Paige McKenna - Documentary Filmmaking, "Seeds of Life", and "Gold" - Ep. #11

0:18 What's up, friends? Welcome back to Rooted Wisconsin, where we are dedicated to authentically sharing the stories of the people who make Wisconsin home. I want to start kicking off every show by thanking you. Thank you for watching, thank you for subscribing, thank you for that. Like on social media, it all means the world to us. And the growth since we've started has been phenomenal. And I can't wait to see what's next for the show. So and that's all because of you. So thank you for being you. Thank you for subscribing, thank you for watching. And we hope you stick around for a little bit. A couple of exciting announcements to make. One, we're very close to nearing the end in this studio and it looks like we are going to be moving into a new studio relatively soon. And I can't wait for the next stage of Rude Wisconsin and everything that comes with that.

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2:45 It means the world to us, and we appreciate you. When you think of a starting point, what do you think of? I think maybe like my first film, kind of getting that, like, out of the way, I guess. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. Did you get a chance to watch it or? Yeah, I checked out some of it. Yeah. Super interesting concept. I was just wondering, like, did that start from a place of passion for you, or is that something like a story that fell in your lap?

3:30 Where did that come from? Yeah, so I when I was in high school, I gave my phone number to like at a after a church group. We there was a guy like who had a little booth set up and he was talking about mission trips to Haiti. And I really wanted to go, but it was like 1200 dollars or something. And I was, you know, in high school and I just thought, well, you know, I'll just give him my number if any, Like opportunities come up eventually and like you know, don't have the money right now, but like maybe eventually I will. And it was like 10 years later, he called 10 years later. 10 years. Later and I like answered and I never answered the phone when I like, don't know a number, but I answered it anyway for whatever reason.

4:17 And I was at working at Kohler Company as a video producer and was kind of thrown off by the call. And you know, he was like, do you Remember Me? And I was like kind of, you know, and it started coming back to me. But he said, you know, I kept your number after all these years. And we do have a open slot on our next trip and it's paid for. Like someone had to back out. So it was a trip to Haiti, paid for. And I just immediately said yes and didn't really ask like details, you know, like, when are we leaving? How long will we be gone? I just was like, Yep, I will totally do that. And he said, well, we leave in two weeks and we'll be gone for two weeks. And I thought, OK, I got to talk to my boss, I think, But yes, like, buy me the ticket.

5:06 And I did end up talking to my boss right after. And, you know, I was contracted at that time through Kohler, so I didn't get paid vacation. And I thought, you know, I don't need, you know, to be paid for two weeks or whatever. But he had said, like, your contract doesn't allow you to take two weeks off. And I said, well, then I'm putting my two weeks in. It's like I have to go, like I can't pass up this opportunity. So I had just gone on that trip just to like help build walls. Like we were doing like a dental clinic kind of pop up thing. And I had met Sister Maria through that trip and I like immediately was just like this woman is amazing. Like her story needs to be told.

5:49 And so then I came back to the States and, like, it changed my life, you know, just like seeing the poverty over there and how much she's helping and what she's doing and her mission. And so I fundraised for I think like a year and then rented all kinds of gear and went over there and shot for two weeks and then came back with a bunch of footage that was in a foreign language. And I'm like, I need to get this translated because I don't speak either language. Like, did we get anything? And so I sent that off to be translated and then I edited it for. It took me about a year and it was during COVID, so I had time.

6:29 I was working as a bartender during that time, so I had like a lot of free time during the day and that that was like my full time job, so. Yeah, I was wondering that as a, you know, creating a documentary, I was just assuming you had like a translator there, like telling you what they said because how do you know if you're getting, how do you know the content is going to match what you're looking for? It was terrifying. Like I wrote questions and then I had a translator who was like, there with me, but she didn't go to the shoots. Like I was sent out on the back of a motorcycle with a man that I couldn't, like, communicate with, and he was then doing the interview. So my questions got translated from English to Spanish or Portuguese and then from Portuguese to French Creole.

7:15 So like the translation twice. And then, you know, I'm sitting like monitoring audio and monitoring the camera and I'm like, OK, did he answer the question? Did he ask the question? Like, I I've never felt so stupid in my life, honestly. Yeah, like and helpless, you know? That's yeah, I think that's probably the best, the best term. Like you can't ask a follow up question. You have no idea what they said. You don't know how you know that. Had to be a creative trip on the back end when you got home to be like, mash it all together and be like, how does this fit? Yes, totally. So how long from when you were there the first time until you went back to the film, the documentary?

7:55 Like what was the? I think it was two years, OK. Yeah, I think I went in 2016, I think for the first time and then 20, No, I went in 2018 and then 2020. So I actually came back two weeks before they shut down the airports for COVID, yeah, it was like if I I mean and Haiti like shut down their country basically. So like. You could have a huge documentary if about two weeks. Later still be there, Yeah. Like like a living documentary? Not. You'd probably speak, you'd speak the language. I would, yeah. Yep. That's awesome. It's a well life's happenstance, you know, saying yes when an opportunity presents itself, you never know what it's going to come of it.

8:40 Yeah, Well, yeah. And like just being uncomfortable too, you know, Like, I felt helpless. I felt really out of my comfort zone. But I think that's why I continue to do these projects is like to get myself out of my comfort zone, you know? And it I like that feeling because I think it's important to feel uncomfortable a lot of the times to test yourself and, you know, test yourself creatively too. That's where so much personal growth comes from. And when you reside in comfort, the the boundary pushing stops too. Oh. Yeah, for sure. So maybe back up a little further. What?

9:21 How did your interest start? Like you you didn't you. You must have had some idea of creating a documentary at some point, or did it just like pop into your mind when you were there? Honestly, I think it's just popped into my mind like I went to film school, but I was like, we didn't really have any, like, documentary classes or anything. It was more like, you know, narrative film, is that the word, narrative film, Like drama, you know, like that sort of stuff where you write a script. We had to screen writing classes and then it was more like, now, you know, come up with this story and then shoot at this, you know? However, pick your shots and like, light everything really nice. And that was like, cool for me. But I was like, damn, this is like a lot of work, you know, Like and for me, like my passions reside in like people's stories and like the humanity of, you know, like how people, you know, people have to walk 10 miles to get water. And I can just walk to my sink, like. So I think, I I think when I was in Haiti, I was just like, OK, I think this is like my life purpose is to, like make documentaries and tell people's stories who may not have a voice and, you know, like bring their stories to life and have my experiences there.

