Patrick Durkin - Writing Career, Working Hard, Envy & Meat Eater - Episode #71

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What's up friends, welcome back
to Rooted Wisconsin.

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Appreciate you for clicking
another episode.

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Grateful to have you here.
Today's episode is with Patrick

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Durkin, outdoor writer based in
Eau Claire, WI.

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Fantastic career, really
fascinating conversation.

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Long time writer for the Green
Bay Press Gazette, Deer and Deer

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Hunting magazine and current
Meat Eater contributor.

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Patrick has a really cool career
and just a really cool take on

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the craft of writing and just
overall reflecting on life.

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Excellent conversation and I'm
excited to share it with you.

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Here we go Patrick Durkin.
Reached out to me a few years

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ago and I still writing in the
press because I can't remember

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what I wrote, what column it
was, but he reached out and said

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something.
And then next thing you know, I

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was up there doing a fishing law
fishing trip with him.

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Just floating down the, the, I
think it's like the West Branch,

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the Chippewa way up in, up in
Sora County and having a good

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day.
And his wife was teaching a

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course that day at some local
school.

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I think it's basket weaving or
some kind of thing with local

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locally grown fibres and
branches and stuff.

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So my wife, I dropped her off at
the at the class and John and I

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went fishing the late in the
day, Brendan Penney paddled down

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in their canoe, met up with us
and we finished the rest of the

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trip that way.
And we've been friends.

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That's been like 10-11 years ago
now.

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So yeah.
That's awesome.

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Yeah.
I love John.

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He's such a good guy.
He's one.

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One of my favorite parts about
John is talking with him with

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those glasses that snap
together.

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They'll come together and
they'll be a part.

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They'll come together and
they'll be a part 30 times in

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your conversation.
I love it, but he's just such a

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good guy.
Yeah, that's cool.

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And he loves debating.
I, I go, I don't debate on

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Facebook as my the practice I
try to follow as a writer is

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that, you know, Samuel Johnson,
that he's this great English

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author and philosopher from back
in the 1700s.

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I keep recording his on my on my
desk.

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It says no man but a blockhead
ever wrote wrote except for

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money.
No man but I could ever wrote

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except for money.
So I urge my find myself writing

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for free in any kind of format.
I start thinking you're throwing

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away what little, little worse
you have.

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Yeah.
And you're always giving it away

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on Facebook and whatever.
And so I when I go on Facebook,

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I just do friendly stuff, family
stuff, friend stuff.

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I don't do politics.
I don't divert myself as stay on

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on that, on those things where
you don't get paid.

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Yeah, As soon as I start having
to think about something, well,

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now you're thinking, you know,
this is what I do for a living.

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Yeah, absolutely.
And it's like anything else that

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I think, you know, that comes in
life where we all have areas of

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specialty.
Yeah.

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And then, you know, it's easy to
let whatever be the, the lines

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of friendship or the lines of
communication or wanting to help

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somebody blur the lines between,
OK, this is like, I have it,

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this skill, this thing that I
can make.

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But then, you know, it's, you
get that elbow shake and it's

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like, Hey, can you, can you give
me a hand or.

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Oh, I get that a lot, Yeah.
Especially I talked about it on

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on the Meat Eater podcast a few
years ago was one thing I was

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always good at from my early
days in newspapers was writing

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obituaries OK for for calm
people, important calm people

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who had died and if if somebody
like a former mayor or whatever

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it might be, if someone died,
they'd a jerk.

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That was my assignment for the
morning, to do a basically

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glorified obituary about the
guy.

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Yeah.
And so like, as even to this

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day, I still, I get to ask the
writing obituaries for family

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and friends and stuff and those
those I give away.

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But I did.
I got contracted one time from

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that Meat Eater podcast where I
family down in Illinois in the

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Chicago area, a famous architect
down there died.

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And I get this phone call one
day and they said, hey, I heard

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you in the Meat Eater podcast
and Steve talking about your

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respect for a good obituary and
would you write our fathers?

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And I'm kind of thinking I don't
have time for this.

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Yeah, as if as this part ready
to blow it off.

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My younger brother who's who's
much more business savvy than

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me.
He says, well, ask him how much

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they they'll pay you for it.
Just ask him, oh, good idea.

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He says in this tell me your
rates.

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And he said, chances are if this
guy's an architect, they

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probably have money and they
they don't even blink it.

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Whatever you're, whatever you
pitch, just make it your

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standard pitch.
So I did, didn't, didn't faze

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him.
I said sure don't, Don't pay

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that.
Nice.

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And you thought it was going to
be a hey, can you do this for 50

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bucks type too?
Yeah.

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Well, you know, that's for I'm
I'm something else 70 and I

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often get haunted by this
comment my dad made to me years

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ago.
God this was nice.

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I'm my 20s, I remember being
shocked by something and that

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somebody had done and some
public figure.

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I couldn't believe they did, did
whatever they did.

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My dad looks at me and says, you
know, Pat, in these days, you

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got to realize not everyone
thinks like you.

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And I've never forgotten that,
that I have a naive feel, you

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know, feel for people.
And I, I often tell people too

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these days, and I've learned my
wife that if she doesn't, if she

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doesn't like someone or has
suspicions about someone, I perk

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up and pay attention because.
She has the gauge on it.

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She is much better about siding
people up in the moment.

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And combine that with the ease
of like not putting the amount

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of value on your own work that
you do on others.

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That's a natural thing for a lot
of people.

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So you're coming like why would
anybody give me 5 grand to do

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this thing, you know?
Even though this is what you do

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for a living, yeah, it's still
you always fight with.

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That's a powerful quote though.
I'd I'd one of my kind of core

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pieces of what I live by is a
similar sentiment.

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It's just that I might be wrong
and I got it from a song.

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I got it from a song by a guy
named Paul Thorne, and he kind

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of frames it through the land
around lens around religion for

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his song.
There's a couple other things,

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but in life, I think it's a
great way to approach light

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because I, I have a tendency of
the things that I, especially

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when I was younger, I had a
tendency of the things that I

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hold dear and truly believe, you
know, we fight for those things

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and I think that's important to
do.

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But at the same time, tunnel
vision comes in really easily

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and it's my way or the highway
and I'm right.

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And the kind of that steadfast
thing.

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And I don't know, as I've gotten
older and, you know, hopefully

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developed as a human, I I try to
take that lens more often about

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just, you know, truly seeing
what the other side could be,

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whether that's somebody I agree
with, agree or disagree with,

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you know, whatever politically,
socially, fiscally, whatever,

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whatever.
I try to see the other side.

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And I think that's really
valuable info.

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Yeah.
How long ago was it?

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You think your dad told you
that?

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I can pretty much pinpoint it
down as being, I'm pretty sure

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I'm still in the Navy.
So it was probably back in the

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late 70s, so about 45 years ago.
That's amazing.

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Yeah, yeah.
And, and, and I think to this

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day, I'm still kind of that way.
I, I guess they, I, I, I, I

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watch my wife quite often in
certain situations and think,

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well, what's her take on this?
And ask her, you know, because a

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lot of times she won't say
anything about, I ask her about,

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you know, it becomes those kind
of things because she'd think

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she defers to me that, well,
this is your, these are people

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you're working with, you know,
you should know.

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And she's not going to
contradict something that I

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feel, you know, like I'm
comfortable with it.

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Yeah, until it comes to point
where she knows I'm getting

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ambivalent about something.
And she'll say, well, you know.

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That's awesome.
Are are you?

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This is something I think about
quite frequently too.

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Are you and your wife do you?
Complimentary personalities,

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would you say?
Yeah.

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Because, you know, one of the
little observations I, I've made

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a number of times, because it's
just something that hit me one

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time.
You know, you, I read this, I

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read the book years ago during
my Navy years.

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I read that, read that War and
Peace book.

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Yeah.
And I don't remember much about

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it, but I do remember one part.
And there were, they're just

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talking about this one couple
that got married and they've

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been along in the marriage far
enough to where they were

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finishing each other's
sentences.

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And I thought when my wife
finishes one of my sentences,

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I'd say she has about a 99%
chance of getting it wrong.

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You know, we don't think alike.
You know, when I'm saying

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something, she'll start assuming
she knows what I'm about to say

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and gets it wrong.
She'll finish my thought for me.

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And that's not what I was going
to say.

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Yeah.
And but I think that's so like,

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when I hear her terms like soul
mate, those kind of things, I

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think I'm not sure we fit that
fit in that category.

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I think ours just have, we have,
we have a certain respect for

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each other that playoff each
other strengths and weaknesses

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and it works for us.
But you know, when I hear people

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saying that they never fight
with their wife and that kind of

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thing, I think that's not us.
But you know, it's never it

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never it never the fights never
override the the underlying

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love.
You know that you but yes, think

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sometimes God, we just do not
think alike in some ways.

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But then another thing, though,
I think more important things, I

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think, like politics view much
in in lockstep there, but we

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come from, you know, different
backgrounds.

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You know, she's from New Jersey,
I'm from Madison.

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And so some, some things that
overlap, but other things, no,

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they don't.
Different religions, everything

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you know, so.
I think, I think that's a

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tremendous strength, to be
honest with you.

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I, I, my wife and I are similar.
We think about the world and see

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the world in a different way.
And similarly, you know, you

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know, either side, me finishing
her sentences or her finishing

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my sentences, it wouldn't
happen.

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You know, neither of us would
know it, but we, I I love that

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you mentioned the underlying
respect because that obviously

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has to be there.
But it, it's similar to life,

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right?
Like the best teams have a

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diverse blend of talent.
Oh, yeah, yeah.

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And our talent is very diverse.
She looks at the world most of

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the time, like outside of like
being a teacher or a podcaster,

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if somebody asks her what I do,
she's like, I don't really.

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I don't think she thinks about
it.

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I don't think she knows.
And like a lot of my interests

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in hers don't overlap.
But what what does overlap is

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the, you know, the love and
appreciation for each other and

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the the kind of awareness of the
situation that's really

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important.
And when you contrast that with,

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you know, you'll see, you know,
people, couples, husband and

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wife that have similar interests
where they, you know, their

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thing is the same and they do it
all together.

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And I don't know, I, I envision
a lot of things with that.

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You know, it seems like the ego
pull would come into that more

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frequently, where is like, if
two people like, complement each

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other, it's like you do what you
do.

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00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:12,520
I'm going to try to put you on
the highest mountain that I can.

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00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:14,680
I do what I do.
You put me on the highest

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mountain you can.
And we come together to create

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00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:18,240
this force.
I don't know.

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00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:19,160
It's valuable.
Yeah.

229
00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:23,040
How long have you been married?
It'll be it was just 45 years

230
00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:27,840
back in back in December, yeah.
Proof is in the pudding, right?

231
00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:31,800
Yeah, that's awesome.
And it's, you know, some of

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00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:36,080
those things, I, I, I, I always,
I, I find it fun to talk, talk

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00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:40,320
and think about the way
different people go through life

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00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:42,560
and how that contrasts with
mine.

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00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:46,240
And like, I've always, I've
always been faithful.

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00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:52,600
It's just not something that I
just know it'd be such a sign of

237
00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:54,240
disrespect.
Oh, yeah.

238
00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:57,040
And just so and bring so much
grief.

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00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:00,360
I think, God, that just wouldn't
be worth it.

240
00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:02,560
And plus you'd kill me, you
know?

241
00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:06,520
Yeah, yeah.
I couldn't imagine the burden

242
00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:08,480
that you would bear.
I can't either.

243
00:14:08,560 --> 00:14:12,360
I, I and I.
And then at the same time, I

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00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:16,080
remember one time back when
Tiger Woods merits fall apart

245
00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:19,880
and this cool work of mine was
saying he's a reprehensible

246
00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:22,720
human being.
He really condemned what what

247
00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:25,960
Tiger had done, the infidelity
he'd committed.

248
00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:29,520
I said, on the other hand, it's
easy.

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00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:34,240
I have I have AI like Mark Twain
and Mark Twain has these great,

250
00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:38,120
just wonderful quotes you always
and I always envy.

251
00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:42,360
And one of them was the weakest
of all weak things is a virtue

252
00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:44,040
that hasn't been tested in the
fire.

253
00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:49,360
And I always think it's easy for
me to be judgmental of people

254
00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:54,560
like Tiger Woods, these very
handsome, striking individuals.

255
00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:59,320
I can't imagine what gets thrown
at them.

256
00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:03,560
I mean, the temptations that
come in front of them were a

257
00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:05,840
normal looking 5 foot eight guy
like me.

258
00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,280
That's not my life.
I don't have people, you know,

259
00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:12,320
bowing to me and and trying to
seduce me and all that kind of

260
00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:14,000
stuff.
It's never happened in my life,

261
00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:18,520
but I look at guys like him.
He's I'd say they're, they're

262
00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:21,520
famous, They're everyone knows
who they are and they walk to an

263
00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:24,760
airport.
Can you imagine what their life

264
00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:26,200
is?
It's not even the same kind of

265
00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:29,840
experience we have.
So I have a hard time getting

266
00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:32,600
all judgmental about because I
think we don't know what they

267
00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:36,560
have turned down and pursued and
those kind of things.

268
00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:40,200
I don't know that life and I
mean, look at different errors

269
00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:43,040
that people live through.
I I remember reading about

270
00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:48,840
England in World War 2, when the
husband go off to war and the

271
00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:53,600
wife would be left behind.
They knew even in London, living

272
00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:55,880
in London, they could die
tomorrow too.

273
00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:59,320
And so there was a lot of people
that just when their husbands

274
00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:03,160
and wives were not, when they
weren't together, they slept

275
00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:08,040
around and 'cause they, this
might be it for them and who

276
00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:11,360
knows what kind of torment
they're living, you know, being

277
00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:14,320
apart from each other like that.
And so I used to have a hard

278
00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:17,480
time judging that.
I think I've read about it.

279
00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:19,240
I find it kind of, wow, that's
interesting.

280
00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:22,800
But that's what the extent to my
action on it.

281
00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:24,240
I'm not going to act on that
wall.

282
00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,840
They did it. 100% agree.
Absolutely.

283
00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:31,840
That's a that's a really unique
example for me because Tiger

284
00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:34,800
Woods was one of my childhood
year olds and I I really looked

285
00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:36,920
up to him and, and I feel the
same way about it.

286
00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:40,240
I couldn't, I couldn't envision
myself doing it.

287
00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:42,760
But you don't know everything
else that comes into that

288
00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:47,160
situation.
I have to assume that when you

289
00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:52,120
meet your, the person you decide
to marry after you achieve a

290
00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:55,920
certain level of success, there
has to be a constant watch out

291
00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:59,200
and probably a lot of reality
about more or more of a

292
00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:04,960
transactional scenario than a
just committed, respectful

293
00:17:05,079 --> 00:17:08,480
scenario.
And I, I didn't have anything

294
00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:11,119
when I met my wife.
So I know that.

295
00:17:11,599 --> 00:17:16,040
I know that it's not that, you
know, And I have to assume that

296
00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:18,400
that affects how you navigate
life too.

297
00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:21,880
And then there's a whole other
thing of like, for someone to be

298
00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:25,119
the best in the world at
something, you're wired

299
00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:28,200
differently.
And that has to come into play

300
00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:29,800
in your social relationships,
too.

301
00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:35,680
It's funny that him and Kobe
Bryant and really not so much

302
00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:37,440
Brett Favre.
Mine was more Aaron Rodgers, who

303
00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:41,240
is so far lived a straight and
narrow for the most part.

304
00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:46,400
And but like when you think of
the the prior 3, they're pretty

305
00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:48,640
big scandals now.
Brett's went a different

306
00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:51,560
direction and I'm glad I wasn't
as connected to him as I was

307
00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:55,280
with with with Kobe and Tiger.
Like, I, I started playing golf

308
00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:58,800
at 11:10 or 11 years old because
of Tiger Woods and just thinking

309
00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,560
how cool he was and seeing him
change the game of golf.

310
00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:04,640
And then all this stuff comes
out and I remember being in your

311
00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:06,640
exact seat feeling your exact
same way.

312
00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:09,680
Like, that's kind of a bummer.
I couldn't do it.

313
00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:15,240
But I, he's a golfer and a, and
a human, you know, separately.

314
00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:18,560
And I remember that was a huge
thing when it came out,

315
00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:27,640
everybody was throwing blades.
Right Oh yeah, I I see.

316
00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:33,680
Like for me, my big lifelong
heroes been John Kennedy and and

317
00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:36,840
then when it when it came out
that, you know, he was basically

318
00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:39,760
ran like a frat horse at times.
You know, I'm running around on

319
00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:44,720
his wife and but I and I
realized, well, you know, it's a

320
00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:48,560
different era, different mores,
different things he grew up in.

321
00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:53,960
And look at all these famous
people in in history, Franklin

322
00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:57,880
Roosevelt, Thomas Jefferson,
awful lot infidelity in that.

323
00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:02,720
And again, I, I another thing I
quote that comes to mind is

324
00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:06,600
Henry Kissinger when he was
famous back in the 60s and 70s.

325
00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:09,000
He was not a handsome man by any
means.

326
00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:10,360
I don't feel you can picture him
at all.

327
00:19:10,360 --> 00:19:15,680
But but he he made a comment one
time that power is the greatest

328
00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:17,720
aphrodisiac.
Yeah.

329
00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:21,200
And I thought, yeah, we sit here
and get all judgmental, these

330
00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:24,280
people.
But I think my take away, my

331
00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:27,560
bottom line is on those kind of
things is, you know, if they're

332
00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:32,680
human and if there's judging to
be done, I'm not going to do it.

333
00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,280
You know, I think that's.
I'm not the judge and jury.

334
00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:39,920
I'm not in a position here to
offer a whole lot of anything

335
00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:41,720
that that they would ever care
about.

336
00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:44,280
Yeah, yeah.
I doubt those guys, they knew

337
00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:46,640
who I was.
They wouldn't care, you know,

338
00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:50,280
and but, but I don't respect
those sides of their

339
00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:55,280
personalities or on their life.
On their hand, I look at the way

340
00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:59,480
they loved words, the way they
could put craft words together

341
00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:02,760
and express ideas.
I mean, for God's sake, this

342
00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:07,560
country's had some wonderful
people, smart people that could

343
00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:12,200
craft, you know, the Declaration
of Independence and could, could

344
00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:15,320
deliver a speech like the the
one that Kennedy gave when he

345
00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:18,640
was inaugurated, the one he gave
when we we decided to go to the

346
00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:21,200
moon.
I watched those guys speak and I

347
00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:24,720
think.
Oh my God, what talents, you

348
00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:29,720
know, I just envy it how how
good they were on, on on the

349
00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:33,120
podium great orators have.
Always fascinated.

350
00:20:33,120 --> 00:20:36,160
Me, yeah.
And I, so I think, well, they're

351
00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:39,120
human.
They also have their bad sides.

352
00:20:39,120 --> 00:20:42,520
And I think we all have things
we could work on.

353
00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:45,960
Yes, we all live in the glass
house, the proverbial glass

354
00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:47,880
house.
That's a great segue, man.

355
00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:50,880
Let's talk about where your
passion starts in the writing.

356
00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:54,120
Where, how did, how did you
realize that that was going to

357
00:20:54,120 --> 00:20:56,520
be something that you enjoyed
and wanted to do?

