Mariah Ann Maass - Music, Virality, and Choosin' Wisconsin - Episode #72

0:00 What's up friends, welcome back to Rooted Wisconsin. Appreciate you for clicking another episode. Grateful to have you here. Today's episode is with Mariah Moss. You may have seen her on TikTok with a fun play on an Ella Langley song. Mariah chooses Wisconsin instead of choosing Texas musician. Her career has just taken off. She also works in the healthcare system helping cancer patients and fascinating journey for a 24 year old and really excited to see where music career takes her. We have an awesome conversation about getting started with that going viral on TikTok for choosing Wisconsin, developing social media contracts, now getting sponsorships and balancing creator, musician and healthcare worker and also being a 24 year old awesome conversation. Can't wait to share it with you.

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1:35 So yeah, that's my attention just to try to have and like try to do it through an authentic lens of conversation and not, not like the canned thing that we run into sometimes. So that's what I try for. Yeah, I love that because like, I feel like we're so stereotyped in that way. Like, yeah, we love beer cheese and the Packers and the Brewers and all the things, but it's like so much more than that. It's like a community of like just genuinely mid Midwest, nice people, you know, and that's so special. You don't find that other places. For sure, and the a saying that always got me was like culture from the comes from the coasts. I don't know if you've ever heard that, but like culture from the coasts and in some ways it's true. Like especially with like tech and stuff like that, like it, it does happen, but I think there, one, there's valuable pieces of ours that could be shot that direction too. And, and two, I, I don't know, wait. Like maybe we pluck the things that are good about it, but that happens throughout the world everywhere. And we also have these things that don't get a spotlight shown on them, like fantastic artists and musicians and talented, talented people that like growing up here. It's like, Oh, my goodness, this, this MLB pitcher who played for three years, grew up

3:07 a couple of miles down the road, and that's like the star. But in reality, that story is so widespread, it's just not as commonly found. I think so. I don't know. It's a point of pride for me. I love, love it. You know, I like like I love Wisconsin. So did. Were you born in Wisconsin? Yes. OK, born and raised. Born and raised. OK by Madison or? Not in Madison, so it was here in Appleton. My folks are from Hortonville originally, and then I went to school in lacrosse and then that college degree brought me to Madison. So for radiation therapy, I worked down at the at the hospital at UW Health down there.

3:48 But yeah, so I've kind of been all over a little bit. I had to see like different parts and it's been awesome. Yeah. Speak great enough things about lacrosse, Madison back home. Each one has their own things, so. For sure, yeah. That's one of the reasons I'm so excited to chat with you today. The the contrast of the two things you're doing like you have a solid career that I can tell you're super passionate about. And then music too. Yeah, which probably, you know, the the meteoric rise that social media can thrust upon you. Yeah. Has happened to you. Yeah. And that has to add a lot of intricacies to life about, OK, what's next right now, what do I do? Exactly. Well, and that was the big question too after like graduating with my degree and like, yes, I was happy with the the job and my patience and all, and all of that, but I was like, you know what, what else could I be doing?

4:40 So I just, you know, picked up my guitar again and that really just like led me down this road. And then with TikTok recently just taken off, I was like, wow, like this is this is crazy and people are enjoying it, which is still imposter syndrome to me. I'm like, I don't know, it's just it's crazy, but people are are really liking it. And even though I do like funny skits, dumb stuff sometimes like it's leading people down the road of like, oh, you actually like write your own stuff. And this is really good. And we really like this so much. So it's cool. I get to like play both parts and do both things cause like it shows like a different side of me and then my artistic side of me too. So. But yeah, social media totally changes the game. Yeah, sure.

5:22 Especially in the artist world now. It's yeah, becoming an artist or like growing your career is so much different and so much more power is in the artist hands, which is awesome. So to hear right in there, you put it down for a little while like you didn't play for a little bit. No, it, that's why this whole thing is so funny is 'cause like I started lessons when I was like 12, something like that. And then in the high school I wasn't really into super anything musical. Like I did choir and musical for like 1 year, but I was more into like the sports, like soccer and stuff like that. And even in college, like a little bit more concerned with the party atmosphere, I guess. You know, lacrosse. Exactly. And then after that it was like, all right, what are we going to do now?

6:06 So I kind of just like picked it up again and that muscle memory like kicked back in and I was like, I took a trip down to Nashville in the fall of 2024. So a little like a year after I had graduated, a year of radiation therapy like under my belt. And it wasn't even for music really intentions. It was just for a girls trip down there and the hotel hadn't opened yet. And so, so soon as I got off the plane, it was me, my suitcase. And we walked into this place called the Listening Room. And I don't know. Have you ever been to Nashville before? You have. So it's just there's on every street. It's like live music everywhere. And this place was like a panel of songwriters, like, sharing what they had written, even if there aren't even the ones who sing the song, you know?

6:54 And I found that to be like, that happens a lot too, where it's like the person who sings the song doesn't even didn't really have a hand in writing it. I'm just learning so many things. But I remember just sitting in that room and being like, I feel the biggest calling to do this right now. This is just the coolest thing to like watch people like share their story and whatever that may be. And I was, I just felt so inspired in that moment. So after that trip, I just kind of came back and picked up the guitar again. And it's been a crazy ride ever since. So. I bet. Yeah, yeah, He there's a lot to it right there. And I'm really called to those writers rounds too, by the way. Like I listen to music lyrically that that's what starts and ends my passion with music.

7:39 Like I, I play guitar. I've been playing since I was like 14, but like I got to the point where I can play, you know, the first position chords and then I just started writing words, you know, like I just wanted to cobble by with the guitar, get to a point where I could play. Somebody could ask for a song and I can know the chords and play, but it's the words that do it for me. And those writers rounds, the one, one thing that really pulls me into them is a lot of times you'll hear the person who wrote it sing it and they sing it more how it was in their mind when they wrote it. And almost always I like it better. And there's something to it.

