Matty Day - Music and Writing, Creativity, and Career Reflection - Ep. #8

0:15 Yeah, they did this. I don't know. They're they're like, they're pretty good at rolling it out like they've been all over Jimmy Fallon. Mick Jagger was on Saturday Night Live last Saturday and like, yeah. So have you seen them live? Twice. And then a third time I went to go see them in Las Vegas and our plane landed. I turned on my phone and like, a friend had texted me like, dude, I'm so sorry. I'm like, what? It was like the concert was cancelled. Like, we found out as the plane landed, like, like during our flight they had canceled the concert. So it's just like, you know, granted, there are worse places to be with, nothing to do. With your plans to fall. Yeah, yeah. But it was like, maybe I was like reaching for, you know, glory one too many times or something like that. Like seeing them once was like, all right, that's that's it. And then like a second time was it was because they were playing in DC.

1:07 My sister lived there and it was just like an excuse to go visit her. And then the third time was like maybe a little greedy. Yeah, was it? Was it as impressive live as Build? Like that's supposed to be an amazing show that just even Mix singularly puts on. Yeah, well, like when I was a kid, I I, it was like, my brain thought that I had seen The Rolling Stones, 'cause when I was maybe 10 or 12, my parents had taken me to an IMAX concert of them. And I think just like the immersive IMAX experience had just kind of, like tricked my brain into like, thinking that I had seen them and it was like, I don't know. But then to actually see them, it was like, yeah, it was glorious, man. It was, it was so good.

1:50 Like that that 2005 album was pretty darn good. And like so like, all the songs they played were rad. And it was just, it was just surreal. Like the stage came out to the middle of the stadium at one point and I'm like 30 feet from them. And it was just cool. I was there with my mom, dad and sisters. Like it was a full family thing and it was rad. Is the is the whole family Stones fan? Mostly my dad, but yeah, my mom takes them too. And my sister and I like, send each other like old footage, like every day. The Internet is just so great, man. Like you you get on some Instagram account, like fan account. It's just like every single day there's some weird little interview clip that would have been lost to history. But you know, yeah.

2:33 It is weird thinking about that Beatles versus Stones thing. It does seem like you like and there's no reason why you have. To it was it was marketing man back then it was like they they kind of played it off each other. You know, it's like Coke versus Pepsi. Like big cola wins, You know, like at the time it was Stones or Beatles. Like, they both win. So yeah, yeah, but they were always friends. Paul McCartney, in fact, plays on a song on the new album. Oh really? Yeah. Cool. Which is like, I don't know significant historically. You know, I, yeah, I heard he kind of rocks on it. So, OK, we'll see. So. Does that like, how long have you been playing music? Since I was, my parents got me a guitar at like a a silent auction when I was 8, an acoustic guitar. And then I took lessons on that for a year. If I got through that, it was like then they would buy me an electric guitar.

3:29 I've got to show that I was committed and so started out playing like Michael rode the boat ashore. It's, you know, just simple stuff. And then I got to a guy who was like, I could bring in ACD and he would slow it down and figure out how to play and then teach me how to play it. So, you know, classic rock stuff, since I was, yeah, playing electric guitar since I was probably 10 and kind of accidentally got into playing bass and then got a bunch of gigs from from that later on. So. Why does that thing happen to people I know more than one person that accidentally got into playing bass. My Is it out of need? No, it Well, my the opportunities have been out of need. But like like they're just fewer bass players. But I was in 5th grade and I was going to Lombardi Middle School from for middle school and they had somebody come in and talk to us about it, just a counselor from the school and was talking to us about the different classes and trying to help us transition.

4:24 And I I asked if I could play guitar in in the band class and I I just didn't know. And she said, no, but you can play it in orchestra. I was like, oh, OK, cool. So I like, I went the entire summer just thinking I'm, I'm going to play guitar and orchestra. I it seems silly in retrospect, but I got there on the first day and it was like teacher going around the room, what do you play? Violin, Viola, cello, guitar, guitar. Like if we don't have guitar parts. So I picked up she let me play electric bass in the orchestra. So, like, move to that. And there were no bass players. So it was just kind of like a, it was totally accidental. And then I had learned bass.

5:09 And. Yeah. And through the years, even though I've been playing guitar longer than a lot of people, I just was the only guy with a bass. So yeah, still riding that accident out. Yeah. It happens like that sometimes. That leads to, like, the most fun things of life. Yeah, something you never knew, like you had no intention around it. But it's like, all right, whatever, I'll ride it. And then 30 years later, you're riding it still. Big time, man. Yeah. I mean the, like my kind of most noteworthy musical experiences all would have come from playing bass. Like just like the biggest shows, coolest gigs, like all that I was, I was on bass. So it's like not for that happenstance, like who knows how. Many different bands have you been in?

5:51 I I made a list a few years ago and I like in terms of like whether it's just like one off or like hired gun stuff or you know, bands I've played in for, you know, over a decade. I've, I've played on stage with I think 25 different bands. Yeah. And it'll be 26 in December. I I get to play bass for Wayne Newton at North Star Casino. How trippy is that, man? How? How? Does that opportunity present itself? That was my friend Alex Drossert, who's a piano player, and he actually got to do the gig a couple years ago. And a guy like that.

6:36 A lot of big time musicians just go to cities and they just have a band kind of waiting for them. Like Chuck Berry was always like that. They would play with new people every single night. And yeah, Wayne rolls that way as well. And Wayne Newton, he needs, he needs a a piano player. So my friend Alex to do that, I'll be on bass and then my friend Sam Farrell will be on guitar for it, so and. You probably just have a couple practice sessions like. In the weeks leading up, no, no, I guess last time they just showed up and got the music and just we're on stage with him hours later. That boggles my mind, man. I don't know. It's it's a vocabulary and you just get to learn it over the years and like for just song structures and stuff like that, it becomes more intuitive. Yeah.

7:22 Do you play? I do, but there's levels to this game and like my level is not that level. I've been playing guitar since I was probably like 14 or something, but I'm completely self-taught and I don't read music, so like I can't that that doesn't register with me. Like how you know that's not how I could like learn a song or anything like that. Like I know some regular like chord progressions of where the song might go, but like the thought of like hopping on with Wayne Newton and like I couldn't say 1 Wayne Newton song. I don't know if you can, but. You don't know dunk a Shane. OK. OK, that's that's literally the only one I know, but.

8:03 I do know that. But yeah, I can't. I can't fathom that that's a different level or layer than I than I have. That's a little bit different and like for the caliber of musician or you know, fame that that guy has, it's I've never done anything quite like that for what it's worth. So usually like you get a couple of rehearsals in or or you get together, you know what the music is going to be and maybe you're waiting on someone to fly in and then you and the backing band get together and kind of go through it. But then and then just, you know, might be the first time that you actually play it with the singer on stage. So yeah, yeah. You would You don't want to end up getting The Dirty look from Wayne Newton. No, no, no.

8:46 Oh gosh. I didn't even think about that. Pressure's on. Man. So that's obviously like just that whatever the like, what that leads to in general, right Leads. You probably have so many stories of just like playing live shows, different places, like what's the? Is there a weird one that comes in your mind that's like this? Something strange happened because you're playing live music and it wouldn't have without that type of thing. There was. There have just been shows where I've kind of found myself on stage with people that I just it blew my mind that I was on stage with with this person or whatever. I There was 1 gig where I was playing bass for Corey Chisel and our drummer couldn't get out of work on time. And it was we were playing Spring Green. There's a really cool venue there. I'll, I'll call it for the audience, the crappy barn, but our drummer couldn't make it.

9:55 But the opening act was Jimmy Chamberlain from The Smashing Pumpkins is jazz group. So then yeah, Jimmy being a drummer, played drums with us and that talk about that, that's a guy that had never heard our songs before and just jumped in and just jammed with us. And that was that was pretty surreal. Gosh. You know the the weird things that happen are just sort of like the the weirdos you meet between the shows and stuff like that are the funny little after bars and stuff like that or whatever. It's it's not not so much on stage. You can pretty much roll with any of that, yeah. Yeah, that's pretty cool like that too. Boggles my mind.

