Ryan Ebert - Art, Fish Decoys, Dark House Spearing, and Saving Public Lands - Ep#46

0:00 What's up friends, Welcome back to Rooted Wisconsin. Appreciate you for clicking another episode. Appreciate you for being you. Today's is with Ryan Ebert, artist based out of Fort Atkinson, WI down on the southern side. Really talented artist in a lot of different realms. What caught my eye originally was his fish decoys. He's a dark house spear and that got him into creating these awesome fish decoys that you have to check out. He creates apparel. He has all different kinds of stuff around his art and he transitioned into that position of entrepreneurship from he used to work as an art director for a print publication in the agriculture industry. Fun conversation about his career path, about his art. I found out he was on a podcast with the guys from Meat Eater, which was really cool.

0:48 I respect what they do a lot, so it was cool to hear that and talk about CWD in Wisconsin. Ryan is a a hunter and avid outdoorsman, as am I, so that commands a lot of our conversation and we go a lot of different directions. So excited to share it with you today. Check out his art. I'm just getting back from a family vacation up in the UP where I got a a day to sneak out and chase some brookies. If you check out the Instagram pictures, the sun hoodie I'm wearing that with the crappie Stringer is Ryan's art. He's created some cool apparel around it and just all around a really cool guy and fun conversation. So excited to share it with you. As always, shout out to our sponsors at Riverside Pizzeria of Green Bay. Appreciate you Ryan. I just had a number six with cheese out yesterday.

1:30 Extra pepperoncini's was delicious as always. So if you dig what we do, make sure you support them too. Excited to share it with you. Here it is, Ryan Ebert. We try to lift our neighbors. Where did the love go? Where did the talk end? We need to help to make this again. Like how did these start man? Like how did, how how did a fish decoy start?

2:13 Pretty much in college that I got connected, one of my good friends I made in college, he lives up and lived from Marinette, Wisconsin, kind of up on the Michigan border there. And he just told me about like, hey, me and my dad in the winter do this thing called dark house Spearing. And for Pike and I, you know, I didn't have any idea of what that was. Cuz it, you know, Pike Spearing isn't really a thing here in Wisconsin for the most part. You know, we have sturgeon spraying, but even that was a little bit foreign to me where I was at, you know, about two hours from Lake Winnebago. So I hadn't really done that either. So then one winter, man, must have been like O7 or O8 went up to the UP.

2:54 And it was a real hard winter. So there's a lot of snow. We couldn't get out to like one of the lakes that they wanted to try. So we just went on this little Marina just over the border there and went Spearing and we didn't even see a Pike that day. But I was just so cool, like seeing these decoys that my buddy's dad, who was a warden for Wisconsin at the time, that he was carving these decoys and we saw like trout and stuff. And we had this Otter that kept coming up under the ice and it was just so neat and I was really fascinated by it. But it was a couple years before I started making my own decoys because at that time I was in apartment and like, like, well, I'm not going to be making a carving mess in my, you know, little apartment. So when I finally got a house, I just started carving in the corner of my garage and, and I'd gotten one of the decoys for my buddy's dad and just was like looking at it and trying to figure out, you know, how this thing is made And like looking at photos online because there isn't really like wasn't any sort of tutorials at the time of like, here's how you make a fish decoy. So there's just a lot of trial and error and, and figuring it out and I was just obsessed with it. And you know, I've always been like a creative artistic type person.

4:00 So just naturally really gravitated towards the functional art that is a decoy and just thought that was so cool. Yeah, absolutely. We'll get into all of the art in a little bit. We'll take back the clock. But a couple questions about these. So like is this I've never been Spearing. I've never been Spearing any kind of fish, sturgeon or or other Is this what's actually down there? Cuz I I've seen the videos like you see the video of the the decoy down there. Is it actually wood like this? And that's. The Yep, yeah. I mean, there are a few guys that are doing like resin. There's a few guys that are starting to try like 3D printing, but traditionally they're all wood. Usually they're all cedar just 'cause that holds up the best to the temp changes and like, you know, going in and out of freezing water.

4:42 Cause certain types of woods, like basswood is really easy to carve, but if you put that in the water and if any water seeps into that, that thing's going to implode and crack. So cedar, you know, just holds up the best. And yeah, so you're carving it out of cedar and then waiting it to swim and usually using like copper or aluminum for the fins. So yeah, if you were to put these in the water, they'd do a big like, slow circle for Pike, you know, that swim and like things like that matter a little bit more for sturgeon. Guys are just basically hanging those down there. They're not swimming them a whole lot. And sturgeon decoys are generally more creative and colorful and larger because sturgeon are just big curious dinosaurs, whereas a Pike is an aggressive predator and they're actually coming in to like, hammer the decoy and try and eat it. So.

5:25 Yeah, well, then I'm assuming they'll do that right, like. Yeah, yeah, they'll, they'll hammer at it and bite at it. And yeah, I got some decoys that are like 10 years old now that are just beat the hell. And, you know, it's, it's a badge of honor. People are like, oh, you don't want a Pike to like, you know, smash this beautiful decoy. It's like, no, that means it works. It's awesome. It's like a stamp of approval on the decoy. Absolutely, Yeah. Yeah. So where, like where are the weights? And they and you said they swim. I have so many questions. So. So they'll like that actually swims in the water without you having to do anything. Yeah. So you'll put it on a jig line, like on a jig pole, and then once you jig it, yeah, it'll go on a forward motion and do a big slow circle. Some guys, you know, like him to swim a little bit faster. You can do funky things with the fins to make them kind of move differently.

6:12 Or they have ones that are called like wiggle decoys that don't have the side fins, and they'll act like a dying fish and kind of do like a belly flop. Every fish is a little different, especially if depending on what you're using for the fin material can like throw off how you're weighting it. Usually that lead cavity is from like the back of the gills to like your center of balance if that makes sense. Like if you put it on a pencil and that kinda gives you an idea and you're trying not to go too deep with it cuz it'll get top tippy if you go too deep. So you're keeping it all kinda in that lower third of the belly. And then it's just a lot of trial and error. Like sometimes it's literally one drop here I'll make it go right. Or you got to take a little bit out because it's, you know, getting tail heavy or something.

6:54 And yeah, it's a lot of tinkering. Super interesting and it's hand carved. I'm assuming like these are hand carved. Yeah, it's a mix of all different tools, a little bit power carving knives, like the ones with all the scales like that. It's one at a time with a wood burner, putting the scales in and yeah. Oh, so that's OK. So that's a wood burner that did the scales. Ye, yeah. And then just, yeah, one at a time going through there and that's a couple different like size scale tips and things to to get it right. And I'm assuming, do people buy these that aren't spearfishermen? Oh, buy them for art. Yeah, I would say at least like half of what I make probably just goes on shelves and like houses and like cabins. I actually have this map like AUS map in my wood carving shop and I put a pin every time I like ship a decoy to somewhere And there's pins all over the US and I mean states that for sure aren't getting ice.

7:43 Like these are not being used for anything other than as a collectible. And there is a huge collector's market for these and all mine and I do sign and like numbers and put the year on it. Yep. And there's, you know, like sporting good shows and like sporting auctions and things like that. There's a huge one in Illinois that just happened a few weeks ago, the Guyette and Dieter auction. In the last few years they've broken like some records for fish decoys. Like I think last year's hard 60 grand for an Oscar Peterson decoy. He's like a. $160,000. He from Michigan in like the 1940s, I want to say was when he was like carving. But yeah, so like stuff like that really, you know, there is a big market and not quite as big as like duck decoys, you know, that everybody thinks of a decoy.

8:29 But yeah, there is a market for fish decoys for sure. I mean, maybe it's 'cause I'm a fisherman and not a duck hunter so much, but I think the fish are way cooler. Yeah, myself. That yeah, I, I assumed as much because like immediately they grabbed my attention and I was like, damn, I would actually I like, I would order this just to like set on the shelf, you know, super cool. So where does art start for you, man? I read your bio. I saw the stuff online. Where does art start for you? It seems like it goes a lot of different angles for you. Yeah, I mean, really, when I was a little kid, like just always was super into drawing and like doing drawings for my friends for like a dollar, you know, things like that. And then when I got into like middle school, high school, I started messing around with the scroll saw and was making like yard art and garden markers and stuff. And I was selling those for again, a couple dollars, you know, just all this time making things. But that's kind of where like the creative entrepreneurial spirit kind of started.