8:19 There's something that the universe like put some type of power or intention or something around the person who wrote those words and brought them to life. There's more conviction when they sing it and I can't get enough of it. I know it's it's really beautiful and just like so awesome to experience it first hand and like just listening to that and also like what a really great guitar sounds like. Oh my God. It just like, yeah, is the most uplifting and beautiful sound you've ever heard. And it's lyrically I'm. I also listen to that too, obviously, as a songwriter, just like how people say things and how they said it in like, maybe a different way this time because at the end of the day, like, I didn't go to school for songwriting.

9:03 But essentially, we're all kind of talking about the same things, just putting it in a different way. And that's what I love is like, things can be said so many different ways. And like, it's just so inspiring to see so many, like, young women in the country scene right now just, like, absolutely dominating. And I just love it. And I love to see it. And yeah, no, it's just Nashville's awesome. I really want to go back, hopefully sometime soon, but yeah. Yeah. So how did those two things develop? Like how I guess let me start here. When you were making music and like, it probably took a while to get proficient when you started the lessons or whatever.

9:45 But then once you realize, say, I'm like kind of good at this. Did you have any intention at that time to pursue it as a career or was it more of a kind of passion or hobby or whatever it was? And how did how did you navigate that and the more traditional quote UN quote path of like college career type thing? Right. So basically I would say like after the Nashville trip, I like came home and tried to write my first song. I was like, I think I kind of understand how it goes and wrote that and just kind of thought nobody would ever hear it. Like just thought it was kind of just for me, you know, but I always had it in the back of my head. I was like, I really want to like join a band, you know, even if it's like not singing my own songs, but like cover songs just to like sing and, you know, do all of that and like entertain.

10:34 And so it just kind of all fell into my lap. There were these guys that like had invited me to be a part of their band. So I kind of joined that and did like the cover gig scene. And that was always really fun. But the more I got better at writing, I found that like sharing my songs was just like so important When I saw like the reaction and the feedback for people, like that's just like the most rewarding thing is seeing people be like, I really related to that and I really needed that right now. So as soon as I got that kind of reaction back, I was like, I really think I need to because I still do cover gigs, but like now it's more I try to divide it up into covers and originals.

11:17 Like last night we were just playing a gig in Madison with it was Me. So I did like a whole original set. And then this other band, Marengo, they're more of like an indie sound. So we both did 2 very different, different sounds, all original music. And like, granted, not everybody knows the words. People are still having a great time and they want to hear something new. So it just, it took a while that bravery, 'cause it's so scary to be like, this is the song I wrote. I hope you like it. Yeah, it it took a long time for me to be like, OK, this is I want to go more the original path. But all those cover gates really helped me like know how to work a crowd, know how the sound check goes, like know how to recover when the plane is flying and we got some turbulence, but we're going to land it anyways.

12:07 So it's like it's taught me so many things. And so I'm grateful for it. But my heart's definitely like in the original music. And so once I kind of realized that, I was like, okay, like let's start getting recording things and finding people to do that. And it's just been so rewarding ever since. So yeah, it was a hobby. And then I was like, I think this could be actually really something just based on like the reaction from people. So it's always so like just rewarding when people are like, I really like that and I really needed that today. So, yeah, yeah. That the the the the the difference between like cover shows and original shows. I never, I never put in enough work to become a proficient writer.

12:51 Like, I think I was always kind of intimidated, if I'm being real intimidated by great songwriters who are able to move me with just about every song they write. Like I listen to somebody like Izbo and I'm like, how does this human exist? Or somebody like Childers or whatever. Like how does that thing happen? And I was all, and then, you know, I jumped into the career side of things and then picked up my guitar less and less as things went on. But I remember, like in playing cover gigs, I was never really, it was about the money at the end for me. Like it was about making the making the cash. But in playing the gig, like I was always kind of headstrong. Like I'm going to play the music I like and listen to and what I think, what I enjoy.

13:42 And that's not like, you know, I wouldn't tailor to the crowd. I, you know, I would play like, you know, I'd get up and bang the guitar with things like Childers for two hours and not, and if it wasn't the venue, I wouldn't I, you know, I had this weird power struggle between like, why was I even doing it? And then secondarily, was I getting any satisfaction on? And ultimately I didn't do that for very long. I played, you know, X amount of shows over a couple years and then I was just like, I just wasn't getting the satisfaction out of it. But I have to think the next, what I would consider the next step or like an adjacent step when you when you get up and try to pull that veil down of these are my words, this is my creation.

14:26 It has to feel so much different when you let it out right? It does. It feels very different and it's just so vulnerable. So vulnerable. Like last night for the first time, I played this song that I've kind of sneak peeked on like TikTok a little bit. It's called Saddling up ANYWAYS. And I plan to release it probably soon. But I knew it was like really important to finish it because I started back in November and the words weren't coming back then. And I was like, I'm just going to take a little break from this and come back when I'm ready. And it's a, it's a song inspired by like mental health. I'd lost a friend to suicide back in 2018.

15:10 Her name is Kennedy. And I knew it was really important to just not let her memory die and, like, let everybody know, like, how great of a person this was. And but it's such an emotional song. And for playing it for the first time and playing any song for the first time is just so vulnerable and so scary. But like, it's when you get that feedback of like, wow, like that I needed that. It's just so rewarding. And like, I just, there's nothing better than that. But yes, it is. It's very different than playing just like a cover gig of Fishing in the Dark. Here we go. Like this is my really sad song. Who's ready? Get your tissues out.

15:51 So yeah, you got to read the room to on like because at cover gigs too, I even try to, I try to throw in some originals here and there. If like I've got people, they're listening. I'm like, I like to be like, hey guys, I write songs too. This is one of them. But you just really got to read the room. And if they want fishing in the dark, hell, they'll get fishing in the dark and that's fine and we'll go on with it. But I always try to throw my originals in there too. Yeah, probably an interesting angle of it too is the side of, I think the casual listener just feels like the songwriter just writes everything about themselves, right? And so that's not always the case. Like you write about a lot of different things. So many things. Yeah.