358
00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:04,120
I, I kind of came by it
realizations were I was going in

359
00:21:04,120 --> 00:21:10,640
the, in the Navy back in 1975
and I was set on a, the thing I

360
00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:13,280
wanted to do was my idea at the
time, I wanted to be a

361
00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:15,720
firefighter.
My dad was a firefighter.

362
00:21:16,120 --> 00:21:20,320
His dad was a firefighter on the
mass and mass and fire

363
00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:22,120
department.
And so I thought, well, that's

364
00:21:22,120 --> 00:21:25,720
what I want to do.
So I, I went down and I knew in

365
00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:31,080
that era, the best chance for a
guy, a white guy with no

366
00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:33,840
affirmative action thing, that
kind of thing.

367
00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:37,080
You have to find a way to get on
a equal footing.

368
00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:41,120
So if one of those jobs, the
best way for a guy like me was

369
00:21:41,120 --> 00:21:44,520
to to the military.
And so I joined the Navy because

370
00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:49,600
they had this great, it's called
a hull maintenance technician.

371
00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:52,560
They taught you firefighting,
they taught you damage control.

372
00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:57,440
They also taught you lots of
great trades like carpentry,

373
00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:01,280
sheet metal work, pipe work,
welding, all these kind of great

374
00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:03,640
skills.
And so I thought, man, I come on

375
00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:06,840
the Navy, I'm going to have all
these great skills and be able

376
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:09,000
to get in the fire department.
I'll have all that background

377
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,120
and a dad.
Meanwhile, I was looking at the

378
00:22:11,120 --> 00:22:14,000
same stuff that brought home
from the recruiter.

379
00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:17,320
And he was a big guy on public
service.

380
00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:21,040
And so he, he was, he'd been,
he'd been in the Army, he'd been

381
00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:22,640
in the Coast Guard Reserve for
years.

382
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:24,440
Anyway, he's looking all my
material.

383
00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:28,960
He says the Navy has a
journalism program and he's

384
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:31,520
reading the Vice.
You know, as good as you write,

385
00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:34,200
you shouldn't look into that.
He recommended that to you?

386
00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:36,320
Yeah.
He recommended that to me and I,

387
00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:40,000
and I, like most 19 year olds,
didn't listen to him.

388
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,520
I went into the Navy, got to
look all the damage controls

389
00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:48,880
training and all, all this
firefighting work and dad's

390
00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,880
point being a firefighter, this
was his career.

391
00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:55,880
He knew when it comes to hiring
someone, they wouldn't care what

392
00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:59,000
you did in the Navy.
So do this for yourself.

393
00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:02,120
You know, once you have the Navy
background, that's all you need

394
00:23:02,120 --> 00:23:04,240
to get a fire department job.
They aren't going to look and

395
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:07,320
see that you were trained in
firefighting and damage control.

396
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:09,000
You know, just say you're in the
Navy.

397
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:12,680
And he said the Navy teaches
everyone basic firefighting and

398
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:18,160
they do, you know, it's a ship.
A ship, you know, gets hit, has

399
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:20,400
a fire.
You're not going to run outside

400
00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:22,960
and get away from it.
You know, you got stay there and

401
00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:25,640
deal with it.
So anyway, I didn't listen to

402
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:29,320
Dad.
I went in the Navy, did all the

403
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:33,000
Navy jobs I had and then that.
But in the meantime, I was

404
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,720
always writing home.
I, I wrote some letters.

405
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:39,280
I even got to the point where I
bought myself a manual

406
00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:42,880
typewriter is much faster, much
faster than write letters on

407
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:47,320
typewriter than the longhand.
And in the process, I start

408
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:51,560
getting feedback from friends
and and aunts, uncles,

409
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:53,160
grandmothers, that kind of
thing.

410
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:57,200
And I kept hearing as
descriptive, as as descriptive

411
00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,640
as you write, you should go into
journalism when you get out.

412
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:03,680
And I heard that enough times.
I finally started to realize

413
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:07,400
that Dad had been right, that he
had a pretty good insight into

414
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:09,320
me.
And so when I got out in the

415
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:13,920
Navy, I was still applying for
firefighter jobs, but I thought,

416
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:18,560
I'm going to try college for a
semester again, see how I do.

417
00:24:19,120 --> 00:24:21,480
And at the end of the semester,
I'm, I'm doing OK.

418
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:25,400
I'll probably stay and get my
degree, then worry about my, my

419
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:29,280
first job, you know, But by the
time I got out of college three

420
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:31,680
years later, because I, I had
some college before I went in

421
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:35,920
that time I got out of college,
I was doing well enough in

422
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:40,080
journalism between writing and
copy editing, where I stayed in

423
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:42,640
journalism.
And it was funny.

424
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:47,400
Years later, it's Dad.
Dad's idea was that at that

425
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,360
time, by the time I got out of
the Navy, David, that was a

426
00:24:50,360 --> 00:24:53,800
massive Fire Chief, you know,
the guy who hires firefighters.

427
00:24:55,360 --> 00:24:57,080
So I would have had an in, you
know.

428
00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:00,800
Yeah, I had the Navy background.
I was a top student in college.

429
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:02,920
I had almost a straight A
average.

430
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:06,120
But when I came back out of
college and so I really had an

431
00:25:06,120 --> 00:25:08,920
in.
But I decided, well, I like this

432
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:10,280
enough for him to make it a
career.

433
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,920
And so I stayed in journalism,
got hired at the Oshkosh

434
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:16,520
newspaper and went from there,
The deer and deer hunting

435
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:18,320
magazine up in Appleton at the
time.

436
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,360
And by the time Dad was off the
fire department, I was in a

437
00:25:22,360 --> 00:25:25,880
career.
And years went by and I remember

438
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:30,400
when he was, he was still alive
till, till, let's see, nine

439
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:35,120
years ago, almost 8 1/2 years
ago, when, when dad was probably

440
00:25:35,120 --> 00:25:39,880
in his mid 80s, I said to him,
you know, if I'd listen to you,

441
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:42,600
I'd have been retired 10 years
ago with a pension.

442
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:47,800
And here I am still working, you
know.

443
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,000
Yeah.
Then I think, well, this is must

444
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,400
be what I do because I'm, I'm 70
now.

445
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:57,600
I'm still working and I but I
but I think I wasn't the last

446
00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:02,000
people to really realize I had a
talent in writing that that was

447
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,520
good enough to where I can make
a living at it.

448
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:08,640
And I have, you know, so, but
I've always been a big reader.

449
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:14,000
And from the time I was in in, I
remember in second grade being

450
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:18,440
in, I still remember our second
grade teacher, Carolyn White.

451
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:23,280
She had every student in the
class and had a little rocket

452
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:28,760
ship and there's a little mural
across the front of the class.

453
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,960
And I had like the the
stratospheres, different things

454
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:36,640
that rocket could go up through.
And so like we all had a little

455
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:39,520
rocket ship.
Every time you completed a book,

456
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,440
your rocket ship would go up
that wall a little bit.

457
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:45,080
And I still remember to this
day.

458
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:50,000
So this is like 1962.
You know, to this day, I can

459
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:54,320
still Remember Me, Sue Mcginnity
and Lisa Eckert were the top

460
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:55,800
three students for reading
books.

461
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,280
And we're we're just fighting
each other to go up that wall

462
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:00,320
before the other one could.
Yeah.

463
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,720
And I, and I think to this day,
I still have a lot of those kids

464
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,800
books from my childhood, you
know, like Davy Crockett books

465
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,400
and Hardy Boy books, those kind
of things.

466
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:15,840
And, and I just really realized,
well, you know, I was a sickly

467
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:19,080
kid, so I spent a lot of time
sitting in bed reading.

468
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:23,520
And I think that just kind of
helped shaped who I became, you

469
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:25,520
know, this idea, you know,
there's, there's always

470
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:27,920
something to be learned.
There's always different

471
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:31,680
perspectives to to glean.
And I always read, I always read

472
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:35,240
non fiction more than fiction
and just always had an interest

473
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,480
in history and all these kind of
things that helped me as a

474
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:44,040
journalist later in life where I
could, you know, just recall

475
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,280
things I'd read.
And but I've never that I was

476
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:49,320
never the smartest kid in the
class, but I was always, you

477
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,720
know, at least good enough to
hold my own, you know, and

478
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,680
sometimes in your writing, pull
stuff out of your head that you

479
00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:00,520
had from books you'd read years
before that helped shaped how

480
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:04,040
you look at things and give you
examples of things that you you

481
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:06,160
kind of pulled into your your
writing.

482
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:08,880
And it's just always, to me,
kind of been a fun part of my

483
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:13,320
work that I can still think of
things that I read as a kid that

484
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:15,840
informed my thinking, you know,
decades later.

485
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:19,760
What a blessing to find it.
Oh yeah.

486
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,120
You know, especially after a
nudge in the direction and you

487
00:28:23,120 --> 00:28:25,680
still kind of went down the
path.

488
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:31,040
It was.
It was really, it kind of tells

489
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:32,600
you too, though.
Your life can go in lots of

490
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,520
different directions.
Yeah, really easily.

491
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:40,880
And, and I'm sure if I would
have gone and followed the path

492
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:44,800
that I had when I was 19, that I
had in mind, I didn't pray, had

493
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:47,280
pray, had a good career, I still
think I could have done it.

494
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:49,440
I think I had the right
temperament for that.

495
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:51,760
That's one of the reasons my dad
pushed me into it, because he

496
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:54,000
knew I didn't have a fear of
heights.

497
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:57,320
I didn't have a fear of the kind
of things that some people deal

498
00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:01,400
with and any thought for
firefighting, that I had the

499
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:05,280
right personality for it.
And this, from what he observed,

500
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:07,360
and it's one thing I learned
too, is when you're a kid, you

501
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:11,040
know, you don't have any respect
for what your parents do.

502
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,040
At least I didn't.
I didn't really appreciate what

503
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:18,560
Dad has was accomplishing it in
his life was until I was, you

504
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,800
know, an adult myself and really
start seeing some different

505
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:26,960
things I had navigated, started
to really understand that guy.

506
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:33,080
He had his faults too, but God,
he was a sharp guy and never,

507
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,560
never finished high school, got
his GED and went on to become

508
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:40,320
the mass and Fire Chief, You
know, So you think, yeah, if

509
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,560
you're motivated and you have
that perseverance and the

510
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,960
intelligence and the talents,
who knows where you can take

511
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:48,760
that, you know?
But it still, it still comes

512
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:52,520
back to you and, and what you do
with it, other people can't do

513
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:55,840
it for you and they can get your
get your foot in the door.

514
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,600
But once you're in there, you
better not make them look bad,

515
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,320
you know so.
Yeah, yeah.

516
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,320
I mean, well, especially in your
in the career you ended up

517
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:06,640
choosing, right.
The the proof is so immediate

518
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,520
and in the pudding, you know?
You're being yeah, that's one

519
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:12,920
thing.
I one thing I always respected

520
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:16,520
about that is it's being
evaluated every day, you know,

521
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:17,960
every, every time you write
something.

522
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,640
And that's why I still lay
advice to give people who I

523
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:25,440
mean, talk to classes about
those journalism classes or

524
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:30,520
English classes, classes,
freelancing seminars and stuff.

525
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,480
Now you have to give every
article you write your best

526
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:36,760
shot.
And sometimes your best shots

527
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,280
going to be not what you like,
but forgiving the time

528
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:44,000
constraints might be or whatever
it might be, or the, OR the, the

529
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:48,200
topic, you still owe it to your
readers to give it your best

530
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,760
shot every time because you
never know which thing they're

531
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:55,160
going to going to read and from
their opinion of you.

532
00:30:55,600 --> 00:31:00,160
And I can, and I also know too,
that you can't dwell on

533
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:02,600
negative, negative feedback from
people either.

534
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:09,080
I mean, I get plenty of that
people who don't like a take I

535
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,920
have on something, an opinion
I'll offer on something.

536
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:14,800
They're not afraid of telling
you what they think.

537
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:17,560
And that's well and good.
And that's, you know, and

538
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:22,160
that's, and that's really that
the, the, the ethic I, I have is

539
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,400
that this is, this is the United
States of America.

540
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,680
They're entitled to share their
opinion and they're the one

541
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:31,960
reading the newspapers.
They don't like it or the

542
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,240
magazine or they listen to a
podcast.

543
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,760
They're entitled to their
opinion of you and, and what you

544
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:39,960
say.
And you can't fault them for

545
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:41,280
that.
I mean, I might not like it.

546
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:45,560
I'd when people say I, I invite
criticism, I think I don't want

547
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:47,320
to invite it.
I yeah, I'm going to get it

548
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:48,640
whether I want it or not, you
know?

549
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,560
Yeah.
Yeah, and there's a, there's a

550
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:56,360
probably an interesting.
Well, there is because I mean,

551
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:58,560
like you said it, it goes to a
lot of creative realms.

552
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:02,520
But there there's a They're not
saying your writing sucks,

553
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:04,560
they're saying they think your
opinion sucks.

554
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:08,440
They told me that too though.
Really.

555
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:14,680
What?
What the leg do they have to

556
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:16,720
stand on?
You know the keyboard warriors

557
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,000
saying, right?
Well, that's that's what you

558
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:20,640
take.
You take can't.

559
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:27,280
Believe you Zilac for comma.
It's, it's, it is interesting.

560
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,080
One of the one of the things I
remember being fascinated by him

561
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:32,840
as a young reporter down in
Oshkosh.

562
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:34,640
That's probably like in my late
20s.

563
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:37,600
And, you know, and I remember
covering school board meetings

564
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:42,040
and City Council meetings and
seeing, you know, they have

565
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:46,200
these, they have these every
City Council, every school

566
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:48,560
board, they always have, they
open the meetings usually with

567
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:52,000
public input.
And that's resources board in

568
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,000
the DNR, whatever it might be.
They usually have a public

569
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,720
forum.
And that was literally the first

570
00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:03,600
time in my life I remember being
just, you know, being naive that

571
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:09,200
an adult would stand in front of
a public body and talk nonsense

572
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:13,360
and be so convinced that their
nonsense has, has, has

573
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:17,240
credibility.
And I just think, what world do

574
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,040
these people live in?
You know, and I just, I remember

575
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:25,080
being just so shocked by people
standing up like that in a, in a

576
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,880
public setting and making a fool
of themselves and not realizing

577
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:30,280
they just made a fool of
themselves.

578
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:32,840
So there's a really strong
connection there to something

579
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:36,240
you said earlier about the the
debate and comment section on

580
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,840
social media.
It is flabbergasting how many

581
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:43,520
people will read most of it.
A lot of Times Now today's it's

582
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:45,760
not even the the article.
They'll read the headline of an

583
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:51,560
article and develop this staunch
opinion about something and just

584
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:53,560
be comfortable shouting from the
rooftops.

585
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:56,800
And like anybody who read the
actual article reads it and like

586
00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:57,720
you're an.
Idiot.

587
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:01,680
I could.
I hadn't.

588
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:06,120
I had an article just recently,
like every time I write

589
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:09,560
something that goes on my own
website or goes on

590
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:14,440
themeateater.com or goes into a
a newspaper like Wisconsin

591
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:16,440
Doctor News and other people
that care.

592
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:20,239
My column I post links to to
that stuff.

593
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:24,600
And I wrote a column just
recently about chronic waste

594
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:30,239
disease in Wisconsin and how
it's, it's interesting how our,

595
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:35,360
our counties with the absolute
best deer habitat are also the

596
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:39,040
colonies with the worst CWD
problems.

597
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,280
And I put a lot of time into
that article.

598
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:44,800
A lot of, I only call it
research.

599
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:48,480
I call homework because research
I, I was seeing a scientist and

600
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:50,880
all that kind of stuff, but
you're following a certain

601
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:55,239
program to, and then peer review
all the things that involve

602
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:56,880
research.
I look at my stuff as more or

603
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,600
less more, it's more like
homework where I'm reading up on

604
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:02,760
stuff and interviewing people.
I remember writing this article

605
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:08,160
really investing a lot of time
into the the facts behind it and

606
00:35:08,240 --> 00:35:11,120
putting it out there.
And then you put a link on

607
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:16,200
Facebook and I tell you, Brad,
what I think about when I see

608
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:17,760
it.
The comments that start coming

609
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:21,440
in is basically all I did was
told them a chunk of meat that

610
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:25,200
you on, you know, by saying
here, go read my column.

611
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:27,800
Here's a link to it.
They don't bother with that.

612
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,680
They just go straight to that
chunk of meat about the headline

613
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,760
and just start chewing up.
And after the first comment or

614
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:38,800
two, it just evolves into this
pit.

615
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:41,240
They just start ending this
picture, these dogs on this pit

616
00:35:41,240 --> 00:35:44,280
fighting.
And it's just like they who who

617
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:48,560
Pat Durkin who's that into the
into the responding to my my

618
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:52,800
original post yeah. 100 comments
later, 200 comments later,

619
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:54,280
they're just turning each other
apart.

620
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:58,280
I'm running a part of the.
Finger dance later piece, Yeah.

621
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:05,240
And that happens so often.
I think, God, no, that's that's

622
00:36:05,240 --> 00:36:06,440
where it where it gets
frustrating.

623
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:10,400
Sometimes you want to provide
information for folks to chew

624
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,720
on, you know, to think about.
You realize so many though, they

625
00:36:13,720 --> 00:36:16,920
have their, they have their mind
made-up and they are going to be

626
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:20,240
swayed.
And so then it's easy in those

627
00:36:20,240 --> 00:36:22,400
cases that to, to get
discouraged.

628
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:27,600
But I'd also believe in the idea
that you never, you never know

629
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,720
who's reading your stuff.
That's one of my long, lifelong

630
00:36:30,720 --> 00:36:32,880
lessons.
And that you'd like to think

631
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:34,680
that.
Well, yeah, the ones you're

632
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:40,680
hearing from in that Facebook
forum, there's probably many

633
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:43,520
more people out there who are
not like that who actually did

634
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:46,160
read the column.
And then they're busy too,

635
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,840
though you can't split some note
to wait into that mess and get

636
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:51,120
the middle of that.
They just.

637
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:53,880
Well, a lot of them are sitting
there, they actually read the

638
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,560
article and they're sitting
there doing the same thing.

639
00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,040
We are looking at the comments
and being like, look at this

640
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:00,840
Jackass.
It doesn't even pay to talk to

641
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:03,400
this person.
And, and that's certainly

642
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:04,760
happens.
I mean, it happens with the

643
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:08,600
podcast too.
I, I, my mission is long form

644
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:10,160
content.
I think there's a lot of value

645
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:13,160
in it.
At the same time, our attention

646
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:16,640
span is compressed and social
media amplifies those fringes

647
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:21,400
that are willing to hop in the
comments section and like they

648
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:25,600
that provides them a platform.
But the vast like there's a

649
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:29,680
whole other group out there
that's taking in the full form

650
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:33,680
content, getting something out
of it and then making it theirs.

651
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:37,680
And that's the logical people
that you meet walking around

652
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:40,880
town all day.
Because if not, if that didn't

653
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:45,080
exist, we would walk around town
and our personal communication

654
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:47,600
would resemble social media
communication.

655
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:50,440
And really those two worlds
don't resemble each other.

656
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:55,040
And that's important, man.
And I think, I don't know, I, I

657
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:58,480
spent some thought time on that
about like how that is part of

658
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:03,680
the, you know, de evolution of
our society in a way of

659
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:07,880
amplifying that as opposed to
critical thinking and curiosity

660
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:09,520
and all these things that are so
valuable.