10:40 Kind of like I want people to who if they can't physically go to Haiti, I mean, right now it's like very dangerous. But if you can't go to Haiti, like, at least watch this film and kind of, you know, hope that they can understand kind of like what I went through, like like bringing that experience to other people. Yeah, I was wondering that too. Was Haiti in a little bit different place when you were there and filming this? Yeah, I mean it's like very, very dangerous now, sadly, like the mission group that I went with, like they haven't gone I think in like 2 years. Not only with the COVID stuff that's still happening there, but like a lot of the, there's a lot of violence and a lot of like kidnapping. And like actually Maria, the woman who the documentary is about, she has like a couple of like hits out on her. So she has like a permanent bodyguard. It's kind of a lot to get into, but it's basically like the two countries don't get along, the Dominican and Haiti. So they're like constantly at odds. And like, if she's helping in Haiti, the Dominicans are like, you know, well, she should help here. She's helping in both countries.

11:53 But it's just like AI don't know generational, you know, the poverty there is just it it changes people and it makes people, you know, do whatever they need to do to to feed their families. So it's really. Absolutely. Humanity is a different thing as as poverty rises, humanity, just humanity in general really adapts and changes and that like the counter intuitiveness of that right. Like she has this amazing skill set and not only that and drive and. The patience, Yeah, yeah. That was one of my one of my favorite parts of the documentary so far.

12:36 I can't remember verbatim how they said it, but it was like she would find any excuse she could to be outside. She finished like what? It was like a five year program in two years or something and everybody was like, how'd you do it? And she's just like, likes it, yeah. She didn't sleep. She wanted to be outside. Yeah, yeah, I can see that. I can see how that you know some that similar sentiment is some reason why I started the podcast is sharing people's stories and I can see that how like when you come across stuff like that in life it's like people need to know about this and and it's awesome that you have the skill set to make it happen.

13:18 Thank. You. Yeah, yeah. That's sweet. So film school but never thought about documentaries Hadn't crossed your mind. I actually, like, wanted to be an actress ever since I was 7. So I was like, my parents were wonderful and supportive. Like I was shocked, You know, looking back like as a 7 year old, you know, like, OK, honey, you're going to be an actress. Like, but when I was 15, so like basically throughout high school, my mom and I would fly out to LA and like, I had an acting coach out there. So I did a lot of camps and things and like I was kind of like immersed in like that world from since I was like 14, I guess so. But I decided acting was not for me. And it's just like I like being on the other side of the camera, you know?

14:05 Sure. Yeah. How did that happen? How did you make that decision to say that it wasn't for you? That I think that resonates with a lot of people. We all had a all's, a all's a strong word. It's all-encompassing. But most of us had a dream at one time that it didn't happen, and a lot of times it's for the better. But the journey to get there and make that decision is always so poignant and difficult. So how did that happen for you? When did it? Was it at one point in time or did it grow slowly? That's a good I'm trying to remember. I think it well. I think it was like I got really into Wes Anderson films and I wanted to like have the control of like the editing and like the directing process of that. Not necessarily like, you know, I wanted to like create visual things, I guess, rather than create like characters. So I think it just kind of switched like during school and I just kind of realized, you know, also, you know, everyone in LA in that area was trying to be an actress or an actor. So it was like, I just kind of like didn't give up on myself, but I just kind of like tweaked my dream a little bit to. Yeah, adapt to what happens.

15:20 So did you have like, did you have like gigs? Did you act and stuff? I had auditions, but I not, not while I was in college. When I was in high school, I did auditions for like Disney Channel stuff and like never got anything. But it was still like awesome experience because it like, I still remember that feeling of like being terrified and walking into a room of producers and being like, OK, now do your monologue, you know, and hope I remember it. But it. So I think like that helped me grow up too and just like be more of like comfortable with myself and like I helped with my confidence. I think where people might think it like would do the opposite, but it it helps, like you know, grow a pair and get out there and do it.

16:06 Absolutely. Well and in that atmosphere, it's so competitive like there and I would guess, I don't know, I've never been there, but I I would assume that they're looking for a specific thing that you don't know what it is. So it's completely out of your control and you know all you can do is become resilient again, growth from uncomfort maybe that's our theme today, Paige. OK, so that switches then. And then you go to film school and then it sounds like what what after that was the corporate gig you went into? After that I moved. So I was dating a guy pretty seriously in LA after I graduated.

16:51 So I like moved back home here just to like I was just going to work at like a coffee shop and like save up and move back to LA. But I ended up getting a job at a local production company, like kind of doing what I went to school for here. So I was like, you know, this is pretty cool. I might, you know, stay, save up money and then eventually get back out there and like, I'm still here. So. So it was a small production company in town here and then Kohler Company and then another small production company. So I kind of, you know, got my feet wet and every like type of company business in town here so.

17:33 Yeah, before the before the 1st documentary, Seeds of Life. Before that. Had had you done any like have you, had you done passion projects outside of like work or it was just focused on kind of the day-to-day? Yeah, it was just the day-to-day. I I didn't really have a whole lot of time. Like I traveled a lot for Kohler, which was awesome. I really missed that. But so I didn't have a whole lot of time free time to like do any of that so. Yeah, I get that. It was when I left my my previous job in broadcasting. I I figured I'd want to make content again sometime. But the job that I took at that time and then that in coordination with kind of being burned out from content, I stopped for a while too.

18:19 But it takes a lot of time to to do creative things because it's it's often times well, like we don't always have a story like that fall in our lap too, right? Right. And then it's like, OK, how do you, how do you maneuver this around life, right? Like you had to leave gainful employment and kind of take a step in the scary direction. Yes, very. Yeah. What's it like as you take a step in, in that scary direction with filmmaking in particular, what's it like? It's an expensive thing to do and and there's a bunch of like, fundraising you have to try. What does that space even look like? Like How do you how does that work? Yeah, so I with the first film, I rented all of my gear and at the end of it I was kind of like, well, I could have like just bought most of this for what I paid in rental. So then this time IA buddy of mine just like retired from like doing wedding videography.

