. But there was some. Fragments inside of that one that you saw the vision come to life. Yeah, that's where I'm like, I think this is fun to do. And then, you know, that's kind of the first one. Like this was an enjoyable piece to do. Like I had fun with it. And then as I kept going, there was one instance where I, I was also in a gallery too at the time. I'm still in a gallery, kind of, I had to bring more pieces, but I was in a gallery at the time and they, I brought a wood burning and that was, I'm trying to remember what kind of it was birds again, for some reason, I did 1 bird. It was 1 bird and some feathers.

1:21:38 And I'm like, I didn't turn on half bad. So I brought it and they said that yeah, I keep doing the wood burning. And then the one that I really was like, OK, yeah, this is my thing. I did a moose and it's sold instantly. Like I took it to the gallery. It's sold instantly. The gallery owner's like bring more, bring another moose like it. It went quick and then I just kept doing that and then it branched out into other animals. The first one really was a moose. I you'd almost think it was a horse, but it wasn't. That's like my specialty. My go to is always horses. Yeah, that's an interesting question. So you're a horse person. You have horses like this one or any of the horse pieces. You mentioned also earlier that you did a specific dog for someone like.

1:22:19 Are these like? Is this horse a specific horse or is this one that you created? There are horses that I just think look cool like in my head and I'm like going to see something that just floats or flies, you know, like sure, like sometimes you'll see a picture that kind of inspires you and it's just like, gosh, that's beautiful. Like it just kind of like, you know, it's then it sticks in your head for a while and then, yeah, kind of have an idea of what you want. So not usually specific. Like if people request it, yeah, I'll be specific, OK. But most of them are just like these fantasy ideas. OK. So when you did the dog for the person, did did you just like model that after a picture of said dog? Yeah, yeah, is. That harder then because it says it is a specific animal. It is a little bit like they have certain like my big challenge. I noticed especially over Christmas because I had a lot of them.

1:23:04 I'll usually ask them to send me like two or three different pictures and usually it works out fine, but you know, they may have a specific marking and the lighting that they wanted in like all of a sudden it's just not working out for some reason. So then you have to mess with it. So there's a little bit more tweaking and things like that that go along with it. The other part too, is like if somebody has a horse they want done, well, horses like they'll change color all year depending on their winter coats. So sometimes I'm sort of like, OK, so this horse looks completely different than this horse. Like, which one do they even want? You know, like I try to stick to the headshots because it's probably the most tried and true way. But but yeah, it can be difficult. I mean, you know, it's, I feel like every single animal is a little bit different depending on, you know, markings and specific kind of things. I, I always say this sounds really weird. I start out with the eyes first in a lot of cases because, yeah, if you don't get the eyes right, the rest of it's not going to work.

1:23:58 A person knows their pet by their eyes. Yeah, that has to be extremely difficult. I'm thinking about it one of my favorite like pieces of wall decor in our house. It's like it's not a one of one. It's a it's like a reproduction. I'm not exactly sure how they did it, but it's this blotches of different color and it's pretty big. It's like it's probably about the size of your horse here, but square. And it is it's a dog. And we had a chocolate lab that we lost like 3 or 4 years ago. Oh, I'm. Sorry. It happens. It's you get animals and they fall in love with them and then they go across the Rainbow Bridge and we have to live without them. So it is the awesome thing about this piece though is it strikes a bearing or a bears a striking resemblance to our dog that we had.

1:24:48 And it's just like this reproduction piece where they made thousands of them probably. Yeah. But it's these blotches of color that like looked strikingly like our dog. And I was like, OK, got to buy this. Absolutely. So like we, we went in there like planning to buy. Like we weren't it. We were going through like we were in a different town just going through stores as like killing time not looking for anything. End up taking this big ass dog thing home. Funny the way it works, like don't expect it and it just jumps at you. Absolutely. And the whole reason about it was because it looked like Emmet. So that that has to be tough, right? That I would think like of the art that you do and of the projects that you do like.

1:25:32 That's a tough gig to to make someone else's pet come to life. You know, it's sometimes it's really kind of humbling experience actually, because like you realize how much you don't know on certain things. Sure. So like, I've definitely learned it's, it's been good for skills in general because I've learned like I've learned how to, you know, fine tune proportions because you can have a black lab or chocolate lab, but like you said, that one looked like your dog. And you know, there might be certain things about a certain black lab that looks just like, you know what I mean? Like they might have a shorter snout or they might have. So you have to look at the things that make them them and, you know, be more observant about it versus I used to just be like, you know, it's a dog, it, it has a white spot on its face or something like that, you know, and just be able to know some of those characteristics.

1:26:19 But there's more that goes into it. And like, I definitely have realized that after a bunch of failures where I'm sitting here, like, you know, I could be like, I could just going to do a dog with a, you know, white spot on its face or black ear or something, and then realizing it looks nothing like that dog. It looks like a totally different dog with a black ear or white spot on his face. You know, So yeah, it's, it's really just, it's made me more observant as an artist to actually look at it and just be like, OK, so you know, it has some weird characteristics, like it's eyes are kind of set far apart or it has a shorter muzzle or it has, you know, there's just, or it's mouth is like set way back. Like some have the stretch of your mouth. You know what I'm talking about. Yeah, that's my Husky. That's why I say that.

1:27:02 Yeah, well, it's super cool. Sarah. I appreciate you coming on and sharing some of it. And since you were having me, thank you. Yeah, well, as soon as I saw the stuff, it just really caught my eye. We had to. I love talking with people with a like artistic outlets that come out in a plethora of different ways. We've had a bunch of musicians, we've had a bunch of film directors, we've had visual artists like you and it always, the conversation always intrigues me because I love shining a light on the thought and effort and passion behind people's art. And it's always through a different lens. The story is always new because it's always unique, like it's unique to you.

1:27:56 And I think it's so important just because I think like just art in general and allowing our creativity to come to life is just so important. Like my mission with the podcast is connecting people and I think long. I'm a firm believer that long form conversation does that. Absolutely. It definitely does a. 100% yeah. Like as soon as you can break down those barriers and get to the core of who people are, like it doesn't matter who the hell you voted for. It doesn't matter what you think about this political issue. It does. But at the same time, the core piece of it is that when people can see and hear the story of like why this even exists in the 1st place, I think it humanizes art and also art connects us and I just love telling the story of it.

1:28:49 It does. I I appreciate that you have that view on it. It's honestly, it's kind of such a neutral ground for people. I mean, unless of course, they're doing like political art or something, you know, like, yeah, it's like stuff like, you know, just generalized, like wildlife art. It's such a neutral ground for people. I think it's safe to say that most of us appreciate that kind of atmosphere. You know, I, I don't want to say everybody, but a lot of people do, you know? There's there's comfort in someone being willing to share themselves via their art, you know, like someone who writes a really personal song or someone who creates a really specific piece of art. Like that 10 year old Sarah who showed your grandma and I was like, look what I made. Yeah, think about that feeling.

1:29:33 And I it's just so important. And sometimes, you know, the the perception of the importance of art gets dwindled. Like we hear all the time about how funding for art in Wisconsin is much lower than throughout the rest of the country. It's right. And it's just important to continue to shine a light on. So I appreciate what you make and I appreciate you coming on to chat about it with us. I absolutely appreciate you having me on here too, and I love your podcast, so I'm excited to be a part of it, so thank you. Perfect. Thanks, Sarah. Thank you. I appreciate it very much, Brad.