661
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:14,840
Yeah, yeah, I, I the things I
lament a lot with the

662
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:18,320
development of social media and
the Internet, all those kinds of

663
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:22,200
things that came along by
halfway through my career was

664
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:25,280
when I was a kid.
One of the things I still value

665
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:29,280
is I was a newspaper carrier.
I delivered newspapers for like

666
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:34,040
3 years on the bicycle and, and
I'd say in the neighborhood I

667
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:35,880
lived in, in the West side of
Madison.

668
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:40,440
I bet you that newspaper that I
delivered the Capital Times in

669
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:43,400
the afternoons in the State
Journal on Sunday mornings.

670
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:47,320
I bet you it was probably 60 to
70% of the people living in that

671
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:50,600
area got the paper.
I didn't, I didn't bypass too

672
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,280
many homes.
Most homes cut the paper.

673
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:56,440
And so they're all, they're all
reading kind of from the same

674
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:00,720
information source.
And then there's good local

675
00:39:00,720 --> 00:39:02,920
news.
I mean, they covered papers,

676
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:07,080
covered the schools, City
Council, county board, all these

677
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:11,080
kind of things that are, are,
are the community now look today

678
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:15,880
and I think there's no local
coverage, at least not much, not

679
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:18,800
enough for most of us to really
know what's going on down in in

680
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:21,440
City Hall, in the schools and
those kind of things.

681
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:22,920
And really, what are these
issues?

682
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:26,480
And most people think, think the
only thing we talked about is

683
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:29,320
budgets.
And there's so many things that

684
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:33,440
communities should be aware of.
And those forums are now taking

685
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:35,320
place.
The social media is the medium.

686
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:40,480
It's happening.
But the the path to gaining

687
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:44,040
knowledge isn't the same for the
user journey.

688
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:47,840
It's it's that it's like people
see the headline, read the

689
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:51,200
comments, then if they get to
the point where they're in their

690
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:54,200
curiosity is peaked, then they
go to the article.

691
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:57,600
Yeah, let's flip that.
You know, let's reverse that.

692
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:02,360
Yeah, that's a good point is
it's like, you know, ready fire,

693
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:03,560
aim.
Yeah.

694
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:04,920
And.
Exactly.

695
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:08,480
And but then, you know, on the
other hand, there are, you do

696
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:11,720
know, like we were talking
about, there are people, I like

697
00:40:11,720 --> 00:40:14,360
to think most people because
when I, when I look at the

698
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:19,080
feedback I've gotten over the
years, I'd still say 8090% of my

699
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:22,200
feedback is positive.
You know, I, I hear from some

700
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:26,360
real nasty people and, and some
of these nasty people stay after

701
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:28,920
you for years.
They just never let up.

702
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:34,560
And, but I, I, I like to think
too, that it's my very little

703
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:37,320
Nuggets I got from my dad.
I like to tell a story.

704
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:40,880
Dad was like I say, the Fire
Chief of Madison.

705
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:44,080
Before that he was the union
president for the local fart

706
00:40:44,240 --> 00:40:47,040
farted firefighters.
So he saw from both angles, you

707
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:50,120
know, the management,
administration and also the the

708
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:54,160
rank and file.
He always kept his name in the

709
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:57,040
phone book.
His address in his name is

710
00:40:57,040 --> 00:40:59,800
always in the phone book.
And so sometimes you got these

711
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:03,000
angry phone calls at home and my
mom didn't like it.

712
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:07,880
My grandmother who lived with
us, she kind of rolled with it

713
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:13,320
and she was proud of her son and
she didn't get too blown away by

714
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:14,960
it.
But dad always kept his name in

715
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:17,120
the phone book.
And I asked him one time years

716
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:19,400
later, because I always thought
it was kind of an interesting

717
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:21,680
thing that you didn't you didn't
have to have your name in the

718
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:24,160
phone book back then.
You could pay a little fee and

719
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,000
they'd keep it out.
I asked him why did why did you

720
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:28,280
always keep your name in the
phone book?

721
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:32,680
And I thought just get get like
AI don't know cut that by ants.

722
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:37,040
But he had thought about it and
he said he always, every time he

723
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:40,280
had that thought of taking his
name out of the phone book, he'd

724
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:44,280
tell himself, you know this, the
people of Madison pay my wages.

725
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:47,000
Therefore they should have a
right to.

726
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:50,800
If they don't like something I'm
I've said or done, they can call

727
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:53,240
my home and yell at me, leave a
message, if nothing else.

728
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:58,320
And when he came into his days
as a union guy and then the

729
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:04,200
chief physician, newspapers and
radio, TV, we're always calling

730
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:06,600
the house looking for interviews
and reactions.

731
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:09,000
And he never took his name out
of the phone book.

732
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:12,080
He called him back.
And I learned a few tricks from

733
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:13,840
him.
I asked him, well, you know,

734
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:15,680
when he became chief, what was
that like?

735
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:18,080
He said, well, if they called me
and caught me after I read the

736
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:20,680
question, I'd say I'm really in
the middle of something right

737
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:22,600
now.
What do you want to know?

738
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:23,960
I'll get back in a couple
minutes.

739
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:27,920
And they'd, they'd tell him what
the topic was and they'd come up

740
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:29,920
with a few ideas and then call
him back.

741
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:31,960
That was, that was, that was
clever.

742
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:34,960
You know, that's smart.
You know, you know, you know, if

743
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:38,520
you cannot, cannot, if you don't
have to act and react in the

744
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:40,800
moment, why just give it a
little thought 1st.

745
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:44,040
And then because I like for me,
even being asked a simple

746
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:48,960
question, how many times I'd see
it differently if I had a chance

747
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:53,440
to flex it first all the time.
Most of us aren't that great off

748
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:57,520
the off the cuff, you know, Some
people are, but most of us

749
00:42:57,560 --> 00:42:59,360
aren't.
Especially in those emotionally

750
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:01,200
charged situations that he's
facing.

751
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:03,040
You know what's fascinating
about that though?

752
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:05,760
Along with this conversation, as
I bet there was times along that

753
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:09,920
journey that when that phone
rang, he left the conversation

754
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:12,200
with a different perspective.
Whether it was a package

755
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:15,440
delivered effectively or not,
there was probably things he

756
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:18,280
found along the way that he
wouldn't have thought about,

757
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:21,760
wouldn't have done, wouldn't
have considered if he didn't get

758
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:25,720
those phone calls.
And we're missing a lot of that.

759
00:43:25,720 --> 00:43:28,600
You know, we get these echo
chambers of the I'm right, I'm

760
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:33,040
right, I'm right, I'm right.
And then, you know, we turn off

761
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:35,720
the comments, right?
Or like, that's kind of where I

762
00:43:35,720 --> 00:43:39,120
am with social media.
I very rarely go through the

763
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:42,000
comments.
Right, like when I was telling

764
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:46,240
you about earlier, I know I only
scanned me a third of them

765
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:51,560
because it's got like, it's just
so repetitive and just mind

766
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:56,640
numbing, you know, And I, I
don't, I don't, I don't know how

767
00:43:56,640 --> 00:44:00,480
people live like that.
And I, I like to, I, I always, I

768
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:02,720
always like to quote.
And then the little things I

769
00:44:02,720 --> 00:44:06,240
wrote on my typed out and
printed off and put stuck on my

770
00:44:06,240 --> 00:44:10,880
desktop was a line from Kris
Kristofferson to beat the devil,

771
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:15,800
the song to beat the devil.
And basically you got, you got

772
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:19,360
to hope that someone out there
cares, You know, that, you know,

773
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:22,920
if you spend your time talking
to people and thinking they all

774
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:26,200
don't care.
No, you guys think that some of

775
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:28,120
them do care.
And she keeps saying it.

776
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:31,240
You keep putting information out
there hoping that someone's

777
00:44:31,240 --> 00:44:33,880
going to care.
And I think, I think a lot more

778
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:37,440
people care than me than we
think, you know, So I, that's

779
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:40,880
why I keep keep your mind myself
those days when I'm just feeling

780
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:45,480
beaten down and not making any
headway with a certain amount of

781
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:46,840
information I'm trying to
provide.

782
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:51,400
And, and for much of my career
now, it's funny for me, I look

783
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:55,120
back and think I've been writing
about chronic waste disease and

784
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:59,320
deer for 25 years now.
And I think, what did I write

785
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:02,880
about the 1st 1819 years of my
career, You know, jeez.

786
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:06,480
Yeah.
How did that, how did that door

787
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:08,920
open?
Was that a was that a Well,

788
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:10,680
deer?
And deer hunting was a big

789
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:13,120
portion of your career, right?
Yeah, about 11 years.

790
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:14,880
Yeah.
How did that door open?

791
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:17,840
Is that a?
Was that a collision of

792
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:20,240
interests?
Or definitely OK.

793
00:45:20,240 --> 00:45:23,000
Yeah.
My, my, when I stood off

794
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:27,280
newspapers, it was I started
working in the sports department

795
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:30,520
in Oshkosh in 1982.
I was still in college at UW

796
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:36,160
Oshkosh.
But I, I knew because I, I, I

797
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:39,400
thought at the time, if I could
get in one aspect of journalism,

798
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:41,440
it would eventually be outdoor
writing.

799
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:44,440
And I really liked the idea of
being an outdoor writer for a

800
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:46,600
newspaper in the Milwaukee
Journal.

801
00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:49,320
I grew up reading a grip reading
this, the State Journal in

802
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:53,880
Madison, Milwaukee Journal.
I had outdoor writers and, but

803
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:56,880
time I was in my, you know,
college age, mid 20s.

804
00:45:57,360 --> 00:45:59,680
I really thought that's what I'd
really like to do.

805
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:05,160
And I knew this from my hanging
out in that at the Ashcast

806
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:08,560
newspaper that the way you get
into the outdoor page in most

807
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:10,840
newspapers was to the sports
department.

808
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:14,480
The sports editors typically
control the outdoor page.

809
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:18,840
They, they dictate how many, how
big the outdoor page was and how

810
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:22,640
much space they gave it.
And so I knew that's where I had

811
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:26,880
to get, get in front of sports
editors to get their attention.

812
00:46:27,240 --> 00:46:31,800
So I my early days, like when I
was still in college and then my

813
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:34,800
first two years at the newspaper
in Oshkosh, I worked in the

814
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:38,200
sports department and anyone who
knew me thought that's kind of

815
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:41,880
laughable because I my interest
in sports are basically the

816
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:46,120
Packers and Badger hockey.
I didn't, I played baseball as a

817
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:48,840
kid.
I wasn't too bad at it, but I

818
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:52,400
didn't know how to keep a box
score and or how to how to how

819
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:56,000
to score, play all things that
baseball nuts and all that

820
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:57,840
stuff.
I didn't know anything about

821
00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:02,640
basketball and but yet I thought
one good thing about journalism

822
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:07,120
school, it teaches you that if
you're a good reporter and you

823
00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:10,080
take your craft seriously, you
can cover anything.

824
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:12,400
At least, you know, get through
it.

825
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:16,360
And so, like daily newspapers,
you know, you get thrown in

826
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:19,400
almost any kind of story when
you walk and, you know, you

827
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:22,000
might think you know what you're
going to do that morning, but

828
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:23,760
you don't.
If something happens and off you

829
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:26,200
go on.
You're covering a fire, covering

830
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:29,280
a bad car accident.
Who knows what it might be.

831
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:32,920
So it's really a good training
and sports in the sports test

832
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:36,080
was really good training because
you spend your Friday nights

833
00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:39,440
taking box scores from high
school, local high schools and

834
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:42,120
writing, then quit writing up a
quick description of the game.

835
00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:46,120
And you do that over and over
again and you get pretty good at

836
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:51,040
that kind of stuff.
But I but I knew for the long

837
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:53,160
run I couldn't do do sports
writing for a living.

838
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:58,080
It just wasn't my passion, but I
knew if I kept keep pecking away

839
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:00,840
at this, they'll give me
occasional cracks in an outdoor

840
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:03,080
outdoor story.
And so that's what I started

841
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:06,000
doing.
But about a year or two into my

842
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:08,880
full time work, a dash crash.
They let me have the outdoor

843
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:10,640
page.
Well, then I went nuts.

844
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:16,160
Just spent I really gave them a
lot of free time making sure I

845
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:19,840
had good articles in the outdoor
page into my main job was

846
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:22,320
elsewhere.
I covered the school board down

847
00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:24,520
there and that kind of stuff.
And I covered because I went I

848
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:27,960
went from sports to to the local
school board and then I became

849
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:32,320
the weekend editor and had a few
real embarrassing moments doing

850
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:34,680
that.
One of my favorite stories that

851
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:38,880
I can tell you, Brad, was I was
on, I was on the desk the night

852
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:42,480
of the big stock market crash in
1987.

853
00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:46,680
And the AP wire, the Socio Press
wire used to come in on

854
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:48,920
different feeds into your
computer.

855
00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:52,680
And I was kind of new at the
jobs, so I didn't know there was

856
00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:58,440
one wire stream that came in
that had everything in it that I

857
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:01,080
didn't have to go through and
pick all these different streams

858
00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:04,240
coming in Somehow that wasn't
trained into me.

859
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:08,000
So I missed, I missed the stock
market crash.

860
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:12,120
It was like the one night I
never watched TV that night I

861
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:16,240
was in a hurry, sat down and got
working on the getting that

862
00:49:16,240 --> 00:49:21,000
newspaper out the next day.
And I always remember how I next

863
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:25,960
Saturday morning when the paper
came out, I remember walking

864
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:29,600
into the Menards in Oshkosh and
they had in those days they had

865
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:32,080
newspaper racks.
I remember walking past the

866
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:36,280
Milwaukee Journal, Milwaukee
Sentinel newspaper rack and big,

867
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:38,960
bold headlines about the stock
market, stock market crash.

868
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:45,520
And I thought, I'm going to be
fired today because I didn't

869
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:47,200
didn't have it in the paper.
Yeah.

870
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:51,240
And when I went to work I worked
on, I didn't get called.

871
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:54,440
My boss didn't call me.
But when I showed up for work

872
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:58,720
Tuesday morning, she called me
in their office and she knew I

873
00:49:58,720 --> 00:50:02,320
knew I'd messed up.
And she said what happened?

874
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:06,400
She was she was giving me the
chance to save my butt,

875
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:09,880
basically.
I told her I dismissed it.

876
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:12,000
I didn't try to lie my way out
of it.

877
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:15,320
And I said I missed it.
And I said I haven't slept.

878
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:16,680
I haven't slept for the last two
days.

879
00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:20,480
I felt so stupid, you know, and
then and so I described what

880
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:25,640
happened that night and where
she called in my, my other boss

881
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:30,480
and explained what happened.
And he said, don't you know that

882
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:34,320
if you do this and do that, that
feed will always be there with

883
00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:38,440
all the new, not just the ones I
was I was pulling down and

884
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:41,080
pulling stories off didn't have
the stock market crash, you

885
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:43,280
know.
So anyway, that was my my

886
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:45,080
roommate.
Well, that's all I thought.

887
00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:46,480
The biggest embarrassment in my
life.

888
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:48,520
Oh yeah.
For a for a career.

889
00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:53,080
Humongous, they at least, at
least they took the situation

890
00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:56,160
and probably reflected on it and
said, OK, we should have taught

891
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:02,120
where this comes from, you know?
And, and, and then there's a

892
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:04,280
fancy price.
I thought I I knew that right,

893
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:07,400
because they, they had given me
training, but for some reason I

894
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:09,160
didn't, didn't know that little
aspect of it.

895
00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:10,120
So.
You didn't get fired though.

896
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:15,120
No, no, I, I got chewed up
pretty good and just basically

897
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:18,880
made, made clear that, you know,
there's just some things you

898
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:20,680
don't do.
And one of the things you don't

899
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:25,120
do is you don't miss the Evening
News because in those days

900
00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:29,800
there's 33 news channels and I,
if I just watch the Evening News

901
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:34,440
like I had done every Friday
night until then, then that it

902
00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:36,440
didn't.
And even just probably just the

903
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:38,680
10 minutes, right, catch the
police cells if there's anything

904
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:41,720
you're going to have to.
Cover but but I think those kind

905
00:51:41,720 --> 00:51:46,160
of things, they're good
experience to live through and

906
00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:49,320
even losing a job, those kind of
things are good things to live

907
00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:53,200
through because you you learn
that you move on and you, you,

908
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:55,840
no one has time for it.
No one, no one wants to hear

909
00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:59,760
your sob stories and then then
when you get out of a situation

910
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:02,840
like missing the biggest story
of the year, basically, yeah,

911
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:07,520
you bear quite you have to try
to BS your way through that one.

912
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:10,800
Good luck.
I I I don't have that skill.

913
00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:15,200
Yeah, I lost a toenail off my
thing.

914
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:18,240
I had to go to the ER.
Yeah.

915
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:22,360
Oh, I feel that.
As a teacher, I feel that the

916
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:26,480
the stories crafted are great.
And that's I, I think it was, if

917
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:29,960
there's one piece of advice, I
always keep remind myself is

918
00:52:30,720 --> 00:52:33,680
don't make an excuse.
Yeah, just don't, you know,

919
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:39,240
because no one respects it.
And Ian, if it's true, it's just

920
00:52:39,240 --> 00:52:41,320
not going to land.
Probably, you know, is there's

921
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:43,200
just, you know, I think that's
one of those hard, hard

922
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:44,960
realities.
Life that doesn't matter what it

923
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:49,000
takes, you get the job done.
You get the job done, You start

924
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:50,320
shoveling and do it.
You know what?

925
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:53,960
It's yeah.
Yeah, or, you know, the, the

926
00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:57,360
flip side of the coin is you
decide that the job isn't worth

927
00:52:57,600 --> 00:53:00,760
the effort or it can't be done
because life happens.

928
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:02,240
You know, there's all stuff
around you.

929
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:06,400
But yeah, when when you say that
this is what you're going to do,

930
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:09,120
doesn't matter if there's a
great excuse or not, it still

931
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:10,720
doesn't get done at the end of
the day.

932
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:15,240
Yeah, and you, and a lot of it
does come down to your own

933
00:53:15,240 --> 00:53:19,480
individual talents and interests
and ethic and whatever it might

934
00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:24,480
be.
And you know, I, I, I just like

935
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:28,040
to think that if we all give it
our best shot every moment we

936
00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:32,600
have that it will make a
difference at some point.

937
00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:36,640
And I, I never had in my career,
I've never had a five year plan.

938
00:53:37,240 --> 00:53:38,640
Those can I hear those kind of
things.

939
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:42,280
I think God, you know, the only
plan I've ever had is that you

940
00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:45,280
have to be ready when the door
opens to go through it.

941
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:48,160
And so the only thing you do is
just come into work every day

942
00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:51,200
and work your butt off.
Give that person whoever is

943
00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:55,600
paying you, you know they're
what they're what the full

944
00:53:55,600 --> 00:53:57,960
worth.
And if it's if it's beyond what

945
00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:00,760
they're paying you is probably
go that direction and

946
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:03,640
underperform.
You know, these I'm gonna, I'm

947
00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:06,720
gonna had a freelance guy one
time told me that if they pay

948
00:54:06,720 --> 00:54:09,920
him $200, they get a $200
article.

949
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:12,280
If they pay them $500, they get
a $500 article.

950
00:54:12,760 --> 00:54:14,200
And I always think that's too
much thinking.