19:24 So he sold me most of his stuff for like a very like friend rate. So I was just like this is amazing. Like handshake. Thank you. Though paying it off. But yeah, but I was like, you know, now I can actually, like have the freedom to like do my own stuff, 'cause like, you know, I would ask, I have to ask a lot of favors because I didn't have all the gear that I needed for like for the first one and even for this, this next film, it was like, OK, I need someone with a camera, like, can I borrow your camera, please, just for the weekend, you know? Or like, can I borrow you and your camera? Because I need to do the interviewing or whatever. So I've just been really lucky having, like a support system of, like, professionals, too, that have just volunteered their time.

20:10 So like if I I mean. I haven't had to pay anyone, like, for their time. But so this film, like I say, you know, my budget's like 10 grand, which people are like, what? That's it. But it's like literally like, I'm not paying myself. I'm not paying like my wonderful crew. Like, it's literally just like for music licensing for the gear, for meals. Like, I like to feed people. If I'm not paying them, we're gonna go and have a meal. Yeah, So. But when you have a crew of, you know, six people, it's like 250 bucks for a meal. And like, so things add up and and gas, 'cause I'm traveling now for for this film, so I I do try to pay myself with gas money and and my crew with gas money. So yeah, a bare minimum, but.

20:58 Yeah, at least that's part one part. With documentaries you don't have some talent because that gets very expensive too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like the kind of the classic like fundraising that we see, like GoFundMe type stuff. And Yep, I have a GoFundMe. Yeah, this, this film's been a little bit trickier to get funding for just because it is like kind of a the subject matter, you know, people either are comfortable with it or they're very uncomfortable with it. So it I've seen like a lot of support like from my friends and which has been super, super helpful and like my, you know, like my the crew and the community.

21:45 But it is like it's been tough, you know like the I've applied for a couple grants, I applied 2 local ones. One of them I still might get funding through, I have to touch base with them next month, but the other one was not really given an opportunity to like plead my case. So it was kind of like but but I kind of expected it going into it. It's a it's a tough ask for sure. Yeah, and we live in such APR driven world that any time like there it could scratch the surface of like riling half the masses funding. It's funny our last one of our last guests he does like waterway cleanup and he contacted a couple like if he cleans a lot of lures out of local rivers and he contacted the companies about like maybe collaborating and and helping out and I told him I'm like I I that's probably why you didn't get a response because of the negative PR that could come from that but it's such like a it's a good thing right.

22:51 And I think I don't know the the the shininess or the the perceived shininess of PRI think takes away from the authenticity that I'm at least striving for with my conversations. Exactly. So that's probably a good segue into it. Let's talk about Gold, your next project. How did the How did this one come about? Yeah, this one, actually. I was approached by two of the women who are in the film. They came to Seeds of Life when it showed the premiere back in 2021. So they were at the premiere and they kind of approached me afterwards and said, you know, we can't have a story for you. Not sure if you're ready to do another one yet, but they kind of, like pitched it to me and I was like, yeah, like totally. This is what I want to do.

23:46 And I think like my, you know, my theme for my films has been giving a voice to people that don't always have 1:00 and also female empowerment. Like that's kind of the theme and trajectory that I'm trying to keep on. And it took probably a year to to meet the club owner to kind of like foster the relationships with the women in the film. Just because you know from my perspective if if I was in their shoes and you know some chick was coming in and I want to make a movie about you and like well what's your angle here? You know like are you going to expose us like what's your. And it. So I'm grateful that it that they were kind of you know wondering about like like they were pretty hesitant which was good I think and rightfully so because it was. I mean, not only are they being vulnerable with their stories, but it's also like some of them have family members that don't know that they're dancers.

24:48 And, you know, it was like all this level of exposure that they really had to think about, Like, do I want to, you know, put myself in this situation? And like, I'm so grateful that, you know, the girls in the film decided to be in it and like share their stories because I think, like it's such an interesting, it's such an interesting, I guess, like career path that you could take or you know, a job. Like everyone's interested in strippers like and it's a very, there's a lot of levels to, you know, a strip club and like the culture around it and stuff is so interesting to me. So I've been learning a lot. Absolutely.

25:31 So it was 2 dancers that approached you and just wanted to tell the story of dancing. So they are, they are current dancers. And so they said we have this club up in Iron Mountain area called the Gold Nugget and it's in technically it's in Spread Eagle. So I just think that's hilarious. At first I was like, that's not real. And they're like, yeah, it's real. And they showed me on the map. And so it the club is different because it's run by a woman. And she was a dancer in the 90s. So she runs the club in a way that empowers women and kind of like, so let me back up. She, when she was dancing in the 90s, she saved up enough money to leave her abusive husband.

26:23 And that was kind of like the story that, like hooked me was like, well, yeah, like you can make a lot of money, quick money when you're dancing and like, leave your abusive situations. Cause like, so many women are stuck in these situations that, you know, a lot of domestic abuse, like there's a lot going on. And if you're not financially, like, stable and independent, you're kind of stuck. So that's kind of what hooked me into it. Sure, so. So they they found the story interesting of like her, and then the rest is kind of coming with it. Yeah, and so they work for her. They work at that club, Sure. Yeah, OK.

27:05 So you you mentioned like the layers of what you know that work is, and then there's also a lot of layers around the people who who work there. Where where are you at with like filming content? Is all the content you have like done or are you still filming content? Still filming? Yeah, so. You're right in the thick of. Things right now, yeah. And I was so excited like I just shot. So I've been trying to do like I use my crew when I do like, you know, the the big interview. So I sat down and talked with the girls for I think it was like an hour each at the club and I had, you know, a crew of, I think it was five of us.

27:50 And you know, in this industry it's very like male dominated. So it was all men and me and you know, the woman having a conversation kind of about like, you know, like, you know, sexual abuse or what whatever, like their past. So it was like a space that maybe didn't feel so safe maybe for either of us, just because I love the the men that work with me, but it's just like, you know, there's still like a male presence. And so I wanted to go to have that of course in the bag and then travel to their homes, these women and just me and a camera and kind of get more into like the the weeds of like like you know their past and their upbringing and just have a more like comfortable and like just have them feel more comfortable I guess and like telling me their story. And so I just went up and shot like a day in the life thing with one of the girls on Sunday.