9:23 And then didn't really quite know what I wanted to do, like coming out of school, but knew that I want to do something with art. I come from a farming background. So like, I briefly thought about doing something in agriculture and I just kind of stumbled into METC and Madison and graphic design. I'm like, well, that seems like something I can do and make money out. But I had no concept of of graphic design or what that was at the time, you know, from a super small town or Rio, less than 1000 people like, and old enough that we, you know, really didn't have like computers or anything like that in art class. Like I was the kid helping other, you know, helping the teacher with, you know, kids with their art projects and things like that.

10:05 So yeah, I went to school for graphic design and really learned a lot there and kind of started learning more about photography, which I was interested too at the time, you know, shot like friends, senior pictures and stuff like that in high school. And then I did an internship for a catalog company and kind of learned more about like studio work and layout. And then at My Portfolio show, I'm an editor for a publishing company in Fort. I was there and it's an egg publishing company. And I had listed that I had my American degree in FFA on my resume, which maybe seem like a weird thing to my instructors at the time, but he saw that and it's like, oh, this guy's, you know, we're looking for a designer. This guy's interested in agriculture.

10:45 And so then I got an interview and was hired as their art director right out of college and and then kind of went from there. That was your first gig? Yep, Yep. Yeah, there's a lot there, man. Because you know, that's what you try to do. And when you're searching for a job, you try to set yourself apart and you didn't know they were going to be there. Like you just had it on. Your wrist no, I mean they they for the portfolio show that was at the Manila terrace, you know, they send it out to all the employers kind of in the area and stuff and yes, I had no idea they were they were going to be there and. The only farm boy graphic designer. Is in the class probably. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah. That's all. So what kind of farm did you grow up on? What? What did you? Real small hog and poultry farm and then my parents both worked for a cheese factory in Portage too so. OK, man.

11:29 So that's so then that sounds like an interesting gig. And from what I remember, you were there for quite some time. How do the like, how do you continually like, there's not a lot of people that look at that through the lens of art, but you got to for a long time, right? That had to be super interesting. Yeah. So I was there for 11 years as our director working mainly on Hoard's Dairyman Magazine, which is a very historic publication that was founded by WD Hoard, who was like a governor of Wisconsin, kind of really brought the dairy industry to Wisconsin and was instrumental in a lot of lot of things we kind of take for granted now as far as that goes. And then also it was the art director for Hay and Forage Grower magazine. And then at the time they also owned 13 newspapers in southern Wisconsin.

12:15 So helped a little bit with that. And then they had their own print division and, and I also travelled throughout the US visiting farms, taking photos and video work and stuff for the magazine and kind of doing a little, little bit of everything as far as publishing went. Yeah, super cool. And that's a, that's a neat opportunity for someone who, I mean, your degrees, graphic design, photography was a passion, but then to immediately jump into a job where your photos are in magazines. So that's kind of a that's a big leap. Yeah, there's a lot of a lot of learning on the go and yeah, just developing my skills and, and kind of what I've always done. Yeah. I really, I kind of dive head 1st and everything and just learn as much as I can about whatever that subject is and creative work. And yeah, it was, yeah, it was definitely neat and met a lot of really cool people and saw a lot of cool farms and did I think pretty well with the magazine and won some nice accolades there.

13:12 And like I said, yeah, 11 years of starting out. Yeah, Ditto man. I jump in just head first, passionate about everything, just end up way too busy all the time right? Yeah. But it's so worth it, man. Like when you find something that lights your fire and keeps going, it's so, it's so engaging and it makes life worth living, you know? Yeah. And being from that farm background, and I could kind of like relate to a lot of people. And, you know, it wasn't from a dairy farm, but it like, I still understood, you know, what, what these people were going through as far as farm work and life goes. And wasn't just some, you know, like city kid or whatever that didn't understand I was coming there and kind of knew how to be respectful of different things. And when I'm taking the pictures and doing all that, Yeah. Yeah.

13:55 So then that was probably a crash course too. One of my passions is like journalistic storytelling. And that was probably a crash course and that for you, right? Because how involved were you in the story and then or stories and then what was it like collaborating with those type of creatives? Probably for the first time too, right? Yeah. So, yeah, I wasn't doing a lot like much of the writing side of it, but if I would go to a lot of it was just building up like stock photos for the magazine, like if we needed something on a specific article. But then if I went to a farm that hey, these people have a really, you know, I was taking a lot of notes while I was out on the road and like, hey, these people have a really cool story. We obviously have all these pictures for it now. And I kind of hand that off to the editor or a writer, a freelancer, and just kind of go from there and kind of work with them on like, hey, this is is worth telling in the magazine. Super cool man.

14:46 So how fun could that how like what else is more fun? You get to drive around to different farms, take pictures that you think are cool, that you get a creative lens and then somebody else tells the story of that. That's that's so cool. So it sounds like the timeline then you said the dark house thing happened with a buddy in college. So the decoys happened about the same time you were doing the. Decoys while you were working? Yeah. So I was starting to learn decoys and then like I said in in high school and then through college, I was kind of doing pictures for friends and kind of doing a little bit of design work on the side. So then all through my time as the art director, I still had this little bit of side business that was kind of going and kind of growing and just kind of, yeah, developing my skill set as far as everything I was doing at that time.

15:34 And then I don't know, it was probably eight years in or so I kind of realized like, Hey, this this side thing is, is growing and it's growing into something. And I was working, you know, obviously more than full time at the art director job and then starting to be more than full time on this side gig. And then I kind of realized like I need to just choose one or the other. So I think it's about year 9 or so. I realized like, yeah, I'm going to go on my own full time, but I also, I'm a very, like I said, I grew up on farm, didn't have a lot growing up, very frugal person and like kind of very conscious of those things. I'm like, I'm not going to just take this leap without like a safety net. So I started saving money, building that client base like I need if it's this fails, I, you know, I don't want to be in trouble as far as like I had bought a home with my wife and everything.

16:24 It's like I got to have that safety net. So then, yeah, the year 11, I'm like, all right, I got a good safety net. I got a good client base. I think, I think I can make this work, you know, as a thing. So then I made the leap in 2018 to being on my own full time. It's a huge jump, a huge jump when you're there's a certain amount of especially for I think similarly in a lot of aspects. I'm cheap. I'm I'm super cheap. Frugal's a cool word, but I'm super. Cheap too. Like I don't things are things, right? Like they don't like something like this or your decoys have a ton of like innate value. But like just in the grand scheme of life, like a lot of people just buy things to to have things.

17:06 And I'm not I'm not one to do that so much either. So I could feel you there, but it's such a big leap to like that's almost to go back to the word safety of and security of like this. This weekly check or bi weekly check comes in. You trade your time for it. You have your health insurance insurance is fiasco throughout the nation. So you have that and you know, and then you say, OK, something else has my passion. Did you have your child yet at the time or no? No, she's only a year and 1/2, so she's relatively new to the whole equation there. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, it was, it was as scary as, like, the best way to put it. Yeah.

17:50 Yeah. It was a very stable job. And that's a company that, you know, is a hard 40 years old that, you know, publishing in print is, you know, had its own troubles. But as far as stability goes, that was very stable. And they by no means were like kicking me out the door or anything. That was a hard percent my choice. But I felt I felt very stagnant as far as creative goes. You know, it was at that time I was putting out 26 issues of magazines a year. You know, it's just constantly that churn of grinding stuff out. And there wasn't a lot of time to be super creative within what I was doing. And you know, I toured a lot of farms and done all that and like I said, had some nice accolades as far as photo and design work can goes, all that.