16:32 And there's this problem for me anyway, the the few originals that I did write and share and play for people, there was this thing of like, it's not, you know, just because I wrote these words, it's not directly about me, but they probably think it is. And that's an uncomfortableness that I think is probably a really common mental hurdle. I I would think, no, I don't know. Absolutely, absolutely. I feel like sometimes too, and I, I've said this on Tic Tac perform like I feel like I didn't write this about myself, but I don't know where it's coming from, so I have to get it out. So it's like it's kind of just navigating like, you know, I think this is a good hook, but I don't really necessarily think this is about me, but that's OK. You know, that's the beauty of of songwriting is being able to, like, write the song and like, that's what they do Nashville all the time.

17:22 Like other people cut other people's songs all the time. So it's, yeah, it's awesome. Yeah, so let's talk about TikTok. So I mean social social media was huge for you. I like the ME and a lot of other people like scrolling through. You definitely like with the choosing Wisconsin thing. Obviously you had like this firecracker and like what was your experience with it? I'm guessing the front part about it is the same with a bunch of viral videos. Like you just throw it together, post it, don't think it's going to do anything, and then you wake up the next day and it's going ham. It I, I literally remember like recording that video in my car and then because it was just an idea that came out of nowhere and I was like, why do I have a feeling that this might like be funny and like do something? And then sure enough, within the first like few hours we were like.

18:15 Oh, so you kind of had an inkling about? It I did because like I had gone viral a few times on my other page, like back in college over stupid stuff, but you know, and so I knew the the feeling of like getting a mentioned or like going viral a few times. So like when I recorded it because I have like my personal page and then like my music page, I just was like, I just feel like this is people are going to like this. And sure enough, like people really liked it and then people were putting their own spin on it and I was like, Oh my God, I think I just started to trend and like people really liked it and like people from other states were doing their own versions and I was like, Oh my God, what have I just started So but it was awesome.

18:57 It was awesome. The that was great. Like people liked it and yeah. OK, So what? Like it sounds your social media history was further back then. What? What where? Where does that start? Like what? What? What was the other content or like what? Did you ever do it with intention or was it just like? Storytelling that was literally just a like my personal TikTok that I had in college that I would just like, you know, follow some trends and some things would go viral. But like then once I started to take music seriously, I was like, OK, I'm going to make a different TikTok. People know this is about music. And then my other page can be for literally whatever I want. So like it's I've kind of combined like the 2 and especially with my music page 2, I want people to be able to see like the different sides of me, the side songwriting and like just my personality and all of that.

19:48 But yeah, so just I've got 22 separate ones just to one for just like a little bit more for fun stuff and then one for music just in case like more post more music stuff on there. But. Gotcha. I I find TikTok fascinating. So part of my like, quote UN quote normal job is teaching social media marketing. And I love how like anybody can go viral on TikTok at any time. And it's kind of pushed the other platforms in that direction of like, it's all about the content and it doesn't matter if you have 10 followers or 10 million followers, it's going to be how long did someone watch and did they engage? With it. And something like yours, like it checked all the boxes, right? Like, like you, it had a very catchy first few seconds. Like it was very creatively done. Obviously your voice is beautiful. Like there's all these things that came together. And it's like, yeah, when you get done with that video, it's like, OK, this is going to be a banger. And it's weird because like, not that long ago, you know? Do you think 8 years ago on Instagram, like you put that video together and it goes on IG and you're like 75 people are going to see this.

20:58 Yeah, just going to be the way it is. And I love that it's changed the game because like, although there are people especially like the old heads in the music industry that kind of like put a lot of value in. There is a lot of value. Don't let me take away from it, But the value of like that war of attrition on the road and like building your brand, traveling in a van and sleeping in the ditch and all this stuff, right? There's a lot of people that put a lot of emphasis on that. And social media has completely changed that. So changed. I mean, look at what happened to like somebody like Zach Bryan. You know, that's unbelievable. That trajectory of life never would have happened 15 years ago. But I think it's a positive in a lot of ways. It gives somebody an outlet to do what you did and say, OK, I'm kind of interested in this again, let me see what I can make happen.

21:51 And that now you started this snowball that you can decide to keep pushing if you want. Right, right. And that's where I've just tried to like both, like do the Midwest funny thing, but also be like, hey guys, I make music too. So I've tried to go both routes. So I don't put myself like in this box because don't get me wrong, I enjoy it too. I think it's funny. And I just want to make sure people know like, hey, there's two sides of this too, you know? But like you said with the social media and musician thing, Elizabeth Nichols was also, I don't know if you know her, but she was also kind of a story, I would say like Zach Bryan where she was posting her songs like me. And then all of a sudden it just took one and then people really loved it.

22:33 And I feel like she got this following and got signed and all these things like just move so fast for her because of this one. And it's a great song, super catchy, super cute, but it's just it's totally changed the trajectory. Like you said, like, you don't have to like drive all over and like to, you know, to play all over when you can just like film a video And suddenly if the TikTok algorithm blesses you, it goes everywhere, you know? And if people really like it, they'll engage and be like, yes, we want more of this, you know? So yeah, it really just, it changed the game completely because I always thought like, oh, I'm going to have to move to Nashville. I'm going to have to do these things. And like, as much as I would love to go and like, live there and hopefully that's like in the cards someday when something's pulling me there. I feel like Wisconsin needs something like this right now, like a just a musician from Wisconsin that's like super recognizable.

23:31 And so I was like, I think I'm going to stay. I think I really want to stay one because I love my family and friends and I literally can't fathom being that far away from them. But two, just because like the connections I've made with TikTok, two, I've got like people in Milwaukee, Maddie Joe and Bootjack Rd. who I've been talking to were two, very Maddie Joe is like she's another country artist in Wisconsin who she doesn't have any original music yet, but she does like cover stuff too. So we've been chatting. She's super nice. Bootjack Rd. is a cover band that I like hopped up with at Whiskey Jacks and Red Rock in Madison and they found me through TikTok. So it's just like, there are so many talented musicians in Wisconsin, and I was just like, I got to stay. So I'm excited to stay.

