Michael J. Brown - Persistence, Teaching, Gifts & Heart Too Big for Sales - Ep. #47

0:00 What's up friends, Welcome back to Rooted Wisconsin. Appreciate you for clicking another episode. Appreciate you for being you. Today's episode is with Michael Brown, one of my favorite humans on the planet. I've had the pleasure of knowing Michael for about 6 years now and one of my favorite things about our friendship is every time you leave a conversation with Michael, you leave thinking about something differently. I cherish that about our friendship and I'm pumped up to share it with you. Today we talked about a bunch of great stuff. He was one of ten kids. So he talks about his family. His mom was white, his dad was black. They weren't allowed to get married when they got together. How crazy is that to think about? That's what brought them to Wisconsin. They were able to get married. Here he talks about teaching his mom how to read. What kind of gift is that?

0:43 Teaching your mother how to read. Such a poignant story. Really cool. And another story that he tells is a supervisor in his career. We get down in the career path and he talked about a supervisor telling him he had a heart too big for sales. Such a good piece of advice that molded his career direction and changed his trajectory of his life, motivating people, financial health and well-being. We talk about his speaking organization and just life in general. Excited to share it with you. Big shout out to our sponsors, Riverside Pizzeria of Green Bay. You've got to stop in. You got to get the Pepperoncini's. They're fantastic. And some really, really big sponsorship news coming out very soon.

1:26 Keep an eye on Instagram, keep an eye on TikTok. Like follow and subscribe wherever you're watching this. And exciting news coming very soon. But until then, here it is, Michael Brown. So have the ways we try to lift our neighbors. Where did the love go? I want to get it all caught up now. And that's, that's, that's a lot of life. It's the instant gratification nation that we live in. That's what it is.

2:11 Yeah, I heard you talking about that recently and I there's a lot of validity there, a lot of validity there. I thought you made an interesting point between the instant gratification and the video game culture. I thought that was such an interesting point. I can't even remember where I were we talking about this or was it in a thing? I can't remember. Right around that E sports, I don't know it again, the arcades where you put the quarter in and you got to play your life away and once that life is gone, either there's somebody behind you ready to play the game or you got to add another quarter. Now again, I see kids, they get down 2030 and it's like quit now they get to vote. There's a Rocket League game that it's like 3 players and one player votes to quit because you're down to 0. There's still 3 minutes left to go in the game. Like why would you just quit?

3:02 Let's just restart like no, no, no grit fight back, get score one stop one right back in the game. And and that I don't think we had we, we don't learn it enough, I guess yeah, not to say they don't have it. We just don't learn it enough. It's not, it's not celebrated enough, I guess, yeah. That's a good way to put it, right? Yeah, it's not. I've never thought about it that way. But absolutely it's not celebrated enough because like we we celebrate for things like, you know, when you're thinking of youth, we celebrate thing 1A listening culture, which isn't always good. Like, you know, of course it is in some aspects, but it isn't holistically good.

3:47 But then we celebrate like hitting a deadline or like checking something off of your list and, and moving on to the next thing when really, man, that's weird to think about because it's the, I mean, how I teach a lot is it's a lot of it's about the process. It's some of it's the area. But at the same point or at the same time, without celebrating that process and celebrating the end goal, we've cultivated that. Thing I think we tried but the participation trophy's got a bad rap like but. Yeah. Kids that quit in the middle of the season, there's something to be said for that one that's stuck in it for 8 weeks or 10 weeks or 12 weeks. I mean, yeah, maybe they didn't work hard. Maybe they didn't earn a starting spot. Maybe they didn't hit a home run. But I mean, in this generation, to see something through for an entire summer, you know, at the AAU basketball, I've, I've watched a number of kids, very talented kids jump from one team to another team, from another team to because it's not going their way.

4:56 Like I want, I want the ball in my hands. This team's not giving it to me versus earning it. They're like, I'll go to the next team and that again. So to start something and finish it, How can we celebrate that without just a participation trophy? But celebrating the participation and showing up to work every day and putting on your hard hat and running the lines and hitting the drills and hitting the weights or whatever it is you know, to start something and finish. At least conveying the value of it and conveying what it means to, you know, do it and why it means a lot to push through something right, Even if ultimately a lot of times our gut will tell us it's not for us or something like that.

5:40 But seeing something through to the end. And that's a. Let's just just finish it, just it because it becomes a habit, right? So if you are able to quit, then quitting becomes the habit. So even if you're down 40 in that game and there's 30 seconds left and you, you hit reset or you quit, now the next game you're going to be more likely to quit versus. Let's just see it through. I'm going to try and score one or make that game within the game when you're when you're working on that, I want to score one or I'm not going to let them score again or, or, or Teaching them that game within a game allows them to hold off a little bit, that sacrifice for a little bit longer, less than the instant gratification.

6:23 Yeah, This is why I was so excited to have you on the podcast, but thinking about this for a bit because every time we talk, it never fails. Every time we talk, we talk about something that I look at in a little bit different way, and that's what I appreciate about. You, I appreciate you looking at it, right? So most people have that closed mindset, but you're open, right? Yeah, yeah. And like that. That's the appreciated part. It's like, Nope, that's not the way we do it. That's one of my wife's most frustrating thing is, is when people say, well, we've always done. It that way. That's the worst. We've always done it that way. Yeah, yeah, that's probably true. But let's let's think of a different way to do it. So yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

7:03 That's why, that's why I was excited every, it seems like every time. So now we get to do an hour and a half of it and then and do that, you know, I, I know a lot now, but I want to know more. Where does where does Michael Brown start? Oh man, whenever I give my little elevator speech, I I try and start with youngest of 10 kids, right? So if that sets the foundation, I'm the youngest of 10 kids. So I'll do anything to entertain. I love attention. I love being around people. My mom was white, my dad was black, so I come from an interracial couple. They weren't allowed to get married when they first got together. So that that part of my foundation, my mom. Didn't really.

7:46 They weren't allowed. To get married they they met in Indiana. They were not allowed to get married in 1958. They moved to Wisconsin in 1959 where they were allowed to get married. So that's just my parents. So when people talk talk about history and so far back, Nope that my parents I'm a I'm a relatively young adult and my parents were not allowed to legally get married. So I, I take a lot from that. I, I, I appreciate everything. I mean, do I am, I'm playing with house money. I am playing with this was this was not expected. So I got a good friend Quayson, right? Quayson, he talks about when he was younger, he had these plans of, of building skyscrapers in Japan, right? And we come from the same zip code in Milwaukee. I, I never thought that big in my entire life. I'd never thought about what I want to be when I grow up. I wanted to have a good job.

8:46 Air quotes being good. What does that mean? I didn't know what that meant, but I didn't have that kind of vision. So the fact that I am where I am, I kind of stumbled through it. I ended up coming full circle. I knew I wanted to teach when I was younger. Oh, did you really? I did. I did. I did. I wanted to teach 4th grade. So 4th grade. I felt like as a kid, 4th grade was where especially with young boys, either they went left or they went right. So either they came back with a lot of attitude for fifth grade or they came back and they were some of the better students for fifth grade. I felt like that was a, an inflection point, right? So I wanted to teach Milwaukee Area Public Schools 4th grade to kind of be that mentor, that guide.

9:30 So I went to UW, Stevens Point, went into elementary education, found out they paid like $17,000 a year. Then I switched my major to business. So luckily it came full circle and I now work with older students. But yeah, that's where that's where the heart is, is is to, to teach again, because my mom didn't read or write. I value education. I value the ability that people can learn. I ended up teaching my mom to read and write, well, not what she always scribbled her name, but to read. In 2000. She was 49 years old, so kudos to her. So we we did the Hooked on Phonics. They used to have the cassette tapes. There was like 10 cassette tapes. We got through cassette #3 and then all of my family came home for Christmas and she read to him. Man.

10:26 And my older siblings were, you know, they were crying. And it was like, my brother was like, OK, now read this page. And they were so excited for her, right? So that that seeing them be excited for her and she was excited to prove it to them. I'm like, Yep, I want to teach and that and that to see that light bulb go off in them and they go off in her was it was it was powerful. It was fun. But then after that, she was done. She's like, I proved I could do it. That's who my mom was. She's like I proved I could do it. That's that's all I need. So then being in that position, did she was her awareness of it, did she instill some of that like educate yourself mentality or did you chase it because of your awareness of the situation? So youngest of 10, there was plenty of routes to go the wrong way.

11:19 I had one brother graduate college 10 years ahead of me. So he was more of the I want to do that. And then my father wasn't in the house. He was around in the city. I can see him whenever I wanted to, but he wasn't in the house. So my next oldest brother kind of guided me that way. Like, Nope, you're not going to be like this. You're going to be like that. So one story I like to tell is my first semester at Stevens Point, I came home and I was like, can't do it. I can't. I'm from Milwaukee, I'm from a city. I mean, there's something to do everywhere we go. I'm up in Stevens Point, There's not. I play basketball a lot, but there's nothing to do. I don't want to be up there anymore. And it would have been a good battle, but my brother, my brother was like, well, we're going to fight. We're we're going to physically fight unless you go back. And he was like where he was like, I have been lifting weights a little bit then.