18:34 And I just felt like I needed something more to like keep pushing me and really expand my creative interests. Yeah. And when that once that fire's lit, man, like it doesn't get extinguished just because it's not getting new wood put on it like it continually wants to go. Yeah, yeah, I kind of went through the same thing in a roundabout way. I so I used to work in broadcasting and then I like got burned out from that singular type of creativity. So I got a different kind of job that I loved and I still love. But at the same time, there came a point where I was like, I want to create something again. And that's how the podcast was born. Like that, that same flame that you just had to stoke back up a little bit. So I yeah, yeah.

19:19 You got to have those passion projects, like the decoys I know are what everybody finds that are interested in, but the amount of time it takes me to make one and then what I sell them for, it's like the hourly is not great. So it's just like, that's my passion project. Like I am selling them. But like if I had to rely on just that, I'd be in big trouble. You know, they're not the money maker. But yeah, you got to have that thing that is passionate and even if it's not like driving income or anything. Yeah, I assumed that had to be a case. So I want to talk about all the different angles of your Business Today. But I knew with the fish deque was like I looked on Etsy and they're what, like 2 to 500, something like that. Supposed to be the higher end, like a basic worker for me is like 100 bucks.

20:00 Yeah, OK. Yeah. And this is not two hours of work, no. Like, yeah, like that copy with all the scales and Tom Turkey spur that I found as the horn and all that. That's probably 12 to 14 hours of work at at the minimum. Yeah. And there's a lot of steps in those process too. It's not like I can sit down in the morning and have a finished decoy by the evening. It's like 2 weeks cuz there's like drying periods in between parts of the the process as far as paint and waiting and all that goes. So yeah. Someday he'll get the 500 grand it'll. Yeah, well, when I'm yeah, my my daughter when I'm lawn pass maybe, you know, and the guy at in Dieter auction, you know, that one will be 100 grand, Yeah, or something. Why do we do that? Why do we do that as people?

20:41 We wait till people die to like, give them accolades. I think it's especially artists, there's no more being made. And, and I've kind of learned this, I, I do a show in Minnesota that's all about spray and decoys. And it's been going on for like 25 years and I've been going the last 15 years now, I think. And there's been guys that have at that show that have passed or either or they just quit carving for whatever reason. And you kind of you realize in that moment that you need to buy that from that Carver. Like, you know, I make these connections with these guys and learn things from them. So I like, I try to get one from each car, like I'm a collector, definitely on decoys and try to get one from a guy because, yeah, it's like when they're gone, it's like, well, no more is being made and I can't talk to him. And, you know, tell them how awesome this, you know, piece of artwork I'm getting from them.

21:24 And yeah, it is weird that we just wait until, like, people are gone to place a value on on their art. Yeah. Yeah, so, so you actually you buy several from others too. Oh. Yeah, yeah. Much to my wife's dismay, I have a very big yeah fish decoy collection going. Yeah. It's either buying or trading. You know, I like to trade with guys too at that show and. Yeah. How big is very big? How many do you have? Oh, I don't know. I mean, it's, it's probably like 100 decoys or something. That's still a ton. I mean, there's like major collectors that I know have like semi load like legit semis full of fishy Kois that they're just sitting on and yeah, weird. I can I get the mystique of it, man, I get the appeal because it's there's so many layers to it.

22:09 Like of course they're awesome looking, but like I'm sure we'll get into some outdoors type talk today. Like if you're an outdoorsman, it's something that exhibits one of your passions in life in a really aesthetic way. They're functional. So like it's actually something you can say you use if if you do that type of thing. And they're not like the, the problem at least I run into with a lot of like outdoor type decor of any kind is they're hard to make fit in unless it's like a lodge vibe. So like it's at the cabin or something. I don't think your decoys are that like, I think, put it this way, I think my wife would let me put one of your decoys in my house somewhere and that's saying a lot 'cause I don't get to, I don't get to decorate. Yeah, yeah.

22:57 But you know what I mean? Like they're there's a lot of different things that make them appealing. Yeah, I think they speak to a lot of people as far as, yeah, if you have a passion for outdoors or you have a memory, like a lot of people buy them. They'll tell me like, oh, you know, this perch, I remember catching this jumbo perch with, like, my grandpa or something. And that's why they want it. Like it connects them to a certain memory or, or moment or whatever. And I think, yeah, they just speak to people in that way. Yeah, that's awesome, man. So like when you go through the process of making one do, what do you, what's your, what's your muse like? Do you look at something or do you just like start creating it from scratch? It's a little bit of both.

23:39 It depends if like, you know, these are kind of more realistic, but I do a lot of real folk arty ones and I'll just kind of like doodle out something that pops into my head or I'll see something and think of it and and then kind of start from there. But yeah, if it's a more realistic one, I'm just like Google image searching, like here's different crappies and like every fish has like great variations as far as like colour goes. So it's like, oh, I'm going to try and do one that's more like spawning colours and it's real dark or vibrant. And yeah, so just a lot of reference as far as that goes. OK, yeah, so Speaking of the things that aren't real, when did the antlers on the fish start? So a quick back story, one of the the coolest ones that I think from yours, I love. I like fishing for Browns in streams. So like Browns always catch my eye. And then you have the I think it's on a plaque, right With with two of them and one has the antlers. But you said that's, it's kind of a, that's one of your things. Yeah, real early on I started making antler decoys, like with real like deer antlers.

24:38 So those decoys are like 2 feet long because in order to get them to swim, you know, those antlers really throw stuff off as far as the swim goes. So you got to make them pretty big because there's already some weight there and mass. And I think I made like, I called it a buck sturgeon and it was like sturgeon body, but it was like furry, you know, I like etched in all these fur hairs and stuff like that and then had these antlers on it and just started from there. And then people really were into that and I just thought it was fun. So then I've done a lot of Pike and some musky ones. And then I've made decals now that are like my Pike elope and put those on shirts and stickers and yeah. And it's just kind of what I'm, I guess, known for amongst the carving community, yeah.

25:19 Is that a unique thing? Like does anybody else do it? Have you? Some guys have like dabbled in a little bit, but not quite to the extent and style that I do it, yeah. Yeah, super. And where did that idea come from? Yeah, I get weird ideas and I like had this list going always of like weird stuff that pops into my head or I'll see like on Instagram like a decoy or a fish. Like there's these like surge Rassi type fish that are very vibrant colour like nowhere here in the US and I think they're like in South Korea or whatever. And like stuff like that'll pop up. I'm answering like, oh, that'd make a really cool fish decoy. And it's, it's just kind of fun to like bring that then to here to the Midwest.

26:01 And it's like swimming this tropical fish that would never be found here here in the Midwest lake, you know, getting a Pike interested in or sturgeon. And yeah, it's just fun to make those different things. Yeah. And you can probably create a bit, right, because you were Speaking of the curiosity of sturgeon earlier. But like, in general, I think a lot of fish will swim up and look at something. Oh, yeah. And you don't. The the nice thing about it is you don't have to get him to bite. You just have to get him to be there so you can be a little bit more, whatever you want to call it creative obviously, but you can take a little bit more risks and say it's not going to, you know, if someone does use it for the functional purpose, it's not going to make it less possible that you get something or whatever.

26:43 Yeah, let's switch gears that direction a little bit though. It looks like you do a lot of outdoor stuff. What are some of your outdoor passions and favorite things to do outdoor outdoors? I mostly do deer hunting, obviously, and always have done that. And yeah, a little bit of fishing in the summer months, but I'm so busy with like that's my peak season as far as all my creative work goes that I don't get fishing as much as I'd like. But do some salmon fishing on Lake MI with some buddies and, and then, yeah, in the winter, I'm either sturgeon or Pike Spearing when I can. And those are the primary things. Used to do a lot more like squirrel and rabbit hunting. But where I'm at, the rabbit population's been pretty down for a while now, cuz I think just predators and not a lot of cover for them.