10:39 It's the same thing. So like, how did how does he know what to play as the drummer? Just hopping on stage with you, meeting you 30 minutes prior to. That he's just a crazy drummer. I mean, the guy plays, he plays in one of the biggest rock bands in the world, but then he's a jazz aficionado on the side, so he's just like loves drumming and just knows it inside now just has the intuition. And yeah, yeah, that was pretty cool though. Man, so what's what's dad of five like? Congrats by the way. Thank you. I know we we texted the in person. Congrats holds more weight. I. Think No, totally thanks, man. It's so the night.

11:24 It wasn't until the night that my like I I dropped off my younger kids at my parents house because we were doing we we've had this most recent one was our fourth home birth. So drop the kids off at my folks place and the dog and then got back to the house and just riding it out, waiting it out, checking contractions and waiting for the midwife. Eventually. And it wasn't until I was on my way back from my folks place that it dawned on me I was turning out of my street and it was at this moment crossed my mind. It might be kind of hard to have five kids dude. Yeah, yeah it's been it's been a trip. I mean just it's just the sheer number of it. And you know, you have the problem around here where like if you're trying to do work from home or take a phone call or do an interview at home and you have a napping kid, it's just like your house is just sectioned off and now I'm just sort of like running out of corners to hide in and do work and stuff like that.

12:31 So it's yeah, it's tricky. Best thing in the world though. I mean, like that's just. I love it. Obviously I love it or else I wouldn't have had this many kids, but. For home births, that's super interesting. What's what all entail? What all comes with that? Like do you first I the first thing that comes to my mind is pressure. I don't know why but is that is that? For who? Accurate? Everybody. For everybody. Everybody. No, it's. So, I mean it came about my wife had a baby pretty young before we met. And that's my stepson, who I later adopted. He's, yeah, never known his.

13:15 I've been dad for him. I've been, you know, the only dad he's ever known. It's something I'm very proud of. But the hospital experience for her especially, like being kind of young and kind of going through it alone, she felt, she felt pressure in there to like, you know, the doctor is like, this isn't moving quickly enough, etcetera. And like them trying to talk her into different procedures and whatnot and didn't have a good experience with it. And I had never heard of home birth. And she came to me after we were expecting and like talked me into it, had me watching documentaries, reading things. And I was so against it.

13:58 I like, like, this is crazy. How could you do, like, I've never been part of, like, an actual birth and this is what you're going to make me jump into? But I mean, I had to take her word for it. I wasn't going to be like, no, you have to go repeat this unpleasant process or whatever. And we found a midwife in Green Bay and she was just just great and just like totally, like, she's probably done a million times. Took me through the one O 1 FAQs. And yeah, I mean it was, it was less pressure. I like, from the outset, I would have expected all the pressure and everything to just high stress.

14:39 I think a lot of that just comes with the way births are portrayed on TV and movies. Like, oh God, my water broke. Oh yeah. But like, like it was just this kind of process of just coming to terms with it. And honestly, like getting to the point of maybe, you know, if this happens in a certain way, you have a backup plan. Like you have a written out backup plan. What you would want to happen if you need to do a transfer to a hospital for whatever reason and just establish a great relationship with the midwife. And I'm getting versed on all this stuff that, you know, it's like if it came down to it, could I deliver a baby like by myself?

15:25 And I'd like, I, I, I really We had a, We had our, the youngest son during COVID. And we honestly didn't know the hospital scene was going to be like at that point. So it was sort of just like, I mean everything was mysterious at that point where it's just like what is the world is there are there going to be hospitals in nine months? You know, it was like, so I was, I paid extra attention that time. And I was, I was at the point where it's like if I were, you know, the proverbial, like trapped elevator and a woman's going into labor, like I could have delivered a baby like I. But I mean the the scene itself is just like purely serene. It was just, you know, like candles and playing records and, you know, just super, super chill. Like, yeah.

16:14 Was this the Stones? My wife did not. She's she was. She was a beat. She grew up on The Beatles. She likes the Stones. But yeah. So then you're you're. Like you're like hearing. Lemon singing You're cursing at the. Back. No, I I do get a huge kick out of some of the songs that she puts on. I like she she'll make like like YouTube playlist and stuff like that to like have going at certain points and it's like all of a sudden like the misfits will come on Oh my God, I love you. Yeah, I can see that. Like the the intention around it is obviously to make it calm. Yeah. Oh yeah. So, and I guess it's a lot, we, our minds, generally stand the test of what they're put up to most of the time. Especially on that, you know, for babies, it's like you know what it's like You you go into it, you're never prepared, you don't know what to even prepare for, and then you just find you just draw from places within you that you didn't even know existed, or maybe only existed because of the circumstances or. Yeah, yeah.

17:22 And I think that's probably why, like all I remember and it's because I didn't have to be in that frame. I just remember not being able to talk when he came out. I I was like, I can't I? Oh dude, every single time. So I've I've caught all four babies in the in in a birth pool. And for whatever reason, as it gets going, I don't know if I'm just like not breathing enough. But my limbs like, always go numb and I'm always just, I feel like I'm, I don't even know, just wearing like huge foam things around my arms, like here's the baby full of jello. Yeah, I. Get it, man? Yeah, 55 had to be a change. It's funny you thought about it driving home after dropping. Yeah, yeah.

18:05 I don't know why it hit me only then, but I mean, maybe it's just as well. Did you? Have to buy a bigger vehicle. No, Like, so that's really funny. I I had a friend who I was talking to, a friend who had five kids when I had four. And I just kind of asked him, like, so what's, what's the difference between, you know, having five to four? And he's like, it's like, really none. If you've got a minivan, you can already fit them all. And it was like, gosh, that's so wonderfully practical. You're totally right, dude. So no, I didn't have to get a. Yeah. Well, that's good. Yeah, that's good. So and you know, thinking of that whole scenario, that wasn't enough of a change for you, right? You're going through another big change of career model. Oh my gosh.

18:49 I know, I know. I mean, so yeah, I I walked away from a full time copywriting position that I had worked for like 10 years to get. Like I had been. I I was, I was a freelance writer. I was building up My Portfolio, trying to just like, you know, always, always working, but always doing writing on the side. And I just kept getting rejected from positions that I was going for. And I was. I My last year of college, I had, I had interned at an ad agency in Green Bay archetype. It's no longer around. But it was something that I always sought to get back into and I just could not catch on anywhere and and it was just like, OK, it's got to be My Portfolio. I just need to keep adding to that. And I did and I would.

19:40 I was like pretty proud of it and everything. But as the years went on it was like the the window between application and rejection. Just like it was getting like smaller and smaller to where there was seriously one toward toward the end before I made a change of just like I think I got rejected in like 8 hours or something like that. Which you spend 3 days putting together everything. And then just to get that like that was just like, dude, something has to change here. Like what's the deal? Probably two things I don't have. I had an English, I double majored in English in film, so I didn't have a straight up marketing degree. Fine. I also didn't have full time experience, which you know, can't get it unless you have it, etcetera. The great Paradox, but.

20:25 The only one of those I could control was to get back or I just, I bit the bullet, went back for more schooling. That's where we met. And I started playing around with some classes and the scheduled builder and I was very experienced in that, having worked at N double ATC for 10 years and found out I could knock out the 24 credits I needed for a digital marketing degree in one semester. And was just like, do just do it, just grit your teeth and get over this. And yeah, I did that. I got hired like a week after I got done with it. So it was like, OK, that was clearly the missing piece or I'd like to think it was it. Had to be not like when you think of like I have no idea what was in your portfolio but the quality of your writing is unbelievable.

21:18 So it's like you it's clearly not that you know And then how frustrating is that though when you get to that, the paradox you mentioned of you know want three full year time, three years full time experience paying entry level type thing, it happens all the time. So you I wonder though, what is it like? It definitely wasn't only that, but what else comes with that decision like you to make that decision in life to like that's a big decision to go back to school, spend money making a 180° career change from what you were doing. How much of it is like and you'll never know, but how much can you attribute to actually like the degree having it? And how much of it was like mindset change or confidence in yourself or your abilities that cut you back on the on the? Track maybe.