12:13 So he's like, it might hurt both of us, but we're going to fight unless you go back. And that was another one of those inflection points where like, I'm going to go back because the, the, the easy route will would have been a, I'm going to transfer to UW Milwaukee, but then I'm a 20 minute drive from school and then, oh, you know, it's raining. So I'm not going to make that drive or it's snowing. So I'm not going to make that drive or, and we didn't have online back then. So I don't know if I would have persisted, right. So that being on campus at Stevens Point, nothing else to do allowed me to focus on my studies a lot more. And and then so that was big that, that he was willing to do that for me because he knew the path I wanted to go on and he knew it would work out for me. So, and it has.

12:59 So when I tell people about education, like I've been without a job twice, but it was very, very short lived and by choice, right? So having that education gave me that. Not saying you're going to make a ton of money if you get an education, but having that education gives you options and that's what you want to do. It raises the floor. Yes, it raises the floor. Not only does it raise the ceiling, it raises the floor too. Youngest of 10 is hard for me to even think about. That's hard for me to even conceptualize, so I couldn't be more opposite. I'm an only child, so like youngest of 10.

13:40 That had to be fun. Chaotic. So much fun, so much fun. It was, it was a blast. It was always someone in the house, right? So we had cousins come stay with us for a while and live with us. So there was always someone there. You always. I had built in friends. My nephew and I actually went to college together 'cause we were only three years apart. So that's. Awesome. That's awesome. So I I when I got to point and I'm like, hey, this is my nephew. And they're like, you mean your cousin? I'm like, Nope, it's my nephew. No, I can't be your nephew. I know how the family structure works. Yeah, this is my nephew. I know words. It's just just it's just fine. This is my brother that we'll believe it at that.

14:20 So yeah, it was, it was, it was fun. It you appreciate quiet, but you don't need it. I appreciate quiet, but I don't need it. Like when I get around my family, it's like, it's like, it's like home, right? And you get it. Who can be louder? Who can be the loudest? Who can get the most attention? It's it's a good time. But then my wife has just a sister, one sibling, right? And, and both parents in the home and, and, and it's a completely different structured relationship that they have a family dynamic. So our kids have something similar to that, which I think we appreciate.

15:02 I think we appreciate. Probably. It probably made some of the, I don't know, some of the best parts about you. You is like, 'cause when I think of things you're really good at, like commanding a room you're good at, and you've had to with nine other kids and you, you had to command the room and, and know how to get attention and get across the message in a positive way. Absolutely. My wife and I started a little speaking platform 10 years ago entitled True Story. So my wife's middle name is true, as in my youngest son, his middle name is true. So when I start all my classes, I'm like, listen, you're going to hear me tell stories and they're all true. I have six brothers and three sisters. So someone in my family has experienced a little bit of a lot of it, right?

15:48 So, so all of these stories that we go through, it's based on something that that's where AT shirt comes from, based on a true story that it's just lived experiences. So I love sharing them so that hopefully someone can either be motivated by them or scared half to death which whichever 1 you want. Both sometimes, right? For. Sure. And that's one thing I wanted to talk about today 'cause it's one thing that I appreciate. And so, and a lot of times envy about you is your ability to, I've seen it countless times, your ability to recall a story or an activity or something that fits the moment perfectly. I I don't know if how was even the right question, but like where did you get that skill?

16:39 There's just so many stories up in this. No, it, it's a coping mechanism, I think. I think honestly, for me to understand certain situations, I have to relate it to another situation. So then then it takes the fear factor out of it for me, the fear of the unknown, Like, oh, no, remember. It's just like, oh, OK, I, I remember doing that. I remember being bussed out to Brown Deer High School coming from the inner city school and then taking that bus and, and sitting by yourself in the lunchroom for those first couple weeks. I remember that. And I can compare that to these new students coming in and not knowing anyone and I can relate to them in that way and hopefully they can relate to me. Same thing with having kids and having a kid at a very young age.

17:23 Like I want them to know I've experienced the struggles and I've experienced some really, really good times. So I want to help them relate to me. So then I try and find something relatable to every situation. That way, again, it takes the fear away from me. That's it. That's that's my goal is to not be scared on any not be afraid on any given day. So let me flip it real quick. What was it like being an only child? I don't know. It was it was good. It was good. I it's probably one of those things that your lens like is your lens right, So you don't get to see it through a different direction. But it was good, man.

18:03 I had there was a kid that lived across the the road for me who was my same my same age and he was my best friend little age, you know, growing up. So I never felt alone. Like any time I wanted to play, I'd go see Russell, you know, and I don't know, but you know what's funny about it is there's I love smashing down stereotypes and there's this stereotype of like only children being spoiled, right? That's a classic 1. And I think the the stereotype definitely lives true about being spoiled with attention. I definitely the attention is there from your parents and my parents were always but like my parents are frugal man and and I was not spoiled with things and I appreciate that.

18:48 No, at the time you know, you probably don't as a kid. Why can't I just get? Yeah, yeah. But that, that definitely that's when I can break down. I definitely was not things spoiled, but it was good man. I I that's why it's hard for me to think so. My wife has she had a fan of five kids. Nice. So like we've had that conversation about how our experiences are way different, but I don't know good. I I guess I would put it it was it was fine. So like, you played sports, Yeah. And then your parents would be in the stands. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yep. Anybody else? Very infrequently would even like grandparents or anything come.

19:32 I don't. So I don't know that my parents ever missed a game. My third sport was golf, so like that one wasn't one to come to. I was like. And it's funny because neither of my parents are athletic in practice or in really interest. They could care less, but that support system, yes, is another thing that you take for granted at the time. But then you look back upon it and you're like, OK, I see why it was so important, right. Because I'm never going to miss any of rivers things ever. Exactly. You know? Exactly. So, yeah, always in the stands, but no, extended, not not the same.

20:12 Yeah. So my mom didn't make it to any football game, any basketball game. My dad made it to 1 football game. But brothers, sisters, cousins, nieces, nephews like the the stands would be 10/15/20 people screaming that support that that big family support. It was something to do. So now we're in a Schwabenon, My boys are in a Schwabenon. We had a, we had a game in Waupun this, this season for basketball and my brother and, and his sons and his brother-in-law and my sister. And you know, so they had this, this network of people that they're not used to being at their home games. Because again, my sister, my, my wife has her sister and their family come and then her parents will come. But not having that big loud network. It's, it's by one whole section.

21:04 Just just clear out a whole section. And they are not quiet. They're not they they support with all of their chests, the whole yelling, screaming, yeah. So that that part when you talk about like support and support it having that big family, that big network was was good in that way because it's supplemented because my again, being the youngest, my parents were older parents. So I was a young parent at 18. So like my oldest will be 32 in two weeks and then I've got 17 and 16 now as of last week. So I've got a little bit of both and, and trying to keep up with these young kids. Is it it is tough. So I, I understand their, their, their commitment.

21:46 My parents having kids that could, you know, look after like they show me things and teach me to drive and, and take me to driver's in and all of those things. So we had that. It was like a supply chain. It was like a, it was like a report structure where you just report up the line and everybody messaged down and away so. Kind of a built in hierarchy. Yes, the hierarchy here it is. Yes, yes, yes. And that had to be tough to be Antenna 10 because the bottom of the bottom of the totem pole every time. Man, oh man, every single time. And it's still there. It's still there and I love it. I I love it. I love it because sometimes my head gets big and then they keep me nice and humble.

22:30 They they remind me where I'm from. So that's good. It's good. Life's good. Well, it's good. We'll get, you know, we'll get 100 views on this just just by immediately. And that's just it. I'm trying to keep it positive so I can share with them. Otherwise I can get into some stories that I couldn't share. No, I'm just kidding. No. Positivity is what you do. Absolutely. I it's again, there's there's two ways to look at everything, right? You can go to bad route, you can go to good route and why not think the best? Find the gift is the thing I live by. Love it. That is awesome. That is awesome. So and that's probably part of the reason you're really effective, as effective as you are at what you do. And I think that kind of leads into another question I have for you.

23:10 I was, I didn't know, we had never talked about you being the 4th grade teacher, but we had never talked about that. So early on you developed through that, you know, thinking about it like that, you you identified that supporting people was your thing. Like that's where you got satisfaction. That happened for me way later in my life. I was really achievement focused for a while as a young person up until, you know, I wasn't anymore. That's a bad way to put it. I didn't identify that supporting people was where I got passion. I thought it was by reaching achievements. But every time I'd take another step up the ladder and I I'd be like, OK, this is it. And then it's like, OK, it still feels the same.

23:52 It feels the exact same. It's fine. Yeah. So how did having that identified early and we'll talk about some of your like career path stops in a little bit, but how, how did you use that then to navigate after switching to business probably post graduation, what you decided to do, how did you use that to navigate that? So unfortunately, I didn't use it the right way. I, I, I allow again, becoming a young father, you, you lose some options where you can't chase your passion if you have to bring money home. So it, it ended up going into sales in order to make money as a single father trying to support a son at home.

24:39 You can't chase what you're passionate about, especially if it's only paying $17,000 a year, right? So we got away from that for a long time. I was in sales for 1010 years. So I was at Chase Bank and her name is Lori. Shout out to Lori. Lori brought me into the office and she said, Michael, have you ever thought about working for a nonprofit? I, it threw me off guard. I'm like, no, why? She's like, I think your heart's too big for sales. What, what do you, how's that even possible? She's like, Nope, it's, it's not a bad thing. It's you can talk to people and get them over the edge, but then you don't, you don't push them, right?