27:24 But we just logged our hunting property here this last year, so they got a lot of cover now. And I finally saw my rabbit, a rabbit for like the first time in three years. So I'm like, oh, maybe they'll make a comeback now. And yeah, coyotes, coyotes. And we got an owl that's kind of always around, and I think he does well. And I've seen some Bobcats in the last few years. You're in deer hunting. So I think there's a lot of stuff kind of keeping him knocked down. OK, do you do bow hunt too or? No, again, like fall is like my peak as far as my portrait photography work goes and things like that and still have a lot of agriculture clients. So obviously fall is a big time for most agriculture related things and. Oh, so you so you do egg clients doing what? Yeah, so I still, you know, I made all these great connections when I was in publishing and Infort is the National Dairy Shrine.

28:12 So I do a lot of stuff for them with their museum and then at World Dairy Expo, that's every October in Madison. And then just have a lot of clients that are still in the dairy industry on all sides of it, from manufacturing to processing and and just do a lot of like video design booth displays, really a little bit of everything. Oh. Content. So, yeah, isn't that fascinating, man? Like you, you think about it, that's that doesn't, you know, immediately equate in your mind, you think of an industry and you're like, well, you know, how much content could they really need? But then when you actually think about it, it's actually quite a bit. Yeah. And it and it constantly needs to be refreshed and. Yeah.

28:54 Well, unlike I said, yeah, dairy Shines got a museum and then there's all sorts of, you know, the World Dairy Expo or State Fair. I shoot, you know, a lot of dairy related things like that and you kind of don't realize how many of those events are until like COVID hits and then all those events go away for a year. And then then I kind of realized like, oh, I do a lot of events for these people and all those are all gone for, you know, a year, year and a half and. Yeah. So hold on, what Speaking of that, what year did you decide to quit your job and start your on go on your own? 2018 So then I I had a great, real great just feeling good about myself for about two years there. And then yeah, COVID hit. And again, luckily I'd saved up that safety net and because I definitely needed it.

29:39 And that time, you know, I didn't, I didn't realize all the events I did as far as either shooting, you know, video photo stuff for people or, or like trade show type market things that I did, you know, as far as selling the own, my own things I make. And then I do like portrait work too. And you know, so that kind of got thrown out of whack. And yeah, kind of rode, rode the storm there for a good year and a half. And and then in 2021 was IA buddy of mine mentioned about some screen printing business being for sale. And he's like, hey, me and this other guy want to do this And you know, you're the arts person. Would you be interested in doing this? So that's when I got started in screen printing.

30:19 And then that was kind of it's own like Rocky thing, both, you know, still supply chain issues of COVID. And then this other guy that was part of it, like was supposed to be the knowledgeable guy. I didn't realize he wasn't. So that was its own Rocky thing. But it I learned a new skill there of screen printing. I knew the art side of it, but I hadn't really done screen printing on my own. So I kind of learned it for about a good year and a half, two years there and then kind of brought that in under my own main business. And that was kind of where the whole screen printing aspect started. And and that's been awesome as far as doing my own like outdoor fishing related type things and apparel and people have really been into that. But then it's another thing I can offer to my clients. You know, when I designed a logo or a graphic form, it's like, Hey, I can now make the swag for, you know, your event or your bar or whatever, your staff and things like that go. Absolutely, yeah.

31:07 So for those that that don't know what, what, how do you define screen printing? How so? Like what is it? Yeah, so I'm doing like actual screen printing, not like sublimation or vinyl transfers type stuff. So I'm actually designing the graphics and then burning a graphic onto a coded screen. It's coded in emulsion so it's all light sensitive. So I burn that image onto the screen and then use what's called Placisol ink to then go through that. Basically what the stencil I make and then to to imprint on the shirts. Got it. Yep. Yeah, so and that was so you being the arts person coming in, you're saying you learned kind of that other side. Which I think is super important and all the front end of like how to properly make the artwork and set it up and, and and that's really a major part of kind of the peril process goes to know that front end thing.

31:55 Yeah. Yeah. And then I mean, that's that's grown. It's not only for clients, right? Like you, you make apparel that you sell like that. You had that super cool. And recently I sent you a message about it was like the badger with the cheese head on it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I made that like as a sticker 1st and then people are like, oh, when is this gonna be on shirts? I'm like, all right, well, I gotta change cuz yeah, everything's a little different. Like what you can do with a sticker as far as colors and the same as what you can do is like screen printing. So you gotta like deconstruct it and bring it. So I have a four color press. I need to get that down to four colors to be able to actually screen print it. So yeah, this the apparel has been a big thing too. When I'm doing like my fishing related trade shows, things like that, people really are into what I'm making. Like say I did the Pike lope on apparel and get a lot of requests for like the crappie 1 here is kind of a new one too, because I have a lot of crappy guys are like, hey, where's the crappie stuff at?

32:47 And I think what I do is kind of more tasteful, like everyday, kind of like you can wear anywhere where there's a lot of fishing apparel kind of seems to be a little bit over the top in my opinion. Like the NASCAR style, like everything's got to have a graphic all over and it's super weird colors and just like, well, that's not something you're going to like wear out to dinner with your wife or whatever. And so I think there is a a big market for what I do and it's really keeps growing a lot. And I do like bigger like the Wisconsin Fishing Expo and the Wisconsin Fish Ice Fishing Expo or those are big events. And especially for a real small business like me to do like these major trade shows there, it's a huge investment of time and money. But there's been just an awesome reception to to what I'm bringing to him.

33:31 Yeah, I completely agree. There's certainly space in that. A few episodes ago we had my buddy Rex from Door County and he he's same similar lines like his his brand's called Door Born and it's like a lot of outdoor apparel for a long time was like if it was like a way larger than life largemouth bass, like jumping out of water with a boat and like such a busy thing. It's like, I don't know, the styles change and evolve since then too, but I get what you mean. There's a there's a space for that. Similarly to I don't know this conversation or why we do the podcast. I, I talk about it all the time, but it's like, sure, that's awesome to joke about brats and cheese and stuff about Wisconsin or like whatever.

34:18 But there's like legit cool stuff too. And I mean, you probably actually, let's talk about that a little little bit because you probably get that same vibe through the lens of arts in our state. Like sometimes it seems like arts are a little bit covert in Wisconsin. Do you feel that way? I like how so. I don't know, like for anything. So one of my like yourself, I have a lot of creatives on the show. It's one of my favorite things to talk about. And like, I don't think we get the credit or I shouldn't say we, I don't think artists in Wisconsin get the credit they do because sometimes it's just because they're from Wisconsin. It's like, no, people make cool stuff here too, you know what I mean?

35:04 Yeah, I think arts in general, sometimes some people, it's hard for them to put a value or see the value on it until they're like, you know, if they're starting a business and they get down the road, it's like, oh, I don't have a proper logo or a website or like a real professional polished look. And it's like, why are people struggling to relate to my brand and things like that? Yeah, they're hard to put a value on it. And I don't get as much anymore. I think younger artists get it more so like the whole like trade for exposure type thing. It's like, well, that's tough, man. Like it's not going to pay my bills. And especially like me, I'm like, I'm 20 years into this. Like I, you know, I luckily have a very good client base that I have almost no turnover on. You know, I'm, I'm planning busy.

35:44 I don't need to do like a trade for exposure type thing. But so I think sometimes people, yeah, again, putting a value on that, you know, all that learning that somebody's had to do to learn whatever craft or artwork they're doing. Yeah, it's difficult sometimes. Yeah, man. Yeah, I don't know, it's I, I hope it continues to grow. I've been watching actually another previous guest. There's like a, a lot of talk in Wisconsin about film credits. Have you heard about any of that? So like there's a lot of like tax incentives and and fiscal incentives in other states. And one of our previous guests, Nathan, is, is like doing the, the roadshow here through like the legislators or whatever, like all the people that make the decisions about that stuff and saying how like that can boost areas economically. And I've seen Wisconsin make a lot of progress in that area for quite some time with like cool art festivals and, and just things in local communities that shine a light on it. And maybe it was something that when I was younger, it just wasn't what my eye was looking for. Maybe it it existed and I'd never saw it, but I think it's awesome to see now.