24:20 Yeah, the arts culture runs so deep here, and I think there's probably a strategic advantage to it, actually, because it's not so saturated. Right, that too. If you take advantage of the things in front of you that you can do, like it's not so saturated where it's going to get lost in the abyss. It's amazing scrolling through TikTok and seeing the people on. I get the TikTok live musicians a lot just sitting there playing their songs. And it's crazy to me that you can scroll through and you just see like, wow talent, wow talent, wow talent. And then like you think about that concept and that's online, digital, but like pretty much pick that up and put it into a city. And that's what you're facing in Nashville. Like you go there and everybody can do everything. Like you asked if I'd ever been there the first time I went to Nashville, I like I came across this super interesting band playing on the street like not at not in a place just like corner street corner busking.

25:21 And I'm like, Dang, y'all are pretty good. And that was my first experience. It was literally the day I got there. I was walking down my first Rd. saw this and I'm like, OK, this is pretty tight. And I ended up having a cool trip where I got to know the culture of the city and everything. And then it was, I can't remember the time frame two years later, three years later or something like that. I'm just scrolling through YouTube and I find, I find this video by the Lost Dog St. band with this dude named Benjamin Todd. And I'm like, that's the folks that were sitting there playing on the sidewalk when I was there three years ago. And now they have like a, you know, music out. And they probably did at that time too.

26:02 Like, I don't know where their career was in that pace, in that path, but like, they were playing on the street corner when I got out the car. There's music everywhere down there and like you said, everybody can do everything. And it just that that was something that really fascinated me, too, is just like, I don't you might not even know who you're playing with that day. And like that at the beginning of my career with this whole thing would have terrified me. Like, what do you mean we didn't practice? What do you mean we didn't go over what we're going to do? Like, people just show up and walk on and here we go. The show must go on. Fishing in the dark. Here we go. So it's just it's everywhere.

26:42 Yeah. Like you said, they can just, like, you see them once and then they pop up and you're like, oh, they're kind of like making it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. He ended up being a huge star. The I think the band I broke up. I think it was like a relationship thing. I'm not really sure. But regardless, like playing on the street. Three years later I see him on YouTube. It's funny that along the lines of that story, I have a friend here in Green Bay who's a musician too, and his band was playing a show at my own music down by Appleton and I was going to catch a show. I was there to see an actually another band that had been on the podcast called Art Fishing Club and I knew Maddie's band was playing too. So I went, I went stop through there earlier and like their show's starting in 5 minutes. I'm walking up to the venue and he comes peeling in in his car and he's like he's got his guitar and he hops out of the car is like, dude, it's the five minutes before your show. It's like things happen.

27:31 It just ran pretty much directly got on stage and just started ripping. It's funny. But I mean, that probably comes with comfort, right? It's like anything else. I'm more of the very type A type. We will be there like an hour, hour and a half, two hours before. Make sure everything works, make sure everything is fine. Like I, like, I know a lot of people can just get up and go. I'm like, no, we are gonna take our time. And like I like to have a drink before and like I'm just so type A when it comes to that because I just want the show to go as well as it possibly can. Yeah, but yeah. Yeah, and luckily he had the rest of his band members there who I'm sure did the whole sound check and everything. It's true. And they're. Just like all right, come. On Yeah, Come on, get.

28:12 Up here. So then so the TikTok goes viral and then you probably start have to navigating this other weird journey too of like it seems like you have a deal with QuikTrip now and and like. Ambassador. Now, yeah, going through like contractual things and stuff, yeah, that had to be a wave of like learning, right? Oh yes, yes, and. Probably still is. Oh my God, this is my first contract. Hopefully first of like, many. But yeah, I'm, I'm excited to work with them. And it's just so Mariah coded. It's not even like I got this at QuikTrip on the way here today. So it's just I'm there all the time. They're like a great gas station.

28:55 Not even to just like hype them up, but seriously, like the cleanest gas station ever. And just all of their food, all of their things are all so good. And like, I just, I love that it's clean. I think that's the biggest thing is like the cleanliness of like how they keep it because like, sometimes you walk into a gas station and be like, what happened in here? Literally what happened in here. But yeah, I'm proud to be a brand ambassador now. Nice. We're excited to work with them. Well, that's, you know, these things they start get thrown at you right with with virality because like opportunities doors open that hadn't been opened previously and you have to try to navigate that. Now. How is that like complemented or contrasted with your career, your regular job like it has like, where are you in that process of like? Because I've seen a couple videos of you talking about your regular job too and it seems like you'd love that too and doing what you do.

29:52 So radiation therapy and just for anybody who doesn't know, I treat cancer patients with high-powered X-rays. And so usually in the healthcare world, that would be like a full time or a point 8.6. I'm hired on as like a PRN, so like as needed. So I've been super, super lucky at the place that I work at to be able to work with them on a schedule to be able to do both. And like you don't always get that. And so I'm just like, so blessed to be able to do both and to talk to my patients and be like, hey, I got a gig this weekend. Like we'll talk about that. And they they eat that they love it and just being a hand in their journey too. It's always it, like you said, kind of contrast because like I've walked in on a Monday having like the best weekend, just released a new song.

30:43 And then I'm always humbled, right, that our days are numbered. So it keeps me grounded for sure. And it's bittersweet. Yeah, has to come with a lot of heaviness. It does. It's like I said, just very bittersweet because I get to watch people like finish and that's awesome. But for some people that journey like isn't over yet. But just to know that like, you know, they may not remember my name, but like how I made them feel. I actually had a patient comment on one of my Tik Toks and be like, you treated me two years ago, but I remember you and I remember you behind the mask and like this, he was like, I had some really bad days, but you were always smiling. I could tell like by your eyes, even with the mask and like, I just want to say thank you.

31:30 And I just was like, Oh, the Lord works in mysterious ways of like just having us cross paths again and just seeing that I was like, I'm doing the right thing. You know, I just, I'm so blessed to be able to, to do both. Yeah, that's so. How did you decide on that? How did you decide on that path? Really it was. I knew I wanted to work in cancer care, but I knew I was like nursing blood. That's not going to be a thing from where I'm going to tip over. Have to draw. Anybodies blood and so I knew I wanted to work in cancer care and so. Did you have like personal experience with it or something that? No, like I had family members who unfortunately like had had cancer before, but like they none of them ever had gone through like radiation. It was just kind of something that like I stumbled into upon looking into, you know, cancer jobs and stuff. And then lacrosse came up and so I saw like a program there and I was like, I kind of observed, you know, what the job was and things like that.