951
00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:16,360
Just give me your best shot
every time, you know?

952
00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:20,360
Yeah, and then the the next one
ends up being $1000 article

953
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:22,920
because you did.
Yeah, yeah, because you know,

954
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:24,720
again, you don't know who's
reading it.

955
00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:28,880
It could be your next employer
and they might remember that one

956
00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:32,440
shoddy piece of writing you did
one time, and they'll never

957
00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:34,120
forget that.
That I kind of had a good

958
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:36,800
impression of him until I read
that, you know, You know, so.

959
00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:40,040
Yeah.
How does what does that look

960
00:54:40,040 --> 00:54:43,040
like as a writer?
Because I was listening to, I

961
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:45,640
can't remember who the interview
was with recently.

962
00:54:45,640 --> 00:54:47,640
I feel like it was a Rogan
episode, but I can't remember

963
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:51,120
the person.
But he was a writer and I

964
00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:54,920
vividly remember him saying that
the Max he can write is about 3

965
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:55,880
hours a day.
Wow.

966
00:54:56,320 --> 00:55:00,960
And and then the rest of his
day, what like talking about

967
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:02,920
what putting intention on your
job.

968
00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:08,080
He would purposely do things in
his life that he knew would

969
00:55:08,240 --> 00:55:12,400
breed creativity from him for
the other five hours, because

970
00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:15,000
three hours a day you got a
bunch of time to fill.

971
00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:18,960
But he would intentionally do
things other than right because

972
00:55:18,960 --> 00:55:21,920
it he knew it would recharge his
creative batteries.

973
00:55:22,240 --> 00:55:25,480
So what is what is working hard
quote UN quote look like for you

974
00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:27,440
as a writer?
Well, that, that, that, that to

975
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:30,120
me is always interesting because
there are different ways,

976
00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:34,800
different disciplines and
writing that are so, so

977
00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:36,640
different.
Like when it comes to real

978
00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:44,880
creativity, I think my one of my
stories I always, always think

979
00:55:44,880 --> 00:55:49,640
is more indicative of a
newspaper guy's approach is do

980
00:55:49,640 --> 00:55:53,240
you remember Andy Rooney?
He's he was he was on CBS for

981
00:55:53,240 --> 00:55:55,320
many years.
Yeah, he gets his little

982
00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:57,520
commenters at the very end of 60
Minutes.

983
00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:00,880
But his background was
newspaper, newspaper writing

984
00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:03,240
journalism.
You know, he was a correspondent

985
00:56:03,240 --> 00:56:07,320
and Stars in Stripes during
World War 2A real accomplished A

986
00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:09,720
reporter, that guy.
Remember him?

987
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:12,880
I remember him saying at 60
minutes one time how the average

988
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:15,440
or maybe he wrote, maybe it was
in this column because he wrote,

989
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:18,000
he also wrote a newspaper column
for, for decades.

990
00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:21,840
But at some point he he wrote
this column, I think, I think it

991
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:26,880
was a column where he said the
typical news story goes like

992
00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:29,280
this.
A reporter shows up for work.

993
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:33,000
He's walking past the editor's
desk and editor says, hey, I

994
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:35,680
have an 8 inch hole to fill on
Page 3 on.

995
00:56:35,680 --> 00:56:39,200
Give me, give me 8 inches on
last night's school board

996
00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:42,280
meeting, for example, he says.
And that doesn't have to be very

997
00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:46,040
good.
Just fill that hole, you know,

998
00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:50,120
and, and that's why it's, it's
an expression now that's kind of

999
00:56:50,120 --> 00:56:53,400
lost in time, you know, filling
the hole, you know, and that's

1000
00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:55,960
always one of my little things
is don't just fill the hole,

1001
00:56:56,400 --> 00:56:59,840
make it good, you know, make it
something that's worthwhile and

1002
00:56:59,840 --> 00:57:02,920
that it can be clipped out and
put it on a refrigerator.

1003
00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:05,320
Maybe, you know, you know,
people do that kind of stuff.

1004
00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:07,760
They always clip out.
That's always a high compliment

1005
00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:10,480
for me.
If I'd walk into some building

1006
00:57:11,240 --> 00:57:15,320
in the DNR and sees somebody
posted my column and some tacked

1007
00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:19,280
it to their cubicle, you know
that that was a mean.

1008
00:57:19,280 --> 00:57:22,000
What higher price can you have?
Yeah, we're going up and then

1009
00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:25,520
deer shack some place and find a
small crinkles up deer and deer

1010
00:57:25,520 --> 00:57:29,280
hunting magazine article stuck
on the on the wall.

1011
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:34,480
And my friend Doug Durin down in
southwestern Wisconsin, you walk

1012
00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:37,440
in his farmhouse.
There's, there's lots of the old

1013
00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:41,400
Green Bay Press Gazette pages,
you know, stuck to his wall,

1014
00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:43,960
'cause I think his, I think his
sister lives up in this region.

1015
00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:47,520
So she'd see these newspaper
pages for him when I write about

1016
00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:50,880
hunting down there.
And so that, that for me was a

1017
00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:54,520
big, that's still a high
compliment into my walk into

1018
00:57:55,000 --> 00:57:59,160
Doug's, you know, farmhouse and
see and see those things still

1019
00:57:59,160 --> 00:58:01,880
hang in there from, you know, 15
years ago.

1020
00:58:02,040 --> 00:58:04,000
That's I, I, I take pride in
that.

1021
00:58:04,000 --> 00:58:08,640
But to get back to your, your
question, one thing great about

1022
00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:11,880
newspapers and that that
background was you just knew

1023
00:58:11,880 --> 00:58:15,440
there's no time for writer's
block and you had to crank up

1024
00:58:15,440 --> 00:58:17,720
something before 11 O clock in
the morning and lose your job.

1025
00:58:17,720 --> 00:58:21,960
Basically, if you, if you fail
and don't deliver, you're not

1026
00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:25,040
going to be there very long.
So you, you, it's funny how when

1027
00:58:25,040 --> 00:58:29,200
there's a gun to your head, you
will produce, you produce, you

1028
00:58:29,560 --> 00:58:32,360
know, and, and if you can't,
you're not going to last long in

1029
00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:34,000
newspapers.
And a lot of people don't.

1030
00:58:34,040 --> 00:58:36,880
A lot of people didn't, I mean,
they learned in, in college that

1031
00:58:36,880 --> 00:58:40,120
they, that this wasn't for them.
They were the more, I think,

1032
00:58:40,920 --> 00:58:43,280
more creative type writers and
stuff.

1033
00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:46,600
They don't, they don't, I don't
work well in that environment.

1034
00:58:46,600 --> 00:58:48,920
But then I think I know my
limitations.

1035
00:58:48,920 --> 00:58:53,640
I, I can't write fiction and I,
I can, I think I do pretty good

1036
00:58:53,680 --> 00:58:56,880
writing, reporting on stuff and
analyzing stuff.

1037
00:58:57,480 --> 00:58:59,440
And, but that's not really on
creative writing.

1038
00:58:59,440 --> 00:59:02,960
But I think too, I think where
my creativity comes in, if there

1039
00:59:02,960 --> 00:59:08,120
is any, is that I like to think
that I write clearly and, and

1040
00:59:08,120 --> 00:59:09,760
that's easy to follow my
writing.

1041
00:59:10,240 --> 00:59:14,440
And if I I, I, I remember
reading one time that this nun

1042
00:59:14,440 --> 00:59:19,360
used to teach writing and that
when I clap one of her comments,

1043
00:59:19,680 --> 00:59:23,800
I'll never forget her saying, if
you have to read a sentence more

1044
00:59:23,800 --> 00:59:26,880
than once to understand it, it's
not a good sentence.

1045
00:59:27,880 --> 00:59:29,520
Yeah.
And that's when I read something

1046
00:59:29,520 --> 00:59:33,640
is wonderful, things like
Faulkner Road or something.

1047
00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:37,800
I think I can't follow this.
Word mosaics, yeah.

1048
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:40,240
I can't follow it.
So I think I'm just not smart

1049
00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:41,600
enough to follow that kind of
writing.

1050
00:59:41,960 --> 00:59:44,760
And so therefore I would say I
can't write like that.

1051
00:59:45,240 --> 00:59:48,640
And, and nothing.
There's a lot, not many people

1052
00:59:48,640 --> 00:59:50,480
out there.
You can probably read it either.

1053
00:59:50,480 --> 00:59:54,040
So yeah.
Yeah, funny story about Doug.

1054
00:59:54,040 --> 00:59:58,240
I I had a day scheduled to Doug
to come on the podcast and he

1055
00:59:58,240 --> 01:00:01,640
thought it was going to be a
virtual interview, so I said I

1056
01:00:01,640 --> 01:00:03,920
only do in person, man.
So we're going to schedule it

1057
01:00:03,920 --> 01:00:06,960
down the road, sure.
But yeah, I'm hoping to have a

1058
01:00:07,160 --> 01:00:09,000
chat with him too.
God.

1059
01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:11,680
He's a former history teacher.
Know if you knew that?

1060
01:00:11,720 --> 01:00:14,200
No, I didn't know that.
You taught history years ago.

1061
01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:15,920
OK.
So that's his back.

1062
01:00:16,560 --> 01:00:18,600
Maybe that'll be the extra
carrot I dangle.

1063
01:00:18,600 --> 01:00:21,200
I got to get him to drive the,
you know, the four hours over,

1064
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:24,720
right?
But those kind of things are all

1065
01:00:24,720 --> 01:00:26,360
those little human connections
like that.

1066
01:00:26,480 --> 01:00:28,960
Yeah.
But yeah, I, I listened.

1067
01:00:29,240 --> 01:00:33,440
I like to listen to like I'm.
I'm on the Meat Eater podcast.

1068
01:00:33,640 --> 01:00:35,520
Steve has a lot of book authors.
Yeah.

1069
01:00:35,800 --> 01:00:39,320
And, and I always think I've
never written that kind of book,

1070
01:00:39,320 --> 01:00:42,040
you know where I mean, I've
written a couple, I've written 1

1071
01:00:42,400 --> 01:00:47,160
hunting book where I basically
did most the writing for a guy

1072
01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:50,200
and it was his name on the book
and my name, you know?

1073
01:00:50,520 --> 01:00:52,880
You're a ghost writer, Yeah.
It was more or less a ghost

1074
01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:56,040
writer.
I mean, so I've done that.

1075
01:00:56,280 --> 01:01:00,960
I've done some compilations and
but my latest complimation at

1076
01:01:00,960 --> 01:01:05,400
compilation I did was just for
some family members of my my

1077
01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:08,680
late friend Tom Haberline.
I haunted from his deer shack

1078
01:01:08,680 --> 01:01:13,120
for like 25 years almost.
So I wrote a lot of columns

1079
01:01:13,800 --> 01:01:17,520
based on the hunter on there or
something that Everline said

1080
01:01:17,520 --> 01:01:19,040
that inspired me to write
something.

1081
01:01:19,040 --> 01:01:24,040
And so I had a lot of articles I
wrote about about the shack,

1082
01:01:24,200 --> 01:01:27,480
about the hunting there and
about Heberline and his ideas

1083
01:01:27,480 --> 01:01:32,200
and stuff that I when he died,
I, we actually buried him.

1084
01:01:32,920 --> 01:01:36,040
We did a green burial.
So I wrote about that, you know,

1085
01:01:36,360 --> 01:01:39,080
burying this kind of middle of
winter up and up outside the

1086
01:01:39,080 --> 01:01:43,960
shack up in Aston County.
And you know, it's it's it's an

1087
01:01:43,960 --> 01:01:47,720
interesting experience and I
hope I conveyed that in my

1088
01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:50,440
article.
And except, but because I I do,

1089
01:01:50,440 --> 01:01:53,360
it's one thing that when it
comes to creativity and stuff,

1090
01:01:53,360 --> 01:01:56,040
and I could go about doing it.
The one thing I do know about,

1091
01:01:56,040 --> 01:02:00,320
I'm writing good strong stuff is
that if you got to write it

1092
01:02:00,320 --> 01:02:03,720
while it's fresh, while you're
still hurting, you know, and you

1093
01:02:03,720 --> 01:02:06,520
need to have a little
reflection, just a couple days

1094
01:02:06,520 --> 01:02:08,080
if you have it, if you have that
luxury.

1095
01:02:08,080 --> 01:02:11,480
But in newspaper writing
especially, which is kind of

1096
01:02:11,480 --> 01:02:15,000
going by the wayside, there was
never time for reflection.

1097
01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:18,720
And I always respect these guys
who can cover a Packer game,

1098
01:02:18,720 --> 01:02:21,840
whatever might be, and crank out
something, a deadline that's

1099
01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:24,360
actually readable the next
morning.

1100
01:02:24,360 --> 01:02:27,200
You know, it's, it's not, not
many people can do that.

1101
01:02:27,800 --> 01:02:32,000
It's I and I, I just really try
to respect the people's talents,

1102
01:02:32,000 --> 01:02:33,800
you know, and not get jealous of
them.

1103
01:02:34,040 --> 01:02:37,160
Just respect what they do and
they can do it better than I

1104
01:02:37,160 --> 01:02:40,000
can.
And like in the, this is a

1105
01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:45,160
tangent, but in the hunting and
fishing world, there's a lot of,

1106
01:02:46,160 --> 01:02:49,040
lot of competitive flexing that
goes on.

1107
01:02:49,560 --> 01:02:53,520
Guys really like to, if, if you
shoot a big buck, you're going

1108
01:02:53,520 --> 01:02:58,040
to have a ton of critics
backstabbing you saying, you

1109
01:02:58,040 --> 01:03:00,680
know, geez, you know, he didn't
do that or he did something

1110
01:03:00,680 --> 01:03:04,000
wrong and always find some way
to try and drag you down.

1111
01:03:04,000 --> 01:03:07,160
You catch a big fish and always,
God, that's a lot petty stuff

1112
01:03:07,160 --> 01:03:12,720
that goes on.
And I honestly, I've just never

1113
01:03:12,720 --> 01:03:16,800
really cared.
I'd, I'd go fishing with guys

1114
01:03:17,440 --> 01:03:20,600
And I, I think it's because I
had that journalism background

1115
01:03:21,200 --> 01:03:24,520
and being in the boats with a
lot of different fishermen and

1116
01:03:24,520 --> 01:03:27,640
hunting from a lot of different
deer camps over the years.

1117
01:03:28,160 --> 01:03:31,320
You realize real quickly there's
a lot of guys out there who are

1118
01:03:31,320 --> 01:03:34,800
much better hunters and much
better anglers than I'll ever

1119
01:03:34,800 --> 01:03:37,280
be.
And I don't have a problem with

1120
01:03:37,280 --> 01:03:40,600
this.
Just realize when I get around

1121
01:03:40,600 --> 01:03:42,800
them, I think, boy, this is
their passion.

1122
01:03:43,080 --> 01:03:46,000
They're good at it.
I mean, they, they out fish me

1123
01:03:46,000 --> 01:03:48,280
any, any way you can think of,
they'll out fish me.

1124
01:03:49,000 --> 01:03:52,600
And I still prove to myself
pretty regularly, you know, keep

1125
01:03:52,600 --> 01:03:56,560
my wife out fishing and friend
who guides will take us fishing

1126
01:03:56,560 --> 01:04:01,600
out in this area and we'll go
back later in that day, fish

1127
01:04:01,600 --> 01:04:06,480
those same spots and strike out,
you know, or not, that's his

1128
01:04:06,480 --> 01:04:09,320
money, whoever might be at.
But it is you start realizing

1129
01:04:09,320 --> 01:04:12,200
and appreciating when we all
have our talents.

1130
01:04:13,000 --> 01:04:18,240
And this guy that's that's his
his primary thing in life, I

1131
01:04:18,240 --> 01:04:20,760
think sometimes is fishing or
hunting.

1132
01:04:20,760 --> 01:04:24,080
And and it's dominates their
their world.

1133
01:04:24,400 --> 01:04:26,400
Yeah.
And and mine, I think I've tried

1134
01:04:26,400 --> 01:04:29,440
to relay Dom.
I think my thing that dominates

1135
01:04:29,440 --> 01:04:31,600
my world is my my reporting and
writing.

1136
01:04:32,640 --> 01:04:36,200
And I'm still doing it.
I could have retired now, you

1137
01:04:36,200 --> 01:04:39,800
know, five years ago and it's
not I'm not.

1138
01:04:40,640 --> 01:04:43,880
But I find interesting these
days, though, as I realize I'm

1139
01:04:43,880 --> 01:04:47,600
not as productive as I was 510
and 15 years ago.

1140
01:04:47,880 --> 01:04:49,680
Sure.
You know, I'm, I've slowed down

1141
01:04:50,000 --> 01:04:53,240
and I think it's because I think
it's because I'm just slowing

1142
01:04:53,240 --> 01:04:57,600
down, you know, physically and
mentally and, you know, time's

1143
01:04:57,600 --> 01:04:59,360
creeping up on me now.
Sure.

1144
01:04:59,400 --> 01:05:02,600
And I again, though I don't
dwell on it.

1145
01:05:02,600 --> 01:05:04,720
I just think this is life, you
know?

1146
01:05:04,720 --> 01:05:07,000
And I, I try, I keep doing what
I'm doing.

1147
01:05:07,000 --> 01:05:10,480
And yeah, I.
Well, motivation probably shifts

1148
01:05:10,480 --> 01:05:13,800
a little bit too, right, Because
it, it comes to a point when

1149
01:05:13,800 --> 01:05:17,280
you, there's, there's a, a mind
barrier that you cross there

1150
01:05:17,280 --> 01:05:19,280
when you're doing it for you and
not for anybody else.

1151
01:05:19,480 --> 01:05:21,000
And that changes your
motivation.

1152
01:05:21,000 --> 01:05:24,120
Yeah, you know, it's, it's not
paying the health insurance,

1153
01:05:24,120 --> 01:05:26,240
it's not doing this.
You do it because you care about

1154
01:05:26,240 --> 01:05:27,680
the product.
And that's a whole different

1155
01:05:27,680 --> 01:05:28,160
ball.
Game yeah.

1156
01:05:28,440 --> 01:05:33,000
And I and I still the one thing
that's constant is that desire

1157
01:05:33,240 --> 01:05:36,200
to do it right.
Do it do it do the best chance

1158
01:05:36,200 --> 01:05:40,000
of best shot every time.
And I, I think my problem so

1159
01:05:40,000 --> 01:05:42,600
much these days is I get into
AI, get into a column.

1160
01:05:42,920 --> 01:05:47,120
I I get into a article for like
for for meat eater and I want to

1161
01:05:47,120 --> 01:05:49,320
be good.
You know, and I.

1162
01:05:49,320 --> 01:05:53,560
And at the same time I'm trying
to tell myself, you know, you've

1163
01:05:53,560 --> 01:05:56,600
earned some evenings off.
Yeah, you've earned some

1164
01:05:56,600 --> 01:05:58,720
weekends off because, you know,
from for decades.

1165
01:05:58,720 --> 01:06:01,480
I didn't take money much time
off.

1166
01:06:01,720 --> 01:06:04,600
You know, I really, I really
cranked it for for years,

1167
01:06:04,840 --> 01:06:09,080
especially as a freelancer and
also as a full timer at as a

1168
01:06:09,080 --> 01:06:12,240
staff magazines and newspapers,
because I always had a

1169
01:06:12,240 --> 01:06:15,000
tremendous.
I always had a work ethic and I

1170
01:06:15,000 --> 01:06:17,800
still do.
I I still, I still think there's

1171
01:06:17,800 --> 01:06:20,280
value in the work ethic, you
know, real value.