25:21 I'm selling credit cards and investments and auto loans and personal loans and I know they're going to do the wrong thing with it. So my heart just wasn't in it. And then this guy came in with a with a business card for the Fisk Financial Information and Service Center from the Goodwill. Her name was Eileen. So shout out to Eileen. Eileen worked there as a credit counselor. And I asked him, I said, can I have this card? And he's like, sure. So I went to visit with her and she counseled people on financial literacy. So it was kind of the best of both worlds. It was teaching and then with the business background, with the personal finance that I had been working in for a number of years. And I'm like, I'd love to work here. She's like, that's great. It's a great place to work, but we're not hiring. We're not hiring.

26:06 So I think once a month I would check the Goodwill site just to see if they were hiring. And it was like 11 months later and her position came open and then I went and applied for it and I got the interview. And I'm like, you don't Remember Me, do you? And she's like, no, I had walked into her office on a cold call asking for the job. And so then I ended up getting the job. It didn't pay much more than that teaching a position, but being married at the time, it allowed me, it afforded me the opportunity to having two salaries that I could take a step back. And I called Lori because probably one year into working at the Goodwill, I felt whole. I felt like I had stopped working, like I'm no longer working. I'm talking to people about their finances and trying to help them find a route out.

26:51 Sometimes you got to go left, sometimes you got to go right. Sometimes you need a complete reset, like a bankruptcy or a foreclosure. Having those hard conversations came easy to me because of all of my history. So it I found my home again. And so I called Lori. I told her thank you, like thank you for it couldn't have been easy, right? As a manager, you want all of your, you know, direct reports to succeed. So to have a conversation like that, Hey, have you ever thought about a different career? That probably wasn't on her bucket list of items that she wanted to do, but she did that and and it put me back on the teaching path. So the Financial Information and Service Center, I had an agreement with NWTC to bring in a financial coach.

27:33 So I became the financial coach, credit counseling, financial coaching. I was at the college and honestly, for the first time I realized instructors were people at that point. I mean, because I saw college professors as like, you don't even, you don't talk to them. You might talk to their assistant or you e-mail them maybe, but you don't talk to them face to face. Like they are all distinct. But everybody at NWTC has been cool from day one, Like just just regular people impassioned about helping people learn. And then again, I found another home. So it was.

28:14 It's been, I haven't worked since 2012. But don't tell anybody no. It hasn't felt like work since 2011, 2012, just doing what we do. What an amazing story. Do you think you would have done it without that conversation with that immediate supervisor or would you just kept on selling? I would have kept on selling. I would have kept on selling. I had my older son had moved back to Milwaukee and so I had 2-3 year old and a one year old at home. And although we had two salaries, it's still the the pressure from society as the man, you have to work, you have to bring in a check, you have to pay for things you have to. So that pressure. I don't think I would have thought, hey, let me take a step back and make half the amount of money for a year or two and then do something that you actually like. So again, shout out to my wife or yeah, putting up with me during that time.

29:05 But yeah, it was it was definitely societal pressures. I wasn't mature enough at that point to know things could be done differently. Yeah, that's that specific societal pressure is something that we've never really gotten to on the podcast, but it's so relevant and it's so valid. And at least we're in a space where it seems like as a country, men's mental health comes up a little bit more than it did at one point. Finally. But, and I think that exact thing is a big part of it, yeah, it's a big piece that 'cause you know that that pressure does exist. And I think a lot of times it's it might even be more self-imposed.

29:51 Yeah, absolutely than anything. Absolutely, yes. Yes, it's something just hearing that is going to stick with a lot of people. There's a copious amount of people, large percentage that are didn't have that conversation with their supervisor and they're going to go to work or they're at work right now selling something and they're sitting in the chair saying that's me. And then that boils out in a lot of different ways. Yep. Yeah, it does. And that's just it. That, that if so, in I got a long story. You want a long story? Yeah, Stevens Point, class of 1998, May of 1998. I walk across stage May 18th. My son's birthday is May 28th, where he's going to turn 5. My goal was to graduate college before he turned 5. So I walk across stage.

30:39 I carry my son across stage with me to a standing ovation. And my brother, the one that made me go back to school, records it with the cap on. So there's no evidence of it. He never took the cap off the camcorder. But that's fine. We know it happened, right? We got pictures. But two weeks later, I got a letter in the mail saying you didn't graduate. You are two classes short, actually, one class short. I had a sales class that was a required course. I was taking 18 credits that last semester. And my counselor said, you're going to hurt yourself. You don't need to take this many. You can drop one of those classes instead of taking 6. I took five and then I got a letter saying you got to come back. And again, we didn't have the Internet back then. So I had to go back for a full semester to Stevens Point. Good thing is, you know, silver lining. I ended up taking sales and insurance. Those are the two classes that were in my business program. But I took healthy relationships, I took meditation and yoga, so I took those to fill out my full 12 credit course minimum.

31:48 But the healthy relationships class taught me about emotions and the teacher. So this is 1998, so this is 2627 years ago. They have the emotions of glad, sad, mad, and scared. Just those four. Glad, sad, mad, scared, all based on expectations. If you get what you expect, you are glad. If you don't get what you expect, you are mad or you are sad. If you don't know what to expect, you are scared. Men 27 years ago only knew mad and glad because if you were scared, you were told to buck up. If you were sad, you were told.

32:33 Men don't cry, right? So those two emotions not being watered or promoted within young men causes us to lash out with anger when you don't understand something or if there's a fear, if there's a sadness. And then on the flip side, she said women don't know how to be mad. She said women know, glad they know, sad they know, scared. And then my good friend says, well, you didn't know my mom. It's because my mom definitely knew how to be mad, right? So and then she said, let me let me give you a little story. Have you ever heard this? You've got your girlfriend in the passenger sheet and you ask what's wrong and she says nothing. How you doing?

33:21 I'm fine. Is she fine? Nope. She's probably mad. But again, they've been told to control their emotions. Like don't lash out. Don't, don't show anger, scared, sad and glad are what you are allowed to do. So then between that, those emotional things where we miss in society from male to female, trying to develop those. So that was one of the things in 4 1/2 years of college, one of the things I remembered most in my last semester when I wasn't supposed to be there. And I still use it in my team building problem solving class. We talk about emotions and emotions within teammates and then about expectations.

34:03 Setting proper expectations. Not you don't have to lower your expectations, you don't have to eliminate expectations, but setting proper expectations is a part of emotional intelligence. So we talked through that in teams and I bring up that story every time like that. Again, I would not have learned that had I not been required to go back for 1/5 semester, that it cost me a little bit of money, didn't allow me to get into my career right away, but it put me on the path where I'm supposed to be. So how can you be angry about it, right? So it it that's how it is. Yeah, there's a lot there. There's a lot that we can talk about. One Piece I this is probably five years ago now, I had a chance to do like this really in depth emotional intelligence work.

34:50 And it, it was all about like identifying like subconscious triggers of why how you react, you do to certain scenarios. As far as like human development goes, one of the most impactful things I've ever done. And it was, you know, it was through the lens of work. Here's how to do that. Team build, problem solve, collaborate. But it probably helped me more outside of work. Than anything applications to it. Yeah, especially in like marriage, like being a better partner and understanding, you know, it's weird to think about, but and waiting until or like having it not happen until you're in your mid 30s of, of being like, oh, here's why I act like a Jackass when this happens.

35:35 You know, like that was really eye opening for me. And that's not surprising. That's not a surprising one that you remember and use because, you know, that's a different direction, what I was just talking about. But bringing it back to you know what, what matters and, and what I guess is memorable and stuff like that, Like that's a poignant moment in life. Even identifying that. And then that gives when you know that, then it gives you the license to act accordingly. Yes, that's missing from the men's mental health. Thing yes, right, and and choose it like just yeah, you choose that emotion is available to you. Choose it if you choose to use it. I mean, if you are sad, be sad.

36:24 I mean, if if you want to look at the brighter side of things and say, you know what, I can be sad, but I'm going to be happy about XYZ, then knowing you choose it. Don't just do it as a default or I'm not allowed to be that that part of it. It's is unique, I think, but I think we are coming a long way since our our parents, you know, our parents probably as far as with child rearing and all those other things, men are doing a lot more of the responsibilities. And it's not like a woman go do this and make this for me. So those kind of things, I'm sure they still exist in some places, but that that line has been blurred on whose job is what job. And that again, along with emotions, learning to to cope with that and being emotionally intelligent is, is something that I think most people can learn.

37:11 Yeah, more. And there's nothing that'll develop you helping nurture a toddler. Nothing. Or a kid. Absolutely. Absolutely. It just keeps getting better and better, Brad. It just keeps getting better and better. It is. Yeah, it is. Teenagers are awesome. Yeah. I was. It's hilarious you say that. Just yesterday I was talking with a colleague and hadn't seen her in a while and it was a kind of in a group setting and I walked into the office and the kind of the blanket like how you doing? And you know me by now. I I don't want the I don't want the canned response. I want what's going on in your life?