22:15 Maybe it got me just like frustrated and focused and hungry enough to where it was just like I'm getting this thing now. This is I just invested four months and you know couple 1000 bucks into this and like, yeah, so yeah, maybe, maybe and you know could have just been timing. It could have just been like the right place finally opened up right when I really was hoping for it. I wouldn't mind it having like a month off after school, you know, whatever. Life's weird happenstances, man. Oh dude, yeah, it was. It was awesome. So I I was working at an agency full time. It was just, it's the best job I've ever had. It's the best full time job I've ever had. I loved doing it. Ultimately, it's almost like I loved the writing part of it too much. I would, I would be guilty of working and not through anyone's fault from the agency, you know, They would have certainly discouraged it.

23:04 But I I would work kind of just off the clock a lot just to make my work that much better. And it was just like I never quite learned how to calibrate the right effort level and detail level or passion level per project. And I eventually, after 19 months, decided like this is just unsustainable. I just had too many, too many late nights working, too many nights of being at the office all day coming home, logging back in. And it's, you know, trying to explain to my little kids I'm home, but I'm not. You know, it just, it got like, you know, I thought you're home from work. Well, you know, it just, it it got, it was unsustainable.

23:47 And I, you know, with the new baby coming up, it was like, well, you know maybe this will give me a chance to just kind of do a refocus here, which is a crazy thing to think through. But bear with me on this. Like I at the very least I thought, you know, usually you take some time off after having a baby. This time it's like I'll have the opportunity to kind of help get things ready beforehand and to make steps into the next phase of my career beforehand before I'm on that, you know, vaunted new dad sleep all over again. And and then, you know, certainly after where it's just like I my paternity leave is just kind of what I choose to make of it.

24:31 And this is, you know, this is going to be our last kid. So it's like I'm sort of just really soaking it up as such. And yeah, trying to trying to help around the house. I mean, it's, yeah, it's never been such a full house. Yeah, no. No shortage of things I can do to help out. Yeah. And I like you can, you can see how that line of thinking plays out, right? Like paternity leave is going to happen anyway. This is, this could be everything you just said. It still had to be hard to make that decision at that point. Yeah, well, just again, just working, I, I basically viewed that position for over 10 years as like that's it. Like that's that's what I got to get into. Then all my problems were solved and then I'm going to do that for the rest of my life.

25:19 And then you know, you just can't know things until you really get involved. And I mean I gave it the most honest effort I could and learned a ton which I'll use for the rest of my life. But it's like I the hardest thing that I had to learn from that was just like I'm not a great fit for doing this full time. And yeah, that was that was tough to do, but. Yeah, I think that'll that resonates with a lot of people, especially when you it's like a creative type thing, right? Like it's never perfect, it's never going to be perfect, but we always think we can make it perfect if we keep you know, tapping away. And I think what was there like a is there a was it a smoldering fire, was it like a the slow build up where you saw this coming on or was there like 1 like volcanic moment that was like this isn't sustainable long term? No, it was, it was it was slow building and and it was like there's a real risk of burnout in any kind of creative field. And I was just, I didn't want, I didn't want to get to that point where I was just like, I just threw my hands up and stormed out one day.

26:35 Or just like, I can't do this anymore. I was like, I wanted to at least get to a point where I was caught up with everything and have like like a clear head and just go, OK, I'm not stressed out. I'm not just reacting to the present. It's it's like I'm sizing this up as a viable career for years from now. And it's like, man, I just, yeah, didn't think it was. It's tough to know. It's tough to know. But I also didn't feel like I really made the decision. I even had a decision to make. I was just, I was, I was on that path to burnout. You know, when you're working at night on weekends and you just never really get away from it, you never get a chance to recharge. It kind of messes with you.

27:16 And it's like, I didn't like how that was messing with me. Like, you know, nobody would have has to work all the time and so. Was it? Was it a passion for creating, using the tool of writing that led to that being like your milestone objective or like what? What was the driving force behind it? Writing is. I mean, music was always my main passion, but basically in my lifetime I've watched that just kind of be devalued. I mean, even like yesterday Spotify announced they're going to be paying their artists even less. Oh really? Like, OK, like, cool.

27:57 It's nuts. So obviously, like, and especially if I wanted to stay in the Midwest, which I do, 'cause it's a lot easier to raise pile of kids here, I I I have never really been able to view that as like something I could just do full time music. So writing was always the thing that everybody always pushed me at. I've always been kind of like the resident guy where, hey, I wrote this thing, we check it out or you know, whatever that's I've been. I wrote for the school newspaper and high school and like, you know, I just, I always, I always liked it. And then I really tried to foster that going into college for for journalism at 1st and then switching to English just in general.

28:45 I thought I was going to be an English teacher, but I I, I also kind of treated, I've always kind of treated all that stuff as kind of like cross training for music. Like if I get better command of the written word, I'll be better at writing songs and stuff like that. So it was always kind of an afterthought, but it's more of a viable afterthought or it's more of a viable career path than than music is. But yeah, now even writing, gosh, I I hate to bring the spectre up, but now like about a year instead of being a copywriter, that's when AI really kind of reared its head and it was just like, so now even that's going to be devalued or just like the the idea that AI can do things instantly and free.

29:29 It's just like that's just going to make people, you know, second guess before they hire a writer and stuff like that. So yeah, I don't know I I have this like I I've never, I don't know, you're a creative guy and like you've you've always, you've always held down full time work and kind of gotten your creative kicks on the side. Like how do you, how do you feel about like that kind of compartmentalization? Yeah, it's it's valid, right? Like, especially it's hearing burnout, like that's why, you know. Similarly, I went through a thing where I worked in.

30:12 I spent a longer time doing it, but I was completely burned out working in broadcasting when I was leaving that field. What? What was? What was? I've never worked in it, so like what? What were the rigors that like LED you to want to walk away? Yeah, some of it was. Some of it was ironically the a bit of the devaluing. You're talking about it like radio. There was like this constant like thing nagging at the, I call them the suits, like anybody that runs the suits, nagging at the suits, heels, you know, like everybody thought like the next big thing was here and radio was on its way out and that was always a bit uncomfortable.

30:53 The the lack of security in that field in general was always a bit uncomfortable for me. Just for the medium. It just didn't, yeah. The yeah, because like the the the higher you grew in your career path, like the more apt you were to, like, lose your job, it seemed like at at some point. Like once you start pulling in whatever salary, it's like you, you kind of get a bullseye on your back. Because the market grows with it and like the certain pressures that come with that of like creating the right stuff consistently that people want to hear. But mainly for me that stuff was all dealable. Like it was frustrating at times, but it was dealable. But for me, it got to the point where it was like, it was almost there was this certain like facade about it, that it was like this tool that had all this power. Like similar to writing.

31:53 Like when you create something, you, you create a domino effect that happens after that for people. Like a big reason why I made the podcast, like, hoping to create a positive domino effect, right. And I didn't know consistently that that's what I was contributing to. And I think that's what ultimately started leading to my burnout. Like, yeah, I can produce, you know, 10 really cool spots in a day that are going to, like, sell a lot of cars or like, have people go get a bunch of good fish fries or like, whatever it was, you know? But like, did I have a My question to myself was did I have enough like creative control over that ownership to not only delineate what I was creating, but why I was creating it and who I was creating it for.

32:42 And that started not like that kind of chipped away at me more than anything else. And I didn't. It wasn't fulfilling enough for me that it led to, I wanted to kind of like transition to like using that power of words and creativity in a different way, I think. So compartmentalizing, to answer your question for me, I did that for a certain amount of time where it was like, you know, yeah, like people got to sell cars, people got to sell fish fries, People love fish fries. It's good. And there's nothing wrong with it either.

33:23 You know it's. The Lord's work, man. Fish fries going. Significantly, yeah. But I don't know. I think that's where the burnout came from, me like. So while you were doing that what I've what I've kind of found is it's almost like the closer I get to actually semi scratching that creative itch with a career, the less I have leftover to work on it in my free time. And so I don't end up compartmentalizing. When I was a full time copywriter, I I don't think I've ever read fewer books or spent less time reading and and writing for myself in my life than that. Because all day long it was the written word, the last thing I want to do.

34:09 Like you know, when I have a an hour, if only to just spare my eyes, it's just like dude, I want to be reading more words, you know? Yeah. 100% yeah. I never would have started a podcast at that time. Right, exactly. Yeah. And that would have been a. Stranger to do it after. I left, right. Yeah. So like that type of compartmentalizing I just, I kind of just keep going back and forth where it's just like should I just go further away from my passion for my day job and just like try and just get into a situation where it's like I'm not passionate about this whatsoever but it pays the bills. And then use the rest of the time for stuff that I really care about is that you know that's that's like kind of the debate and and and there are a lot of people out there you have different advice on that.