1172
01:06:20,640 --> 01:06:26,000
And people who don't have that
and they and they say, well, you

1173
01:06:26,000 --> 01:06:29,120
know, my family's more important
to this more important than I.

1174
01:06:29,560 --> 01:06:31,720
My view is always.
Well, I'm hope.

1175
01:06:32,240 --> 01:06:34,480
I hope I'm teaching my kids a
work ethic too.

1176
01:06:34,880 --> 01:06:36,760
You know that nothing, nothing
comes easy.

1177
01:06:37,360 --> 01:06:42,960
And if it comes easy, while you
may you have your your maybe you

1178
01:06:42,960 --> 01:06:46,880
have the means we just don't
have to maybe maybe come from a

1179
01:06:46,880 --> 01:06:49,600
wealthy family.
You inherited something.

1180
01:06:50,360 --> 01:06:53,160
That's not something that I I
know of anything of personally.

1181
01:06:53,160 --> 01:06:55,080
Got lucky, yeah?
Yeah, got lucky.

1182
01:06:55,200 --> 01:06:59,680
I spend a lot of time thinking
about that because I live on

1183
01:06:59,680 --> 01:07:02,600
both sides of the aisle in in
that realm.

1184
01:07:02,680 --> 01:07:09,480
I I'm so driven at times to a
detriment, right?

1185
01:07:09,480 --> 01:07:11,440
Like it's just like.
I I relate.

1186
01:07:11,600 --> 01:07:13,440
Yeah.
I don't take the time to reflect

1187
01:07:13,440 --> 01:07:17,280
and probably make some decisions
that wouldn't have been made if

1188
01:07:17,280 --> 01:07:19,600
I would have been a bit more
patient or something like that.

1189
01:07:19,600 --> 01:07:24,000
But I constantly am pushing the
ball forward at the same time.

1190
01:07:24,000 --> 01:07:25,600
And this really changed when I
became a dad.

1191
01:07:25,600 --> 01:07:28,680
The the family thing is what
shifted my mind a little bit

1192
01:07:29,320 --> 01:07:36,000
where like I try to collide the
two worlds when I can to provide

1193
01:07:36,000 --> 01:07:38,800
that image of and I constant my
little dude's only four and a

1194
01:07:38,800 --> 01:07:41,360
half.
So like he's getting used to

1195
01:07:41,360 --> 01:07:45,320
taking in the world, but I try
to instill these things about

1196
01:07:45,320 --> 01:07:47,880
like right now he's in this big
go fish thing.

1197
01:07:47,880 --> 01:07:50,640
He's got this go fish pack of
cards he loves and he could play

1198
01:07:50,640 --> 01:07:54,480
it all day long.
So immediately when I come home

1199
01:07:54,480 --> 01:07:57,400
from work or something, it's
daddy, can we play?

1200
01:07:57,440 --> 01:08:00,240
Can you play with me?
And sometimes it's yes,

1201
01:08:00,240 --> 01:08:02,320
sometimes it's no.
But when it's no, it's the

1202
01:08:02,320 --> 01:08:05,680
conversation of, OK, all these
other things have to happen in

1203
01:08:05,680 --> 01:08:07,480
life too, buddy, and there's
stuff to do.

1204
01:08:07,600 --> 01:08:10,640
So I really want to see you.
I know we haven't seen each

1205
01:08:10,640 --> 01:08:12,920
other all day.
Will you come cook dinner with

1206
01:08:12,920 --> 01:08:15,000
me?
And then we do something

1207
01:08:15,000 --> 01:08:16,960
together and shift the frame?
Very good.

1208
01:08:17,279 --> 01:08:24,279
So I wrestle with this because
it's I've grown to the point

1209
01:08:24,319 --> 01:08:27,560
where, and I don't know if
groan's even the right word.

1210
01:08:27,560 --> 01:08:29,680
I've gotten to the point.
But like kind of where I sit

1211
01:08:29,680 --> 01:08:35,720
today is I just try to be really
cognizant of where I put my

1212
01:08:35,720 --> 01:08:38,319
attention.
And then wherever I make that

1213
01:08:38,319 --> 01:08:43,600
decision to that gets it.
And it gets that same drive,

1214
01:08:43,600 --> 01:08:47,279
that same motivation that comes
from, oh, I'm doing this to make

1215
01:08:47,279 --> 01:08:49,680
a dollar or I'm doing this to
make a difference.

1216
01:08:50,479 --> 01:08:52,880
It it it gets the same
motivation.

1217
01:08:52,920 --> 01:08:58,040
So the work, like the intention
or motivation around it doesn't

1218
01:08:58,040 --> 01:09:00,560
change throughout the day.
It's like I wake up, I wake up

1219
01:09:00,560 --> 01:09:02,760
like a golden retriever, man.
I'm I'm ready to go in the

1220
01:09:02,760 --> 01:09:05,000
morning.
So from when I wake up in the

1221
01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:08,479
morning to the time that I give
myself an hour before bed to

1222
01:09:08,479 --> 01:09:12,439
wind down, anything that I
decide to do in that is going to

1223
01:09:12,439 --> 01:09:18,640
get that same tenacity, that
same thing, but I've, I've and

1224
01:09:18,640 --> 01:09:20,840
I'm still not there.
I don't, I don't know how to

1225
01:09:20,840 --> 01:09:24,279
identify the areas correctly.
You know what I mean?

1226
01:09:24,279 --> 01:09:27,200
Like up or or like
proportionately.

1227
01:09:27,720 --> 01:09:29,960
And I work on it constantly.
I don't know, it's something

1228
01:09:29,960 --> 01:09:34,279
that's on my mind a lot.
Yeah, I like, I know my

1229
01:09:34,279 --> 01:09:35,880
daughters would.
I have three daughters.

1230
01:09:35,960 --> 01:09:41,960
They're all like basically late
30s, early 40s now and they have

1231
01:09:41,960 --> 01:09:47,000
their own kids and I have 9
grandkids and I they, they

1232
01:09:47,000 --> 01:09:51,000
parent differently from what?
From the way my wife and I

1233
01:09:51,000 --> 01:09:56,440
parented, but I'd like to think
that I, I was, I was strict as a

1234
01:09:56,440 --> 01:10:00,840
parent with their kids, but I
like to think they, they always

1235
01:10:00,840 --> 01:10:03,360
knew.
They always knew I loved them.

1236
01:10:03,360 --> 01:10:07,400
I don't think I if they'd ever
doubted that I'd be because I'd

1237
01:10:07,400 --> 01:10:11,000
be hurt and surprised to hear
that they sometimes wondered

1238
01:10:11,000 --> 01:10:13,760
about that because I boy, I
loved them.

1239
01:10:13,840 --> 01:10:17,880
I, I loved having kids around
when the hardest moments for my

1240
01:10:17,880 --> 01:10:24,560
life was when our oldest
daughter got to be once the high

1241
01:10:24,560 --> 01:10:27,400
school graduation.
And it wasn't just the fact that

1242
01:10:27,400 --> 01:10:30,280
she individually was going off
to college.

1243
01:10:30,280 --> 01:10:34,720
Now graduating high school soon
off to college is the idea that

1244
01:10:35,440 --> 01:10:37,360
this part of my life is now
winding down.

1245
01:10:37,560 --> 01:10:39,040
You know, next year it'll be
Ellie.

1246
01:10:39,680 --> 01:10:42,680
Two years after that will be
Carson and then all three of

1247
01:10:42,680 --> 01:10:45,680
them be gone.
And just that awareness that all

1248
01:10:45,680 --> 01:10:51,120
sudden that big part of my life
that so on so vitally important

1249
01:10:51,520 --> 01:10:53,600
and so much something I really
loved.

1250
01:10:53,840 --> 01:10:56,880
I loved having the kids around.
I mean, just they might not have

1251
01:10:56,880 --> 01:10:59,680
thought that some days, but I
really, yeah, man, I loved it.

1252
01:10:59,720 --> 01:11:03,080
I, I just, it was fun.
I get, I can still picture some

1253
01:11:03,080 --> 01:11:06,960
little things in my head.
Images of them walking down the

1254
01:11:06,960 --> 01:11:10,000
driveway in the winter, braced
against the snow.

1255
01:11:11,280 --> 01:11:13,760
They go off the go off the
school bus, you know, anything.

1256
01:11:14,040 --> 01:11:16,200
They're just little kids, you
know, basically.

1257
01:11:16,440 --> 01:11:18,480
And now they're young, you know,
young mothers.

1258
01:11:18,480 --> 01:11:23,640
And but I, but I, I think, I
think as, as, as people, we

1259
01:11:23,640 --> 01:11:27,640
never stop struggling with all
these different conflicts and

1260
01:11:27,640 --> 01:11:31,920
obligations we have.
So let me ask you this as a

1261
01:11:31,920 --> 01:11:37,280
person who will be in your seat
in 14 years, that's why I

1262
01:11:37,280 --> 01:11:41,200
struggle with with where to put
the time and energy because I

1263
01:11:41,200 --> 01:11:42,840
know I'm going to have that
feeling someday.

1264
01:11:43,200 --> 01:11:48,600
I I, I have it sometimes already
right where like the little in

1265
01:11:48,600 --> 01:11:52,720
like nuances of what they do
happens for a while and then

1266
01:11:52,720 --> 01:11:54,280
it's gone yeah, it's gone
forever.

1267
01:11:54,280 --> 01:11:58,240
So I, I feel it already and I
get a wave of emotion every

1268
01:11:58,280 --> 01:12:05,560
time.
And let's put it plainly like

1269
01:12:05,560 --> 01:12:11,440
this, if you looked back on it
being driven like that and

1270
01:12:11,440 --> 01:12:14,440
working a lot, would you change
any?

1271
01:12:15,040 --> 01:12:18,920
Probably not.
Yeah, probably not when I hear

1272
01:12:20,480 --> 01:12:22,480
one.
I used to hear a lot people

1273
01:12:22,480 --> 01:12:25,360
would say to me, you know, when
you end up on your deathbed

1274
01:12:25,360 --> 01:12:28,640
someday, you're not going to
say, Gee, I wish I would have

1275
01:12:28,640 --> 01:12:31,880
worked a lot harder.
Yeah, that kind of sentiment.

1276
01:12:31,880 --> 01:12:33,360
Nothing.
I don't know.

1277
01:12:33,360 --> 01:12:37,640
I might have.
I might because.

1278
01:12:38,120 --> 01:12:40,880
Because I think.
I think it's because I don't, I,

1279
01:12:40,880 --> 01:12:45,800
I, I'm so lucky, you know, I, I
have a career based on something

1280
01:12:45,800 --> 01:12:48,880
that just fits me naturally.
You know, it wasn't like, like I

1281
01:12:48,880 --> 01:12:53,680
said earlier, I wasn't something
I ever felt myself being pulled

1282
01:12:53,680 --> 01:12:55,880
in that direction.
I didn't see it coming.

1283
01:12:56,400 --> 01:12:57,960
I was the last person to see it
coming.

1284
01:12:58,400 --> 01:13:01,400
But once I was in it, it was
never easy.

1285
01:13:01,400 --> 01:13:03,480
I never found it.
I never found it easy.

1286
01:13:04,680 --> 01:13:07,360
But I do do find that's kind of
who I am.

1287
01:13:08,040 --> 01:13:13,320
You know, I, I was just a great
line that John Prine that the

1288
01:13:13,920 --> 01:13:16,600
singer-songwriter had of many,
many great lines.

1289
01:13:16,600 --> 01:13:20,960
But he has this one flying.
I guess I have to work it out in

1290
01:13:20,960 --> 01:13:22,600
a song.
You know, that he has these

1291
01:13:22,600 --> 01:13:25,040
thoughts, he's going to work him
out in a song.

1292
01:13:25,640 --> 01:13:27,920
And I think that's kind of the
way I am about writing.

1293
01:13:27,920 --> 01:13:30,760
I think I kind of think I know
about something.

1294
01:13:31,160 --> 01:13:36,000
I have a decent feel for it, but
I have to work this one out, you

1295
01:13:36,000 --> 01:13:39,040
know, and I don't realize know
what I really think about a

1296
01:13:39,040 --> 01:13:42,560
certain issue until I actually
sit down and write it.

1297
01:13:43,280 --> 01:13:47,320
And then by time does a few
hours go by, I have much better

1298
01:13:47,320 --> 01:13:49,480
feel for.
OK, I guess that's what I think

1299
01:13:49,480 --> 01:13:51,160
about it.
You know that.

1300
01:13:51,160 --> 01:13:53,920
But man, going into it, you
don't always know that, that.

1301
01:13:53,920 --> 01:13:58,360
But I at least I'd like to think
that I don't just throw stuff

1302
01:13:58,360 --> 01:14:00,520
out there before I think about
it.

1303
01:14:00,680 --> 01:14:04,960
Yeah, I, I think when you do
that too often, you come across

1304
01:14:04,960 --> 01:14:08,800
as a, as ABS Yep, BS, Sir.
And I don't want that.

1305
01:14:09,520 --> 01:14:12,840
And then because I, I think
because I, I, I one thing I

1306
01:14:12,840 --> 01:14:16,400
realized, really realized about
myself is I'm not the smartest

1307
01:14:16,400 --> 01:14:18,720
guy in the room.
I'm seldom the smartest guy in

1308
01:14:18,720 --> 01:14:21,360
the room.
I've I've worked a lot of people

1309
01:14:21,360 --> 01:14:24,400
in my life, interviewed a lot of
people in my life, realized

1310
01:14:24,400 --> 01:14:30,280
these are really smart people
that just catch things much

1311
01:14:30,280 --> 01:14:32,400
faster than I do.
Yeah, the other, but they have

1312
01:14:32,400 --> 01:14:34,640
their weaknesses too, because
everyone does.

1313
01:14:35,200 --> 01:14:37,240
But you realize there's some
people who just really are

1314
01:14:37,240 --> 01:14:43,360
smarter than us.
I to go back to on John Kennedy

1315
01:14:44,760 --> 01:14:47,480
when I hear some of the things
that he's just set off the cuff

1316
01:14:48,680 --> 01:14:50,720
and his brother Robert the
things they could see off the

1317
01:14:50,720 --> 01:14:53,600
cuff in front of a big room of
people.

1318
01:14:54,600 --> 01:14:58,400
I think these are smart people.
I don't think I can I don't

1319
01:14:58,400 --> 01:15:01,640
think I can match that.
You know, amazed because they

1320
01:15:01,640 --> 01:15:06,240
they had came from money and had
experiences we don't have like

1321
01:15:06,280 --> 01:15:10,800
on they would go like John can
go off and visit part different

1322
01:15:10,800 --> 01:15:14,120
parts of the world when he was a
young man and learned these

1323
01:15:14,120 --> 01:15:16,760
different cultures and what
matters to them, learn some more

1324
01:15:16,760 --> 01:15:20,120
of their histories.
And then I think he, I think he

1325
01:15:20,120 --> 01:15:23,680
and his brother Robert both
times and went went around parts

1326
01:15:23,680 --> 01:15:28,360
of the world with this Douglas
at the great justice in that

1327
01:15:28,360 --> 01:15:30,840
era.
You can imagine how many of us

1328
01:15:31,120 --> 01:15:35,560
have an opportunity to to tour
with a Supreme Court Justice

1329
01:15:35,600 --> 01:15:37,480
experience.
That's nothing that most of us

1330
01:15:37,480 --> 01:15:40,640
have, you know, and it's why.
So again, I, I try to think,

1331
01:15:40,640 --> 01:15:44,800
well, I don't have that
background, but I do have what

1332
01:15:44,800 --> 01:15:48,400
I, what I have and I'm, I think
I've capitalized and, and

1333
01:15:48,400 --> 01:15:51,520
profited from the, the few
talents I have.

1334
01:15:51,840 --> 01:15:53,960
Control what you can.
Control, right, right.

1335
01:15:54,000 --> 01:15:58,320
And just not be, you know, the,
the, the biggest thing that I

1336
01:15:58,320 --> 01:16:02,880
see so many people hanging up on
and it preoccupies the way they

1337
01:16:02,880 --> 01:16:07,400
go through life is envy, envy
what other people have and

1338
01:16:07,400 --> 01:16:09,280
they're jealous of what other
people have.

1339
01:16:10,040 --> 01:16:14,840
I think that is so destructive.
And yeah, I always think if you

1340
01:16:14,840 --> 01:16:18,560
just put a little time in the
working on these things you can

1341
01:16:18,560 --> 01:16:22,400
control and the things that
really do interest you, you'd be

1342
01:16:22,400 --> 01:16:27,000
so much happier just going down
working for a political campaign

1343
01:16:27,000 --> 01:16:30,120
if you're don't like the way our
world is going right now.

1344
01:16:30,720 --> 01:16:33,720
But do something construct like
go down and hand out leaflets or

1345
01:16:34,400 --> 01:16:36,120
do something at campaign
headquarters.

1346
01:16:36,120 --> 01:16:40,200
Do something to to make yourself
useful, you know, not just to

1347
01:16:40,200 --> 01:16:43,600
yourself, but to other people.
Yeah, instead of getting stuck

1348
01:16:43,600 --> 01:16:46,120
in that hole.
Of envy, Yeah.

1349
01:16:46,600 --> 01:16:49,240
Because, yeah, envy.
Envy's just.

1350
01:16:50,360 --> 01:16:53,760
Oh, it's, it's so destructive.
Yeah, especially when it gets to

1351
01:16:53,760 --> 01:16:57,640
jealousy, like there there's a
certain amount of placing on a

1352
01:16:57,640 --> 01:17:01,520
pedestal that I think can be
good for, for direction.

1353
01:17:01,520 --> 01:17:03,120
Yeah.
For aspirational stuff, yeah.

1354
01:17:03,760 --> 01:17:06,480
But when it gets to the point of
when it's like, oh, you have

1355
01:17:06,480 --> 01:17:09,480
that, why don't I have that?
That's so destructive and.

1356
01:17:09,920 --> 01:17:16,680
Then I, I, I just, I don't know
what to tell people when I can

1357
01:17:16,680 --> 01:17:20,360
see it, when I can see that is
what's motivating them, you

1358
01:17:20,360 --> 01:17:25,120
know, I just, you know what,
what, what will you achieve by

1359
01:17:25,120 --> 01:17:27,800
spending all this time worrying
about whether or not that guy

1360
01:17:27,800 --> 01:17:30,640
really got that buck?
Honestly, unless, you know,

1361
01:17:30,760 --> 01:17:34,600
because it's usually things that
some people really dwell on are

1362
01:17:34,600 --> 01:17:37,440
so trivial.
Yeah, you know, just I can't

1363
01:17:37,440 --> 01:17:40,080
imagine anything more trivial in
some of things that they hang up

1364
01:17:40,080 --> 01:17:41,680
on.
And then it gets to the non

1365
01:17:41,680 --> 01:17:43,760
trivial though.
And that's where the adage comes

1366
01:17:43,760 --> 01:17:47,680
into play of there's no, there's
no bank vault behind the hearse.

1367
01:17:47,960 --> 01:17:51,080
That's where it comes in because
you didn't do it for the

1368
01:17:51,080 --> 01:17:53,760
dollars, right?
You did it for the output.