37:52 What's going on? And the first couple I got and then I got to the third one. I was and how are you? And and tell me for real. And she has a daughter that's 15 and she says, you know, it sucks. It sucks real hard right now. Difficult going through a tough patch and and like you're like. Yes, I can learn from this. Yes. Tell me, tell me about it, you know, And I'm sure there's a just like anything else, the challenges change and probably even get bigger and conversations change. You're built for it though. Absolutely. We're here. We're here it is. That's how it's supposed to be. So my mom who passed away 10 years ago, wait, this, this was my, my son was 1617 at the time, my older son.

38:35 And I'm like, man, I can't wait for him to be 18 so I can. And she's like, well, at 18, the problems just get bigger and you have less control. So what are you waiting for this? And that was kind of her way of saying there's all those great quotes that, you know, this is life, like, can't wait for this to pass or wait for that to pass it. And my mom had all of those quotes without being the poet. She just that's, that was her life. Like, hey, after 18, you still worry about the kids. You've got less control over the kids. They're driving, they're off to college, they're doing God knows what. And you're still, they say your heart's outside of your body. You're, you're still concerned and worried about them.

39:18 Treasure these toddler moments when you can control the problems a little bit. Somewhat. Yeah, a little bit. We'll say a little bit. But then, yeah, they just grow and they become different. And again, it's, it's love living it. My, my brother says when when you ask him how he's doing, he says he's 6 feet ahead of the game because because he doesn't want to be underground, right? So 6 feet ahead of the game. And that's his canned response. But then once you dig into it, like we know, as far as my brother and I come, we, we know where we've come from and and all the blessings we've. Had is this the brother that was a mentor to you of some ways, like the one that kind of set you off in a direction you talked about earlier and. I followed.

40:01 He's the he's the one that went to college first. So he's, so he's got an automatic response. He's got an automatic. He's. Is that why you do it? He's a successful business owner in in Virginia DC area. So for my college, the the real graduation in December of 98 because I had to go back in May of 99, he took me to the Bahamas for my graduation as part of the sales conference. He won the trip. I was his plus one and I watched him work the room professionally. Just talking to this person. He would take a conversation from Group A and bring it to Group B. You know what I heard and he just heard it 5 minutes ago. But he would hit and then it would keep people talking and keep people.

40:45 And that was, I just watched with adoration and I was just, I was stunned. But we went golfing and that was my first time ever doing 18 holes. I'd never I practiced and for gym they showed me how to hold it, but I'd never done 18 holes 1st hole. And again, it's been 25 years. You can make up numbers, but I hit it straight and I hit it really, really far. So far that when it dog leg to the left, the ball went over the trees. So I lost it. That was my first hit off the tee. I don't think I ever hit another one past 50 feet. I mean the the whole time he's like let the club do the work.

41:25 Let the, I'm like, what? What do you mean? What do you mean by he's like you're picking your head up and you're trying to dig into just calm down and let the club do it. But I never hit. They went straight, but I was topping the ball and not going very far. But we were probably on the, I'm going to say 7th or 8th hole and we were looking out and there were 4 palm trees straight up with the ocean behind it, right? And I grew up on 46th in Congress. Not the best neighborhood, but not a bad neighborhood at the time. And he was like, man, imagine if mom and dad can see us now, like, and that was our moment. Like, wow. Like we've come such a long way. And then another brother says, and he was in the military. So I don't know if this is a military saying or whatever it is, but he says we've done so much with so little for so long.

42:11 We are now qualified to do anything with nothing, right? So I've been poor before. So I know I can be poor. I haven't been exactly rich yet with, with money, but rich, rich with, with experiences and family. But we are very secure financially in my in my family, which has been a blessing. So each day for me is I have fun as a poor person. So not that I want to be poor, but again, life is what you make of it. And, and any kind of opportunities would just be an opportunity. That would be it. We had our scare last month with, you know, changes at the college and something that helped me was saying, you know what, I've been there before, so it's going to be all right, right. So that that part of it having him with his saying of 6 feet ahead of the game and the other one saying we've done so much with so little for.

43:11 So like, those kind of things make me on a day-to-day basis know that it's gonna be fine. Everything's gonna be, I mean, better than fine, better than fine. Yeah, and you can't control it. You can't control regardless. Yeah, anytime. That's another life adage. Anytime you try to control something too much, it's like life hands you a dose of humbleness. So. Yes, absolutely. Just don't even try. Absolutely. Just what an awesome. Just ride. The wave. Ride the wave. Ride the wave. Absolutely. You got to actually, was that part of that training or was it something else? But there's that be a surfer thing, the whole concept of being a surfer and like, you're not going to control the ocean, but if you maneuver the waves correctly, like, you'll make it. Absolutely, and you might fall.

43:58 You will probably, yeah. I can swim, but I can't tread water, so surfing is out for me. Same, exactly the same. My wife makes fun of me all the time. She tells me I can't swim and I said that's a lot. I can swim. I could swim from here 500 yards away. I can't stay in one spot that's not swimming. My dad is not swimming and I can't do it. I can't do it, Brad. I can't do it. Isn't it? OK, so I hear you must feel the same way. It's so, and I use this a lot too, because I try not to like make things that I think are easy. It's easy to come out like it is easy. And when you're telling others, but I always think of this when I'm getting too far down that path, because when when you tell people that you can't tread water and they're like, you just do this. All you have to do is.

44:47 This with your hands. How can you now and kick your feet? I'm like the faster I do this and the faster I kick my feet, the faster I sink. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever. At all. I took three noodles to to I took a noodle. My wife handed me a noodle and I'm doing it. And then I went in. So she gave me one under each arm and I went under and then we put one between my legs and two under each eye and I'm floating. I'm like, oh, yeah, this is relaxing. Yeah, that that was, that was me trip. Because you know if the noodles are gone, you're going to sing I. Can't do it like, oh man, oh man. So in high school we had a gyp, we had a we had a pool at Brown Deer and you had to tread water for 7 minutes to pass 7 minutes. To pass a class.

45:31 To pass gym class to the swimming portion of gym class, you had to tread water for 7 minutes. How'd you do it? Or did you just not pass? I had my right foot on the ladder for about 6 minutes and 48 seconds. And then when the teacher was watching, I'd swing my arms a little bit just to be Oh yeah, that was, that was painful. That was, that was again, one of those pain points where you'll always remember it. And my kids swim like fish. They, they, they can do it all. And they're like that. Just just I'm like Bob Van Schindel that works at NWTC. He's got that bad. It's really easy. Just do that's that's how he starts a lot of because he's so smart.

46:11 He's so smart. He's like, oh, that's easy. You just so I, we had a talk. I'm sure he stopped doing it now. But when we work together and in student support, he'd be like, oh, that's easy. You just, and I'm like, Yep, Yep, you're making me feel this small. He's like, my bad, my bad, my bad, my bad. And that's it's tough not to start with because you want to make people that bring their guards down like, yeah, I can help you. Is is what they're trying to get across. But when you say it's easy and you can't do it, it's like. Yeah, it's almost always from a place of law. Yes, absolutely, but I can't I can't tread water that is so surfing is out for me. I. Don't know how people can I, I think it's impossible. It doesn't make sense to me. Why? Why are you that way? Like it?

46:52 Just how is your? Yeah, yeah. So that's, that's my, that's always my retort. Is that so like her argument then to keep this going is her argument is that it's you can't swim because you can't always keep going. And what if you had to stop? Well, then I take a deep breath and I lay on my back sideways and then I backstroke a little bit. That I can do. Yeah. Yep. Just keep my head above water and that'll work. But this, the whole vertical thing. No, it's just. It's just not right. No, it's not meant to be that way. It's not meant to be that way. That's the best rabbit hole ever. I love rabbit holes. At least we're in the same rabbit. Holes, Yes, yes, yes.

47:34 You know what I do want to call back to? I feel like we glossed over it, but it's one of those life moments that not only make it worth living, but our justification of like, why we're here and what we do. Like, I want to finish the thought of you teaching your mom to read. Oh yeah? Well, how did that come about? Like, did you approach her and be like, hey, I could do this? Or did she ask, like, how did that come about? Of course she didn't. Ask She did not want that at all. But I couldn't. I couldn't imagine, I couldn't imagine walking in a world where you didn't understand like being able to read signs and, and to read directions and to read those things. So my mom didn't drive, obviously because she didn't read or write, but she always wanted to drive. She didn't want to read, but she did want to drive. She always wanted to drive.

48:28 So that was kind of my bait. Like, well, if your mom, if you want to drive, then let's teach you to read so you can pass the driving test. And then I got out of college, I was making a tiny bit of money. Hooked on Phonics was 130 bucks. And I'm like, you know what, no better gift to get my mom for. I think it was for her birthday in April. Yep, it was for her birthday. And then by Christmas, that was what we had come up with in, in six, 7-8 months time. But I felt like that unlocking that key for her would again, if she wanted to pursue driving, she then could because she'd be able to read. She had, she was really, really smart as far as being able to memorize things.

49:15 So when we first started, she would cheat and use the sight words. But that's how it, hey, that's how it happens. It's sight where she would remember all the cards versus phonetically reading. So then going back to phonetically reading, it got a little tougher. And then we had some disagreements and discussions, you know, at her age, she was 59 at the time. Like why? I don't, I don't need to drive. I don't need. But then being a reminder that if you want to drive, this is this is step one. We got to do this. So again, having that bait, having that hook, but then I just wanted, I wanted for her. I did. I wanted her to be able to open those kind of doors to to driving if she wanted to, but ultimately just to be able to read if if if someone in my family wrote her a letter, being able to read that letter verses here, read this to me, taking away that personal. So again, maybe my brother doesn't send her as personal of a letter because she can't read it and he knows someone else has to read it.