32:32 And luckily went through my Gen. eds, applied and luckily got in and everything. But there isn't really like a story of like, I knew I had to do this. It was more of like, I just, I wanted to work in cancer care and happened to stumble upon that. And thankfully I loved it. So that was good with that, yeah. That's a path for a lot. My weaving path was similar. I I was told that I was good at math and science, so I should be an engineer and I sat in the first couple classes and I was like, this is terrible. Where did? You go to school. That was at UWM actually. I almost went to lacrosse, but UW, UW, MI love it. UWM gave me an academic scholarship that I ended up pissing out the window anyway, so it didn't really matter. But I guess my my free year of exploring the social aspect of college came to me significantly cheaper than it comes to a lot of other folks in realizing that I didn't want to be an engineer and.

33:27 But I, I guess to tie that back in, like through that realization was one of the first times I ever like reflected on my life. And I think that happens to a lot of people where it's like you dive into this thing that you feel like you're going to like, but you don't really know. And then at that point I was just like, OK, marketing seems like a better fit. Let me try this. And I actually did it from a place of reflection as opposed to a place of like, what would you call it? Not so much ego, but like people just like telling you you're good at something. So that would mean something else. And it like, sure, just because I got good grades in math and science never meant that I like doing it when when I actually reflected on myself, I look back and I was like, no wonder I didn't like this.

34:13 Like I don't there are aspects of science that I love. Those aren't the ones that connect to mechanical engineering. And it was like fruitless because there's no way I was ever, even if I would have persisted and got that degree and become, I would have had like 40 years of misery in front of me. And I can't stare down that pipe. I'm not one that can like do that. So I finally did some reflection, tried out marketing and then it ended up being a place that fit me. You know, there's so much value in that. And not just career wise, but life wise. Like thinking about like, you know, you reflect picking up the guitar again and being like, you know, OK, I just had this experience that moved me. Maybe I can move others.

34:55 That's super important to constantly reflect. Is that something you'd say has always come natural for you? Did it? Did you get lucky in this instance? What's your typical like way around navigating what you enjoy and what you want to chase? I would say like picking up the guitar again was just, I just really love like writing songs and I didn't realize it until it just kind of like happened, you know? And like I try not to overdo it, you know, just like to the point where like this is a job, you know, like I still want to like be able to like write a song and not feel like pressured to do it 'cause I feel like if I feel pressured to write a song, this is going to be an awful song, you know, So I try to navigate that in the best way that I can. I'm just like, you know, never pressuring myself to be like, you have to write a song today.

35:50 That's what you're going to do or you have to post this TikTok. Don't like there's time. There's so much time. And I want to go back to what you were saying about the career thing. I think it's so crazy to think that anyone knows what they want to do at the age of 18. That's so young. My parents still tell me. I still don't know what I want to be when I grow up, Mariah. You know, it's like, yeah, I get that. How are how are you supposed to know? And then people are like, oh, well, this makes really good money. This is going to like get you da, da, da, da. And it's like, what is it about the money, though? It never is. Like, sure, it's nice to have and like, you got to keep the lights on, right? But it's about if you're happy and like, do you enjoy this or do you hate going to the office from 9:00 to 5:00 every day? You know, it's but how is anybody supposed to know? But that's the beauty of like life and being able to make decisions.

36:47 Like when, because I was full time at first with radiation therapy and then the part time stumbled about and I was like, I feel like I should take this part time. And from doing that, I just feel like there's been such a greater life balance working like a little less and then being able to do half and half versus working 40 hours a week and then driving to all these gigs and like kind of exhausting myself a little bit and then driving all the way back to Madison because most of my gigs back then we're back home. So it's like being able to have that life balance and like truly love, love, love what you're doing, you know, but it's, it's a journey to find it. Sure. And like you said, finding it in that self reflection, I feel like is also really important for sure.

37:28 Well, yeah. How's anybody supposed to know at 18? You're so young you don't even know yourself yet, you know so. Right. And we ask them to do it without ever experiencing it. Yes, which is just the wildest thing when you really think about it. Yep. Like, sure, you might have taken some classes in different areas, but we ask him to do it without like ever following somebody who does it around for a day, right? And just seeing what they actually do, it's crazy. I was a career advisor for three years and I had so many of these conversations about like, OK, here's what this goofy assessment says that you enjoy. Now you tell me what you enjoy. And I would ask the most off the wall questions. One of my favorite ones would be if you could have dinner with anybody, alive or dead, pick three people and tell me, and I could tell someone more about what areas they would find satisfaction and working from that question. Then I could about like, tell me. What was your favorite course subject in the school? Like these exploratory questions can get there, but people need help coming to that realization because it's not natural to think that way.

38:35 It's fascinating. There was something else in there that you just said that I was going to jump onto too, but it for like a little bird flew right out of my brain. That's. Usually what happens to me, I know I'm like, there's so many things that are going through your brain at once, it's hard to like. Yeah, but you're exactly right. I think it's absolutely crazy that we ask people to choose what they want to do, you know, and in in a lot of cases invests several 10s of thousands of dollars to do it. Exactly. I actually had a previous guest on the podcast. She was she was in the healthcare field too. I think she was a nurse practitioner if I remember right And left to now, she wrote an opera like a rock Popra.

39:19 She actually calls it, it's called and it's called Blood Love. And she recently like moved out to New York and is doing this thing. And similarly, like she went through kind of like she, I think COVID burned her out of the healthcare field, which a lot of people did. Like that was some crazy stuff. And she had always had this passion of singing and, and, you know, kind of like the Broadway type thing and decided to chase it, you know, after a successful career in a in a space. And I don't know, there's a there's got to be a better way that we can like build a path for folks. Like you hear about other countries that do this. Obviously easier on a far smaller scale than 300 million or however many people live in the US.