28:52 And I'm like so excited with what the content that I've got and it's very cool, very exciting. Yeah, absolutely. So is it kind of coming to life that you're going to be like paralleling their stories with the owner's story type thing? OK. Yeah. So I have about an hour of footage on a timeline right now and I showed it to a very small group of like trusted people recently. And just to get some feedback because I'm so close to it now or it's just like I don't. Does this make sense? Is this good? And, you know, I'm moving some things around now. But yeah, it's all, it's like little offshoots of the the women's stories, but it's still like very much about, you know, Dusty.

29:37 And like Dusty is her name, the owner of the club. So it's still about, you know, her and her journey and things and. Was she on board from the beginning? No, I was going to say. Yeah, no, yeah. It's like AI mean I I remember having lunch with her the first time I met her and she like, didn't really look at me like the whole lunch. And I was just like, oh man, this is going to be tough, you know, Like I try to be like an open and like bubbly, welcoming person. But it was just like, you know, I I felt pretty defeated after that lunch because I was like, I don't know if she's going to be like cool with this. The the younger girls were more open from the beginning but still a little bit closed off. Like it took, you know a year to foster relationships with them so and now they're honestly like my sisters and she dusty like she's been amazing.

30:29 She did so good in her interview, like so open and like I yeah, I was very happy with it. And you can like you can speculate as to why, right. Like we're we're talking about the the nature of that industry and not looking at you might be her guard, you know that's that was her guard up at the time feeling you out, you know. Having lunch. But seeing if you're going to tell the story, I'm I'm guessing that she would like told, you know, because there's a lot of stories just about that profession in general that aren't all the times, the real stories, I would assume. And then in another way, like painted in a negative light and I'm sure that's what she was thinking, just another like, you know, spotlight on all the bad instead of. Because the the couple trailers that I've seen that you released from it, it seems like the you're flipping that script. It's the spotlight on the good that can come from it if you use it positively.

31:31 Yeah, yeah. And the empowerment, yeah. Yeah. Have you been like, were you close to that environment at all prior to these two approaching you? No. No, no. I had never stepped foot in a strip club before this project. And I actually grew up very in a very Catholic, conservative household. And so, you know, I have found myself over the years, you know, now I'm very comfortable with who I am and my choices and whatnot. But yeah, my parents, like, are not happy that I'm doing this story. And like, you know, it's like a lot of, but personally, like, like we were talking about earlier being uncomfortable.

32:13 I when I went to the Nugget for the first time, I was just like, you know, because I went up there I think twice before I started filming anything just to like, experience, you know, what that club was like and what the customers were like and the girls. And I was so uncomfortable. I was just like drinking PBRS in the corner, just like not looking at anyone. Like, this is so crazy. I went by myself too, you know? And it's just like, OK, who's this? You know, Is she a dancer, too? You know? But it I've become a lot more comfortable with the club atmospheres. I recently went to another club just to like, you know, see other clubs and atmospheres and the girls and like how the rotations go and like what the customers are like just for my own like research and things. And yeah, I mean it's it's a whole nother world. And it like, I still get a little bit uncomfortable just seeing like some of the how some of the men like interact with the women and it's, you know, part of me wants to like step in and be like you can't treat her like that. But then it's like, you know, OK, I gotta this is her job. She's at work like she she is in control you know and that's like a very that's a it's a cool thing for me to like understand and see and like it's, I mean it's still a learning experience for me.

33:37 Yeah. So how long have you been filming like in that, Like when did you start? I started in April, so in April we, I think it was in April. Yeah, we did like just like some still photography up there for like the promotional footage and stuff. And then I filmed most of the trailers when I was up there in April. So yeah, it's I've, I think I've been doing like about like a shoot a month typically, or like an interview a month. How does how does working on a project like, like like that go as far as like when do you know you have enough footage? Like, 'cause you can probably, I just kind of working through it, like imagining myself in that you have to, like, open door after door that you're like, OK, this needs to be explored, this needs to be explored, and it can turn into like, this endless project, right?

34:31 Yeah, I keep saying this could be a docu series like I have. I already have so much footage. And, like, I keep finding these rabbit holes, too, with like, each of these women's stories where it's like, you know, they have some sort of experiences with like, you know, for example, there's there was like, a recording that one of the girls took recently and, like, showed me it and stuff. And I was like, this is a whole nother, like, you know, rabbit hole of, like, the customers, you know, the customers that come into the club, like what they're dealing with. And like, you know, there's just so many different angles that, like, things could go.

35:13 So I have to be very focused. And, like, I actually have been getting a lot of messages from women who have worked at the Nugget saying, like, oh, you know, I'd love to, like, share my story and stuff. And it's been really hard for me to to be like, you know, I can't have 25 girls in this film. Like, I wish I could, but it's just like then I'm going to lose, you know, the I, then it, then it becomes something that's like almost too chaotic, you know, It has to be like a little bit more focused, so. It that can probably get outside of the story you're trying to tell, 'cause that can quickly that could become like soft white, underbellyish. Have you seen soft white underbelly?

35:54 Yeah, and fascinating content too. And you can do an awesome job with it. But it doesn't seem exactly what you're trying to do with this. Yeah. So it's going to focus on 2 dancers and the owner. Yeah, two or two or three dancers. It's yeah. And then I'm also trying to there will be a man interviewed. He's the, the bouncer like manager of the club and he's worked there for a long time. So I I want that perspective cause like the themes that are coming from this, which again documentary film making is kind of like easy because it's just like well you know, it just comes together and then it's like, OK now I'm like finding these themes and can pick out like commonalities. And a lot of it is like the sisterhood that goes on at this specific club, which I think is like amazing cause a lot of from what the girls have said, a lot of other clubs like the women are kind of pitted against each other and like there's a lot of like jealousy and like cattiness and whatnot. But at this club, like, they're all like best friends and sisters and every like, That's also a theme throughout the film too, is like the sisterhood that they have and like they support each other and like most of them are sober, which shocks me because like I if I were to be a stripper, I would need to be wasted, probably.

37:19 But like they're, you know, they're keeping each other accountable. And like that's another beautiful part of like this club in like the middle of nowhere, like supporting everyone supports each other. It's so cool. Yeah, leads me to a couple questions. I had been thinking about one being what or or have you. You said you went to a couple other clubs to like contrast. Have you had the chance to do that in depth or thoroughly because like that being a woman owned club, I'm assuming there probably aren't many of those. That's just me making an assumption. I have no idea, but that is probably far outside the norm.