36:50 It seems like it's a growing space. I guess I would call, I would say in the Midwest. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I think the Arcs in general in some ways are are getting improving like the makers market type stuff that you see kind of everywhere now like wasn't really a thing to the extent it is now like 10 years ago. So it's nice that all these different creatives are having venues to get their their stuff out there. Absolutely. Yeah. People probably tried to used to make you better or used to try to make bad trades for your fish decoys, right. Like, oh, that's super cool. Here's a, you know, here's an old Saint Croix rod that's 10 years old. Yeah, Yeah. OK. So towards the end of COVID added the screen printing. How how does that work?

37:34 How does that work integrating as a So let me rephrase as an entrepreneur, how do you decide where to put your intention and what are what you're think you're going to get return on investment from like in that scenario? How do you say, OK, this is a part I want to integrate into my business because you were just saying you've got, you know, a nice baseline, things are good. How do you decide when something should be added? I mean, for me it's about like being just that full service. Like I said, I was designing like the logos and graphics on the front end and then I was having to refer them to like a screenshot or whatever to like actually get their things made. So it's like, well, I can now make these things for them. And my first like first few fishing designs, I had a buddy that had a screen printing shop at the time. So I was sending him that stuff and it's like, what? Be nice to bring this in house and be able to do it myself. And that adds its own level of trouble there. You know, there's only so many hours in a day and it's like, well, now I'm doing all these different things. So there's just, yeah, managing that workload now of like, all right, I need to dedicate today to screen printing because tomorrow I got, you know, a photo shoot or whatever. So within the business, it's just seeing like, yeah, I'm, I'm outsourcing this thing so now I can learn this and bring it in house and it just makes sense that way. Got it.

38:52 Yeah, pretty common growth strategy. That's good. So then with the apparel, are you trying to like going back to branding? You were talking about branding earlier. Are you trying to make a brand or is it the like when you create a cool design, you're like, oh OK, this makes sense to put on a shirt because people will buy it. Yeah, yeah, it's it makes sense. Or like I said, I'll do these fishing Expos and I'll get crappy guys or trout guys like, hey, you need more crappy stuff or whatever. And it's like, all right, you know, I get kind of make a mental note, like, all right, I got enough requests for this one, you know, type of thing. Like I'm going to do something related to that now and just kind of keep expanding upon it. And yeah, as far as like the brand goes, everything's I'm making everything like there is no middle man.

39:34 So it's just all Ryan Ebert, you know, stuff. So I don't have like, you know, like you said, your other guys, you know, is Dorborne or whatever. Like for me, it's all just Ryan Ebert. Like it's fish decoy. It's Ryan Ebert fish decoy, it's Ryan Ebert pale, all that. And I don't get super heavy as far as like my name or branding goes on my apparel. Like I just have my little logo, like real small on the back. And yeah, it's never on like the front, you know, big and loud and like, like I said, some graphic. Fishing apparel, like the logos are all over the place. But yeah, for me, it's more like just cool art. Yeah, that's just what I want to promote. Absolutely. Yeah. Like the fishing jerseys, those get super loud sometimes. The fishing jerseys, that's something somehow I always get sucked down that rabbit hole on social media like of someone like a professional fisherman wearing their fishing jersey in like a bass tournament or something, just like outlandish, so loud and it's like I always get sucked in.

40:27 It's it's a super entertaining, but it's just like you said, it's a different vibe. It's not like everyday wear, but still I. Yeah, I and I get why they got to do that. You know, a lot of it's like sponsors and stuff. But for me that's not just just not my style. And like I said, I want to be able to wear this anywhere and not feel out of place or whatever. And again, cool art is my focus. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, man. So now that you're what it would be, you know, soon it'll be 10 years, time flies. Soon it'll be 10 years as an entrepreneur. When you reflect back on the decision what, what are your thoughts on choosing to go on your own and then do it?

41:15 Yeah, I, I tell my wife like I couldn't imagine doing anything else or like working for somebody else. You know, I've had inquiries about different things and it's just like, Nah, I got to keep doing my own thing and, and set my own path and doing my own creative work. And yeah, I just couldn't, you couldn't imagine doing anything else. It's not, it's not easy. It's a lot of hours and a lot of nights and weekends and things like that, especially that's more trouble, not trouble, difficult to manage those hours, you know, the kid and all that. And, you know, financially, like it would have made more sense to say in the private sector and again, having that steady paycheck because you don't always know where a paycheck's going to come from or like you got money floating out there and you're just got to buy equipment or inventory, you know, or apparel, things like that. So there's a lot of stress there. But I just, that's, it's my life. I mean, that's what I do.

42:10 And I couldn't imagine doing anything else. Yeah, and I think that's how a lot of people end up. I had a really fun conversation with a friend the other day about, I think a lot of people that like everybody has that idea, you know, that you talk and then you get in conversation and they're like, I thought about doing this at one time. So many people have that idea and a large, large percentage of those things never come to life. So our conversation was kind of revolved around like taking the deciding to take the step you did and even being, you know, a financially conservative person, you planned and still did it. Well, of course, there's the other side of the spectrum, which I think is the minority of people who will do it a little bit more on a whim and then fail. And then that's what makes this, that's what makes it scary, you know, But those barriers, those things that hold people back from passions, I think it's fascinating to talk about because there, one, there's really valid arguments on both sides.

43:14 And two, those like those thoughts that you're saying like, well, what if something bad happens? Like what if this, that's all super real stuff, like bad things can happen. We didn't know there was going to be a worldwide pandemic. And luckily you, you, you know, made it through it, but a lot of businesses didn't. And I just think that's a fascinating conversation about like how to diagnose those barriers and then circumvent them to chase your passions, because there's a lot of folks that have the idea that don't. Yeah, I think everybody's got their own process as far as like a business goes. And yeah, for me, growing up again, without much and being very frugal and, and very conscious of not spending money like, so I've had very slow, slow growth, you know, as far as the business goes, like adding something here and there.

44:02 And, and, you know, there's certainly different methods and people like, yeah, dive head first in and spend a lot of money on, you know, growth and things like that. And maybe they get big, but yeah, sometimes you fall flat on your face. And for me, like, yeah, I couldn't. Falling on my face wasn't an option, you know, with the family and and the home and things like that. So I just, yeah, slow and steady growth has been my route. Yeah, absolutely. What about what about like the the farm thinking, does that type of work still speak to you at all? Like do you ever want to have some animals around the house or anything when you think back? It'd be nice to get out to the country at some point. Both me and my wife, you know, grew up out in the country obviously, and, and we're in kind of downtown Fort, which Fort isn't that big of a town, so it's it's nice. We're only like 1 house removed from woods, so we get, you know, all sorts of critters coming through our lawn and that's and that's really nice.

44:57 So yeah, getting out to the country at some point would be nice. And I think Kevin, my kid have, you know, a few animals or whatever. I think that's always a good experience to learn, like to care for something and see it grow and kind of learn that aspect and not be super disconnected from like, hey, here's where your food come from. I think that's really important. And yeah, I still get on a ton of farms, as you know, for different clients. So it's it's good to have those connections. That's something we talk about on podcasts a lot, the proximity to food, something I'm Uber passionate about there and food that comes from animals, vegetables, all kinds of food is just like, you know, it's not you just go to the grocery store and it's there. You know, there's a whole process behind that man. That's we could go down that rabbit hole, but it's been it's been on the podcast a lot.

45:48 It was fun last year, like I had a good deer, deer hunting and for the first time showing my kid like, you know, this is what happens. We still talk about it and I like that stuff is super valuable and lost in some places I think. Yeah, my wife jokes that that was our wedding dowry was her. They have her family has like a hard and 40 acres and mostly like pine trees and stuff farms. So it's been very good hunting land since we've, you know, been married and all that. So, yeah, it's been it's been fun deer hunting out there and yeah, just seeing all the different critters. Like I said, I've been seeing more Bobcats and things walk by and it's kind of neat to just sit out there and experience all that. What part of the state is that in? Columbia County, so just like an hour north of Fort, Yeah.