1369
01:17:53,800 --> 01:17:56,080
And that's a completely
different shift.

1370
01:17:56,640 --> 01:18:00,800
And that's where I think like,
if lack of motivation is the

1371
01:18:00,800 --> 01:18:03,440
thing, I think that's one of the
main drivers, is that there's no

1372
01:18:03,440 --> 01:18:05,800
connection to actually being
passionate about what you're

1373
01:18:05,800 --> 01:18:08,720
trying to achieve.
It's all just about the

1374
01:18:08,840 --> 01:18:12,840
achievement.
And once that comes into play,

1375
01:18:13,240 --> 01:18:16,040
it's going to affect the product
anyway because then you get to

1376
01:18:16,040 --> 01:18:18,280
this thing of like, he'll do
whatever you do it.

1377
01:18:19,600 --> 01:18:23,000
It's wild.
And we had a so there's been a

1378
01:18:23,000 --> 01:18:25,640
Kris Kristofferson and a John
Prine so far.

1379
01:18:25,640 --> 01:18:29,200
I have a feeling we have very
similar music tastes that this

1380
01:18:29,240 --> 01:18:31,560
is going.
But mine kind of atrophied.

1381
01:18:32,040 --> 01:18:38,960
But I, I I the only modern
singer, younger singer that I

1382
01:18:38,960 --> 01:18:43,520
listen to a lot, not a lot.
But when I run, when do things

1383
01:18:44,800 --> 01:18:48,360
where I just can listen to music
be like Lady Gaga because I

1384
01:18:48,360 --> 01:18:52,760
think it's because I Can't Sing.
And I listen to her sing.

1385
01:18:52,760 --> 01:18:57,040
And I think I've seen her sing
everything from Christmas carols

1386
01:18:57,520 --> 01:19:02,600
to her own stuff and Julie
Andrews song and music type

1387
01:19:02,600 --> 01:19:08,800
songs from The Sound of Music.
And I think what a talent the

1388
01:19:08,800 --> 01:19:13,880
range she has in that voice from
this real just almost a guttural

1389
01:19:13,880 --> 01:19:19,200
sound sometimes to just any note
type of talent to think holy

1390
01:19:19,200 --> 01:19:21,240
Christ.
I pop on Adele once in a while

1391
01:19:21,240 --> 01:19:22,960
too because of that.
I think she's amazing.

1392
01:19:23,120 --> 01:19:25,760
You ever see that read with Lady
Gaga when they're at the they're

1393
01:19:25,760 --> 01:19:28,040
doing a table read for A Star Is
Born When she did that movie

1394
01:19:28,040 --> 01:19:30,760
with Bradley Cooper.
It's amazing, man.

1395
01:19:30,760 --> 01:19:34,680
Like she's in a table read with
actors, producers, all people,

1396
01:19:34,680 --> 01:19:38,600
other people working on the
movie and she sings this song

1397
01:19:39,080 --> 01:19:42,640
and every head at the table is
just awestruck.

1398
01:19:43,120 --> 01:19:46,880
And that has to be like, it's I
love those moments in life when

1399
01:19:46,880 --> 01:19:49,680
you come across the scenario
where it's like a person that

1400
01:19:49,680 --> 01:19:52,080
can do what virtually nobody
else can, right?

1401
01:19:52,680 --> 01:19:56,720
It's amazing.
I have two that knowing your

1402
01:19:56,720 --> 01:20:01,320
music tastes Now I have two
current people that I one person

1403
01:20:01,320 --> 01:20:03,800
is I think.
Equivalent with people like

1404
01:20:03,800 --> 01:20:06,720
Brian and Christopherson of one
of the best songwriters of all

1405
01:20:06,720 --> 01:20:08,040
time.
His name is Jason Isbel.

1406
01:20:08,040 --> 01:20:09,680
I listen to him all the time.
You know Isbel I?

1407
01:20:10,160 --> 01:20:12,000
Don't know his work, but I know
I know the name.

1408
01:20:12,240 --> 01:20:14,720
Oh man, unbelievable.
And then the other one is the

1409
01:20:14,720 --> 01:20:16,840
record in the player right now.
His name is Tyler Childers.

1410
01:20:17,080 --> 01:20:22,440
Oh sure, I know that name.
But people, actually, first time

1411
01:20:22,440 --> 01:20:25,040
I saw Tyler was over by you in
Eau Claire at Blue Ox.

1412
01:20:25,040 --> 01:20:27,720
Oh really?
He was at Blue Ox and I got to

1413
01:20:27,720 --> 01:20:31,480
watch his show with my arms on
the stage and then he was just

1414
01:20:31,480 --> 01:20:34,840
coming up and now he sells out
arenas around the world.

1415
01:20:35,280 --> 01:20:39,920
But 2 masters with the pen and
and and that's what draws me

1416
01:20:39,920 --> 01:20:41,560
into.
Music is similar to your work.

1417
01:20:41,560 --> 01:20:43,880
It's it's the words and the
story tool.

1418
01:20:44,520 --> 01:20:50,040
Doug Durin always amazed me with
all the different artists he

1419
01:20:50,040 --> 01:20:55,000
listens to, knows their work.
Yeah, I, I, I'm usually the of

1420
01:20:55,000 --> 01:20:57,800
the of the where I know the
name.

1421
01:20:58,160 --> 01:20:59,680
I couldn't tell you what
they're, what they sing.

1422
01:20:59,720 --> 01:21:01,720
Well, it sounds like you're a
songwriter guy though, right?

1423
01:21:02,400 --> 01:21:04,600
Like if you mentioned
Christopher, like Pryan and

1424
01:21:04,600 --> 01:21:06,920
stuff.
I I locked on the Gordon

1425
01:21:06,920 --> 01:21:11,640
Lightfoot and John Prine at a
early adulthood, basically late,

1426
01:21:11,640 --> 01:21:14,720
late teens at that time period
back in the early 70s.

1427
01:21:15,560 --> 01:21:19,520
I still listen to those guys are
both dead and I I still listen

1428
01:21:19,520 --> 01:21:23,040
to them and I'm I marvel at the
talent that that especially

1429
01:21:23,040 --> 01:21:26,360
Prine.
I think the things that he, the

1430
01:21:26,360 --> 01:21:30,360
songs and stories he came up
with, I just just love them.

1431
01:21:30,480 --> 01:21:33,000
Yes, I love the words.
I love the word play.

1432
01:21:33,400 --> 01:21:36,760
The way you could take trite
sayings and make a song and I'm

1433
01:21:37,040 --> 01:21:39,640
trite sayings and the neck has a
whole different meaning.

1434
01:21:40,160 --> 01:21:43,480
Just an incredible mind.
Yeah, that's when I wish I could

1435
01:21:43,480 --> 01:21:45,160
pick around in for a little
while and see.

1436
01:21:45,160 --> 01:21:47,040
Oh, God, yeah.
Yeah.

1437
01:21:47,040 --> 01:21:50,080
There's, I love this video.
There's a video of him and Kacey

1438
01:21:50,080 --> 01:21:51,560
Musgrave.
She's a oh, sure country

1439
01:21:51,560 --> 01:21:53,120
artisan.
She plays her song.

1440
01:21:53,120 --> 01:21:55,800
She wrote a song called I Smoke
Weed with John Prine.

1441
01:21:56,440 --> 01:21:58,040
Yeah.
And she sing.

1442
01:21:58,040 --> 01:22:03,000
She got a chance to sing it to
him on stage and just watching

1443
01:22:03,000 --> 01:22:08,120
his satisfaction in that moment.
Can you imagine?

1444
01:22:08,280 --> 01:22:11,800
I love it, man.
I, I love it and like it's

1445
01:22:11,800 --> 01:22:13,680
there's nothing else well
earned, right?

1446
01:22:13,680 --> 01:22:16,320
That's when your intention is
just in the process.

1447
01:22:17,320 --> 01:22:20,640
How reflective and and great in
that situation where you're

1448
01:22:20,640 --> 01:22:23,080
sitting here singing, OK, here's
A next generation musician

1449
01:22:23,080 --> 01:22:28,600
coming up and she wrote a song
about this about me and I, I

1450
01:22:28,680 --> 01:22:32,000
don't know, burn one with John
Prine, like watching her sing it

1451
01:22:32,000 --> 01:22:34,800
to him.
Well, it's it's charming, yeah.

1452
01:22:35,280 --> 01:22:38,880
Yeah, it's a dear.
I've watched interviewed of

1453
01:22:38,880 --> 01:22:43,800
Gordon Lightfoot late in his
life and he was talking about

1454
01:22:43,800 --> 01:22:47,440
some of his favorite songs and
stuff from me and someone

1455
01:22:47,440 --> 01:22:49,640
suggested I think some.
I can't remember how how it

1456
01:22:49,640 --> 01:22:53,680
played out but someone suggested
for loving me his song for

1457
01:22:53,680 --> 01:22:55,120
loving me it.
Was a big.

1458
01:22:55,360 --> 01:22:58,360
Peter Paul Mary made made it a
huge hit back in the early 60s

1459
01:22:58,840 --> 01:23:04,600
and Lightfoot says I hate that
because he because he is an old

1460
01:23:04,600 --> 01:23:09,880
man now and he realized he said
something like how could I have

1461
01:23:09,880 --> 01:23:13,240
written something that would
hurt someone so bad because you

1462
01:23:13,240 --> 01:23:18,280
wrote you basically wrote it off
of his first marriage and you

1463
01:23:18,280 --> 01:23:19,800
know that that's what you get
for loving me.

1464
01:23:20,120 --> 01:23:22,160
Just, you know, throw it in her
face.

1465
01:23:22,680 --> 01:23:25,800
You know, just he was just
brutal, you know, a brutal

1466
01:23:26,640 --> 01:23:29,120
treatment of his first wife
where he was out cheating on her

1467
01:23:29,120 --> 01:23:32,800
and watch it get for love of me.
And but he got could be late in

1468
01:23:32,800 --> 01:23:36,240
his life and he went never
played the song again, you know,

1469
01:23:36,240 --> 01:23:38,920
but he was still playing it, you
know, like 25 years ago.

1470
01:23:39,640 --> 01:23:41,840
But at some point in his old
age, he hadn't.

1471
01:23:41,840 --> 01:23:44,920
He had his regrets.
And I loved reading some of his

1472
01:23:44,920 --> 01:23:49,200
late interviews in life because
really realizing that guy had a

1473
01:23:49,200 --> 01:23:53,640
lot going for him in life,
almost threw it away in a few

1474
01:23:53,680 --> 01:23:57,000
few cases.
And and then but then talked

1475
01:23:57,000 --> 01:23:59,400
about it courageously late in
life about his some of his

1476
01:23:59,560 --> 01:24:01,800
regrets.
And because, you know, I think

1477
01:24:01,840 --> 01:24:05,160
you think you really realize
it's not nice to do these things

1478
01:24:05,160 --> 01:24:08,040
to people in the moment.
You might think you're justified

1479
01:24:08,520 --> 01:24:11,000
because you're mad or they
didn't that made you mad.

1480
01:24:11,480 --> 01:24:15,920
But why do you really want to
for them that bad in in such a

1481
01:24:15,920 --> 01:24:18,520
public way?
That's the fascinating thing

1482
01:24:18,520 --> 01:24:20,560
about that career path.
Someone that does it their whole

1483
01:24:20,560 --> 01:24:23,760
life, like, man, 20 year old me
is a hell of a lot different

1484
01:24:23,760 --> 01:24:28,160
than almost 40 year old me.
And someone especially a

1485
01:24:28,160 --> 01:24:30,760
songwriter who often times, you
know, they're baring their soul,

1486
01:24:30,760 --> 01:24:33,520
whether it's a story that
they're telling adjacently or

1487
01:24:33,520 --> 01:24:36,560
like directly about them.
There's a visible song like that

1488
01:24:36,560 --> 01:24:37,560
too.
It's called Cover Me Up.

1489
01:24:38,360 --> 01:24:41,400
And he's sober now, but he
obviously wasn't at the time.

1490
01:24:41,400 --> 01:24:45,800
And it's a, it's a song about,
you know, doing things that he

1491
01:24:45,800 --> 01:24:51,720
didn't want to at the time or
didn't control and a real song

1492
01:24:51,720 --> 01:24:54,000
about it.
The song's unbelievable.

1493
01:24:54,080 --> 01:24:56,800
But I, I've seen a couple times
where he's a little bit more

1494
01:24:56,800 --> 01:24:59,520
reluctant to play it now.
And I think it's probably

1495
01:24:59,520 --> 01:25:00,720
because of a similar thing,
right?

1496
01:25:00,720 --> 01:25:02,840
Like, like we grow as an
individual.

1497
01:25:03,600 --> 01:25:07,520
And when your whole life has
been creating from your

1498
01:25:07,520 --> 01:25:12,200
perception of the world, that
perception shifts so much that

1499
01:25:12,200 --> 01:25:14,920
it's like, a lot of times it's
not, oh, I'm just tired of

1500
01:25:14,920 --> 01:25:16,960
playing this song.
I've been doing it for 20 years.

1501
01:25:17,000 --> 01:25:21,160
It's that story isn't me.
Yeah, anymore.

1502
01:25:21,280 --> 01:25:22,560
It'd be hard.
Yeah.

1503
01:25:23,080 --> 01:25:25,120
Yeah.
It's fascinating, man.

1504
01:25:25,600 --> 01:25:29,640
It's it's, you know, you talk
about creativity though.

1505
01:25:29,720 --> 01:25:33,280
And As for I think the singer
songwriters, I always think

1506
01:25:33,280 --> 01:25:35,760
about all, all those notes are
out there.

1507
01:25:36,120 --> 01:25:37,840
All those notes are have always
been there.

1508
01:25:38,400 --> 01:25:42,120
But some people can take that,
take that knowledge of music,

1509
01:25:42,840 --> 01:25:45,240
make songs of all those
different notes a different song

1510
01:25:45,240 --> 01:25:47,880
that's never been done before.
It'd be similar, but never quite

1511
01:25:47,880 --> 01:25:50,640
the same.
Then put lyrics to it and make

1512
01:25:50,640 --> 01:25:53,000
it work.
And thank God there's a lot of

1513
01:25:53,000 --> 01:25:55,600
talent coming in.
The one in the one location.

1514
01:25:55,680 --> 01:25:58,720
Yeah, in one mind, you know,
it's just that's something I

1515
01:25:58,720 --> 01:26:01,520
don't possess.
Our next guest is musicians.

1516
01:26:01,520 --> 01:26:03,640
Oh, really cool.
She's from Madison too.

1517
01:26:04,960 --> 01:26:06,840
One thing I want to talk about
before we wrap up though.

1518
01:26:06,840 --> 01:26:08,880
How did, how did the mediator
work start?

1519
01:26:08,880 --> 01:26:12,240
How did that door open for you?
We talked about walking through

1520
01:26:12,240 --> 01:26:13,800
open doors.
How did that door open?

1521
01:26:14,800 --> 01:26:16,320
That again goes back to my
friendship.

1522
01:26:16,360 --> 01:26:18,920
Friendship with Doug.
I'm Doug Durin.

1523
01:26:19,640 --> 01:26:23,880
Doug back.
Doug started reaching out to me.

1524
01:26:24,760 --> 01:26:28,640
I'd seen the late 2000s, like
2007 and eight.

1525
01:26:28,640 --> 01:26:31,280
That time period.
He'd always invite me to come

1526
01:26:31,280 --> 01:26:33,920
down deer hunting because he
knew I haunted nearby on my

1527
01:26:33,920 --> 01:26:37,920
uncle's farm, My aunt and uncle
at a farm nearby and I was

1528
01:26:37,920 --> 01:26:40,640
always busy and always I always
already had a place to hunt.

1529
01:26:40,640 --> 01:26:43,520
So I was never in a big hurry to
to get get over there.

1530
01:26:43,960 --> 01:26:48,120
Eventually through e-mail and
stuff we had in the fixed

1531
01:26:48,120 --> 01:26:51,560
changes where we, I just felt
like, jeez, let's just go down

1532
01:26:51,600 --> 01:26:53,200
there and hunt with the guy
someday.

1533
01:26:53,200 --> 01:26:55,800
Seems like a decent guy.
We didn't always agree and stuff

1534
01:26:55,800 --> 01:26:59,360
and we still don't sometimes you
like any good friendship.

1535
01:26:59,360 --> 01:27:00,960
You sometimes just go what the
heck?

1536
01:27:00,960 --> 01:27:03,480
You got to have it, yeah.
Yeah, well, I think too that

1537
01:27:03,640 --> 01:27:05,880
it's like a marriage, you know,
like a good friendship.

1538
01:27:05,880 --> 01:27:10,560
You have your ups and downs and
you understand that, that you

1539
01:27:10,560 --> 01:27:13,160
don't want everything to be if
everything's seamless, you

1540
01:27:13,160 --> 01:27:14,920
really don't have a, a
friendship.

1541
01:27:14,920 --> 01:27:17,440
You have, I don't know what you
have, you know, it's just, it's

1542
01:27:17,480 --> 01:27:21,520
more, yeah, it's more, it's more
superficial, you know, But,

1543
01:27:21,520 --> 01:27:23,400
yeah.
But Doug, Doug kept inviting me

1544
01:27:23,400 --> 01:27:26,760
down and finally went down there
and hunted with him for a day.

1545
01:27:26,760 --> 01:27:29,960
And I actually end up killing a
deer the first time I started

1546
01:27:29,960 --> 01:27:32,840
hunting on his farm, had a fun
time, drag me out.

1547
01:27:32,840 --> 01:27:36,400
His buddies came out and helped
stuff and, and then we stayed in

1548
01:27:36,400 --> 01:27:40,080
touch and then, like, and we
just changed stuff back and

1549
01:27:40,080 --> 01:27:42,320
forth.
And he'd even come to my defense

1550
01:27:42,320 --> 01:27:45,880
sometimes in these readers
forums in the Press Gazette, you

1551
01:27:45,880 --> 01:27:49,280
know, because it's online back
by then, back in the 2000s.

1552
01:27:49,400 --> 01:27:51,960
Yeah.
And people be beaten on me about

1553
01:27:51,960 --> 01:27:53,440
something.
And Doug would jump in there and

1554
01:27:53,440 --> 01:27:56,200
think, oh, thanks, Doug, because
I want to take time to go in

1555
01:27:56,200 --> 01:27:57,800
there and argue with these guys.
Yeah.

1556
01:27:57,800 --> 01:27:59,920
But.
Well, then about a year after I

1557
01:27:59,920 --> 01:28:03,000
first met Doug, he said, Hey,
would you be interested in

1558
01:28:03,000 --> 01:28:06,520
coming down?
It was a back in the days that

1559
01:28:06,520 --> 01:28:09,280
the old holiday hunt after
Christmas.

1560
01:28:09,840 --> 01:28:14,840
And it was he said I'm a writer
coming in from from over in.

1561
01:28:15,080 --> 01:28:17,200
He's from Michigan, but he lives
in New York now.

1562
01:28:17,200 --> 01:28:19,960
Told me Steve's name, Steve
Rinella's name.

1563
01:28:20,480 --> 01:28:22,120
I said no, sure.
I don't know who he was.