38:01 Is. Is that what you've found so far? Yes, very outside the norm. There's in Dusty's interview, I think. I think it'll make the final cut of the film. But she talks about like, how, you know, people will come in and they'll say, like, where's the big man? And she's like, you're looking at him, you know, like I'm the owner. And, like, people are just shocked constantly. And like, even dancers that come and like dance for like there for the first time, they're like, she's the owner, you know, like. And I'm like, that's so cool. It's badass. Yeah, yeah. And then kind of along with that have being in that uncomfortable environment like have have you run any into any like precarious positions?

38:51 Yet it's funny, there was the, the club that I went to a little bit north, probably like 45 minutes. Can I say the name? Is that fine? OK. I went to North Point, which is like right off the highway kind of in. I think it's in Peshtigo, technically. But like, the girls had kind of told me, like stories about that place and like how rough it is and whatnot. And it was like tiny. Like the club itself was very small. And you know, I walked in and you know, of course I'm, like, always, like the only woman at the club lose, not a dancer. But the girls were all like talking to me, 'cause like, I know that most of them.

39:35 And like we were all. Kind of. You had gotten to know most of them just because they know what you do. So yes, I guess, but the two girls who work at the Nugget also work at North Point once in a while. OK, so they were there that night. So, like, they were introducing me to all the other girls and stuff and like, telling them what we were doing. And I just noticed that, like, a lot of the guys were like, kind of like, they seemed kind of pissed off because I was like, taking the girl, you know, like the girl or I was distracting them or whatever. And it was like they wanted to talk to them, but they were talking to me and stuff, which was kind of funny. That was really, that's really been the only, like, precarious thing I would say. It was just like, dudes are like, jealous that I'm there. Something about the girls are talking to me. Yeah, Well, and they probably had a vested interest too in you because with the other two girls working there, they, you said you've been angled to see if you could have more in the documentary.

40:37 There's probably this whole thing of like, they want to talk to you to see, you know, several different angles you could think of. Yeah, that's fascinating. So what, how would you say just in this little bit of time your perception is shifted of what you thought that atmosphere was like before you started shooting to now where you at? Oh my gosh. I mean, it's like totally changed. Like I from like, you know, being so uncomfortable and like you know, well there's also another like side of I think the most fascinating part of all of this is like, you know, most women have had some sort of sexual trauma in their lives. It's just kind of how it goes.

41:24 And you know, personally I have also. And so being like, you know, at A, at a place where women have walk around, you know, half nude or nude when there's, you know, strangers, strange men around, it's like that to me is like quite shocking and like, you know, I wasn't like I was OK with it, but it it like hit me differently I guess the first couple of times that I like saw that. And so it's just been my own personal growth of like working through my traumas through this documentary too, which I didn't even realize that that was going to happen.

42:06 But it has been and like most of the women say, you know, we have had sexual trauma, but we do this like we're on stage is like it empowers us because they can just say no and mean no. You know, they if if they, if there's a customer like bothering them, they'll just be like, can you get this guy out of here? And like, he'll be thrown out. So it's like that like taking control of like I can tell this guy no and it's going to mean no like for for real. For real. So that side was very like inspiring and eye opening for me where I was just like wow, that's yeah, that's like a whole different take. Like I wouldn't have assumed, you know, I I don't think I could ever do it because But then again, like if you look at it from that way, it's like well that's very like inspiring.

42:55 And I thought it was like backwards I guess at first, but now it makes like total sense. So yeah, I've just been like, and yeah, I mean this, this whole process has really helped me be more confident and like figure out who I am too, like through all this because the women are so supportive of me and I'm like so supportive of that. So it's like this really cool. Like, I'm growing a lot like, you know, personally too through this whole process. That's so awesome. So when you decided that this project was something that you'd pursue, you mentioned your personal experience there was that.

43:43 Did that come into consideration? Did it push you away from wanting to do it? Did it make you want to explore it? That had to be a trip in itself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it pushed me away a little bit from it because I was like, you know, don't really want to like I'm I would consider myself pretty much healed from that trauma. But like I wasn't sure what would come up. You know, like especially like being in a club. Just simply being in a club or you know, seeing men look at women in that sort of way, you know, like, but it ended up being like even more healing, I guess, just because it again pushed me out of my comfort comfort zone.

44:31 But I also knew that I was safe, you know, the whole time too that I was like there and like you know I'm in control and and that. So it ended up being, like, very helpful with like pushing myself to, you know, deal with the uncomfortableness and like grow and heal. Absolutely, Yeah. And that's that could be another intended or not however you decide to do it. Another outcome of the project in general because I'm sure there's so many dancers all across the world that are in different places on that spectrum of healing compared to what's happening. Because I mean you're right I I think you mentioned it earlier but the the stats on like women who have experienced that those situations are insane.

45:29 So, and I'm sure there's some sort of whatever you want to call it there. There's a certain amount of dancers who that's one of the primary reasons they do what they do. I think So. Like that spectrum of healing, if you can move that needle in a way, is so so like deep. Yeah, yeah, it really is. And I think, like, it can go the other way too, which like I haven't personally seen, you know, or met any of the any girls that like go the other way. But it could also be like, you know, a little bit could be very triggering. And then you know, you could kind of spiral the other way too, which is like very sad and like I would hope that that doesn't happen often, but it could, I could, I could see, you know, myself doing something like that. So.

46:22 Absolutely. Yeah. Towards the negative side and that's some you know hearing the situation that you're you're sharing that's probably one of the beauties of that environment is we find we find well yeah I mean you're finding comforting community with people that you didn't know you would we all find comforting community and when you have those things in place different support systems it's more likely to go upwards instead of downwards. Similar to the we were talking about poverty earlier same concept when you know things we can often push things in a different direction but we're either fighting a force or going along with it. Right.

47:04 And we don't always have control over which one of those things it is. Do you find that heavy? Do you, do you find that heavy? Do you find it to be any type of, any type of burden or weight on your shoulders? When you think about how you're trying to share a story, what what else does that do you carry with that? Do you feel a certain weight with that? Yeah, huge. Like, I feel like a huge responsibility to like, protect the girls. You know, like, I don't ever want to put anything in the film that's going to make them uncomfortable or that, you know, like, is going to compromise their safety. And I think that, you know, it's such a touchy subject because people have such a preconceived notion that, like all of the strippers are drug addicts and they have daddy issues and traumas and all this stuff. But it's like, well, I mean, we all kind of do like we all have our.