34:59 You know there's some people out there that are just like no, you need to get a job that you love doing every day. You need to get out of bed excited every day or you're not in the right field. It's like I don't know. I I don't know if that's like really possible. And that's fine. You know, I I I have a really good work ethic. So like that's fine. I'm just trying to yeah. Figure out the best way to feed all those baby birds you know? Yeah. Get a job you love and you won't work a day, Maddie. My God, yeah. That's such a pipe dream. Such a pipe dream. We all like. We all have stuff that we are naturally inclined to and better at and enjoy and that's great, but you can get that in so many different ways. I I think that's a really a really like, I mean not only is it an age-old question right?

35:47 Do you like, follow your passion and dreams or stay within? You know? Sure, that's an age-old question. Well, I had AI had a friend when I was younger and he, he and I were, it was like we were both just trying to figure out in in like late our late teens, like what on earth are we going to do with our lives. And he had the idea that you're kind of tortured by all your abilities. Or like, you know, maybe it's maybe it's a Midwest thing. Or we're just like we're just kind of told we can do anything. And it's like it's kind of like a trap in its own way where it's like if you can do anything, then you're going to choose not to do something.

36:30 And that's going to, like eat at you. And you're going to think, should I have done this or whatever? So yeah, it's pretty annoying to still be toiling with these questions this much further on, But I think they are age-old in some ways, yeah. Do you think the same thing would happen with music for you? If that ended up being a full time endeavor? Given you know, knowing you and and how much value you put on your familial situation, you probably wouldn't be a traveling musician, right? Well, I probably, I mean, if I would have really thrown myself into it. Like the truth is I wouldn't have a family. You know, if I would have moved to LA or Nashville, like Austin or whatever, you know, you're living in these super expensive places, clamoring to get gigs, playing out every night, going out to support other bands and network and all that and like, you know, at at no point would you stop and go, boy, I should really have a kid. That would really help right now. I mean, it's a little, it's maybe there's something counterintuitive about it.

37:34 I find myself totally inspired to, like, work harder and be better because of my kids. To honor that and all that, but it's just so impractical in those big cities. But I purposely didn't pursue music in college because I didn't want to get burnt out on my passion. So you were thinking about it even at that time? Yeah, yeah, yeah dude, it's so stupid. But I mean, well, anecdotally has clearly worked, right? Like the chip is in the pudding. You're still playing music. You still? Love it. I've gotten, yeah. I've gotten to live a very rich musical life, especially considering, like, I've never, I've never lived outside the Midwest.

38:14 So you're. Going to be slapping the bass for Wayne Newton. Oh my God, yes, that that was Where do I go from there, man? But so hypothetically, say you could skip that part. Like you could Wayne Newton? No. No, no, I wouldn't. Dream of, not even hypothetically. Don't torture him. Never skip Wayne Newton. Say you could skip that part. You were just talking about that. Actually in some ways social media has created a way around of for musicians who become like massive seemingly overnight some people. But say you could skip that part of like having to toil away, live in a really expensive area and and work on that exposure piece and like grow as an artist.

38:59 Say you could go to the next level and be a sustaining musician that could like build, build a comfortable life, touring 6 months out of the year and then writing and just skipping the part where there's the uncertainty. Would it then, if you forecast that right, would do you think the same? Thing would happen. Where it would turn into a job. Like maybe that's I, I don't know I I maybe I just need to tap into my inner Nietzsche and just like appreciate the struggle of all this or something like that. But yeah, I I don't know it's it's so tough to say. Like that sounds fantastic. But you know, maybe it's it only sounds that way till you get into it or yeah. Yeah, so that leads you to.

39:48 Now, you said that you're doing music, you left the copy, or you're doing some freelance copyright work and you're doing some tree work. Oh yeah, a little bit of tree work on the side. So if. You cut down a tree this big. Not quite, not quite, no, I don't think so. Gosh, we were working on one last week though that was really might have been about this big. It rivaled it, Yeah. How are you? How do you enjoy that type of work so far? Well again it's just sort of this this back and forth between should I just go straight up learn a trade And I I did I I bailed out of office life for to work as a house painter for a year and a half before I went back into marketing or you know maybe an honest effort at writing and it's just sort of this idea of I'm just going to do something and just get this kind of physical work that's not going to that has anything to do with my actual passions and then just see if there's anything left over for that. But I've been I've been helping out my buddy justice that's that's pales tree service POEHLS tree service out of Appleton he's amazing.

40:59 He is actually also an English major has four kids he he took an album cover photo on on tin type for for me a couple years ago so we've known each other for a while so in some ways he's kind of just totally leaned into the the trade aspect versus the arts. But I I I mean it's it's just a perfect amount I I can help him as much as I want to and it kind of gives me a just a day or two a week to just kind of scratch like that kind of physical work itch and just you know I'm not I'm not tied down at any path right now. I'm grateful for that as a supplement. And yeah, it's cool to work with a with a buddy like that too.

41:42 Yeah, it's it's like it excites me to like think about your position because like that's. Cool Well. Like I have a like the unknown I I really lean into change. Like I kind of like change. And like I I enjoy it. And like you have like seemingly an endless amount of things that could be your next step. How do you feel about that endless amount? Of things. Well, the one thing that I've kind of I I this is something that I couldn't foreseen until I just sort of put myself in this position where it's like, OK, I've I've got a few freelance clients right now and I'm digging that.

42:27 I've got music work that's going on. I have a a solo album that's going to be out later this year, hopefully waiting on the vinyl for that. I have tree work. I have a new website about local events that I'm rolling out in a little while here, and I'm helping friends put together movies and like pitch decks for their movies and stuff like so it's it is neat to to have this luxury to kind of do all this stuff. But what I couldn't have known until I got into this position was I think you need to be, I think you need a certain personality type to really thrive in a situation like I have and I'm not sure that I have that.

43:11 And that's that's kind of like someone who's very, I'll I'll say aggressive, but I don't mean it in a bad way like, I mean it in a way that I actually, well, I but in a way like in a way that I actually, I think it's like a rare and special quality. Like I don't know that many people that are actually like that. A lot of people just sort of hang back and like, that's my I'm I'm just like trying to figure out like, am I actually not that or am I just being a coward or whatever, but right. Is there something innate holding me back? Yeah, well, I I just like, I still kind of feel like my best role is in a sort of support role and that's the role that I have right now or you know, this conglomerate of roles. It's like, I need to kind of be this and ambitious guy in a way that I've never, I've never had to be. I've never had to lead myself, you know? And I don't know if that's just like, I need to work on my leadership development or it's just like, no, dude. Just get into somewhere.

44:11 You're like old enough to know who you are naturally to where I like get into a role where you know, I I do like, I do like those roles. Like when I'm working with a a freelance or as a freelance role and I'm writing with somebody who has the vision, like I feel totally alive when I'm helping that person you know live out his or her vision. And it's just like, yeah, I I, I thrive in that situation and yeah, so. The power to tell a story is a is sure is a a very powerful thing. Yeah, yeah, I dig that. I hate the way that that term has been kind of bastardized and marketing where it's yeah, what's your story like? Who cares? What? Well, everybody always said Kmart. Yeah.

44:52 Who? Who really cares about Kmart's story? The end. But yeah, yeah, it's just like, you know, story, man. You know, like Cinderella's a story. You know, like, yeah. Yeah. So a couple of those things I want to pluck out and talk a little bit about today, the the website that seems like that's going to build off of Mattie Day Verified. Oh, heck yeah, man. So that was. How did that, how did Mattie Day Verify come to life and what do you do with that? So I was. I got off of social media entirely during COVID because it was just like, that was just my only exposure to people.

45:33 And The thing is like on social media, everybody's kind of, you know, everyone who uses social media is sort of like their own PR person. And The thing is 99% of them are terrible at it. And you know, you just have this exposure, you have this exposure to people. And it's like, I know I don't, I don't love what you put out here. I I love you. But like if if all you have is like that version of somebody was just like I just need to walk away from this. Like, it was just kind of a negative time to be on there. And I didn't have anything to promote or anything like that. So it's just like, it wasn't, it wasn't irresponsible for me to to get off. So I was totally off social media I made. I had to get back on for the classes that we were doing. Like I had to make an Instagram account for the first time and I had to just, yeah.