50:15 But to open that up for her, I think it was a gift that she deserved. She wanted, she didn't want all of it, but she did want it. And then she didn't end up driving. But to show that she can do that part was, was, was clutch for me. It was it was and her work, her and I working together gave us something to do. We played a lot of cards. We watched a lot of movies together and TV together because I, when I graduated, I bought my mom's house and then we fixed it up in that way and I lived there with her. So there was my son and my mom and myself. So I'd go to work, she'd take care of my son for me and that was family taking care of family.

50:57 I come home, I cooked and you know, all of those things. And then when we had free time, we'd play cards or play board games or do whatever. We didn't have the Internet back then. Had we had the Internet, I think she probably would have even more wanted to learn how to read to get to some of this spicy information, or she would have just watched a lot of videos. My mom was fun. She was a self-proclaimed redneck. That was, she loved calling herself a she was, she was from Muncie, IN country, you know, she went to school through 5th grade. But it wasn't, it wasn't required, especially of women back then. It wasn't expected when we talk about expectations.

51:40 She was expected to have kids and be a Good Wife and a good mother and which she did. Meeting my father was probably unexpected for her father because my father was a truck driver and he was a good pinball player. So he'd stop at the restaurant where she worked and he would play pinball and that's how they met. He was playing pinball and she would watch him play pinball and every time he drove through, he'd stop at that restaurant. And that's how they built their relationship. But then upon that relationship, they had to move to Milwaukee and the rest is history. Then they had a kid in 596062646668 and then I was born in 74.

52:21 So they kind of think I was a mistake, but I won't. Hey, hey, some of the best lady plans were not intended, right? So yeah, it, it, it was meant to be, right. So life has been fun. But that, that for me, my son at the time was around 6:00. So he was in the process of learning to read. So then working together, it helped them to build an even stronger relationship because her being his primary caretaker while I was at the job was, I mean, they, they had such a really strong bond at that point. And then working together on those two, it it it made sense at the time. Yeah, so two things in there. One, that carrot I bet you still use all the time as an instructor, like tying somebody's motivation to doing something is really important.

53:06 And then two, I've never thought this about you, but I bet you're a good gift giver. Does that translate to the rest of your life? Love giving gifts I bet I haven't figured my wife out yet though. Like I just he might watch this but I just bought my son a birthday gift He he. It won't come up for a while, He. He stepped away from insurance sales. He's working at Petco now because originally he wanted to be a veterinarian. He loves animals. We talked about the idea of how don't you start a pet shop, like where you buy and sell animals or or foster or whatever that might be. But now he took a step away from insurance. He's working as a bather at Petco and he's in the grooming assistant program. So he's going to become a groomer, but ultimately he wants to do his own grooming business.

53:50 So while we were rummaging this morning, brand new pair of pet Clippers. So I think it's a great idea just to show that, hey, I believe in you and I believe that if you want to do this, you can do this. And let me get you started by giving you this like that. So hopefully he likes it. I hope one of the best gifts you've ever received. What would it be? One of the best gifts I ever received. That's tough, man. You know, it's a super easy one. And it's funny because it's almost become a joke that like every year for my birthday, my mom buys me a a dozen Titleist pro V1 golf balls. It's all, it's the only golf ball I play with, but it's, it's the, it's the epitome of a good gift. Like it's something, they're pretty expensive. It's not something you want to go out and spend money on. I'm a frugal person by nature, so I don't, I hate spending money.

54:48 So I don't know, something like that. I'm pretty pretty simple really. My wife tells me I'm very hard to get gifts for because I'm also a person. Even though I hate spending money. It takes me like I go through a process of diagnosing what I want, pick specifically what it is and then I feel there's value there so I buy it and that's how it goes. So I really harkening back to what you said earlier. Fortunately after ebbs and flows of life am doing OK. You know that you know, if I want something, I buy it. And I can see how that makes me a hard gifty E but but not but I don't know. More than anything, I think it's like like today, I see this as a gift from you to me in conversation. I was thinking the opposite.

55:45 I was like, man, I can't believe you thought of me. So I'm I'm happy to be here for sure. But it doesn't matter. It's anybody. It's anybody in that chair. Because when I, when I think of what, you know, where true happiness comes from within me. It's not things, right? It's not, it's not things like those are good. And yeah, of course, like there's a certain level of life where like comforts and security and what you expect is, is good and that like that's necessary. But like past that, a lot of it comes from time.

56:27 And to me, time is more valuable than a lot of other things. And that's, that's something that's a constant struggle in my life. And we've that's been beaten to death on the podcast about being super motivated but not knowing where to put time and then giving it to others. So I don't know, I guess a lot of the gifts that I think of in my life wouldn't be perceived by a lot of people as gifts. It's maybe like a, someone opening a door for me, a, a, a, not a literal door, a figurative door to something. So that's where I know if I thought about it for a long time, that's where my answer will go.

57:10 And you know, here's a really good example of that is when I initially graduated college. I don't know how much of that story you and I have even talked about. I got an academic scholarship to go to college, but I had to be an engineer and I wasn't ready for anything to do with college. I wasn't everything in life had come up very easily to me to that point. And then all of a sudden you have to be self motivated and you have to actually like set a mission and vision on something as opposed to just like show up and just do well cuz you can remember things good. Yes, absolutely. So that of course didn't go well. And then I transferred to Milwaukee area Technical College, got a degree in marketing there, nice and graduated right in the dead center of a recession. So I'm working a couple odd jobs trying to make it work, feeling like some of that pressure we were talking about earlier, feeling like I'm an adult but not living or or like earning like I'm an adult.

58:07 And at that time I had a couple internships in radio and I diagnosed at least I had a goal. That's what I wanted to do. That's how I wanted to work Nice. And nobody was hiring anything. It was a recession. I couldn't get any kind of job. And I sent talking about kind of, you know, being motivated or like taking control or charge. I send an e-mail to every radio station within an hour of Milwaukee, where I was living at the time, asking to do any kind of work. Pay me to do something like I'll clean. Yeah, help, let me do something. And there was a dude named Bob Bonifant.

58:48 He, which is, it's wild, his, his job is wild to think about now because he, he made his entire career on an AM radio station being the salesperson and the voice talent. He did it all. He did everything. So looking back on it, I get why he did it now. Like of course this guy wanted $7.00 an hour help to do something because he did everything else. Take one of these balls out of my hand. Seriously, I'm juggling. Yeah, but at at that point in my life, him even replying to that e-mail and saying, yeah, come in and talk, that's a gift to me. That's that's a gift that I needed. That altered my life direction. And then I spent 10 years doing a career that at that time I was applying to jobs in sales, to be brand strategist, anything I was remotely qualified for and a bunch of stuff that I wasn't.

59:41 That's a gift to me. Bob Bonifant gave me a gift. And after 10 years, sure, I ended up kind of choosing a different path and not wanting to do that kind of work anymore. But at that moment in my life, that's all I wanted to do. Yep. And him responding to that, whether it was needed from the reason of needing help or not or whatever, that was the gift. Yeah. That's all I'd answer, man. Yeah. The Goodwill has a big poster and it says a hand up, not a hand out. Yeah. So that that was it. That was your hand up, hand up, Like, hey, just put a hand out. Have you been able to do that for anyone else? Yeah, that's awesome. I think so. I try to. That's awesome. You know, really. Here's a really good example for you.

1:00:24 This happened pretty recently. A person I crossed paths was a student was doing working in trades, wanted to get into sales. So he took some classes to get into sales and he was working on a CNC machine. Well, I have a friend that is the president of a company that makes CNC machines and he has a sales background. So the more we talked about it, I ended up connecting the two together and I didn't really know the, I didn't know the the ceiling of the job. And I was just like, I know my friend, it's going to be a good gig. It's definitely going to be something that he should do. So I had all the confidence in the world that it would be a good direction, but I didn't do a ton of due diligence.

1:01:07 I was like, I know both of you, here's something I can connect. And I did the classic teacher thing. I was like, I'm not going to do any of this for you. Here's a phone number. Call this phone number. The one thing I will do is I'll text him and tell him to expect a call at some point and I left it there. So you know, the onus is still there, but. They got some skin in the gang, yeah. So I guess I opened a proverbial door, but for the most part it was that door was there anyway, he just needed the numbers of the digit. So he calls, meets with the guy a couple times, my friend ends up hiring him. It's awesome. And the best part about it is I find out afterwards, I do a yearly fishing trip with my friend and we got to talking about that job.

1:01:51 And I can't remember if he brought it up or anything, but he's like, do you know how like how good of an opportunity that was for for that because the student was a Unicorn for him too. So I don't want to seem like it's one way because like everybody's looking for a 25 year old who can talk to people and do the thing we were talking about earlier. Web face to face sell. That's what they need, especially in trades. Like you got to be there. You got to be with the person. So ultimately he says, do you know how good of a job that was? It's like, no, not really. Like I know you're doing all right. It, it seems good. And he's like, he's going to take over the territory for a person in three years, if all goes according to plan and he does the process and he learns how to do it, he's going to take over a territory that that guy last year made $300,000.