40:05 It's a lot. But it's a lot, yeah. But like of, I guess what I would relate it to is kind of like the Montessori schools concept, but then on steroids, where you get to actually experience the things that you try before you do it. Because like, hypothetically, flip, flip this coin a little bit. Get to someone who has always wanted to be a musician. That's like their goal. They want to do it and then the first day they step on stage and didn't do a show, they're like, oh God, that was nerve wracking. I don't want this feeling my whole life. Now what like little chunks of experience can help us make valid and like best for us decisions? And how do we, how do we help people navigate that path better?

40:51 Because we don't right now, I don't think. No, I know, and I feel like traveling too and just like seeing how other parts of the world are and like their cultures and just like immersing yourself in that. I feel like it's really important to to be like a well-rounded, just seeing how other people work, you know. So I always am like so jealous of the people who like take like a year or something off to like go travel and stuff Like that's awesome. Yeah, I do that. But because I've never been, I don't know if have you been to Europe or anywhere. I don't even have a passport. I've never been out of the country. I've done a lot of domestic travel, but yeah, I've never traveled out of the country. I'm excited too. That'll definitely come, especially now I have a four year old. So I want to, as he develops and grows like I completely agree with you and I want to make sure that I expose him to as many different things as I can.

41:42 So it's going to come. But no, never traveled out of the country. Yeah, I've only been to it was Jamaica and Costa Rica, both beautiful, beautiful countries. But I've always wanted to go to Europe, you know, see things over there. And I've had a few friends who have, like studied abroad and done all of that and like, they have nothing but great things to say. And so it's definitely on my list of things to do. So hopefully tour takes me there someday. Yeah, we'll see. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. What? What is that stuff? Like what are those other areas of life that keep you ticking other than working music? Like what are those areas of exposure that you lean into when you need some decompressed time or you want to recharge your batteries? Like what's that stuff?

42:24 Honestly, I'm still learning how to do that. I feel like the best way for me to decompress is just like be like turn off the phone because it's really easy to be like, how many notifications are we getting today? It's like, you know, like what's the feedback today? Hopefully it's all good, You know, finding validation in that I need like, I like just leave my phone and just really try to be as like present as I can with friends or family or doing some sort of activity, whether it's like bowling or one time we literally went laser tagging and like that was just so fun because it was like away from the phone. And just like with people that like I really care about and they really care about me, but I'm, it's, I have a really hard time shutting off that part of my brain and just being like, you're not doing enough And it's just, it's a learning process.

43:15 I try not to be hard on myself, but it's really hard to not look at other people and be like, well, look how far they are. Like, how can I you got to keep posting and doing and here we go, you know, like you want to keep that traction, right? So like keep posting, but like that can be exhausting too. And then that's not fun. You know, like I said, it kind of makes it more of a job. And then it's like I was doing this for fun and just sharing my songs and now I have to, for these people, you know who people who love me, I love them too. But it's like I got to put myself 1st and try to turn it off. So I'm still still learning, but it's just being with friends and family and and the dogs and the cat.

43:56 Just some good animal therapy is always good so. Nice. Yeah, Yeah. It's funny, we just had a conversation about this with the previous guest about like Envy being a thief of joy and really not only being a thief of joy, which is a pretty like that actually didn't come up in that conversation. That's just something I think of frequently of envy being a thief of joy and like taking away from the process. But secondarily, a lot of times when you act on that, when you act on that feeling, it doesn't work. Like you can't for the most part force things in life. Like you can get it to a certain place, but then it's like, OK, you're you're the hill is way taller than you're going to be able to push this big old rock and you literally can't force it to happen. So you have to drop the rock and just walk around the hill and see what's around the next corner. And I don't know, I've, I've really driven person. I've struggled with that in my life too. Like you have these aspirations and goals that are at the end of this tunnel.

45:02 And for me, it's, it's never really been about like the, the envy side of it. Like it was weird. I worked in radio for a long time and a lot of the people that I met like really got this big like ego boost of having like a microphone. And they that's where they got their energy from of it. And mine was always about like telling stories and like connecting people. Like I still to this day, like I'm being behind a mic is kind of uncomfortable. Like I'm a really effective public speaker, but it's it's very uncomfortable. But what gives me satisfaction out of it is the actual like process of what it's doing in the story told.

45:47 Like with the podcast, like I'm, I'm just trying to share people's stories in a positive and effective way. And that makes it not uncomfortable for me because then it matters. But if I were to force it, like I tell this to people all the time, like I teach social media marketing, I could make viral clips that are like metric driven. But then is it going to, is it going to achieve the mission that I wanted to? And is somebody going to actually tune into an hour and a half and listen to me talk with Mariah about life and things that matter like this? And we can't force it. No matter how hard you try, it doesn't matter if it comes from envy, if it comes from wanting or needing money, like you said earlier, we need to pay our bills.

46:28 But life is very unforgiving in that realm. We can't force something to happen. So it's, I don't know, it's this weird balance of like going my little, my little guy's pre-K. They always talk about going with the flow. You got to go with the flow. I always call it riding the wave, but at the same time doing it with a motivated intention of like, OK, I'm going to wake up today and give it my best. I don't know what that means yet. Like maybe it's an e-mail that really matters. Maybe it's a guest that I want to do a little research on. But like, it's a tough balance to navigate those two things because you see these like, you know where you want to get to and you wish it were tomorrow.

47:14 But at the same time, it's like, OK, there's a path that I probably have to walk that's not even written by me. Right. That has to come alive. Exactly, and there's just like obstacles and things that you have to go through and I feel like going through like hard times it, you know, it shows like are you what are what are your true intentions about your end goal? Are you doing it for the money? Are you doing it for the fame? Are you doing it just to see your name up in big lights? But just, you know, not actually connecting with people. You just want the fame. It's like you got to know what your intentions are with the whole what it with whatever you're doing, you know, is it to make an impact on people or is it simply just to like make 6 figures and like do all the fancy things and have all the fancy things and like story, story, story and history over again.

48:03 Money never makes anybody like super happy. Sure, it helps, but like I just feel like you hear time and time again about these celebrities and people who you would think like, gosh, they're on top of the world. Then they come out and like even Ella Langley, who I love by the way, she took a break, I want to say last year and she I can't remember how long it was, but she seriously was having like the year of a lifetime, like just two amazing chart topping songs. And then she takes a step back from the, I think she was on tour with Morgan Wallen while also still doing her, still hungover headlining to her.