46:27 Then eventually working at an ad agency, I had to get back on. I had to get back on Facebook because I couldn't even see posts for our clients that I was putting out there. So I kind of just got back in and just took that chance to like at least try to your class. And and just some of the other ones really kind of taught me like the difference between, oh, I'm just this expressive creator and you know, I'm just doing this to to to get it out of me or whatever. It's like, dude, yeah, if that were really true, you would just put all this time in and then stash it in your closet and not show it to anybody. Like, there is a sliding scale between I want people to know about this and I want people to experience this and I want to share it with people.

47:11 And it's just like, I recognize that there was something disingenuous about my dislike of promotion or marketing because it's like, I do want people to know about this. And as a fan of music, it's like if bands weren't out there putting their stuff out there, I wouldn't even know who they are. You know, you got to kind of just recognize that, call it a necessary evil, if you will, but it's like, it's definitely necessary. So I kind of matured through, like your class and some of the other ones begrudgingly and started to, you know, work at an agency and was learning how to do this for other people. And, you know, genuinely putting these things into play and seeing it work for these other companies. And I thought, well, you know, I put in all this hard work. I've always done all these different projects and and everything.

47:59 And it's like, it hasn't been about making money. It's just been like I want to entertain my friends. Or like, you know, I want to show my city a good time. Or like, you know, I want this to be a fun tour or whatever. And it's like, well, dude, like figure out how to get that word out there, figure out how to, you know, spread the word. And I had been playing all these different bands, writing for different publications and everything, and I just thought, why don't I just make a public page for myself and I can just kind of use that as like a home base for everything. And I just kind of tongue in cheek, called it Maddie Day verified because I'm too small time to actually be verified.

48:40 But. Which is the use of its size. My lap so hard the first time I saw it. That's awesome. Yeah, so is that the? Is that the main objective of it is sharing local events, or do you see it branching out to other places? Like what's your or is it? Well, I mean I I kind of just used it as you know like part of it is like it's honestly a bit of like attempts to game the algorithm by posting regularly and like getting interaction regularly. So like, you know, I I was just trying to think of different ways to do that. And when I probably about 10 years ago, I was writing for Green Bay Scene newspaper, which is no longer around and then and then later on frankly Green Bay newspaper or magazine, which is also no longer around.

49:35 But I was in charge of the events list on those, right. I went to my editor because, frankly, it was because I would look at these events lists and I wouldn't see my own shows in them. And I go, where are you getting these? Who's doing this? Like, you're missing out on all this cool stuff like present company included. And like, I I just offered to do it and and I asked about it and the editor was like, I hate doing that. That's just like, that's the most tedious part of my job. If you would take that off my plate, I I would pay you to do it. And I'm just like, oh, sweet, awesome. So I I went hard at those lists. I would try to make the most comprehensive list of all events going around and Green Bay de Pier Howard Schwab, not, you know, whatever.

50:19 And I I I did that for years. I mean I would I would spend a good 10 hours like just scouring everything to just like make these huge event lists And then I would hear people say like man, is there anything going on this weekend? And I'm just like, why? Are you kidding me, dude? Like, dude, like, my own friends didn't even know that I was doing this list. And I don't know it it kind of, I always felt this sort of civic duty of like, there's great stuff going on in Green Bay. It drives me nuts when people are like, there's nothing that happens here. Like, dude, try, you know, whatever. But to their credit, when I was off Facebook for whatever reason, just in Green Bay, like that's that is the hub for like all events. Like I when I was not on there, I missed out on so many cool things where it's just like I'm trying to find this stuff, I can't even do it and it's just 'cause I'm not on there getting invited to whatever.

51:11 And I don't know, I just kind of reassess like maybe instead of having this comprehensive list of everything, maybe curate it a little bit more. And like, you know, I've been active in the local entertainment scene where it's like people trust me to be like, oh, you know, oh, if Maddie says this is cool, maybe this is, you know, worth doing or whatever. And, you know, granted, I try to get variation in there, like sometimes stuff for kids or whatever, too. But yeah, I just started. I started doing a weekly list on there. It was just kind of like resurrecting my old, like, ways of trying to promote local events and stuff like that. And yeah, I loved doing that.

51:52 GB half, GB half. Yeah. When I when I was with, frankly Green Bay, it was like I got asked to come up with a hashtag and that was like, that was what I came up with. And yeah, so that wasn't being used anymore. So I reclaimed that. And yeah, so now depending on when this airs or whatever, like that's, we're just in super early stages of getting up a website to try to take it, you know, like have like a non social media thing and try to get like a mailing list and stuff like that and maybe like branch into other area cities and stuff like that. Just yeah, I'd love for it. Not I'd love for you not to have to be on facebook.com to know like what's going on in Green Bay.

52:32 It's like it's a little silly and I don't know. I hear from people that they would appreciate it too, so shut up. Everybody would. Well, I mean, my wife and I find ourselves doing that, like checking out the Facebook events to see what we want to do that weekend, especially for like kids activities too. Like that's where that's where you go. And if there's a a place to do that that I don't have to, like get sucked into scroll in the Feed for a while. Totally or yeah. Yeah. So that's the goal. I'll still, you know, I'll have like my kind of recommendations, but then I'll probably make it a bit more comprehensive and maybe like filterable like where like you know kids events or food and drink etcetera, that type of stuff. What kind of time are you putting in the now to collect the events going on?

53:16 It still can't be the quickest. No, it's not. I mean it's kind of, it's kind of throughout the week like I just basically if if I'm around and like seeing things or getting invited to things like I just accrue throughout the week this huge list of like status interested Facebook events and then just kind of go with it from there. And then just I I takes me, I don't know, hour and a half to compile it all and just, you know, try to tag everybody and you know. The evolution of that's going to be super interesting, man, because you see like if that continues to grow, which it probably will, you'll turn in. You'll turn from a like a a searcher and a curator to like a like a delineator, where it's like people are going to be reaching out to you with their. That would be.

54:03 That would be so cool. Especially, you know, like it's one thing for me to do this in Green Bay where it's like I've got my finger on the pulse as firmly as anybody, but it's like I don't have that in Appleton as much or in Oshkosh as much or, you know, whatever. So, yeah, but this was, I had just been doing this. Like I was just doing this for just myself and my friend Sam, who I'm playing with in Wayne Newton. I do all sorts of stuff with these Appleton guys. They're just super talented. Sam engineered records that I've done and he's just like crazy player. But then he also builds websites. It's just like, dude, who are you? But yeah, so he came to me and he's like, have you ever thought about trying to do this somewhere else and, you know, getting it off of there and keeping it on there too? But yeah, so this was, it's kind of a collaborative thing. Now we're going.

54:53 Somewhere that you can monetize a little bit easier too, which is nice. Yeah, that's like part of the goal too, So. Awesome Mattie Day. Verified coming soon in a different location. It'll it'll have. It'll have its own name yet. I won't, I won't roll that out quite yet. But it's the. Secret. OK, so OK, the second part of that then that I wanted to pick out solo album, Yeah, that's exciting. Something you something you've done before. No, no. Again, I'm not much of A leader type. So like this was like I've always just been a great bandmate and contributed songs for other bands and everything, but I've never done this and it came from, it's not like I, you know there were people who wrote songs during COVID and stuff like that.

55:39 I I didn't. I was like so done with music when COVID hit like it's where I was just like yeah forget that like I'm I'm just, I can't believe I wasted time on that, etcetera. Like it was just like I was pretty burned out on music going into COVID. Like, I was thinking I was done with it. And then after a while of that, it was just like, OK, but you know, like, I mean, I'm a lifelong. I've been writing songs since I was a teenager, like working on it. And I'm super dorky about it. Where, like, I have, I have just all these different files on my computer of, like, categories of lyrics and stuff like that, where it's just like, oh, that's cool Social commentary. Oh, that's romantic. Oh, that's like catchy or whatever. Like I I've had these like files going for 20 years and I was just like dude, you know, all that like you know, all those tape recorded things, all those memos to self and just like you're really just going to just just be done. Like once the reality of that hit me, I was just like, OK, like you got to try to do something with this. And there were a number of songs that I had just always kind of felt like I I'm going to record that someday. And then it was just like, OK, well, let's just make a list of those.