1:02:39 I was like, are you kidding? No, I didn't. Maybe we should have talked about me having the job. No, but man. Is there a finder's fee? Yeah, I was like, that is unbelievable. That's awesome. Yeah. Like, here's a key, here's a lock. I mean, here, if it works, it works. Yeah, right. Maybe that's not the right key. Yeah, maybe this is the wrong lock, but the introduction, the introduction is, is is cool. Just being able to do that. I know you had that time in career services, so I know, Yeah, juggling that like, hey, here's a person, here's a job, here's what are your thoughts and who are and and having those connections. It's got to be. I mean, that's awesome. Yeah, it's invaluable.

1:03:19 And I guess that's, I'm glad you asked that because that's, I try to keep that topic. That's why I do what I do. And that's just it. Like I said, I was much later in life when I came to the awareness of that's how I got satisfaction was from stuff like that. But now it's all I try to do. I try to help support people get to whatever they want next. Yes, you know, Yes, yes. I I had a friend that works, Mr. Thomas, JT Jason Thomas works at Franklin Middle School. He was just honored MLK like person of the year, something like that for his he gives back. He's got the empowering young men program at Franklin Middle School in the summertime where he's teaching young men, you know, proper handshake, eye contact.

1:04:07 He gets them out to NWTC so that they can see some possible career options in the future. So and that goes back to, you know, us going to Brown deer and being in Milwaukee and looking for that kind of guidance. So he's now being able to give that kind of guidance for to young people. So every once in awhile he'll let me come talk to the kids and, and, and that that refills my cup like it is like I'm I'm back to overflowing like it. So he's like, you ever thought about, you know, teaching in in the middle school or grade school and it and that. Turns out I have. A long time ago, I was going to be a fourth grade teacher. A long time ago now, like now, I'll leave that up to the young people that maybe that maybe those in their 20s and 30s with a lot more patient. No, I I've got the patience.

1:04:55 I just, I think it would, it would quickly become a job and I don't I don't want it to be a job to to talk to young kids like we were talking about before this started just being at the YMCA. This was last September and this kid, I won't tell his name. He's, he's, he's, he can't do a layup. So he's got his right hand layup down and like if you can work on your left hand layup. So I'm like just start with step with your right foot and then just lay it up with your left. So we, we go from there and then we go back 2 steps and then we go 1 dribble and we're, we're working on it for about 15 minutes. So some kids come in and they're making fun of him. You can't even do a left hand layup right?

1:05:36 So I'm like well you show them how right So then this kids like throwing it over the back. He's he can't do a left hand layup either. So all of a sudden within 20 minutes time I've got 7 kids at the YMCA on the left side doing 1 dribble trying to do left hand layups and then all of a sudden I'm like all right well let's go to the right side and let's do a reverse to the left like this. These are things that you can work on when you're in here by yourself, but if you just come in here and play basketball and dribble with your head down and Chuck up shots, you're never going to get better. These are the things you need to do to get better. And then the next time I came, he was like, coach, you got something else for me to work on. And he goes to a different school he's at, he's our rival that. But it just, it felt good being able to his dad didn't have the time or wasn't there at the YMCA with him. So to be able to say, hey, yeah, work on this, you know what, 1 dribble pull up or you know what, just practice dribbling with your head up, those kind of things. To have basketball as an intermediary to something I enjoy.

1:06:37 And I can also try and give back. But again, they have to participate. So when we talked about parts participation troll, they can you don't know what you're talking about and and ignore me. Or they can take 15 minutes and work on it when they're at the YMCA just trying to have fun. But I've got them one dribble, 2 dribble working on thing that's probably boring to them, but hopefully make them better giving back in those ways. I think for right now is, is going to have to be enough because I have, I have two high schoolers, whereas teaching full time out of middle school or running a program for middle school youth. I, I get to talk to a couple of students at the NEW school that is out there by NWTC and that's fun. But but yeah, I just dipping in and coming back out. Dipping in and coming back out full time would be tough right now.

1:07:27 It would be, it would be tough. These kids are different. There's, there's, there's a different whether COVID did it or whether social media does it or is the instant gratification it takes a lot more. K12 be a tough gig, Tough anywhere from from K to 12 it would be a tough. Gig yes, yes, yes, and I get it. I get my boys got to be a school at 7:28, they get out at 2:48. That is a that's a full time job. Yep. For somebody 1514 years old and they get a 20 minute lunch, even at a full time job, you get 1/2 hour lunch, right?

1:08:09 So it's, and then you're not supposed to talk unless you know the instructors or the teachers want you to. You are, it's a it's a tough, it's a tough set up. It's a tough set up. So shout out to those teachers that yeah, three more weeks, you guys. Can make it. Yeah. And I think I think there's the, you know, the people that I there's people that find energy in it, like we're talking about finding energy in other things. And I'm so glad they exist. And I hope they just continue to get rewarded as they should and valued as they should because if we don't invest in our youth, why do we even exist? Yeah, exactly what you know, and you're right. There are a lot of structural or procedural things within K12 education that I think could probably adjust to be to fit a 12 year old kid better.

1:09:09 But the ones who do find satisfaction and that's why because they they do that stuff whether they're told to or not, you know, like, or whether, you know, I'm kind of one of those ask forgiveness later people too. And OK, we'll figure it out. Later on, but. Yeah, absolutely. That'd be a tough gig, man. That was another thing my brother said. But so I'll say, I'll say my third brother versus my 5th brother. My third brother says, yeah, like he always says, it's better to ask forgiveness than it is to ask for permission. My 5th brother said, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Don't get me in trouble. I never said that. I never. I said it's easier. I said it's easier to ask for forgiveness. That is permission because he was talking to his girl at the time.

1:09:54 He's like, well, he said like, no, no, no, no, don't get me in trouble. I never said. I said it's easier. I never said it's better. So let's let's correct that. It's it's it's easier. Oh, that's fun. That's. Fun. So what about that same question back to you? I don't want to lose the gift. What's the best gift you ever got? The time is always like, like you said, like we've we've had like my 45th birthday, my family, my wife set it up, surprised me. Family come Milwaukee came up like that was, you know, crazy super surprise that gift, that unexpected. But as far as like a thoughtful gift, the my brother that went to college for my 40th birthday, he bought me a a leather bound book that was blank because I've always talked about writing a book.

1:10:40 So he bought me that and I'm on page 2. I mean, it's been 10 years. I'm on page 2. But to, to say, you know what? I believe you're going to write it that that for me was powerful. Like that reminds me, I'm going to pull that thing out tonight and I'm going to start. I want to, I could use the summers to write a little something in it just to write down my thoughts. Having such a big family. We've talked about the idea of writing a book, kind of like the Bible is written one point in time from all 10 different perspectives. Cool. Idea I've lost a brother and I've lost a sister my sister passed away in old three, my oldest sister and then my brother passed away in 2017. So now there's there's eight of us left that would have perspectives that we can write about one single point in time and they will all be factual.

1:11:35 It will just be our perspective of it right. So that that Christmas Day when my mom was reading, what was there? How did they feel about it or have any That won't be the time, But we we've talked about, hey, you write a chapter, you write a chapter and and we put together get the book that way. And we just brought that up again a couple weeks ago. We're just trying to figure out what point in time. You think it'll get legs? Will they all do it, you think? So I have another brother who is a writer. He's, he is, he writes. He's he ended up going back to school at Lakeland, getting a bachelor's degree, getting his master's degree from Lakeland. Very, very intelligent, he writes.

1:12:17 He'll do his part for sure. We're one out of eight, Michael. We are two out of eight with you. So that that if I can get my part done, then we are recorded all the way there, right. So that is, I mean you got chat GPTAI. You mean we can we can get something written up. How do I feel about when this happened to me? No. So yeah, working on that, that that'll but that that gift, I I still have it again. I'm, I'm still on page 2. My book that I was going to write was the yin Yang of personal finance, The yin Yang of personal finance when your personal finances are no longer personal. So like you've got your own personal finances and then you get married or you get into a long term relationship.

1:13:02 How do you go about making those work? Because they say, and when I say they, they statistically they show 50% of the marriages end in divorce. Of those divorces, the majority of the divorces come about due to money reasons. So I don't think it's money because I've seen plenty of poor people that are crazy happy and in love and laughing and everything. I think we stop communicating about money. That becomes a sticking point. So trying to talk through having that conversation about money. So I wanted to make it kind of a, a workbook kind of a short, short story about again, my family members because we all, most of us are married, been married for a very long time. How did your finances work versus how do my finances work and how do we communicate with that significant other? Because there's more than one way to do it. It's not just what we have to have a joint account or we have to have separate finances.

1:13:56 So to have those, those kind of conversations with one another, it's tough. People don't want to talk about money that that is that is like a taboo subject when money comes up. I tell the story about a young lady that was filing a bankruptcy when I was at the Fisk and she was 27. She was 27 years old. She had a 5 year old and a three-year old daughter. She had gone through a divorce and she was financially struggling. She had lots of credit card debt. She said the hardest person for her to tell was going to be her mom because her mom was a single mom, because her dad passed away when she was really, really young. She said my mom was a single mom and I had everything I didn't my sister and I didn't want for anything. Like we had a limo at prom and we had the prom dress and I had a car when I was 16 and I had I had everything I didn't want for anything.