1564
01:28:22,120 --> 01:28:28,480
But then I, it hit me after I
was down there talking to Steve

1565
01:28:29,760 --> 01:28:35,160
and it hit me that I know this
guy because my wife at one time

1566
01:28:35,240 --> 01:28:38,520
in the, in the year previous to
that had said, Hey, there's

1567
01:28:38,520 --> 01:28:42,080
going to be a guy on.
It was on National Public Radio

1568
01:28:42,520 --> 01:28:45,160
interview with Steve Rinella.
I can't remember who interviewed

1569
01:28:45,160 --> 01:28:51,360
him, but they had him on.
And I, I went into the, when

1570
01:28:51,360 --> 01:28:53,840
the, when the program came on, I
was skeptical from the start

1571
01:28:53,840 --> 01:28:57,880
because I thought so often in my
life, in my career, I've heard

1572
01:28:58,080 --> 01:29:02,880
hunters get on a nice platform
like that and really not do a

1573
01:29:02,880 --> 01:29:04,680
good job.
Absolutely.

1574
01:29:04,680 --> 01:29:12,280
You know, and just not really do
hunting put I I I think a real

1575
01:29:12,280 --> 01:29:17,000
realistic, heartfelt view of
hunting and and perspective on

1576
01:29:17,000 --> 01:29:21,640
hunting.
Lava's defensive simple not

1577
01:29:21,640 --> 01:29:25,080
stuff that I could respect.
So I went into a skeptical, but

1578
01:29:25,920 --> 01:29:30,840
then as this guy talked and
answered questions, boy, I, I

1579
01:29:30,840 --> 01:29:32,960
started paying attention.
I thought, this guy's good.

1580
01:29:33,440 --> 01:29:37,680
This guy's good.
And by the time it was over, I

1581
01:29:37,720 --> 01:29:39,880
thanked my wife.
I said thanks for letting me

1582
01:29:39,880 --> 01:29:41,400
know about this.
I'd never really listened to it

1583
01:29:41,400 --> 01:29:44,080
if you hadn't said that.
And I realized that's the guy

1584
01:29:44,080 --> 01:29:45,640
sitting across the room for me
right now.

1585
01:29:46,240 --> 01:29:51,200
And it was just really, geez,
you know, I, I realized

1586
01:29:51,200 --> 01:29:54,360
sometimes I, I overlooked the
obvious, you know, it's right

1587
01:29:54,360 --> 01:29:56,560
there in front of me.
And this guy, even after he made

1588
01:29:56,560 --> 01:29:59,760
that big impression on me on the
radio, I still didn't go and

1589
01:29:59,760 --> 01:30:04,160
look him up and really dig into
his stuff and realize he'd

1590
01:30:04,160 --> 01:30:06,880
written some really good books
already and done other stuff and

1591
01:30:07,440 --> 01:30:10,960
wasn't like my dog zested to
make this connection or became

1592
01:30:10,960 --> 01:30:13,520
more immediate.
Then I went back and read

1593
01:30:13,520 --> 01:30:16,240
Steve's books.
That time was American Buffalo

1594
01:30:16,680 --> 01:30:19,160
and the Scavengers Guide to Old
Cuisine.

1595
01:30:19,800 --> 01:30:24,880
I like the his first book, the
cute French cuisine, but a

1596
01:30:25,000 --> 01:30:27,880
little bit better.
But they're both so good.

1597
01:30:28,440 --> 01:30:35,040
Anyway, so Steve then became
familiar with with my work and

1598
01:30:35,200 --> 01:30:38,440
we did every now and then he'd
call and ask me, well, who's a

1599
01:30:38,440 --> 01:30:42,520
good contact at this magazine or
whatever it might be or on this

1600
01:30:42,520 --> 01:30:45,240
topic he had.
And one to me asked me about how

1601
01:30:45,240 --> 01:30:49,640
many deer do they figure are in
North America now or something

1602
01:30:49,640 --> 01:30:54,000
like that?
And I'm always, my guess was

1603
01:30:54,160 --> 01:30:57,400
like about 30 million.
And I said, I think it's about

1604
01:30:57,400 --> 01:30:59,240
30 million is a is a best
estimate.

1605
01:30:59,240 --> 01:31:01,720
But let me double check.
And he said something like, I

1606
01:31:01,720 --> 01:31:04,520
thought, you just know that all
hand because he knew I did a lot

1607
01:31:04,520 --> 01:31:07,360
of whitetail writing.
Yeah, stories about whitetails.

1608
01:31:07,360 --> 01:31:14,360
And I said I'd I'm pretty sure I
said before I tell someone and

1609
01:31:14,360 --> 01:31:16,480
say something, I like to kind of
verify it.

1610
01:31:16,920 --> 01:31:20,720
That was that ended up being
that just like 25 years ago or

1611
01:31:20,720 --> 01:31:22,960
15 years ago now.
So that's probably, it probably

1612
01:31:22,960 --> 01:31:24,520
would hold up as a decent
estimate.

1613
01:31:24,960 --> 01:31:28,480
But anyway, we, we had those
exchanges every now and then

1614
01:31:28,480 --> 01:31:30,840
wasn't a lot, but just enough to
where he's aware of my work.

1615
01:31:31,400 --> 01:31:37,640
And then as meat eaters start
growing, I think it's around

1616
01:31:37,640 --> 01:31:42,200
2018, they pretty much did the,
the full relaunch of Meat Eater,

1617
01:31:42,200 --> 01:31:45,320
the Meat Eater brand and made it
into what it now is.

1618
01:31:45,800 --> 01:31:50,120
And at the time, we're recording
a podcast, this is back in March

1619
01:31:50,640 --> 01:31:55,160
2018.
And we're in between podcasts,

1620
01:31:55,160 --> 01:31:58,600
but we're going to do 2 of them.
And meant before we start the

1621
01:31:58,600 --> 01:32:03,280
second one, he says, oh, before
we start, he just just out of

1622
01:32:03,280 --> 01:32:05,840
the blue says, do you want to do
some writing for us?

1623
01:32:06,280 --> 01:32:08,280
Because we're going to start
doing this.

1624
01:32:08,600 --> 01:32:11,520
He explained a little bit about
what he was working on to get

1625
01:32:11,520 --> 01:32:14,240
this thing.
He had some people approached

1626
01:32:14,240 --> 01:32:17,200
him to start this.
We're investing in him in

1627
01:32:17,280 --> 01:32:22,680
creating the some media company.
He said, yeah, yeah, like to

1628
01:32:22,680 --> 01:32:26,520
have you write for us.
And I and I, I can tell you

1629
01:32:26,520 --> 01:32:30,040
Brad, at the moment I was not
looking for extra work.

1630
01:32:30,760 --> 01:32:32,440
You know, I was really tapped
out.

1631
01:32:32,480 --> 01:32:36,240
I I had commitments in so many
different places and I was

1632
01:32:36,240 --> 01:32:39,800
already working, you know, 67
year works, work weeks all the

1633
01:32:39,800 --> 01:32:42,600
time.
But I was smart enough in the

1634
01:32:42,600 --> 01:32:48,080
moment to just say yes.
And, and I remember when I said

1635
01:32:48,080 --> 01:32:52,200
yes, I was thinking to myself, I
could tell at that time, this

1636
01:32:52,200 --> 01:32:56,040
guy's going somewhere.
And I thought, you don't say no

1637
01:32:56,040 --> 01:32:59,760
to Steve Rinella.
For a guy in my position.

1638
01:32:59,760 --> 01:33:02,440
I thought you get a chance to
work for Steve Rinella, work

1639
01:33:02,440 --> 01:33:05,480
with him, whatever it might be,
you'd take it, you know.

1640
01:33:06,120 --> 01:33:09,040
And I was, I think I was old
enough by that time too, though,

1641
01:33:09,040 --> 01:33:11,480
that I didn't want a full time
job anywhere.

1642
01:33:11,480 --> 01:33:14,440
I just wanted to keep
freelancing and I think he

1643
01:33:14,440 --> 01:33:18,120
probably don't want a guy my age
as a as an employee, you know,

1644
01:33:18,120 --> 01:33:22,040
it's just a reality of life that
you need to be in your 60s and

1645
01:33:22,040 --> 01:33:25,400
they aren't looking to hire you
full time anymore, you know,

1646
01:33:25,680 --> 01:33:28,800
Anyway, so that's why I got is
basically on that chain of

1647
01:33:28,800 --> 01:33:31,400
events.
One of those things that I will

1648
01:33:31,400 --> 01:33:34,800
often say that just like a good
friendship or or a good

1649
01:33:34,800 --> 01:33:37,160
marriage, you don't get through
overnight.

1650
01:33:37,640 --> 01:33:40,920
You know, you don't just, you
can't force those things.

1651
01:33:40,920 --> 01:33:43,000
If you force those things, you,
you're trying to have end up in

1652
01:33:43,000 --> 01:33:45,400
trouble.
And I never, I never forced

1653
01:33:45,400 --> 01:33:49,440
myself on Steve.
And I think maybe he appreciated

1654
01:33:49,440 --> 01:33:53,080
that, that I wasn't always
chasing after him, trying to get

1655
01:33:53,640 --> 01:33:57,160
in in his good graces.
He probably also appreciates a

1656
01:33:57,160 --> 01:33:59,560
writer's writer, right?
I think he, I think he probably

1657
01:33:59,560 --> 01:34:03,120
knew that, yeah, Because he, I
think he, I think he knew you've

1658
01:34:03,120 --> 01:34:06,080
had enough of my stuff by that
time that just knew I was

1659
01:34:06,080 --> 01:34:09,360
serious about my craft and took
the stuff seriously.

1660
01:34:09,360 --> 01:34:11,760
And I was going to just write
something for the sake of

1661
01:34:11,760 --> 01:34:13,720
writing it and just to make a
buck, you know.

1662
01:34:13,720 --> 01:34:17,400
And I is that I don't God,
there's, there's lots of ways

1663
01:34:17,400 --> 01:34:20,560
you can make, make a living in
writing, But I boy, if you

1664
01:34:20,560 --> 01:34:22,000
don't, if you're not true to
yourself.

1665
01:34:22,160 --> 01:34:24,720
The one thing I really like
about people and readers is that

1666
01:34:25,080 --> 01:34:29,160
the people who matter get it.
They know they they things sniff

1667
01:34:29,160 --> 01:34:34,720
out the BS real quickly and when
they talk about things like what

1668
01:34:34,720 --> 01:34:37,880
animals they pick up on our vibe
and they understanding.

1669
01:34:38,080 --> 01:34:40,960
I think animals do.
People are getting better at it,

1670
01:34:42,120 --> 01:34:44,160
right?
Yeah, you can.

1671
01:34:44,320 --> 01:34:47,440
You can snow a few people, but
most people see through it

1672
01:34:47,440 --> 01:34:49,480
pretty quick.
Yeah, and that happens all the

1673
01:34:49,480 --> 01:34:54,640
time in the hunting industry.
I'm a huge outdoorsman and I've

1674
01:34:54,640 --> 01:34:59,720
never been called into much of
the outdoor content because of

1675
01:34:59,720 --> 01:35:03,120
the facade that it creates and
it paints these pictures and his

1676
01:35:03,120 --> 01:35:08,800
ego driven and is like all about
inches in bucks and pounds and

1677
01:35:08,800 --> 01:35:13,000
fish and stuff.
And none of it ever resonated

1678
01:35:13,000 --> 01:35:14,760
with me.
I was lucky enough to grow up in

1679
01:35:14,760 --> 01:35:18,840
a house where outdoor activity
was normal, you know, and, and I

1680
01:35:18,840 --> 01:35:21,040
grew to love it because I love
doing it.

1681
01:35:21,600 --> 01:35:25,000
And like, when I hear your story
about hearing Steve on NPR the

1682
01:35:25,000 --> 01:35:29,320
first time, I firmly believe
that that's why it's grown to

1683
01:35:29,320 --> 01:35:32,880
the place it has because it when
this is a great full circle

1684
01:35:32,880 --> 01:35:37,200
moment to end the episode on it.
It is about the thing.

1685
01:35:37,800 --> 01:35:39,760
And I'm sure that's what drew
him to your work, too.

1686
01:35:39,760 --> 01:35:43,480
I mean, everything I've read
from yours, from from you is the

1687
01:35:43,480 --> 01:35:47,560
same.
It it's about the, it's not

1688
01:35:47,560 --> 01:35:51,920
about more clicks and it's not
about a great thumbnail with a

1689
01:35:51,920 --> 01:35:54,280
huge grip and grin picture or
something.

1690
01:35:54,880 --> 01:36:00,680
It's about the actual thing.
And that's I, I, I don't know.

1691
01:36:00,680 --> 01:36:03,120
I think that's why meat eaters
blossomed.

1692
01:36:03,120 --> 01:36:07,520
Yeah, girl, know what it has?
I've I've said many times to

1693
01:36:07,520 --> 01:36:10,600
Steve and about Steve that I
think he's the best thing we've

1694
01:36:10,600 --> 01:36:14,840
seen in my career to represent
hunting.

1695
01:36:15,080 --> 01:36:16,480
Yeah.
There's just there's none.

1696
01:36:16,480 --> 01:36:18,640
There's none.
There's no one even close, in my

1697
01:36:18,640 --> 01:36:22,720
opinion, agree.
He he has that depth and that

1698
01:36:22,800 --> 01:36:26,960
caring interest.
Plus he has a just a sharp sense

1699
01:36:26,960 --> 01:36:30,960
of humor, just a way he can
convey his interest and stuff

1700
01:36:30,960 --> 01:36:34,520
and, and make people laugh at
the same time and provide that

1701
01:36:34,520 --> 01:36:37,640
rich mix of intelligence and
humor.

1702
01:36:38,080 --> 01:36:44,400
It's a rare quality And and he
you know, he had he takes a lot

1703
01:36:44,400 --> 01:36:47,600
of abuse and he just keeps on
doing it.

1704
01:36:47,600 --> 01:36:50,880
And I I look at the guys he has
frowning him and they're much

1705
01:36:50,880 --> 01:36:52,800
the same way.
You know, like I always laugh

1706
01:36:52,800 --> 01:36:54,680
at.
I get a real charge of the

1707
01:36:54,680 --> 01:36:57,480
Spencer Neuhearth.
They got this the media trivia

1708
01:36:57,480 --> 01:37:01,800
show, because when Steve's on
the show and and arguing with

1709
01:37:01,800 --> 01:37:05,720
Spencer about a question, he's
beating that crap out of

1710
01:37:05,720 --> 01:37:07,960
Spencer.
Sometimes if this this humor and

1711
01:37:07,960 --> 01:37:12,280
is attacking and and Spencer
just doesn't say a word, just

1712
01:37:12,280 --> 01:37:14,880
moves on.
You know, I was and I, I think

1713
01:37:14,880 --> 01:37:17,560
there's, there's one thing that
drives someone like me nuts is

1714
01:37:17,560 --> 01:37:20,040
someone who just kind of listens
and is moves on.

1715
01:37:21,520 --> 01:37:25,840
Unchanged.
So those kind of things, it

1716
01:37:25,840 --> 01:37:30,800
gives that real human connection
that I think I I have a Kathleen

1717
01:37:30,800 --> 01:37:34,320
Parker is a she's not retired,
but she's a great columnist in

1718
01:37:34,800 --> 01:37:36,400
the Washington Post for many
years.

1719
01:37:36,920 --> 01:37:39,160
But whenever the little quotes
that has clipped it out and

1720
01:37:39,560 --> 01:37:42,320
some, you know, in the end, all
that matters is human

1721
01:37:42,320 --> 01:37:43,480
connection.
Yeah.

1722
01:37:43,760 --> 01:37:48,280
And I really, I, I believe in
that, you know, that we can have

1723
01:37:48,280 --> 01:37:50,760
all these different arguments
and stuff, but boy, when you

1724
01:37:50,760 --> 01:37:54,920
find some people around you that
you connect with God, that's

1725
01:37:54,920 --> 01:37:56,560
priceless.
Absolutely.

1726
01:37:56,760 --> 01:38:01,000
And I, you can't force it.
And it has to come naturally.

1727
01:38:01,000 --> 01:38:05,360
And I just feel lucky that in
the short time that I've known

1728
01:38:05,360 --> 01:38:09,640
Steve based was that short time,
15 years, my career.

1729
01:38:09,640 --> 01:38:11,640
I realized now I was winding
down.

1730
01:38:11,640 --> 01:38:14,040
And I make these parallels quite
often.

1731
01:38:14,480 --> 01:38:18,720
I I came under running late in
my my life and start running

1732
01:38:18,720 --> 01:38:22,640
till I was like 51 years old.
Then I ran my first marathon

1733
01:38:22,640 --> 01:38:26,000
when I was 55 and I was when I
tear for years.

1734
01:38:26,000 --> 01:38:29,440
I was running marathons and then
as I got in the last few years,

1735
01:38:29,440 --> 01:38:31,160
I've had some some health
issues.

1736
01:38:31,160 --> 01:38:34,840
So I can't run at this time
anyway, I can't run marathons,

1737
01:38:34,840 --> 01:38:38,080
but I want to again.
But what what I find fun about

1738
01:38:38,080 --> 01:38:43,600
it is one thing about running.
And if you're running regularly

1739
01:38:44,120 --> 01:38:47,640
and you're out there and these
days, these apps, running apps,

1740
01:38:48,080 --> 01:38:51,840
you're always seeing your
results, how fast you've ran

1741
01:38:51,840 --> 01:38:54,800
this race or that race or that
workout, whatever might be.

1742
01:38:55,440 --> 01:38:58,920
And what I started to realize
about a decade ago was I'm

1743
01:38:58,920 --> 01:39:04,280
documenting my decline because
running in those apps, it's off

1744
01:39:04,280 --> 01:39:07,440
putting it all in numbers and
you're running just as hard as

1745
01:39:07,440 --> 01:39:11,120
you ever have, but you're
slowing down and you're slowing

1746
01:39:11,120 --> 01:39:14,960
down and you're slowing down.
And at first, when I started

1747
01:39:14,960 --> 01:39:19,600
running, I was always going up
and I was finding like, well, I

1748
01:39:19,600 --> 01:39:22,880
know I'm going to hit this point
somewhere where it starts coming

1749
01:39:22,880 --> 01:39:26,960
down because I knew enough about
running that age eventually

1750
01:39:26,960 --> 01:39:29,480
catches up with you and you'll
start slowing down where how

1751
01:39:29,720 --> 01:39:33,760
good of shape you're in.
And, and so like now I'm at that

1752
01:39:34,000 --> 01:39:37,080
at that stage and I start
realizing, well, you know,

1753
01:39:37,080 --> 01:39:42,480
physically, I've documented it
mentally and motivationally,

1754
01:39:42,800 --> 01:39:46,120
it's much harder to, to, to
document that.

1755
01:39:46,760 --> 01:39:50,960
But I, I remember one time
reading about John Prine and he

1756
01:39:50,960 --> 01:39:55,440
said how and as youth and as
youth, he was first writing

1757
01:39:55,440 --> 01:39:58,440
songs.
He could take a break on his

1758
01:39:58,440 --> 01:40:02,040
postal route and crank out a
he'd write out a song.

1759
01:40:02,040 --> 01:40:06,040
And one day he wrote about, he
talked about how he wrote like 4

1760
01:40:06,040 --> 01:40:09,280
songs in one day, one time.
And he's in his kind of latches.

1761
01:40:09,560 --> 01:40:14,000
I can't do that anymore.
That's kind of where I'm at in

1762
01:40:14,000 --> 01:40:16,080
my career.
I think that was first writing

1763
01:40:16,080 --> 01:40:19,040
for Meat Eater.
I was cranking out, you know,

1764
01:40:19,040 --> 01:40:22,160
2000 word feature articles every
every three weeks.