56:53 And I like an album title like struck me one day. And it was just like, you know, I've been in a lot of different types of bands, like rock'n'roll bands, pop bands, soul bands, country bands and stuff like that, where it's just like, I don't ever write necessarily for a band sometimes, but like, a lot of times I just write a tune. If it suits a band, great. Sometimes you bring it to a band, It's like not, not so much, but like, I had all these songs that were kind of just like these bastards like that. I just never they meant a lot to me, but like, they never fit great with any of the any, any given project. So I found a way to try to stitch that into one album. I just started calling in favors from like, anyone who I'd ever played with. And my buddy Sam again, I, I did a bit of painting work for him. It's like a bit of a barter thing to be like, would you engineer this?

57:45 And yeah, I've just been just fairly sporadically, you know, at at most once a week for a couple hours. We'd get together over a year and a half and and track things together and get guest musicians and stuff like that. And yeah, super. It's been like the thrill of my life to put this together. Like I don't know if I'll ever do it again. I've just like cherished the heck out of it for what it is. And the songs can't really be played live either because like every song has a different lineup of people and that's like suited to people's skill sets and stuff like that. So it's not like I could just get together a band. And it's really, it's it's a bit produced too. Like you're just, you know, I don't know if we'd be able to to do that.

58:27 Like one song we'll have like a New Orleans brass section on it and like the next will just be like a stripped down rocker. Like, yeah, it's not anything I'm going to do live, but I'm trying to put it out there for people. I think people will like it. I'm printing it on vinyl, which is super expensive, so I hope people like it. That's what I was, that that was obviously going to be one of my next questions if you were going to like follow it up with live shows, but it's interesting to create a piece that you don't see that being possible. No, I mean the inspiration of it was largely out of being like absolved of the questions.

59:08 You know you if you're in a band it's like boy that's neat, but how would we do that live Or like you know you if you if you kind of go into a recording session that way and then you try to represent it live, it can just totally fall short. Or like like a a big thing with like rock bands is if you have like these kind of multi track songs or whatever where there's like a cool hook doing this, like cool backup vocals and whatever. But then like live, you're just this stripped down band. You kind of just have to play it faster and like it'll fill it all in, which is like a thrill of its own. But it's like you're never going to be able to do justice to what you do on the record.

59:49 And this time, like, for the first time, I was just like, yeah, great, Let's, like, let's just make this sound how we want it to and like, not care at all about how to represent it live and yeah. And make it tricky to sell these things without playing gigs but I don't know. I what I thought about is just doing doing some solo shows like straight up acoustic where it's like there's no pretense like I'm not trying to represent these or something like that But we'll see haven't haven't quite turned the corner on that. The focus has just been on like, yeah, like even yesterday I got the the art proofs back from the the vinyl company and I found out I had stuff turned the wrong way and color was wrong. It's just like I'm still in the weeds on on all that, so.

1:00:30 Yeah, super exciting, though. When did you say you think it's going to be like Ready Ish? The vinyl is supposed to be, I mean, I'm calling it a 2023 album, but the vinyl is out. The the estimate for the vinyl is early January. So yeah, but I I shot a music video last week that yeah, I'm going to do videos like. So that's going to be really fun. I've never really. I don't have much experience with that. OK. Yeah. Nice, man. That's super exciting. I I think about when you said coming into COVID you were going to be done with music, it brought me to a different place in time. There was this dude that I knew in the last place I lived and he was a solo show guy. He would go to different like bar and restaurants to do a solo show, solo acoustic. Just really passionate about music in general. It was all covers and he had been flowed like, I knew this dude for probably seven years or so and I think he quit and started like retired and started music like three times. Even.

1:01:28 When I knew him and I like it, makes you think about the burnout thing, right? Like sure. Is that what it is? Well, I mean part of it was like that last like 2019. I I I was gigging hard and just like just gone a lot. And my daughter was three at the time, so she was aware that, like, she would start to cry when I would leave. And it was just like, OK, this really better be worth it, dude, You're like bringing your little girl to tears like this. This better be worth it. And it just got me thinking more about just like, how I'm spending my time and and all that. But yeah, it was weird. I don't know.

1:02:09 It was, it was just interesting to be like, yeah, I don't need that. And then be like, well, cool, You can't have it anyway, Like, and then and then to just kind of come around and think, like, am I really going to snuff this out? And it's like, I I can't quite explain it, but in a lot of ways I fell harder for music than ever before. And just like, yeah, I've like never had as much fun doing it as as I have now. And yeah, like the the results on the album will bear that out. Nice man. Yeah. How would you, how would you describe it? It sounds like if if it's kind of that amalgam of. It's totally different. Yeah. It's all over. It's like, I mean, I I love, I always liked like 1968 was a really just cool year for for music. What?

1:02:56 Which album did The Beatles put out that year? 68 would be. I don't know, I don't want guessing me wrong. OK, I I, I was hoping you would like confirm, but I mean, I'm almost positive it's the White Album. So like, how would you describe the White Album? You know, it's like a it's like a sprawling thing and you know, part of that is from like the different. Yeah, nice. I I always loved there was like just an area, an era of like, and a lot of it was in 1968 where just albums got to be really eclectic where it was just like, you know, technically psychedelic. But what does that even mean? You know, like, how do you what what what is like psychedelia by numbers or whatever. It's not like they're just things to it's like a state of mind and it's just like it's an exciting thing to listen to that he just often jumps genres and and styles and and stuff like that and but maybe has like a cohesive thread through it. So it's like, yeah, I'm, I'm all over on this thing. There's there's bluegrass, there's rock'n'roll. There's like country psychedelia. There's like spaghetti western type stuff. Rockabilly.

1:04:10 I don't know. It's it's it. It sprawls like every, every song we did. It was interesting. We I'd never done a record this way, but we would start each song uniquely. Like a lot of times you go into a studio and you'll record drums and bass for every song right away and then build on top of those one by one. But this time we would we actually did it in the order of the record too. But like we would start on a song, work on it until it was done, and then go on to the next song and then start on it entirely and work on it until it was done. And then yeah, I'd never been a part of something like that. But it's it still has like a I'd like to think it has a threat of like my own peculiar morality like that runs through it or my wisdom that is like there's like themes and you know, stuff that only I'll really notice maybe. But yeah, I think, I think we pulled it off and then got a great mastering job of Justin Perkins down in Madison to really kind of just give it like a cohesive vibe throughout. Are you a Doors fan?

1:05:12 I like the doors, yeah. Some of that stuff, some of that stuff makes me think of their music in a way. Like you there was there was always a cohesive blend to all door songs, like with Ray playing the the organ and stuff. But like there's so many different like like you people label it as like psychedelic music, but there's so many different layers of that. For The Doors. There's like Spanish caravan with like the Go guitar and then there's like, you know, Roadhouse Blues with the car and then just like the the backbeat and stuff. And I don't know, that's that's what flows through my mind when I hear something like that. It's like, I think that's how that's probably how Jim thought, man, I don't.

1:05:55 Think he was trying to like? He was trying to make a streamlined, you know, sound from beginning to end. I think he just kind of had words that he wanted to get out. No, totally. And he's Jim Morrison was a a big fan of Friedrich Nietzsche 2. So am I. And that's he's all over my album like that in that regard. Yeah, so big fan of writing in general. Do you know how The Doors got their name? The band The Doors got their. Name it was. Aldous Huxley, The Doors of Perception. I have way too much of that rubbish up here, yeah. Man, it's kind of what I thought of. And then another question, do you listen to Billy strings? You know Billy strings at all.

1:06:36 I have like seen videos online. I like he seems like a talented player and like kind of a unique character. Like I've kind of heard a bit about his story and all and but yeah, I don't. I don't know if he has actual songs like the the biggest thing with like talented players is it's like cool, but what are you going to what are you doing with it? You know people who just like play just a shock with their virtuos virtuosity. It's just like, it doesn't. And I'm not saying that's him. I honestly don't know. I haven't. I haven't checked him out enough to. What do you think of him? Oh, I know he's like a slick player. Like I've seen him playing with other people and like just taking solos and it's like, Dang dude, like that's like there's like no, like between like thought and expression. Like there's like there's like nothing. There's like no space.