48:43 And it's like she needed the time and the space, you know? And like, it can, it can seem like everybody's like doing really great, but they're not, you know, like it can seem all fun once you have the fame and the money. But like sometimes like, that's just like not the reality of it. So taking a step back to like look at the true intentions of like am I doing this to create a connection or am I doing it for the wrong reasons, you know, but. And you see that in especially in that career path in particular, you see it affect people's art too and the output. So I think a great example that actually one quick story won't OK, two different paths around 1:00 just because I was reading a story about this this morning. But I think what often comes to mind in this space is reality TV and there's a prime example.

49:36 I can't even remember name. I don't want really watch reality TV unless it's like alone where it's like real real. But I saw this video supposedly, I think it was like a Bachelorette or something. The show got cancelled. She was on the other Mormon one or something. This. Is like super recent. I saw it this morning. They just pulled it. Yeah, yeah. But did you see the video of that Lady about why they're pulling it like behind the scenes? I'm sure like she's painting this picture of herself on these shows. I've never watched them, but this video she's like beating the hell out of this man who was her significant other. And then like the most gut wrenching thing in this video, like towards the end of it, she starts throwing chairs at this dude. And then you hear a little baby crying in the room and I'm like, Oh my God, you're just such a shit human. Like just chasing dollars in the reality TV realm as opposed to like trying to bring value to the world. You know what I mean?

50:35 So that was a little, that was a little soapbox for me for a second, just cuz I, I, I couldn't stop thinking about it when I was hearing you talk about doing it for a reason compared to the dollars and cents. And I think reality TV encompasses that well. But back to my main point of the music thing. There was a time like when I was a pretty big like in early in his career. I liked Luke Bryan's music. I like, I like, enjoyed it, you know, And then it got towards the end and it was like, Oh my goodness, like he's got this whole and I get it, you know, like nothing to take away from the guy because make your paper Boo Boo, you know, like there's money to be had. Go out and make that money. But like, there were some songs at the beginning that like hit different than like country girl, Shake it for me, you know, like there's songs that are are different.

51:22 And then I always find myself drawn back to the Childers and the isbals and the people that constantly pour their heart out. Like in the middle of COVID, Tyler made a whole album just to voice his opinion on a social issue. And I was like, and that was at the point where it was an inflection point in his career. He was either going to be the next huge thing or who knew what was going to happen. And he wrote like a 10 track instrumental one that had words and it was about a social issue. And I remember thinking at that moment like, OK, like this dude is doesn't care. You know, it is a true art form for them.

52:05 It is. And I don't know, I'm sure that's such a tough decision to make because like, I can't even fathom putting my like, say I had a big sponsor come to the podcast, but one of the main themes, so my sponsor now is a non alcoholic beverage. One of my main themes is I, I really believe in the benefits of limiting alcohol in people's lives. And, and I can't throw rocks from my glass house because I lived it growing up like a part of like crazy. Grew up in Wisconsin. Like did all the things. But say a sponsor came to me and it was an alcoholic beverage and they're like, I'm going to give you $5,000,000 to sponsor this podcast like.

52:49 Morally would you do? It I can't imagine having to make that decision. Life changing money versus selling out, for lack of a better term. And just like, get in the bag, you know, I can't imagine trying to make it so I can't disparage anybody for doing it, you know what I mean? It's a it's a really hard decision, but I feel like, I don't know, I feel like I'm such a lead with your heart. If it's a bad gut feeling, run with it, you know, but it's it's a hard decision for sure. But back to what you were saying about like the NA, I love that you're sponsored by NA by the way, I'm not NAI still do have my beverages here and there, maybe some glasses of wine maybe during the week. But I find that especially like in the music scene, it's like I feel like I have like one or two like during the show and then I'm good and like I don't crave as much like going out and like getting hammered and then feeling awful the next day. And like maybe that's rare or crazy for a 24 year old, but I just, I don't know, the Sunday scary's are so scary. I feel like I if you know what I mean, it's just like when you feel terrible, you can't do anything. And like, I just love that like music has kind of pushed me away from that a little bit.

54:08 And I know that can go the opposite way for some people too. Like sometimes they go like too far into it. But I feel like for me it's been a good step back from like super party all the time because alcohol can, you know, you make some bad decisions and it's not always a great, great thing. But I just want to say that I love that you're sponsored by any SO. Yeah, I love I and you said maybe not, maybe not the norm for a 24 year old. I love that the generational shift that's happening because I see a bunch of people your age becoming a bit more cognizant about the negative side of alcohol because there there is positive sides too. If I would have been like if I would have quit drinking before I went to college, which is weird to say, right?

54:50 Like if you go to college at 18, we are in Wisconsin. If I would have quit drinking before then I wouldn't have some of my best friends in the world because I met them with that as a vehicle. And I'm like, I'm very careful in my life to never be the pass the judgement, you know, if I'm not in that place. But I love seeing your generation be more cognizant and aware and more in control of the decisions they make because that that was not my experience as a 24 year old or an 18 year old. It was like, this is what everybody does. And especially in like, I grew up in small town Wisconsin. So that's all there is to do, yes, you know. It's everywhere, like your buddies on a Monday saying like, hey, you wanna come over for beer or whatever. And it's like, did I need that?

55:43 Did I need that on a Monday? And, you know, but it's like, I like, don't get me wrong, every blue moon I'm like, let's go out and let's, you know, don't get me wrong, I still have that. But I do feel like in college it was just like, it was a lot and like got out of my system. And now it's just like, wow, I don't even know how that, you know, I could never like October. Have you ever been to Oktoberfest? Not. On the cross, No. Oh my God, crazy. Literally just like drinking all day long from sun up to sundown. And like I just couldn't imagine doing that now. But I feel like in college, like it's what it is what you do, you know, you're having fun, like you said, you meet you meet people. And I still have people from college too that I partied with that are that are going to be lifetime friends, you know, so I'm, I'm thankful and like I don't judge anyone or judge myself for like drinking that much in college, just what you do.