48:02 We all have stuff in our in our, in our, you know, tank or. Whatever. Yeah, Yeah, exactly. And a lot of it's messy and it's just like, I don't want to like, like dwell on the negative, you know, of like a lot of the traumas and whatnot that these women have gone through, But their stories are their stories. So it is like, I do have to include some of the, like, gnarly details just to like tell, you know, tell their story and who they are. And it's like, it's easy because, like, they have been so honest and open with me. But also like on the back end, I'm just like, I hope I'm doing these girls proud because like, you know, it's a lot to sort through and it's a lot to I I just come at it of a like, I come at this whole project from a place of like, my heart is like on the table all the time.

48:52 And it's just like, I just want to tell their stories from like the best place that I can. So I just, I think it's just through love. It'll all like come together and love and support. Yeah. Yeah. So going back to that question about pushing you away or bringing you to it, did it along, you know thus far in the process has it helped in your in your journey like would you say it's it's been a net positive for you? Totally, Yeah. Like, unexpectedly too. You know, like, I've actually in my, like, personal life too. I've just learned to, like, set boundaries and kind of like it's, it's weird.

49:39 It's like been a trickle effect. Like it's just like it started as like, you know, healing more from my sexual trauma through all of this. And then the sisterhood and then, you know, just like, like not really caring what people think, I guess, too, which has been like, I'm a people pleaser. I've always been that way. And like, for whatever reason, something's clicking. And it's just kind of like, it might just be the subject matter being so taboo or whatever people want to say about it. But I've just been like, yeah, setting boundaries and like figuring out like, you know, who I want to surround myself with and the support system that that I do have from my chosen family of like, my friends have been like very, very supportive. And it's just been like helpful because I don't have, Yeah, I mean my family hasn't been like the most supportive. So that's been a little tough like just, but also like it's been good because then I can set boundaries and figure out those relationships and like how to have them I guess. Yeah, a lot of things in there.

50:52 Freeing in a way, right? Overall that that feeling is freeing. I don't want to dig too far, so feel free to go wherever you want, but that that seems kind of ironic isn't the word. It seems maybe unexpected because you mentioned that like you had a very, very supportive family of your dreams early on and then something content related can turn the turn the tides a little bit. Yeah, I think it's not it's content related, but it's also like I just like fell away from the faith a couple of years ago and haven't really looked back and I think that that really disappointed them. So that's been like one of the things that has been a struggle for us, like to try to find, you know, a common ground and like to not feel like a constant disappointment to them and stuff.

51:53 But yeah, I I think that kind of, you know, I I found myself more in my later 20s and now that I'm 32, it's like I feel very confident with who I am and I'm happy with who I am and like love myself and it's well, I'm getting there. But it's it's just been like I wish that they could just kind of like, you know support no matter what and it just hasn't been happening. So it's, yeah, just like finding a new relationship with my parents, I guess, at this age, in this point in my life. Yeah, yeah. Appreciate you sharing. Yeah.

52:35 Yeah. And there's probably that's probably some of the some of the comforting community right once you start having these conversations with with others at a deeper level right Because you that's not somewhere we often get to especially with strangers. Right. And I I wish we could more because there there's so much value in sharing authentic humanity and that you're probably you have a front row seat right now to all of those conversations and that has to be awesome. Yes, yes it is. Yeah, yeah. So thinking about that, what is the what, what kind of timeline are you on?

53:19 Like, how do you know when this thing is ready to go? Yeah, well, with my first film, I honestly like, had to schedule the premiere before I finished the film because I was like, if I don't give myself a deadline, like a hard deadline. You're a deadline. Person and I'm a procrastinator, so I think I was like editing. I was changing things up till like 2 hours before, like the premiere. Yeah, 'cause I was just like, this has got to change. This has got to change. But you know, when you're working on like art or something, it's like it's never done. How do you know it's done? So I don't know if I'll ever know, like when it's done, I think I'll just get to a point where I'll be like, OK, like, I need to put this out there to the world.

54:00 So I need to schedule a premiere and then I'll still be like feverishly editing 2 hours before. That is mind blowing to me. You edited something 2 hours before it premiered, Yeah. But, like, yeah. And then, of course, you know, I'm sitting there at the back of the theater or whatever, just like, Oh my God, I want to change. I should change that. Oh my gosh. You know, no one noticed anything. Like, everyone was like, oh, it's fantastic. It's great. And then I was just like, OK, then I'm then I'm done. Like, I'm just going to be too critical of my stuff. So I'm hoping to have everything filmed before March. And then I'm hoping to premiere like late spring summer.

54:41 Okay. So. So you're beginning to set that deadline. Under yourself, Yes, I. Am I love it? A really good friend of mine calls it being pressure motivated. Yeah, yeah, He says. He's very good at being pressure motivated because he's a procrastinator. Too. And that's I think I can empathize with that too. The the combination of being a bit of a procrastinator and then also a perfectionist at the same time. Another friend of mine calls herself a recovering perfectionist. And I think there's a lot of value in that, right, Especially in the creative realm. Because we were talking before we came on. You asked me some of the mistakes that had happened with the podcast. And similarly, I have one that drives me nuts. But no one would ever tell to the person they they, they don't even know.

55:30 And you know, that has to happen consistently, right? One thing I you know, this leads me to a question. You have to have so much footage that you you get. How do you pair that down into what you're going to use? What's your process? Because like you, it has to be, right? You have to it. Like there has to be some level of organization to it where you you jot down times when things that are gold are gonna go in. But what does that look like for you? How do you, how do you take all of that footage and plan what you're trying to get out of it? And then it, I'm sure it ends up being not what you planned. And then how do you turn that into, you know, whatever, 50 hours of footage into a one hour documentary? How'd that happen to you?

56:25 First one? How's it going with this one? How do you plan it? Yeah, well it's funny because when I for my my salary job, my day-to-day job, I'm an editor mostly. So I work closely with another editor. So there's two of three of us total at the company Shift Visuals and two of us edit. So like in any given situation like we might need to jump into each other's projects. So like we have the same like you know we're going to sub clip everything. So it's like you take bits from the interview and then you just like write yourself notes on it like you can do it on the clip itself. So you just say, you know, like they said this and whatever and then you can like it's very organized. That is not the case with like my personal stuff. I literally just go through like I put the entire interview on a timeline and then I will cut like my voice out of everything. So like, I'll just listen to like the answers. And then if I think that it will fit in somewhere to the film, I like just move it up a little bit And then like, so then I just take all this like pieces that are moved up and then I just transfer them to another timeline. And then I go through and I think like, OK, now I got to organize this, but like nothing's labeled. So you know, I I get too excited. I think about like getting stuff together that I kind of bypassed the whole organization part and sometimes I get burned later on. But so far it's been OK.