1:07:20 Like he's just yeah. Yeah, he does that classic guitar thing. When someone's like really good at the guitar, their mouth moves when they play and it's like it's almost like it's coming out of his mouth at the same time. Interesting. I don't. Know if you've ever. Seen it, I mean, not not for him. I mean, I used to like, laugh my head off watching John Mayer, like look like he was trying to like bite his elbow. But like, I don't know. It's tough to know how much of it is is for show, how much of it is just like raw passion and what not. But I know. Again, I don't know anything about Billy Strings in that regard or whatever. Like he seems like a good guy. It just made me think of it because he's like psychedelic bluegrass like he.

1:08:02 Oh truly. Melded two types of music together. He's got like a like the really like obviously like jammy stuff of bluegrass. Sure. But like there's a there's a flair about it that brings it into like that psychedelic realm. It's musically it's unbelievable. He's a he's a he's a good songwriter. Like, I don't know. I'm. I'm a songwriter. Like Snob, I guess like. Good man. Like why would you fill your yeah like he's. Got a couple that went really, really viral. Like he's got a song called Dustin a Baggie that was really creatively written and stuff. So I mean, he's good. He's not like Isabel or something like that though.

1:08:42 It's like blowing your doors off with his songwriting. But yeah, he just a unique blend of music put together. What about Sturgill? Do you listen to Sturgill? I take him, I I I have the. I think it's the second one, the. Metamodern sounds. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. OK. And like it's it's interesting. It's, it's it's interesting with what he did. I only recently heard some stuff of his notes like, dude, this is awesome. What, what? When did this come out? And it was his first album, which like, I think like a lot of like Sturgill hardcore fans kind of like.

1:09:23 That's where they came. From I kind of, well, no. I kind of got the sense that everyone kind of like snug their nose that including him where he's just like, oh, I'm just trying to rip off my idols and it's like, dude, that's cool. I love your idols like that's and that's really hard to do And they were like clever songs. It was just like sweet playing. So I want to I want to check that one out a little bit more. That's that's when I became a Sturgill. Fan that first record. With that out, like I think like that's like life of sin. He's got a song called You Can Have the Crown that's really like creatively written in it. I think I heard that one, yeah. Yeah, so clever guy. That early stuff was great. And then he almost like you could tell he deliberately painted himself out of that box.

1:10:05 Like you were just saying. Because he didn't. And like, that's fine. I just it's it's kind of a shame like it. It just seems like when an interesting artist comes out now, like the piranhas, just like Swarm, like it's like, wow, something interesting. Get it, get it. Like exploit it. Like wow. But like, you know, like Amy Winehouse was one or it was just like, wow, Cool. Fall Out Boy was like another one where it's just like these people don't have a chance to like breathe and live. I I think like, there's just so it's so rare when there's some kind of crossover success or whatever, or like there's just, I think there's the very low tide of creativity right now.

1:10:46 So when you get someone who's actually creative and people like it and it connects with people, it's like, it's just just there's like a rabid deconstruction of it or whatever and just almost like a suffocation of it. And you see these people either kind of, I don't know, like self immolate or whatever and and some sad cases or otherwise. I feel like there's this sort of disingenuous like self backlash or something where it's like you think I'm going to do this, Well, I'm going to do this. And it's just like, what about you actually want to do like, why? Like it's still I I don't know how you could block out all that stuff to not react to it, but it just like it felt like for me.

1:11:31 I I wish that Sturgill would have maybe just like, I don't know. Maybe he like did what he always wanted to do. Maybe that was like the record and maybe he needed to do the one kind before he can make what he really wanted to do. Maybe, I don't know. But it also just it just sort of seen this just phenomenon for a couple people are like, you know I don't I don't care about Fall Out Boy at all. But like it was just interesting from their first breakthrough mainstream thing to like their next album. It was like they're already like parodying themselves and stuff. It was just like, come on. Like you're just just be who you are. Like, who cares if you know, whatever. Again, I I don't know how hard it would be to have to block out all of that, all that noise. Yeah, yeah.

1:12:15 Yeah, it's, and I think a lot of that. I think you're dead on it comes with that meteoric rise. Like it'll be interesting to see where Zach Bryan goes, like he seems like he's like every song he writes is has a style of of like what he does, but like just him like coming of age in like 2 years and now selling out massive arenas and stuff. That would totally mess with somebody. I mean, like that would be almost like traumatizing on some level. Like fame I think is like, I love the band the Darkness and their singer has this fantastic show YouTube channel and he had a he had a just a line about like how fame is like a form of trauma And he was like wow, it's kind of interesting. Dude never really thought of it that way and like how much that would mess with you.

1:13:00 So I'll walk back my critique a little bit and just say like, I would. I like I can't you know like the idea of how's it going with this the I'm just I totally lost him man. I was thinking about the darkness now. I saw those cat suits in my head. Yeah man. You're right though. Like the he's Zach Bryan's getting lambasted right now by some people online because like he got arrested in Oklahoma and he was like kind of he was like off putting to a cop. Like he was kind of like.

1:13:40 Oh, sure. Like he got arrested and he ended up like and it was all because his bodyguard got arrested but or got pulled over and a couple days earlier he had like it had another interaction with the cop. But it all stems from this fame thing dude. Because like the whole reason the cop got mad at him is because he said his address on his license wasn't current when he got pulled over and he was like reluctant to give that information. Like I think rightfully so dude. Like 2 years into being like massive, you know, you navigate that like. Dude with his. Body cams and stuff like, you know, it's going to go on YouTube. And like I'm sure he's thinking in that moment like if I say my address here like a bunch of people know where I live, I'm going to have to sell my house and move type like, so how did he's not equipped to handle that when three years ago. He's in the military.

1:14:30 He's just like an everyman. You know. And now? Now he's getting lambasted because of, like some decisions he made, being reluctant to give his address. Like, I I don't think it's probably a reflection of his character. It's a reflection of a mind space that you're in from that, like meteoric rise. And then to to deal with that and just kind of like get like listen to the music that's in your head like and and reproduce like what I was trying to think of earlier was just this the concept, the famous concept that you have your whole life to write your first album and then like a year to write your second. You know like to where it's just like during that noisy period after you rise. You know you had just such luxuries of creativity and you know like coaxing the muse to like in all these ways and it's like you just it'd be it'd be tough to trust your yourself and trust your instincts in that whole new level. So I do have sympathy for those people. Yeah, it seems like that was.

1:15:31 That's maybe what happened to Tyler Childers a little bit do. You. Oh, really? I think so. Like I'm. I'd like Zac Bryant. I'd like Tyler Childers. I'd like these. I'm like peripherally aware of these people. I gotcha. I have like, admittedly the opposite of recency bias when it comes to music. Like if something is new, I am like there's like a mountain of skepticism it must overcome and. It's before I I was just listening to the episode of Jelly Roll on Joe Rogan and Jelly Roll was like, I don't listen to music that made was made after that. I can't remember what year he said 1975 or something. He's. Like I don't. I don't listen to it. So I did it, man. Who are who are some of your, like, songwriting inspirations?

1:16:13 Like, who do you look up to as a songwriter? I really do like a lot of the country songwriters I've really like. One of my favorites is Roger Miller, just 'cause he's so clever and does so much with so little. But I I don't know, I've gotten more kind of into just the sounds of music as well. Like I was always very like structural and trying to like fit the right words in and maybe maybe writing words a bit burst and trying to shoehorn him into songs and stuff like that. But I mean I like I love I love Elvis. Like it's like if I if I had like Desert Island artist like I would just bring Elvis's catalogue just cause it's huge and just like the songwriting it's just impeccable.

1:16:59 So that's a you know those are the best songwriters in the world at the time so it almost should be. But I don't know. Weirdly enough, I've the first time in my life I've. I've kind of gotten into like 80s music. I've never cared about it before, but like now just the production of it where it's just like, this is really interesting. Like I love like Depeche Mode and The Smiths and gosh, like my worst now lately is 90s and it's Oasis. Like, I just like, I'm like, I'm just, I'm crazy about like British music from like getting more current. Yeah, I'm getting there, man. I'm getting there. Yeah. Oh man, it's so funny. Like, whenever I do find a new band that I like, it's like The Darkness, where it's like, you sound like you're from the 70s or like Shannon and the Clams and you sound like you're from the 60s. Or like, I find these bands that, like, I'd. Well, I finally found one.