1:14:47 But I won't be able to do that for my daughters. And that was a big let down. So she told her mom, Mom, I'm going to have to file a bankruptcy because I'm so far behind on credit card debt. And her mom said, well, they're not that bad. She's like, how would you know? She's like, I had to file a bankruptcy. And she was like, mom, you had to. She's like, yeah, you guys are expensive kids, but that just shows that we don't communicate financially from generation to generation. It's like you'd rather talk to kids about say no to drugs and alcohol and, and, and sex and all of those taboo topics, but you don't talk to them about money because you're not confident in money in yourself. So trying to give a manual to that so that parents can talk to one another about finances and then actually push that on to the next generation. So they're willing and ready to talk about finances to help hopefully break the systemic generational poverty that goes through generation after generation generation. And it's not just about avocado toast and it's not just about the Starbucks.

1:15:51 It's about, you know, much bigger things than that. And how do you have those conversations when you're not confident, when there's the fear of the unknown, when you don't have the knowledge, skills or information that you that you want going into that conversation. So putting it in a book on how do you go about having those conversations? Like is it just a Sunday night? You know what, you make dinner, We're going to have a conversation on Sunday night. What happened this week financially? What are we looking forward to this next week? But then don't talk about them any other day because on Monday, if you're looking at your spouse's trunk and she bought something or she, you know, went out to lunch or he went out for a beer with the guy, whatever it might be. If you're back and forth on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, it can't be tit for tat.

1:16:39 So we, we set a date or set a Sunday night dinner. We're going to talk about finances and whether you bring the kids in, depending on their age, you bring the kids in, have those kind of conversations. That's what the book is supposed to be about. So I'm on page 2. I'll get to the other hundred and something pages over the next couple of summers. But, and maybe I change it up. It is what it is. I, I do feel like education, it's tough to pass it on, especially in a book, because people want things in YouTube shorts or Facebook reels or Instagram 30 seconds. So putting them in 32nd little spurts and then maybe doing the transcripts into a manual.

1:17:21 OK, maybe that's how we do it. Yeah. Maybe. Yeah, I can't wait to teach Riv about money. Yeah, oh, he's going to have an allowance so young and we're going to put a percentage in the in the in the savings and this is going to be to buy stuff. Absolutely. But it is tough conversation. Sam, has that changed at all? Like do your high school age kids, do they get any other outside of the home? I'm saying do they get any in like required or at least access to any type of financial literacy financial? Force that I think my son will be allowed to take next year as a senior. I have written a personal finance class that Shano high School was using and a couple other high school De Pere I think was using it and another through the college. But it you don't get college credit for it, but it is a one credit course that they can take. There are financial literacy, but it's usually an elective or it makes it difficult for them to if they're not working and they don't have a paycheck that just got cut by 30% because of taxes.

1:18:34 They don't it's not relevant to them. So then it just goes over their head. So my older son actually took a class his junior year high school, but that was 15 years ago and it was check writing. So it was, I mean it was so it was so outdated like. Here's where you signed it. Here's where you. Signed right, where did where did they learn about cryptocurrency and Bitcoin and and and how they can monetize social media and where can they learn about financing and budget that that kind of course it's probably there, but it's an elective. It's not a required course. Got it unfortunately. And then, you know, it comes back to the home. Yeah, absolutely.

1:19:17 And I know that's a place, that's a place your ruber passion, but how long did you do that? How long were you financial coach? Eight years, eight years, yeah. So between student support services and then we have that emergency fund where we talked to people about their financial situations before just throwing money at any problem. Kind of talk through resources and what kind of things are you eligible for in the community? Because there's a lot going on here in Brown County that people need to know about South trying to get that information out as well. So if again, it wasn't like work, it was like I, I, I went somewhere to do what I wanted to do. Like it was that that it was that much fun. So, and then I had a great, you know, my Co workers. That's the hardest part about moving into teaching is, is not having the day-to-day contact with, with Co workers that I'm a people person.

1:20:03 So so going into class, talking to the students and then. You know, looking around for your teammates and everybody's on a different schedule is tough, but other than that, it's great. Yeah, it's great. It's great. And that that amount of time gave you a bunch of material for the for your book. Oh yeah, for sure, for sure that I leaving the names out. But man, I've got stories. I've got stories, I've got stories. Yeah, yeah. I think you know. You ever thought about writing a book? Yeah, yeah. You know, recently, recently I thought about writing a children's book. I think that'd be fun. And through the lens, like I thought about like a a geographic children's book, like through the podcast, writing a children's book about Wisconsin, I thought would be pretty cool.

1:20:48 But yeah, I love writing. I love it. I have 19,000 irons in the fire at all times, so I doubt, at least at the current moment, I don't see it coming to fruition. But absolutely, I've thought about it. Yeah, I love writing. Put some words down on the paper and just keep it going. And that's when we talk about consistency. That was what that's where the 2 pages came from because I was going to write 2 pages per week and then give myself two weeks off like every job does. But then I would have 100 pages at the end of the year. So that's where the 1st 2 pages came in and you fall off and the second week you don't do it. And then by the third week it's like, I should get back to it. Next week I'm going to get back to it. And this this summer, Back to it, Back to it. You know what I did do for a while that was really rewarding and helpful that I stopped?

1:21:40 It's one of those things I fell off, but I want to. I'm going to start again. I was doing this like manifestation journal every morning I would write the same like 4 to 6 sentences depending on you know, what was going on in life. I would write the same things and I would know what I was going to write already. So it was just like the act of writing, but it was more like meditation than anything, focusing where your attention is going to lie. And it was both personal and and career related or goal related, I guess you'd say all all-encompassing. So like whether it was about being a good dad or a good husband or having the podcast succeed or do well in creating a class or whatever it was, it was super helpful. And then, you know, it's funny and it puts it into perspective of life in general for a lot of people, that all it took was a little bit of change in our day-to-day routine where I had a lot of space for it.

1:22:43 Because I do the mornings with Riv and he was sleeping till 7:00 every day. So like, I'm an early riser. So I would get up and then I'd do this and it would give me time to think and then watch the monitor until he woke up. And then we'd kick it. We'd read books. He's into sharks, whatever. Like we'd read his books in the morning and then now for the past little while, he's been waking up super early, like 5:30 to 6:15, usually my wake up time, right? So it's like, all right, looks like we're up together, buddy, we're here. Yep. And then I haven't fitted in another part of the day, right. And now yet another of 1000 things that keeps life in perspective for me because a lot of people that do what we do, it's too easy to say, oh, we'll just do it. Yeah.

1:23:31 Or why don't you just it's not back to the it's not that hard. It's not that hard. Just do it. Yeah, of course it isn't hard. I was writing 6 lines a day, but it fit in my life really well. And now I've got to re prioritize everything to find time to do this because I'm a very routine person, right, Right. And that puts it into perspective for you as an educator, as a father, as a human with some empathy about the people around you. Absolutely. What's that person doing that's not that easy? And how can I make it easy? Because it's way too easy for other teachers and and stuff to just say they just don't want to do it. That's not the case.

1:24:15 It wouldn't be here if. That was the case. I told the student yesterday. I said thanks for showing up. And he was like, well, I mean, we pay for the class. I'm like, yes, but you still don't have to show up like you choose each time. And he was like, well, you're welcome. Like he didn't know what to say to it. I'm like, I'd because I'd be talking to some empty chairs if you didn't show up. So I appreciate you showing up. And I forget the young lady's name that came in talking to us about hips and and high impact practices and those things and saying all the students these days aren't motivated. Well, they're there. If they made it to the classroom now it's on you. Like they if they if, if it took their motivation to get there. Now, what are you doing to encourage your motivation so.

1:24:58 Yeah, here's like. Your your one takeover, your one positive and what like that, right? I, I stole a little bit of it. I just like I said, like yesterday, I said I watched a movie this weekend. It was a low budget film and and the kid was a guy was wrongly accused of unaliving his own kids. So he was on death row. OK, which made me think, hey, students, if you have one last meal, what would it be? I just asked some silly questions like if you have one last meal, what would it be like, you know, stir, serve and serve for pizza. I might. I mean, it can't just be any kind of pizza.

1:25:39 Like, what kind of what would it be like having that thought? And it's just silly enough to get them talking, right? It does. There's no wrong answer. It's just let's just get you talking to start the day. Yeah, absolutely. So here's one for you and then maybe we'll end on that. We'll end on the final meals. That sounds fun, but recently, here's one. Here's the things that get to me. All online class student does the textbook. It was a McGraw Hill thing, so they had smart books and quizzes throughout the whole class. Does every single one, if I remember right, does them all, doesn't do any of the project or discussion. Well, you get to week 6 of an 8 week class. Why are you still going to do the textbook work but not the other work?

1:26:36 Knowing that it's you're going to fail like you're going to fail, you haven't done anything else. And like that's the type of stuff that gets my wheels turning like that one, ones that I can't even conceive. Like, OK, plenty of people mail it in. If you're going to mail it in, mail it in. Mail it in, right? But why? Why did that person finish that? And what could I have done differently? Because if they finish that, how what was that person's carrot to say, OK, what? You're learning that in the text? Why not just put it into practice a little bit? You have to do type some stuff and pass you paid to be here back to the beginning. So in my eyes, what I see a lot of people do is just chalk that up and be like, that's going to happen. And I'm sure that, you know, it's normal to feel that way to just because we can't control it on the other side of it. I'm like, what, what could I?