1765
01:40:22,600 --> 01:40:24,880
This is back about 8 years ago,
nine years ago.

1766
01:40:25,760 --> 01:40:29,520
And I realized I could probably
still do it if there's a gun to

1767
01:40:29,520 --> 01:40:34,200
my head, but there's no longer a
gun to my head.

1768
01:40:34,640 --> 01:40:36,280
And so I'm not as productive as
I used to be.

1769
01:40:36,280 --> 01:40:39,400
I still like to think I'm as
good as I ever was with the

1770
01:40:39,400 --> 01:40:42,280
finished product.
There's there's not as many

1771
01:40:42,280 --> 01:40:45,160
finished products.
Just not cranking them out like

1772
01:40:45,160 --> 01:40:48,400
I used to.
Yeah, but I still, I'm.

1773
01:40:48,480 --> 01:40:50,520
But I'm still too stubborn to
quit, you know, so.

1774
01:40:51,400 --> 01:40:53,600
Well, for the sake of the
readers, I hope you don't for a

1775
01:40:53,600 --> 01:40:56,800
significant amount of time.
I, I hope the the decline is

1776
01:40:56,800 --> 01:40:59,600
extremely gradual because I
appreciate your content, a great

1777
01:40:59,600 --> 01:41:03,520
job.
And you're another one that

1778
01:41:03,760 --> 01:41:08,480
shines the right kind of light
on the outdoor industry and

1779
01:41:09,600 --> 01:41:13,440
considers what I look at it as
the quote UN quote, right way,

1780
01:41:13,440 --> 01:41:15,640
right or a good way.
So I appreciate that.

1781
01:41:15,640 --> 01:41:17,840
I hope the decline is slow and
gradual for you.

1782
01:41:18,320 --> 01:41:22,680
I I do too because you know
another Andy Rooney quote, Andy

1783
01:41:22,680 --> 01:41:27,680
Rooney when he turned 80, he, he
wrote, you know, I never thought

1784
01:41:27,680 --> 01:41:30,720
I'd live to be 80, but now that
I'm here, I'm in no hurry to

1785
01:41:30,720 --> 01:41:35,520
leave.
I love that.

1786
01:41:35,680 --> 01:41:40,400
And then later in life, a few
years after that, my I, I come

1787
01:41:40,400 --> 01:41:43,280
from long lived people on both
sides of my, both parents

1788
01:41:43,280 --> 01:41:47,760
families.
My, my uncle Rolly Roland Frank

1789
01:41:48,320 --> 01:41:50,600
lived down at Cross Plains,
Wisconsin and then and

1790
01:41:50,600 --> 01:41:53,560
Middleton, WI.
But Uncle Rolly, right before he

1791
01:41:53,560 --> 01:41:57,440
turned, right before he reached
90, we're asking a reunion or

1792
01:41:57,440 --> 01:42:00,200
something.
He says to me, how do you put

1793
01:42:00,200 --> 01:42:02,960
it?
You know, Pat, you know, who

1794
01:42:02,960 --> 01:42:06,920
wants to live to be 90?
And I said, don't really know.

1795
01:42:06,920 --> 01:42:11,760
And he says anyone who's 89.
Isn't that the?

1796
01:42:11,760 --> 01:42:13,880
Truth.
I thought, Oh yeah, you know,

1797
01:42:13,880 --> 01:42:17,880
you, you might be all my start
griping about old age and the

1798
01:42:17,880 --> 01:42:19,440
aches and pains, that kind of
stuff.

1799
01:42:19,440 --> 01:42:22,760
And I think Uncle Rosie and I,
people in my life, they're all

1800
01:42:22,760 --> 01:42:25,040
pretty good about realizing that
they don't bitch.

1801
01:42:25,040 --> 01:42:27,600
They didn't bitch too much about
the aches and pains of old age

1802
01:42:27,600 --> 01:42:29,880
because they realized what a
blessing it was.

1803
01:42:29,960 --> 01:42:31,280
Every day is a gift.
Yeah, that.

1804
01:42:32,040 --> 01:42:35,360
And that's, that's something I
often talk about these days is I

1805
01:42:35,360 --> 01:42:39,160
try not to bitch about my aches
and pains because I have them.

1806
01:42:40,400 --> 01:42:44,360
Because I think in my lifetime,
I've seen some really, really

1807
01:42:44,360 --> 01:42:51,240
good people die way too early
and just never, ever had a life

1808
01:42:51,240 --> 01:42:54,000
I've been able to live.
You know, as far as this

1809
01:42:54,000 --> 01:42:57,600
longevity, I think about all
these talented people like like

1810
01:42:57,600 --> 01:43:02,120
Mozart, 37 years old and he's in
the ground, you know, for God's

1811
01:43:02,120 --> 01:43:03,720
sake.
That's not fair.

1812
01:43:05,080 --> 01:43:09,800
You know, I look at all these
people like JFKRFK even, I've

1813
01:43:09,840 --> 01:43:12,560
lived even Lincoln now, because,
you know, I think he was in his

1814
01:43:12,560 --> 01:43:16,600
mid 60s when he died saying all
these really good people, just

1815
01:43:17,120 --> 01:43:21,160
way beyond our, our level didn't
make it.

1816
01:43:21,160 --> 01:43:25,520
You know, they, they got robbed
of so many, so many good years

1817
01:43:25,520 --> 01:43:28,120
of productivity for who knows
what they could have done in

1818
01:43:28,120 --> 01:43:30,560
that in that lifetime.
Who knows what, how else they

1819
01:43:30,560 --> 01:43:31,800
could have changed the world.
Right.

1820
01:43:31,960 --> 01:43:36,080
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, it's it's I keep that in

1821
01:43:36,080 --> 01:43:41,680
mind and let's not act like
you're somehow and anyone wants

1822
01:43:41,680 --> 01:43:44,320
to hear you whining about
arthritis.

1823
01:43:45,600 --> 01:43:48,800
Yeah, because I look at my I
look at my fingers and I see the

1824
01:43:48,800 --> 01:43:51,480
arthritis in them.
And I think, well, some of

1825
01:43:51,480 --> 01:43:54,680
that's probably self-inflicted
from a lifetime on a keyboard.

1826
01:43:55,320 --> 01:43:59,880
And I look at I can feel certain
things in my feet that aren't

1827
01:43:59,880 --> 01:44:02,400
normal because that's because I
ran many.

1828
01:44:02,640 --> 01:44:08,320
I ran to flex and act like I'm
not flexing is I ran 32

1829
01:44:08,320 --> 01:44:13,120
marathons. 32 you've done.
Yeah, I, I, I ran 32 marathons

1830
01:44:13,120 --> 01:44:19,280
over a period of 16 years.
That's bonkers.

1831
01:44:19,520 --> 01:44:24,120
I I, yeah, it's, it's, it's a,
it's an illness, you know, but

1832
01:44:24,560 --> 01:44:27,400
it, it, it made parts of my feet
a little numb.

1833
01:44:27,840 --> 01:44:30,400
I, I, I can, when I'm feeling
around my feet, I can tell

1834
01:44:30,400 --> 01:44:32,840
there's certain areas of my feet
that aren't, aren't normal

1835
01:44:32,840 --> 01:44:34,880
anymore.
But I think, well, on the other

1836
01:44:34,880 --> 01:44:40,240
hand, as, as a I, I, I broke, I
broke my left fibula one time

1837
01:44:40,440 --> 01:44:45,160
holding out elk meat and I took
a, took a tumble and snapped the

1838
01:44:45,160 --> 01:44:47,840
fibula.
And when I was getting treated,

1839
01:44:48,160 --> 01:44:52,360
then a couple months later, I
was talking to this, this

1840
01:44:52,360 --> 01:44:56,440
doctor, they call him, they call
his leg doctors orthopedics or

1841
01:44:56,440 --> 01:44:58,400
something.
But anyway, I asked his doctor

1842
01:44:59,080 --> 01:45:01,960
what he thought about running
and its impact on your joints.

1843
01:45:02,480 --> 01:45:06,000
And he says it's much easier to
replace the knees and is a

1844
01:45:06,000 --> 01:45:11,160
heart.
And I I I believe that.

1845
01:45:11,160 --> 01:45:13,560
Whole hearted you.
Know geez, you, you keep that

1846
01:45:13,560 --> 01:45:16,880
heart pumping, you know you can,
you can, you might you might

1847
01:45:16,880 --> 01:45:20,680
hang around, might hang around,
hang around along while in any

1848
01:45:20,680 --> 01:45:22,440
way.
Good for the old upstairs.

1849
01:45:22,440 --> 01:45:25,000
Too Yeah, it it is all those
kind of things that keep the

1850
01:45:25,000 --> 01:45:29,000
blood flowing and and keep just
thinking that's reading and and

1851
01:45:29,000 --> 01:45:32,960
and at at night before you go to
bed or whatever it might be if

1852
01:45:32,960 --> 01:45:36,960
things you guys stay engaged on.
And I go, I go to the gym like

1853
01:45:36,960 --> 01:45:40,840
at least four or five times a
week getting a treadmill and

1854
01:45:41,920 --> 01:45:44,320
crank away at it.
And I can't run a marathon right

1855
01:45:44,320 --> 01:45:49,720
now, but damn, I want to, you
know, and I as I ran, I ran two

1856
01:45:49,720 --> 01:45:53,040
of them in three years ago when
I was 67.

1857
01:45:53,760 --> 01:45:57,720
And I still, it's still fun to
feel like competitive slowly,

1858
01:45:57,720 --> 01:46:01,360
even though you're feeling
you're finishing way behind the

1859
01:46:01,360 --> 01:46:04,600
elites of the world, you know,
and I was never anywhere near

1860
01:46:05,800 --> 01:46:09,800
really high end stuff, but I
was, I was competitive.

1861
01:46:09,800 --> 01:46:13,880
I, I qualified for Boston twice
in my age group and, and I took

1862
01:46:13,920 --> 01:46:16,440
great pleasure in that and great
pride in that.

1863
01:46:16,920 --> 01:46:21,720
And then, but in the process of
a fun thing about that, it helps

1864
01:46:21,720 --> 01:46:27,720
you appreciate how much these
these people, what they can do

1865
01:46:28,600 --> 01:46:32,160
when you when you know how hard
it was to get where you where

1866
01:46:32,160 --> 01:46:35,000
you got to at the speed you were
working at.

1867
01:46:35,000 --> 01:46:37,960
You look at what they're doing.
And I think, oh, for God's sake,

1868
01:46:37,960 --> 01:46:40,560
these are these are marvelous
human beings.

1869
01:46:40,560 --> 01:46:44,440
You know, the specimens.
And like watching any kids are

1870
01:46:44,480 --> 01:46:47,920
on a baseball, every kind of any
kids are on a football, you

1871
01:46:47,920 --> 01:46:50,960
watch Aaron Rodgers or Jordan
Love or Brett Favre.

1872
01:46:51,360 --> 01:46:54,320
And what always amazes me is
they don't wind up and throat

1873
01:46:54,320 --> 01:46:57,280
this flick it.
You know it's the best to watch

1874
01:46:57,280 --> 01:46:58,840
that.
God, they just flick it.

1875
01:46:59,240 --> 01:47:02,960
And I, I remember one time that
I got to tell you the story when

1876
01:47:02,960 --> 01:47:08,800
I was I was still a young, young
parent back like 1994, December

1877
01:47:08,800 --> 01:47:14,040
94, where Don Tampa and our
vacation, family vacation

1878
01:47:14,520 --> 01:47:18,000
coincided with the Packers
playing the Buccaneers.

1879
01:47:18,600 --> 01:47:22,800
So I got, I got 5 tickets and,
and this is the Buccaneers and

1880
01:47:22,800 --> 01:47:25,000
they weren't very good back in
1994.

1881
01:47:25,520 --> 01:47:27,040
And so there's plenty of tickets
available.

1882
01:47:27,040 --> 01:47:30,640
So I got tickets on them like
the 3540 yard line and only

1883
01:47:30,640 --> 01:47:35,160
about 20 rolls up.
And I'll never forget 5 was in

1884
01:47:35,160 --> 01:47:38,200
the end zone.
He threw a pass down on the

1885
01:47:38,200 --> 01:47:41,800
field about at least a 50 yard
line that sterling sharp it and

1886
01:47:41,800 --> 01:47:44,200
end up being sharps last game
for his neck in that game.

1887
01:47:44,200 --> 01:47:48,440
Never played again but I still
remember seeing 5 uncorked that

1888
01:47:48,440 --> 01:47:51,880
ball from the end zone and it
shoots past us at about 3540

1889
01:47:51,880 --> 01:47:54,760
yard line at head height just in
front of us.

1890
01:47:55,080 --> 01:47:57,840
And you watch that ball, it
hardly had a trajectory just

1891
01:47:58,280 --> 01:48:02,200
like a laser.
And I remember just going wow,

1892
01:48:03,640 --> 01:48:09,240
and never really on TV and never
really understood what kind of

1893
01:48:09,240 --> 01:48:13,800
physical strength, arm strength
that guy had to do that.

1894
01:48:14,000 --> 01:48:16,760
You know, nothing.
So often we watch these games,

1895
01:48:16,760 --> 01:48:20,640
watch these people doing these
miraculous things, and we don't

1896
01:48:20,640 --> 01:48:23,120
really appreciate because we're
singing on TV and whatever you

1897
01:48:23,120 --> 01:48:25,840
you don't, you don't really make
that that human connection

1898
01:48:25,840 --> 01:48:30,800
again, how talented some of
these people are, you know.

1899
01:48:30,800 --> 01:48:34,120
And so that's why is one of my
little things that weave into my

1900
01:48:34,120 --> 01:48:38,040
writing isn't in my thought
process is that we can't all be

1901
01:48:38,040 --> 01:48:42,120
Brett Favre and what's what
there's fishing or hunting.

1902
01:48:42,360 --> 01:48:44,320
There are Brett fires in the
fishing world.

1903
01:48:44,320 --> 01:48:46,480
There are Brett fires and
hunting world.

1904
01:48:46,880 --> 01:48:51,040
I'm not one of them.
Yeah, I had Dan on a while back.

1905
01:48:51,040 --> 01:48:52,320
Dan in fault.
Oh, yeah.

1906
01:48:52,400 --> 01:48:53,920
Yeah.
Talk to him about hunting.

1907
01:48:54,160 --> 01:48:56,760
Talk about knowing there's
levels to a game, you know, of

1908
01:48:56,760 --> 01:48:58,720
scouting deer.
Oh, yeah.

1909
01:48:59,160 --> 01:49:00,720
Yeah.
But that's good, man.

1910
01:49:01,040 --> 01:49:04,040
Anything in life, it's great to
know there's something out there

1911
01:49:04,040 --> 01:49:05,520
that could humble you in a
heart.

1912
01:49:05,640 --> 01:49:08,160
Yeah.
And these that's what I find so

1913
01:49:08,520 --> 01:49:12,120
interesting about hunters and
fisherman tube, but hunters I

1914
01:49:12,120 --> 01:49:16,240
know more than that.
Do the anglers you meet these

1915
01:49:16,240 --> 01:49:21,440
guys that they can get on a a
deer, they get be all scouting

1916
01:49:22,200 --> 01:49:27,360
and placing a tree stand and
they see things and feels things

1917
01:49:27,360 --> 01:49:30,840
that I'm not getting it.
And I don't know why they put

1918
01:49:30,840 --> 01:49:32,600
that stand there.
I want to put that stand there,

1919
01:49:32,600 --> 01:49:36,720
but boy, they do it enough times
and that they consistently do

1920
01:49:36,720 --> 01:49:39,600
better than I do.
I think, I wish I, I wish I had

1921
01:49:39,600 --> 01:49:42,560
that talent. 100% I went to one
of his scouting workshops a

1922
01:49:42,560 --> 01:49:46,000
while back after I had him on
the podcast and just the places

1923
01:49:46,000 --> 01:49:48,400
he showed in his thought process
was amazing.

1924
01:49:48,640 --> 01:49:51,600
Yeah, it's great.
Yeah, it it and it's, you know,

1925
01:49:53,160 --> 01:49:56,320
I, I've heard Steve quote me a
few times and it always

1926
01:49:56,320 --> 01:49:58,400
flattered me when he quotes
something I, I point out.

1927
01:49:58,400 --> 01:50:02,320
But back in my deer and deer
hunting days, this is back in

1928
01:50:02,320 --> 01:50:05,680
the 1990s primarily I've worked
a little bit into the 2000, but

1929
01:50:05,880 --> 01:50:09,680
pretty much the 1990s.
But I met a lot of guys when I

1930
01:50:09,680 --> 01:50:12,120
was editor of Deer and Deer
Hunting magazine who were.

1931
01:50:12,120 --> 01:50:14,520
This is where I really got that
full appreciation for how good

1932
01:50:14,520 --> 01:50:17,960
some of these guys are.
But was always, I thought ironic

1933
01:50:18,080 --> 01:50:22,200
in some, not all, not all cases,
but in some cases who I can

1934
01:50:22,200 --> 01:50:23,840
still picture in my mind who I'm
thinking of.

1935
01:50:24,520 --> 01:50:27,920
I talked to these guys and that
asked him what I thought was a

1936
01:50:27,920 --> 01:50:31,840
real basic question like, well,
what kind of tree was that that

1937
01:50:31,840 --> 01:50:33,680
you're up in?
Because, you know, because

1938
01:50:33,680 --> 01:50:36,800
there's different trees have
different branch configurations

1939
01:50:36,800 --> 01:50:39,000
and sometimes that background
helps.

1940
01:50:39,200 --> 01:50:40,960
Yeah, break up your line and
whatever.

1941
01:50:41,240 --> 01:50:43,000
So I thought maybe there's
something where they're looking

1942
01:50:43,000 --> 01:50:45,880
at this particular kind of tree
species, a tree.

1943
01:50:46,440 --> 01:50:52,200
And, and I said they can, they
can tell you how high they were

1944
01:50:52,200 --> 01:50:53,800
in that tree.
They couldn't tell you what

1945
01:50:53,800 --> 01:50:55,960
country it was.
And I also was kind of

1946
01:50:55,960 --> 01:50:59,400
interested in they'd be up in
that tree stand and didn't

1947
01:50:59,400 --> 01:51:00,720
didn't know what kind of tree
they're sitting in.

1948
01:51:01,040 --> 01:51:03,120
Yeah.
And I thought, well, I was just

1949
01:51:03,120 --> 01:51:08,320
obviously, obviously that kind
of tree wasn't that wasn't the

1950
01:51:08,320 --> 01:51:12,640
final piece the puzzle.
Right, it was something else.

1951
01:51:12,640 --> 01:51:14,200
Something.
Else that they have more for

1952
01:51:14,200 --> 01:51:16,520
them.
Yeah, that I appreciate your

1953
01:51:16,520 --> 01:51:17,520
time.
You bet.

1954
01:51:17,560 --> 01:51:19,880
Thank you for coming.
It was great chatting and

1955
01:51:19,880 --> 01:51:23,560
hopefully we can start one of
those, one of those roller

1956
01:51:23,560 --> 01:51:25,320
coaster ride of a friendship
from here.

1957
01:51:25,320 --> 01:51:27,640
So I appreciate you.
Good talking to you too.