1:17:48 Like, well, yeah, shocker. It's like some dude who sounds like Elvis or something like that, Yeah. And it makes me think of I was. I can't even remember who I was having a conversation with the other day, but somebody told me they they watch, stop making sense. The talking heads think once a month, and I felt like it had to be an embellishment. I was like, you watched that once, once a month. Like, that's a pretty bold statement. Yeah. And. What could be gleaned after I know. Just to keep keep the creative juices going I. Guess just to keep those limbs limber. Man, he knows I'm stiffing it up. Better watch the movie. Yeah man. So.

1:18:30 So it sounds like solo album Maddie Day verifies day out of five cutting trees. Like, I don't know. Not that you maybe even have a chance to sleep right now, but I would say I don't know when you when you sleep. Gosh, I I mean, I I do OK. It's just like I and like I I cherish these years like as much as I possibly can. You know like when it's like like what? What a wonderful way to get woken up by like my 2 year old son like coming and just like hi daddy like right in my face like hey, all right cool gosh you're cute. Like you know just yeah, so I I don't know.

1:19:11 I get by I almost find it's more probably more important for me to make sure I'm getting physical activity. Like that's like the harder thing that like there's almost like this selfish aspect about like saying to my wife like can you handle all of them. I'm going to go downstairs and weight lift and I don't want to like whack one of the kids in the head with a dumbbell. You know like I you know I'm where I'm basically just it feels self indulgent but it also I don't know years ago I just I found I needed physical activity as a means of getting out of my brain getting into my limbs. It's about the closest thing to like meditation that I that I do or like you know I go running a few times a week. I never bring music with me. It's it's just like I count my breaths and like that's like I kind of clear my head and like inadvertently and. I have to do that.

1:20:01 Like I I can, I can feel something's wrong with me or like I'm getting edgy if it's been a while since I've done something physical. So, you know, it's it's a bit, I don't know, not once. I don't want to discount sleep. It's just like, yeah, I I really need like the physical activity to just kind of feel like myself. Yeah, myself. I came to that realization later in my life than I thought I would about how important the connection between that and just like overall mental health is. And I think a lot of the reason was because, like throughout my whole life, I did it just for enjoyment. Like I played basketball a lot. So I always, like, had those outlets where I didn't have to think about it and how it was benefiting me positively. This is something I like doing.

1:20:46 So I did it. And then I I stopped playing basketball for a while. And then towards the end of that, I was like, I started to notice that thing where it was like the the anxiousness builds up. Inside of you, yeah. And I don't know, I don't know how to describe it then. Maybe that's the right word or something. Yeah, it's like, I think edgy was a very good way to put it for me. And like, I, I and then I somehow, like, seemingly made that connection where I was like, OK, maybe I need to do that again. So then I started playing basketball again and it was fine. Nice. But then in the spring, I sprained my ankle badly and I haven't been able to play basketball since. And I like, yeah, in the spring, yeah, I'm probably to the point where now it's just a mental hurdle. Like I think I'm back to.

1:21:33 I could if I wanted to, but I've like started finding other outlets. Like in my younger years I I'd like to lifting weights and stuff a lot. But then I I always kind of said I would never do it again because it was never something I enjoyed. I didn't feel like working towards another thing, you know, but now I've been like doing it for like enjoyment because of that. Has to find a a way to kind of like let that out or let it in whatever, whatever way you want to look at it. Well, I mean the the other side effect is, you know, like my dad was a runner and I always totally took that is a runner and I always took it for granted that, you know, he just did that. And yeah, I like it just made it so normal for me to think I'm going to go for a jog or whatever.

1:22:20 And now with my own kids, it's like they see me exercising and stuff like that and they want to do it like they and it's like wow, I hadn't thought of that at all. Like maybe it's not totally self indulgent after all but like my dad and me are going to we're going to run the Turkey trot with my daughter this year and it's just like you know it's just kind of cool, nice. I like passing that on to them And I I never, I never thought about like what how how you know. It's not like I just decided one day I'm going to get some running shoes and go out there. Like, you know, I I I was taught it and it's kind of it feels good to to show them that it's normal to do this thing that has helped me mentally and physically.

1:23:04 Yeah, yeah. I think that's an important revelation that's really come to light seemingly in like the last like you know I'd say five to seven or ten years about how important it is the connection to mental health. It's always been said you should stay active and work out. That's always been said but right never really. The why wasn't told behind it very well I thought. And now it seems to be so hopefully that it keeps trending in that direction I guess. I think there's also a change. Like when you're younger, you have this idea that you want to get built and like, yeah, six pack and all this stuff and it's like. Driven by ego. Right. Well, it's just like there's like this younger drive to want to be like successful rather than valuable or you know, or like, you know, it's like you want to look strong rather than be strong or something like that. It's like now it's like I don't care how I look or, you know, I do, but it's not like that's not my driving force. It's more just like, I want to be able to, I want to be physically healthy when I'm 80, You know, it's like that's like way more what it is.

1:24:09 Yeah, I want to be like, be able to play with my grandkids and you know. Yeah, yeah. The guest on our last show ran a Boston Marathon when he was 72, and that amazed me. And then he tried again. I don't want to get it wrong here, but I think, he said. If I remember right, he tried again at 80 and wasn't able to finish, but that's still amazing. He's rather forgivable, yeah. And he's like. To have the notion that you might be able to do it at 80 like. Wow. Yeah. Oh, that's nuts. Yeah. So working towards that mountain, you know, is a lot different than. His first was that his first marathon or no, he must. He used to like you have to you have to run a lot to get into the Boston right? Yeah, he said.

1:24:53 He had run like seven or eight. I think he had done Boston in New York like the bigger ones but yeah when I hearing that like I don't know aspire to run a marathon at 80 but if we're still around moving around and. Look, it's interesting to see like, you know, we're we're kind of getting to this time where we're seeing like some, you know, life expectancies like go into just shocking. Like people. Where it's like the fact that anyone was like when in history would it have been whatsoever fathomable that a person could run 26.2 miles, that even try to run it at age 80 and you know, look at The Rolling Stones, what they're doing, it's just sort of like, it's kind of just amazing. This is this is uncharted territory where it's just like, how how long can you rock it before the wheels fall? Off.

1:25:40 You know I just saw a video the other day of ACDC playing live and him just doing the same thing. He's always dressed up in the same get up I. Thought. That was amazing. And it like I what I thought in that moment was like, is what's going through his mind. I would like to know, like is he at that point where he's going through the motions because like, you know, it's what he does, it's who he's become. Or is that truly, like, still his passion after all these years? I mean, like, I I cannot picture Angus Young from ACDC playing guitar, sitting still.

1:26:21 Like, I don't, I can't imagine him just sitting there like working on his scales, like on a bench or something. Like I can't, I can't imagine it. So it like it very well just might be one in the same. And you know, like the the stage is a stimulant like so like as soon as you get out there, you could be having it. It's weird. You kind of have to have to rely on it sometimes where it's just like I'm not feeling this right now. And then like, it's kind of like the second you get out there, you just kind of tap into something and it's like, oh shoot, here we go, This is, this is going to work. And I, this is really stupid. But Mick Jagger visited me in a dream years ago and I asked him how he kept going and he and he said it hurts more every time.

1:27:01 And I was like, Dang, what a thing to consider. Yeah. Thanks. Dream Nick. It's whatever works. It gets harder every time. Yeah, Which, you know, it's not a bad lesson in appreciation. And if you think it's hard now, you know, check back in 10 years or whatever. Man, Well, I appreciate you coming and chatting, Maddie. Dude, love this. Your projects are cool. I I'm excited to see the website launch. Thanks man, should be pretty slick. Yeah, what? So I guess I won't dig too deep because I don't know how much you want to keep secret.

1:27:45 Oh, sure. About the website. Launched away man. I'm excited to see it. Best of luck, Dad. Times five. I hope everything keeps going well. Thanks man. And it was a pleasure chatting for a little. Bit dude, thanks so much for having me.