46:28 Nice CWD. Yeah, luckily we haven't had. I get all my dear tested and I haven't had anything pop up yet but I've seen a couple on trail cams the last couple years that make me a little nervous that something's going on but haven't had anything yet. It's amazing. Like of course it's not just going to go away, but like I feel like I remember and I, I was probably, it's probably close to when I started deer hunting, maybe a little bit afterwards, like when CWD became a thing. And it's just weird to me that the conversation is still virtually the same as with. Yeah, you feel the same. Yeah, yeah. Like we're just spending our tires on as far as any sort of progress or research goes there. And I think from my farming background, and I think I take it a little more seriously than some people because I've seen, you know, different viruses and things.

47:16 I can make the jump from an animal to a person and, you know, farms get quarantined because something happens. It's like, well, it's very, it hasn't made the jump yet, sure. But like it's very realistic that it could, something could happen. And I want to be conscious of that, especially now having a kid. It's like, well, even if it's unlikely that, you know, she's going to eat something and it'll happen, I still want to get it tested. And no, like this. This meat is safe for her. Yeah. Absolutely, yeah. Especially being neurological, it's like, I don't know, there's a, there's a lot of layers to that onion and OK, but I, I got squirreled by. That yeah, we could get on a weird tent. There, yeah, and. Go forever. Yeah. So Columbia County, trying to think, I don't know that I've spent a ton of time like out of door places there. You said it's a heavy pine, your land is. Yeah, OK, nice, good.

48:07 Like what's the like good quality deer, good quality bucks or? Yeah, I've gotten some very, very nice ones over the years. And we're kind of it's an older property. So they're on one side was an old gravel pit and then there's rural tracks, there's the pipeline that comes through and then a power line. So like all these, it's kind of unsightly in the moment, but it makes these natural funnels for the animals like they have to come through the property a certain way. Nice. And so I've kind of learned those to your patterns well and it's allowed me to get some some pretty nice animals and. It looks like it on Instagram access points too. That makes, I think a lot of times, I mean that for I like bow hunting a lot and access is really important because you want to try to like if I know there's a good deer there within like 300 yards, like access is a little fishy. You got to get to it the right way. You have to, you know, not be too loud. Wind's got to be right.

49:02 And a lot of times that stuff on property makes it a little bit easier to do. And I'm, I'm a very, my wife would agree with this, like very stubborn person too. So I'll sit there like until I, you know, freeze and whatever the conditions are and like sit there until like something walks across and I get it. And so, yeah, some of my nicest deer, I've been sitting there just freezing to death and it's like the day after Thanksgiving or something. And also, no, there's that nice buck. I've been finally waiting for my first surgeon. Like that was a super long season. It was like day 14 of the season and I'd been going up driving like the two hour drive every morning to go up and go sit at least for that day. And, yeah, Day 14, I finally got one that had come through and I'd kind of given up hope.

49:44 I was going to go up to the Marinette and go, I'll do this veterans outing, take some guys out Spearing, Pike Spearing. And then, yeah, I had one finally come through and that was when I got my first surgeon. So yeah, I just, I think it helps to be stubborn when it comes to the outdoors. And, you know, you'll finally got to have something come through eventually. Yeah. Stubbornly patient. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, let's talk about that a little bit. Just because it's something that I don't do. I like sturgeon Spearing. Is northern Spearing? Is that illegal in Wisconsin? Lake Superior waters, you can go for Pike, but really like if you're into it, you're going to go to Minnesota or Michigan. Pretty much every ice belt state other than Wisconsin has like a statewide season for it. And I'm part of a group that we've been trying to get it here in Wisconsin for a number of years. We got really close like 2 years ago. We did the whole DNR process of submitting a citizen resolution. And then that went through all the like warm water committee and things like that and got it on the April spring DNR hearings.

50:43 And then it was like an even split of yes, no. And then for some reason they have a no opinion option. So it was like 33 percent, 33% and 33%. There's a no opinion. Yes. So it was an even split there. And then I have some connections and guys that I know that are in support of Pike Spearing, Dark House Spearing in the conservation Congress, which is like each county has an elected official for that. So then we overwhelmingly passed in that. And then at that point, it was supposed to go to our natural resources board, which is like the final step of the process of like getting a new season or law as far as outdoor goes.

51:23 And then it never got submitted to them. So then I talked to the DNR and finally got the response from them was they're worried about user conflict, which is Muskies. Muskie guys are super not in support of it for the most part because they're worried about that a muskie might accidentally get taken. Which if you look at other states that have Pike and muskie and Pike Spearing like it's just not, not a problem. Or there's ways around it. Yeah, they they look different in the water. They act differently in the water. And there's ways around it too. Like there's plenty of lakes that don't have muskies in and just a little hammer handle Pike. Like there's ways to circumvent that. But so that continues to be our opposition to it here in Wisconsin.

52:05 And so, yeah, usually when I'm going, I'm going up to Upper Michigan or I go over to Minnesota with some other decoy carvers and go Spearing over there. OK, yeah, well, we got to dig into this a little bit because there's a lot of stuff I want to ask about here. This one which, which of those decision maker groups had a had a like a no decision. They could just choose not to choose. That's like a it's like a state board, a state authority, or is it within the Don? The public does their spring hearing voting. Yeah, it was yes, no or no opinion are your options on all the. Questions. The public, Yeah. So the public can vote. No opinion. That I understand a little more. Yeah, I thought. This is so weird that it's like no there is an option for no opinion and and in my in my opinion, a no opinion means you're fine with it.

52:50 Like you don't really care like if there's a season. So I kind of weight that more in the yes category, but I'm a little bit biased there, but. Yeah, maybe 'cause I can at least I can see that. I can see somebody so far removed from it that like, you don't care one way or the other. But you could see how that could get a little squirrely if like 'cause so much of life is about lobbying and storytelling, that like then it turns into can you convince the people who don't care? So I kind of get that. I thought it was like a board of decision makers of like state DNR or something like got a no opinion on. Absentee or whatever, Yeah. Yeah, pay me and then tell me that I can be right, wrong or just not even care.

53:31 Yeah, but the Muskie thing is interesting. So I'm assuming it sounds, and I think you said this in there, overwhelmingly the the average sportsman of Wisconsin is OK with it or even advocates for it. Yeah, like I said, it was like 1/5, well even split across for the public voting went and then yeah, we went to the conservation Congress. We overwhelmingly were voted yes there. And yeah, and I get what their concerns are, but also that sort of thing frustrates me so much. And outdoors, like our own infighting amongst outdoorsmen, like I'm so into this, you know, one species that I feel like any other thing might, you know, deter from that.

54:13 And really, it's not like we're all in this together. We're all conservationists. We all care about, you know, the things we're after. And, you know, at the end of the day, we're all following those harvest regulations for whatever we're after. And like, we're not going to break the laws regardless of method to take. So it it's very frustrating to have those conversations sometimes. And it's like we have enough outside groups that don't want certain aspects of hunting or trapping or fishing. We don't need to fight amongst ourselves and and keep another user group down just because we worried about, you know, whatever species we're after. I completely agree. Completely agree 100%. The often times the arguments are from one, they a lot of times they hold no weight. And another, another angle is that a lot of times they're come from this place of like personal protection, like this is my resource and that could hurt.

55:10 Was it like the musky argument? I mean, the person's thinking like, oh, this fish is more important than another fish or your type of, you know, fun or outdoors recreation. So this should take precedence. I completely agree. That happens in the outdoor industry so much. One thing I'll say is that from what I know of the Conservation Congress, I think they do a good job of representing the sportsman holistically, from what I've seen and heard, given that's not that expansive. So I'm not an expert, but unsurprisingly, I think they do. You know, they do a good job of which they should. It's kind of their gig. But to represent the voice of the sportsman in general, Yeah.