1:27:35 What's the little lever that I could have pulled to start that off? That's the question to ask and that's being newer instructors that that question stood like because I know I'm not perfect, not even close. Like, I mean, I got so much to learn, but going into the summer, like what could I have done differently? What I had business ethics and I think I had six out of like 15 students participating. I don't, I don't know where those other nine were. I don't know, do I reach out by phone? Like what what what do I do next semester? Or do they just sign up for a class? I have no idea.

1:28:17 But again, looking inward like what? What communication did I miss or what outbound communication? What video did I not send or what did my video say that said the wrong thing? Continuing to look inward because where else can you look right? That's. What we? Can control that's what we can control that circle of control is is what we do. So that's what I'm heading into for the summer is the two classes that I'm mainly going to focus on. I have my IDP this weekend and just and focusing on what I can do as an instructor to get better to to to to to to ignite that pilot of motivation in the students and then keep that motivation because stumble into the finish line this last week was a it was a long one.

1:29:07 It was like I said, the presentations were a little different. It was just I'm ready for the summer, I'm ready for the summer, I'm ready to recharge, I'm ready to get re inspired. I'm ready to to go back to learning versus teaching. So filling up my cup and maybe that's getting involved with the empowering young men or getting back to working with the the my, my, my basketball players and working with with them. Maybe that'll help recharging. But I'm ready to be recharged at this point. Absolutely. What do you do to recharge? Go as far into the wilderness as I can. That's that's my thing. I love it. I love it. Get in touch with nature. That's that's what I do to recharge.

1:29:48 That's when I feel the most alive man. When I'm when I'm far away from day-to-day man made things because a lot of it like, don't get me wrong, there's a creature, comforts are great in life and it's good and I'm happy. Everything exists. At the same time, I think a lot of things are a facade of sorts that mask a lot of different feelings, good and bad. And when I feel alive is when I am on a trout stream with a house that that or without a house within 5 miles or like whatever, walking down a hiking trail with heading towards a beautiful view or something like that.

1:30:41 So that's what I do to recharge. That's awesome. Yeah. That's where I get energy and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah. That's awesome. Yeah, What about you? Well, you just kind of went through. It I'm pretty the opposite. I, I, I mean, I've a little basketball, I mean. I do miss whooping. I love, I love the bouncing ball. So this summer I I know my family likes to travel and this might be our last one because my son will be 18 in September so he may not want to go with us next year. So we'll probably try and take a road trip somewhere. Bob likes to go to the Dakotas and like, you get away from all this, man. It's like just.

1:31:22 But I, I don't know, maybe go visit some family. I can make the trip through Virginia, Maryland, then Georgia and Texas. Arizona's a forest. They're all over. Yeah, I got people in Arizona. And then make our way back. But that'll be a nice 2-3 week drive and we have we have pets and it's so. That does not sound recharging to me. It sounds valuable and good and something you should do, but that is not a reason. I love, I love driving, I do. I like just being on the open Rd. I love having my family in the box with me. Like there is no room to go running high from this it is you're here with me. You got to listen to me, my high pitched singing, my vibrato. They are.

1:32:10 They are punished by it all. So. You know, I'm interested to see how that plays out because I think in a lot of ways like that, we're similar. And I'm sure there's going to come a point in Riv's life where he's not going to want to hear me talk. And he's like, right now, he's done. There's going to come a point. And I'm sure both of our students feel like that way at times, too. We're boy, can I walk out the door? But that's OK. So final meal, man, final meal. Oh man, for me, I'm simple pizza, should I say rupees or or nice hamburger? Just a cheeseburger, Some fries.

1:32:59 I love lasagna though. I make a decent lasagna whenever I cook. I aim for edible. I make a decent lasagna and that will probably take longer, so maybe I'd make a lasagna to extend my life a little bit. Little lasagna. Garlic bread. Oh man. I love lasagna too. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, probably that that the the craziest answer. I got this this, he said. Mahi, Mahi and chicken fingers. Those would be his two. He wanted. They pair perfect fish. Yeah, I'm like together. He's like, I that those are that's what I would order.

1:33:41 I'm like, I had some Mac and cheese orders. Like they they they kept this pretty simple. It was, you know, what do you do? What do you do? That's interesting. You know what it's interesting is that we I would cook it too. I would cook my last meal, which I don't think a lot of people would. If I think about that answer, it's it's wild that you went in that direction. I would cook my last meal. I would make it's a meal I called called confetti chicken. Confetti. Chicken and I I joke that it's why my why, why my wife married me That's because I made it She's a foodie and it's the first meal I cooked it was like our second or third date. I cooked that and it's one of my favorite things to eat, but it would be more the you know what it could be now they're boy now.

1:34:30 OK, so that's what happens when you insert a child into the equation because I would do it purely because it's one of my favorite foods, but also the memory of it. Like I could relish it and go back into the moment. Now it potentially would be ribs now because it that was the like we have this classic like everybody has that one or so many people have that one baby picture where they're like chopped up with all kinds of food for River. It's a it's this BBQ sauce rib that he had. It's one of the first, it might be the first meat he ate. That's awesome. It's like 6 months old and he still loves ribs, right. So I might do ribs now, but I think it'd still be confetti chicken.

1:35:10 It's like a pasta, like kind of like a Cajun cream sauce with bell Peppers and onions. And I'm hungry thinking I'm yes. Can I have one more question for you? Yeah, we're making a movie about my life. Who plays your role? Who do you want to play your role in the movie? A movie about your life. Anybody's life, but just it's a movie about our lives. OK, who do you want to play your role? Who would play me in a movie? Tell me yours first. I need a second to think about this. If budget permits, I would allow Will Smith to play me I. Would allow it. If my budget's a little short, I'm I'm going with Shamar Moore from yeah, from Criminal Minds.

1:35:58 Criminal Minds. Yeah, I'm going that route. And then if, if those two are busy on a project, I would go. Michael Ealy only because his real name apparently is Michael Brown. He changed his last name to Ely and he would know him from Think Like a Man movie. I I if if you've seen that Kevin Hart movie, you would think like a man. But what else did he play in? A lesser known actor than Shamar Moore and Will Smith, Again depending on the budget. OK, I'd probably go not so much anymore, but for a while. And it was right around like the American Sniper time. People just told me that Bradley I. Was gonna say Bradley Cooper.

1:36:44 Were you really? I was. That's why I asked. Yeah. Is it really? That was why I asked. Bradley Cooper would be like the visual doppelganger, I think, and we got probably got a similar vibe. I would think maybe not an American Sniper, but I I think in real life, maybe a similar vibe, but I think I'm I'm thinking too deep about it. I'm thinking someone who could really. The. Complexity get the yeah, like the introspectivity of it. So I think I'd OK, so Bradley Cooper's logical answer. I think I'd say Daniel Day Lewis, though Daniel Day Lewis. And that's purely from a vain perspective because he probably has far more layers than I do. But Daniel Day Lewis, just because I think he would, he'd really lean into the role and and find all angles of me where I think is Bradley could portray it. And we have the same name out of the same thing. I think he'd do a good enough job. But Daniel Day Lewis, I think.

1:37:41 Who would play your wife? Last question. Oh, oh, why can't I think of her name right now? Eva Mendez? Eva Mendez would probably play my wife, I think. Awesome, awesome, awesome. Who would play your wife? We've changed so many times. So she she kind of reminds me of Wonder Woman. We dressed up as Superman in Wonder Woman one year. So I, I always, I used to think like a Lynda Carter type person. Xena, Princess Warrior was her for a little while back in college. Nowadays we would probably go.

1:38:24 I have to get back to you now. The jury's out. She's changed so much. She's. That's a hard. Yeah, that's way harder than me. I I I threw that out there just because I thought of that one time. She'd like, and it's probably my wife likes the Fast and the Furious movies. Yeah, I don't. We did Salma Hayek for my wife at one point, which was funny because we were on vacation and there was there were guys on stage and there was a contest on Mr. Ryu contest. And they said, you know, like who it was, your dream girl or whatever. And and the one guy said Salma Hayek. And then they sent him, they sent all of the people in the audience to find the person they thought closest represented their movie star act. And I knew he I was like, he's going to pick you. And then he came over and tried to get my wife to go up with her.

1:39:12 And she's like, no way, no way. So that that was because we used to say Salma Hayek all the time. Yeah, that's funny. That's funny. I don't know what the I don't know what the look alike would be, but I think Eva Mendez would capture the vibe and she's she's probably the Hispanic version of my extremely white wife, so. Yeah, Selma can get the she can get the sauce out of my wife. My wife is very whole bunch of fun. But she's she's type A she, she gets the job done. So I think, I think Selma can pull that off. OK, She could pull it off. Yeah, my wife is choosing my words carefully here, right.

1:39:52 So I'm used to talking about me, which I let it all up. I I don't know that I've ever talked about her on the pocket. She's when it when the time calls for spice, she'll she'll spice it up. But when it doesn't, the the other 98% of the time super chill. So I think, I think Eva could channel that, but it is she could probably channel that. That's awesome. That's awesome. That'll be fun. Let's make the movie. Let's do it. Let's do. We'll make movies, write books. It's all. Done. Consider it done.