57:58 That's what drives your passion. Other than lining up the audio that's been it's been a journey, yeah. I could see that. I could see because you come across like, oh this, this 45 seconds is fantastic, but how does it fit in? Oh, this 30 seconds is great. And I was trying to picture that in my mind. Like, you know, since we started talking about being on the show and everything, I was thinking about how that would that would like. I'd have to figure out how to do that because like, me too, it would be messy and I would have things everywhere and I'd get excited in the moment. I'd have a big pile of things that like, oh goodness, now how does that go in a line? Yeah, yeah.

58:39 Does it help doing the having the first one done or is the process way different? It's way different, honestly, just because it's in English. This one's in English, the other, the other one was a foreign language. So that whole editing process was like totally different because I had, you know, my translation document up and then I had time code. So I literally just kind of cut like I would just cut and drag. Like it wasn't, I wasn't like second guessing like whoa, you know, do I have like another way that she said this or he said this, you know, But it's just like, oh, well, that's what that is. And I'm going to slide it in there. So it's it's a different, different process for sure, 'cause like now I'm looking for more like, you know, inflections and tones and things and like. But, you know, it's hard for me to like cut things out to where like I'll just put like way too much of this, like kind of the same story or like too much of the same way that someone said something.

59:44 And it isn't until like I, you know, I showed my small group of friends and they were like, oh, well, she said that like twice, Like you don't need that other part in there. And I was like, Oh yeah, that's true. You know, I just, I'm like a more information rather than less. And I need to like. That's one thing I'm trying to work on. Is like just. Cutting more stuff that like is fluff I guess out of things. Yeah. Is it invigorating to have a passion project going when you do it day-to-day too? Yeah, it's funny, 'cause when I listen to your and Maddie Maddie's conversation, you guys talked about this and it's like I was thinking about that. I mean it's tough like some days I'm like, I don't wanna, you know, sit at a computer and edit into the night and like be doing this. But I think like, because it's such a path, like I'm so passionate about this one that it's like it really, I'm excited to look through footage like it doesn't feel like work. Like, I it's, I don't know it's hard to explain. It's almost like a like out of body experience sometimes because I'm like oh man, like have I been sitting for three hours now Like, you know, I need to get up and walk around because like it's, yeah, it is time consuming, but it's also like it consumes me totally.

1:01:03 And I haven't felt burned out at all, knock on wood. That's awesome. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We did talk about that because like in that conversation and now again when I hear that I I put my, I try to put myself back in the shoes of like, you know, 40 hours a week making content. And then would I have started a podcast at that time And as you know, conversations tell me yes, that I'm getting to have with awesome people tell me yes. But I don't know if my drive would have let it happen because it's like I I I don't know. I felt like I needed time away. But that's awesome to hear that it still is an escape. Even you're doing the same, you know the same clicks. Yeah, right, right.

1:01:44 Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And like, I mean, my, my, my bosses have been amazing, too. Like if we don't have, you know, a whole lot going on, like they're like just work on your stuff because you're still like working on your skills and perfecting your skills and whatnot and learning new things and yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So they're they're supportive of the X. That's 100% key. That's awesome. Yeah. So they've helped like shoot it. And they've helped with audio and stuff and like graphics, because I'm not a graphics person. So they'll help with graphics. And yeah, it's like amazing that they're supportive. Yeah. So now, when you think of it from film school until now, what what is your reaction to where you've gotten to?

1:02:38 It's interesting. So like film school, I I loved my professors. I learned a lot. I graduated in three years instead of four, but they have not. My school itself has not been like supportive at all of like my projects, which has been really weird even. The first one. Yeah, yeah, not at all. Yeah, I mean it's a whole thing. We could do a whole nother podcast on that. But yeah, it's it's been like I've questioned myself like a lot and it's. I think it's just because like I have a lot of non support in my life too, you know, like from my my family and then like my school.

1:03:23 Not, you know, it's like I wish people could just look past the like subject matter and look at the actual story and what I'm trying to do. Because it is like it's a good thing And I think just like I question myself like am I, is this like what I should be doing? Because, you know, you have Angel and devil on your shoulder and it's just like, you know, it's like I have a voice in my head that like I sometimes try to bring myself down. And I don't know why, like where that comes from, but it is like I question myself. But I also have to remember like I am. I my first film won awards. Like I'm an award-winning filmmaker like.

1:04:03 And that's, you know, what kind of lifts me back up out of the whole like, oh gosh, you know, is this good? Like, what am I doing? You know, I question myself a lot, but I think you know that comes with the the confidence and the self love. That I'm learning through this whole process too is like I'm doing it. Absolutely, Yeah. It's so hard in the creative space too, because our. Everyone has opinions too. Yep, everyone. And a lot of the, I believe a lot of that perfectionism comes from that feeling you're talking about. Because in the creative realm, no one is ever going to judge the content more than the creator. No one ever looks at it the same way or in the same level of depth.

1:04:52 And that's on one side what makes a lot of great things great. But on the other side, it would. It's what keeps a lot of great things from being great, because there's all kinds of stuff in the world that is sitting on a shelf somewhere because of that feeling. Right. Right. And that's a travesty. It is, yeah. Yeah, it really is. And I I think, like at, you know, at least I can put myself out there, you know, and if it's not good, it's not good. But you know, it doesn't matter, 'cause these are, I think, you know, all art should make you feel something. And like, I I want to feel and I want people to feel. And I I think that, you know, if it's sitting on a shelf somewhere like that is so sad because it's like you, you know, what's that going to do?

1:05:45 What's that going to do for the world and for people? So I I just, I hope that people, you know, don't do a whole lot of that and they just can't put themselves out there. Yeah. So we talked a little bit about your trying to find distribution for seeds. So it's temporarily kind of on a shelf right now. And what what is that like? What is that like as like a, you know, a filmmaker, what's that process? It's, it seems pretty heavy and really in depth and and with a lot of moving parts. What? What's been your experience with trying to find like distribution and? I actually haven't even really done much Like I've, you know, I don't really know like who to talk to I guess like about that whole process.