55:51 So it sounds like that's, have you seen any of this stuff about the public lands being sold in Utah and stuff? Yeah. So I'm part of BHA and I did the BHA rendezvous in Minneapolis last year with all my decoys and stuff like that, OK. So I'm very connected to a lot of those guys and yeah, see what's going on and. What a nightmare, dude. Yeah, what a nightmare. Unbelievable that it's even. Being considered. Yeah, yeah. And like, I don't know, and I love that I'm seeing like, humongous names in the outdoor industry jump on 'cause it's easy for them to turn a blind eye. But like, big, big names are like just making very candid social media posts about how how terrible this would be to happen.

56:33 And it would just set such a nightmare precedent, man. And I think I don't know where that stands today. I didn't. Yeah, I'm not. Sure, where it's at right now. I know they're still, yeah, I think fighting over it. And yeah, as far as big name goes, yeah, I've seen like all the meat eater guy, like I got connected to them actually through my decoys and they've been nice to like share some of our Pike Experian efforts here and talk about some of my work and did like their fishing podcast. But yeah, I've seen like Ryan Callahan. Yeah, talking about that. And as far as Montana goes, I know they've sold a bunch of acres and the, and the name of like low income housing or whatever, but then he's like, well, really, they sold, I might be getting these numbers wrong, but it was like 18,000 acres and they've only developed, I think it was like 40 acres.

57:24 And it's all second homes for people. It's not going actually towards like low income housing. So yeah, they try to justify it with some of these things and it's like, no, that ends up not being what it's actually used for. And now that public land is just, it's gone forever. And you know you can't get it back once once it's gone. That's the thing, man. That's the thing. Once it's gone, it's gone. And I think I'm not, I'm not nearly as well versed about like what public lands are like globally, but I think we're kind of a Unicorn in a sense that we have more than most other places. And I think it stems back to like Teddy Roosevelt days and stuff. You hear that? You hear that. But like, that's why I don't get the whole like, why it's even considered. It's like, OK, sure, once this is or sure, like there's money here.

58:12 And yeah, you can get in the valid argument of like housing, it is an issue. But there's a million other ways to address that issue other than, you know, go to the furthest extreme, build a, build a house that looks at Mount Rushmore. Like there's way better ways that that can happen. So what a what a nightmare. I can't remember how we got on that topic right now, but that's something that's been on my mind a lot lately. I've been seeing a lot of those videos. I did see the Callahan thing. Did you say you were on their podcast? The Bent Pod was their fishing podcast for a number of years. Yeah, I did that with Joe Cermelli and Hayden Samic. Yeah. OK, cool. I'm just talking about decoys. And then, yeah, some of them got found my work like pretty much probably like you did through Instagram or whatever and have some of my decoys and they've been in like weirdly in a couple of their videos and stuff they've done and.

59:01 Yeah, yeah. I thought the you know what, they have a ton of cool little offshoots. The one I thought was cool I I think they called it back 40. They did that 40 acres in Michigan where they turned it. Up in the deer hunting property, Yeah, yeah. Talk about resonating with like your everyday hunter. Like, that's what you can do. You buy 40 acres. You try to, you know, turn it into whatever you can. But he faced the same challenges that most of us do, you know, like neighbors are shooting deer, neighbor that you wouldn't shoot or whatever and making noise, whatever, blah, blah, blah. You only have 40 acres. I thought that was a really cool series. But they've done it, man. I can only aspire to do some of the positive change that they've done in in any industry, but they're specifically in the outdoor industry.

59:44 Like, it's awesome that they're to the point where Callahan does make a, an Instagram video that hopefully sways some opinions and says, don't sell this land. Cause like, I know, well, look at Wisconsin. That's an ever, ever going conversation between stakeholders on both sides of like access for trout streams and stuff like that, where, you know, our DNR has done a great job of getting a lot of easement access to places. And then you'll be in the stream and like a landowner will just be a complete mean person to you about it. And it's like, OK, well, what's your thing that then? You don't want to be infringed on, you know what I mean? And because the more those go away, the more we lose them. Yeah, yeah.

1:00:29 I think it sends back to the yeah, that infighting and trying to take ownership of species or land and things like that, and yeah, just yeah, it doesn't make sense to fight amongst ourselves and in those scenarios and 100. Percent, yeah. Tell me more about the Spearing thing, though. I want to learn about it. So like you do, you do Sturgeon and. Pike. Yep, Yep. I mean, Winnebago sturgeon Spearing is storied, but like, what? What's what's first? What's your draw to it? What brought you into it other than having your friends do it? Yeah, I I love the winter time and it kind of bums me out. We don't have the winters we used to, but right. I, I just, I, I'm one of those people that really doesn't like summer. You know, I hate bugs, hate being hot. So I love winter and I love like that quiet solitude of winter and everything's very peaceful and, and just being outdoors and, and then yeah, for me, Experian, it's the functional art of it.

1:01:24 Not only the decoys, but then the Spears themselves are, are all handmade, You know, they're not being like mass produced by some big company. It's some dude, you know, welding and, you know, blacksmithing these things. So I think those aspects are really cool. So yeah, I just, and it's neat to have something that I made that brings in this this fish and, and seeing all that. And so, yeah, going up to Michigan in the winter months and, and hanging with my friends on the ice and yeah, I had some really cool experiences. And we'll go on a little tangent. Probably my favorite experience story as far as Pike goes, outside of my own personal best getting a 40 incher. I used to go do winter camping on this one kind of remote lake in the UP.

1:02:11 So the year I left my job, 2018, we were going to go that winter. We had like good ice. It was like mid-december. I went up on a Thursday evening, stayed with my one buddy and Marinette had a few too many beers so I was dragging a little bit in the morning, but I hit the ice. I was by myself like right before dawn. They were going to meet me after they got done work and we were going to camp. This lake, it's like 400 acres. It's got 2 little islands on it. You got to drive like a mile and a half back on this logging Rd. So it's it's pretty remote and there's like 4 little cabins on it. But they're clearly just summer, summer cabins. I've never seen somebody out there in the winter. So I go back and it's very early ice and this lake has a lot of natural spring. So I always try to go this one way out and that way wasn't snow covered at all.

1:02:56 Like we got in dusting the snow like 2 nights before. And I'm like, I think that's really new ice. And I didn't feel good going that way. So I went to the right and you know, sputting my whole way out. Get out to where I wanted to go next to this one island, probably about a mile out, walk out and I'm out there. I'm like trying to get set up, figuring out where I'm going to go. And I look across the lake and I see this dark black object walking and I'm like, what the heck is that? And at first I thought it was a wolf because it was like taking these weird, like long strides. And I thought I saw a tail and it was just far enough away. And then I realized I'm like, oh, it's a black bear out on the ice. And I'm like, what the heck is this thing doing out there? And you know, as a photographer, I always got some sort of camera on me.

1:03:40 So I had a very nice point and shoot and I like set it up and I'm taking some pictures and little video. And I call my one buddy that I'd stayed with and he works at a winery up in Pesh to go. And I'm like, hey, there's a black bear on the ice. And he didn't actually answer. So I just left this voicemail, which he saved 'cause he thinks it's so funny, 'cause of the tone of my voice. And like just you can tell I'm really like amped and like don't know what's going on. And after I realized this thing's walking towards me and I'm like, what is going on? So I start yelling at it and I'm cleaning my spear and auger and stuff, just trying to make a bunch of noise and he keeps walking at me. Like I said, it's early ice. So I'm like I don't know which way is safe to get off. The way he's walking is the exact way I took out and behind me is just marshland. I'm like, I'm sure that's not like locked up in any way for me to get out of here.

1:04:27 And so I'm just like, got to stand my ground and keep yelling at him. He gets within about 10 yards of me and he finally like stops and he's looking at me and I'm just like ready to fight this bear. And he just stops and he finally goes up onto the island. Then I'm going to camp and I'm like, all right, I'm not camping and I'm not staying here. So I just throw all my stuff back on my sled and make record time getting out of there. And oh, to backtrack just a tiny bit, my 1 warden buddy, I called him to thinking like, hey, maybe he's got some good advice for me to like, get this bear to stop beyond just yelling at it. And he just tells me the same things I'm already doing. And then he ends with, hey, if you die, can I get all your decoys? And I can hear my other body in the background just laughing his head off. I'm like, you're not at all helpful here. So yeah, I finally get out of there, book it out, keep looking over my shoulder, and I can see this bear just wandering on the island.