1:06:33 I did have a a friend. He works for PBS and I was like, dude, if you can get seeds of life on PBSI would die happy. Like that's like my goal is to have like a film of mine on PBS, do like the independent lens, you know. And so that's, I haven't really heard much and that was kind of a recent thing, like maybe a couple months ago. But I yeah, I don't know, like, I don't really know where to start, I guess with that whole process because it's just kind of daunting to me. And it's like, then I get, because I've done a few film festivals where they say, you know, we could put your film online like through our database. But then I'm thinking like, well, can people download it then?

1:07:18 And like, then I'm not going to like, not that I need to make money, but like, I want to know where my film is. Like living, I guess. You know, like, yeah, I don't know. Maybe it's just like, I just need to let go of it, I think. But it's like, hard to trust people too. And like, OK, you know, what are you going to be using my film for? And like are you going to like download it and like re edit things? You know, like, I don't know, maybe I'm crazy, but that's the stuff I think about. I think there's a conversation there. One of my favorite music artists is named Jason Isabel, and he got asked a lot or he got asked a question that's floating through my mind right now. But he hearing you say that it was about his song. He has a song that's been covered by a lot of different people.

1:08:06 And then it was covered by one person in particular who I think shortly afterwards had some like, PR negative stuff happen. And it kind of contrasts what Jason Isabel believes in and see and kind of like stands on. And he had such a fascinating answer to this. He talked about how what he and it's a little bit different because songs are covered all the time. Nobody covers a movie. You know, like that's copyright, but. At the same time, you're talking about your your, your creative thing and what's gonna happen with that thing afterwards.

1:08:51 And and his stance on it was that he created something, you know, beautiful enough and worthwhile enough that somebody else wanted to make theirs. And I thought that was really, really moving to look at it like that because in that particular instance, he, most of us, and he probably felt immediately at the same way until he thought through. And he's like, this isn't how I wanted to go. This isn't this, isn't it. But to be able to get to that spot where it's like, you know, I created this thing and then I did it because I I wanted to, you know, probably change the world. Yeah, share it with the world. Yeah, yeah. And once it's there and it exists, you lose all control. Of it.

1:09:39 Kind of. And that's just what I thought about as you were saying, that it's like, you know the the birdie flies sometime, right? And that's why you made it. Yeah. And I feel protective of it. But at the same time, like, why? You know, like, I guess I was thinking too of, like my projects is like my children, 'cause it is like something that I'm like, I've, you know, grown and cultivated and like, then release, and then it's like, now what happens? It's kind of out of my control, you know? But you're right, like, I I shouldn't be. So I guess I shouldn't be so worried about like, 'cause I made it for people to watch.

1:10:20 So like, I shouldn't be like. People got to see it, yeah. I think I throw it on YouTube. Well, the thing I'd be worried about is trying to recoup some of the fundage that it cost to make it. Happen, right. I think I did that film for like 5 grand. That was it. Really. Yeah. Travel and everything. Travel and everything. Maybe it was 10, but yeah, it was like cheap, cheap, cheap. It'd be hard to get there for five grand right now. Probably. So you mentioned that earlier, renting equipment versus buying equipment. Did did you rent equipment there or did you travel with it all? Traveled with it and it was, so that was the other thing. Too. That wasn't 5 grand. They get you with those weight things. So we just we took them in carry ONS. So we didn't even check.

1:11:06 We didn't check any bags. So like we had like bare bones like gear wise like nothing. And that was, it was actually mostly because, like, they would ask you questions like, you know, what do you got in your, like, where you going? Like, where what do you have in your bags? Like because when you we flew into the Dominican. So then when we were leaving that country to go into the next country, it was very much like, you know, like, oh, you have camera gear, like, what are you doing with that? So it was we had to kind of be like quiet about it and secretive and just say like, oh, we're we're visiting friends and family, like, and 'cause if they would have, I mean, they could have just confiscated stuff too. Like, because it's kind of the Wild West in those countries, Like, people will just take stuff. So that was really scary.

1:11:57 Think about how devastating that would have. Been Oh my God. Well, and I hadn't then how much I would have to like. I would have to pay, you know, company that I rented the gear from for the whole, the whole thing. Like for the lost gear, it's like, Oh my God, I can't even think about that. Yeah, maybe a little bit less stress with this project in that way at least. So much. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No traveling, no feeling dumb because I don't know what people are saying around me like. Yeah, yeah. So if you had to, if you describe the feeling now of what you're feeling about your project, how would you put it into words with gold?

1:12:37 I'm just like, so excited to have the opportunity to like, tell these stories. I mean, I I've come a long way with myself learning a lot. And also, like, I just want, and it's not, you know, people always say like, oh, do you want like men to have a certain reaction to like, when they see the film. And it's like, no, I like, I mean, I know women who are, you know, like I'm not going to watch that like or you know, like uncomfortable with dancers and and whatnot. But I just want like society to, I want this to change the way society looks at dancers.

1:13:19 And like I want to touch as many people and, you know, change their minds or open their minds, I guess to that, you know, these are all someone's daughter. You know, these are all women who are getting themselves out of really tough situations through this temporary job in their lives. You know, it's like it shouldn't be such a, Oh my gosh, you know, we can't look at the strip club. We can't talk about the strip club, like keep driving, don't stop at the strip club. But it's like why not? You know, like I I think that I just want to like open people's eyes and minds to like we can talk about this stuff and we can learn about it and understand where these women are coming from and hear their stories and support them too. So.

1:14:04 Absolutely. There's so much value in long form conversation. There is. Unbelievable, Paige, it was awesome chatting with you. Thank you so much. It was awesome. Thank you so much. Yeah, I'm sure you're going to have a fantastic just experience with creating the documentary and there has to be a captive audience ready to take it in. And I and I hope, I hope you let him. Yes, thanks, Paige. I and I'm just grateful because you know, I felt like I haven't had quite a platform to talk about this, you know, locally, I guess in the community. And I'm just really grateful that you approached me and wanted to have this conversation.

1:14:45 So thank you. Thanks for giving me a voice, my. Pleasure. Thanks Paige. None.