1:05:21 So I stayed through the weekend and we went to some other lakes the next day. And then we came back two days later and with my warden buddy always retired at the time now. And we walk out and this thing is just sleeping basically where I had left it out on the ice, like on the edge of this island. So we took some pictures with it and stuff and we let the Michigan DNR know like, hey, there's this bear that's acting kind of weird. And his theory was it was probably like a 2 1/2 year old bear, like maybe it's first winter out on its own and it was kind of like a little bit warmer weekend. So he's like probably just woke up from hibernating and was just really confused and groggy and, and wandering around. And yeah, I was just, well, I don't care how young or whatever is going on.

1:06:01 Like I did not want to wrestle with it. So that actually inspired my very first shirt design. I did. It was like me holding a spear like to this bear or whatever. And yeah, it's just fun, unique story that you wouldn't get otherwise if you're just sitting in your house in the middle of the winter. But. That's the reason to go outside, yeah. And that's so classic, Yeah. Crazy, though. So first ice, you were in the UV. Was it like November and like. It's mid mid-december, so Michigan, their season runs from December 1st to March 15th. OK, got it. For Pike Spearing, yeah. Yeah, talk about weird man. And like, what did it do? You said it got within 10 years.

1:06:41 Did it pay you any mind or did it just walk by and? It definitely like acknowledged me that I was there and, you know, I don't like I said I was going to go camping, so I had some food in the cooler and I'm like, I don't know if it was maybe winning that or something. And yeah, I I definitely yelled every curse word I could think of at it and just thought for sure I was going to have to wrestle with this bear. And yeah. At least at that time of year. If it was groggy, maybe you had a shot. Who? Knows yeah I was groggy too like I said I had a few made two beverages the night before and yeah when we saw it like 2 days later I'm like I definitely didn't you know even a young bear like that thing's still got some good claws and as far as weight goes I'm like I'm sure it's pretty close to what I weigh and and. You said it was two days later when you went back and was still just sleeping. There, Yeah yeah, very much alive. So now I, I revamped, yeah, I've, I've because we took pictures, like I said in some video clips and I, you know, did that first shirt design and I'd put that picture of like us by this bear and everybody's like, oh, this bear. Why you got this picture of this dead bear? I'm like, it's alive.

1:07:39 So I had to like write spares alive. And I just revamped that design, actually just a couple months ago. So everybody looks at it and they see, oh, it's alive. And then I, you know, tell them the story. And yeah. What a classic story, man. Yeah, Yeah. So I mean, it's like most things, right? Every. And that's what makes it so interesting. Not to digress or go back to a previous topic, but that's the reason it makes it so interesting that there is so much bickering inside the outdoor community. Because you know, that story with you going to ice Spearing is the same as somebody that goes trout fishing in the summer or somebody that bow hunts a lot or somebody that loves trolling for salmon in Lake MI.

1:08:22 Like it's always to get those kind of stories. Yeah, you know we. Just want to be outdoors and as far as like if you want to actually put like fillets in your freezer, like dark house spraying is the least efficient method you can do. You know, the common saying for sturgeon spraying is you're duck hunting out a chimney. You know, you're on this massive lake and you cut this, you know, 3 by 4 foot hole. Well, that's where that fish needs to come through on this, you know, bag goes like what, 160,000 acres or something. So you're just praying that this fish is going to come through this little hole, that you're going to trick it with this decoy you've made or whatever you've got down. You know, the same goes for Pike like plenty of times, like I can see a Pike kind of just floating outside the hole looking at my decoy, but there's nothing I can do about that fish because it's way outside my range.

1:09:08 And I'll have guys that'll set up tip UPS around me and they're just hammering away at the Pike. You know, if I really wanted to put fillets in the freezer, I'd go with my buddies, you know, 3 tip up lines a guy and cover, you know, a couple acres and tip up lines versus this little 4 foot window I'm trying to get a fish out of. So, you know, I can see a lot of fish, but you know, at the end of the season I maybe I'm getting like 4, you know, Pike or whatever. We're not putting a hit on, you know, any sort of population. There is no biological impact as far as that goes. And yeah, you got to have good ice obviously to get out there, but then you got to have clarity too. So a lot of lakes kind of get eliminated right there because it's like, well, if it's super iron stained water and I can't see the fish, it doesn't do me any good to sit there and stare at pea soup like you're doing on bagel.

1:09:53 You don't have a choice because it's like, well, that is that is the season. It's a 16 day season and whatever the conditions are, that's it. And we haven't been hitting the harvest cap, you know, the last few years because it's been either bad ice or bad water clarity. Like this last season we had OK ice, but it's just pea soup and you know, we could see maybe like 3 feet and 18 feet of water while they're a bottom feeder fish. And it's really unlikely you're going to get them to come up. It does happen. But you know, you're just sitting on a hope and a prayer. So that's why the success rate on bagel is usually like 4 to 5%. And then upriver, even the last few years hasn't been that great. But upriver tends to be like 60% success rate just because it's it's shallower. You can usually see more and they're kind of staging up there a little more densely populated, but. Sure.

1:10:37 Yeah, I'm glad you bring that up because I think that's a good way to kind of circle in the rest of that conversation about, you know, the pushback to it because it seems like that that would be my take on it. Like one, each individual person isn't going to take many. And then I just don't see it being something that like the masses would take up overnight. It's kind of a unique thing to do. Yeah, I get a lot of guys when I do like, especially in Minnesota, I do a couple shows there and I get guys that ask me about Sturgeon Spear. And it's like hire a guide. Cuz if you don't know somebody directly that's gonna take you out, it's a very hard thing to get into. And and you know, it's already hard to have success. So if you're just blindly going out there, at least hire a guide, you know, that's doing some scouting and that's going to up your chances and they'll show you like here's how you cut the hole. Here's how you push the cake, which is the ice block down. And here's how you set up your shack and make it dark, you know, pack snow and all that around it. And yeah, you got to learn it somewhere. And yeah, for me, I've luckily had people that, you know, showed me the ropes to get started. And now I try to pass it on and bring new people out and. And yeah, you're not just gonna dive into it. You can't go to Cabela's and buy, you know, all the gear like anything else.

1:11:47 And. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is is Pike Spearing significantly different? A little. There's a ton of crossover as far as the hole and the shack goes. The decoys are a little bit different. They tend to be a little more realistic. You tend to move them a bit more like swimming more versus Sturgeon. They're bigger, brighter, more colorful. Most sturgeon guys are kind of leaving them just hanging there. I think part of that stems from a lot of the guys that around Bagel aren't trying to make them swim or they don't necessarily know how to make a decoy swim. So when a lot of guys get decoys from me and I tell them at swims, they kind of look at me funny and then they go that first season they're like, oh, I get it. Like there's actually action to this decoy and they'll move it some and, and a lot of the times, you know, I've only gotten one, but I've been with a couple buddies while they've gotten them. And, you know, I'm swimming that decoy. I'll jig it once.

1:12:37 It kind of seems like once it comes to a stop, then that's when that sturgeon comes in. And, you know, they're not like a Pike. They're not trying to eat it. They're just curious. So they'll come in and like kind of nudge it with their nose and look at it. And so I think that action does help, help a bit with sturgeon. Yeah, yeah. OK, yeah, that's fascinating, man. Something I want to try someday. I want to try everything. Sunday. Yeah, too far from here in in Green Bay. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah. Well, it was great chatting with you, man. Thanks for thanks for filling us in on some of your passions and and some of the things you do. I I don't doubt that I'm going to be a fish decoy purchaser customer someday because I don't know, they're just cool like I said, and I think my wife will let me have one in the house.

1:13:18 Yeah, that's always important. Yeah. Yeah, I really appreciate you having me on and talking, Yeah, a little bit about everything I do and interests and all that. Yeah, Thanks man. Thanks.