56:36 But it's just like now I'm just more like, I'm thankful that I'm not, you know, just like always, like out. And because it just makes me feel unwell personally. And I don't judge anybody for going on the weekends. Like, hell yeah, have your fun. Love that for you. I hope I'm on. Come to. The show when you do. Exactly. I hope I'm up on the stage when you're out drinking your drinks and shaking your ass out there. I hope you are and I hope I'm there, but it's just for me, those Sunday scary's are just like never, ever worth it. So it's just very anxiety for volcanes, like where are, say, what did I do? And it's like, I don't want that. I don't want to not remember that. So, yeah, yeah. Yeah, the anxiety that comes post to it was never comfortable, never.

57:20 No, especially, you know like in that scenario I was a person who I would I would drink a copious amount and then I would be able to still function. So I would have hours of just not remembering life. Yeah. And there's no way not to get anxiety about that. Like, there's so many hours of my life that I have no idea what I did. And that's a really uncomfortable feeling. It is. It's like, why don't? That's not cool. You know that I don't remember. That Who the hell was driving the bus like it wasn't me? You're right, like lights on but literally nobody's home. Seriously. So scary. So scary. And like in your field, some of the saddest, like melancholy things you'll see are like the musicians who like went too far and then they have to try to perform.

58:06 And you know, what's somebody that's so talented, right? But it's like you can see that they're in a bad spot and it's almost masking. So it's almost always masking something else. Something else exactly. Trauma, you know, burdens, whatever, all the bad things that come with life. And that's where it's the problem, you know, like on the positive side, everything's great, dude drinks and friends like this is awesome. And then the switch flips. You know, it's, it's fascinating to talk about, but it's really fascinating in the music industry because there's a, there's a certain connection between the lifestyle and almost like the trajectories of a lot of musicians where it's like, OK, I went through this tumultuous bad period where I was doing all of these things and then so many of them have become sober and then continued on in a parallel but different way.

59:14 It's hard to explain. I don't even know really what I'm getting at, but it's, it's definitely, you know, you get what I'm saying though, Like it's in your industry. It's a thing. It is, and I feel like I don't know if you saw this, but Ashley McBride, actually. I love Ashley McBride. She just took a huge step, I feel like in because obviously Nashville, drinking bars, music. She opened an NA bar down there which I'm like blank, no. Way did she really? She did, she did, and I'm blanking on the name right now. I want to say it's like, I want to say it's redemption and all the drinks are NA and I'm pretty sure she's sober. And I was just like, you go girl, you go and like that that that's huge.

59:55 Like, it's just a all and a bar in Nashville that if you still want to see music, you can go and you don't have to be tempted by anything. And I just loved that. And I love her stories, her songs, rock. She's awesome. But yeah. Yeah, I had no idea about that. I appreciate you sharing that with me. That makes me want to go to Nashville again. Right, because it is hard when it's around you right and you're feeling temptation and you're like, well, everybody else is doing it like maybe I should to fit in. Or if you're not drinking, people are like, well, why aren't you, you know, like you just come on, loosen up. And it's like, I just want to say no because I don't want, I don't want 1, you know? But I feel like sometimes it's like you get a little pushed and you get a little made fun of for it.

1:00:37 But yes, I'm glad, like you said, like the generational shift, I feel like it's kind of changing. So it's getting a little easier. Yeah, that's awesome luck. I'm so fortunate that I never had the pull like when I decided to quit drinking. It was easy for me. It wasn't from a place of like, addiction or I did something terrible or something. It was more of a conscious decision for me. And I'm lucky that probably because I'm pretty stubborn and I was just like, this is what I'm going to do. And like, there were. And all my friends know that about me. So the first time in conversation, it was probably pretty startling for them. Like what? You're not going to drink Like you? I've partied really hard with you.

1:01:19 And yeah, and but past that, I was, I'm one of the lucky ones that I was. I never felt that that like pull of like, Oh my goodness, everybody's drinking. I need to have. 1. But I love it for the concept of providing an Ave. for those people to like that do make the decision or have that pull, Especially for the ones that have the pull actually to be able to go and see a show. I've been listening to Ashley since she was on tour with Eric Church Man 15 years ago. I love Ashley McBride. Is insanely, insanely talented. I love her stuff. I feel like I've been getting more into her stuff recently. But like her radio hits I like, no, but I need a deep dive into her, like albums because I feel like she's just such an incredible person with such a journey.

1:02:09 And everyone told her no, you couldn't do it and there she was doing it, you know? I love stories like that. But I love that video of her and I feel like an ass cuz I'm drawing a blank on the song right now. But nowhere. Yeah, and she played it on the Opry and she like, starts to tear up a little bit and she shakes her fist and oh God, it gives me goosebumps thinking. About it right now, I know because someone said like you're not going to be able to do it. And she's like, here I am in the Opry circle doing it actually pretty good for a girl going nowhere. And I just love that. I love that she's she's awesome. She's so cool. Yeah. What are some of your other musical inspirations? Like when when you think back to those like first few that like, I think most people that are drawn to music, like you can think of those first few like songs or artists from your youth when you were like, like you didn't know it at the time, but it piqued your interest.

1:03:03 Do you have any of those? I would say, I mean, I've always been a Swifty. I don't know if you're a Swifty over there, but I've always been a Swifty. So I would say Taylor Swift has been like a huge, especially in her like, country era. I've been really deep diving into that to get some, like, inspiration, I would say. And then as of like recent Ella Langley, Avery, Anna, Megan Maroni, I would say I write the most like Megan Maroni, but yeah. I kind of get that vibe, yeah. Yeah, and she's just, I feel like Ella is like very like tough, cool girl. I don't know if she seems to play cool, but Megan is more like we're just going to make fun of this. Or even Sabrina Carpenter.

1:03:45 She's makes fun of crappy situations, whether that be it with boys or in. Life I think herself is so catchy and creative. Funny. It's so satirical. I love that so, so much. But I would say those are like some artists that like have inspired, but I also like my dad. He definitely inspired me on like the harder, harder rock stuff like ACDC, Poison, like I love that era of music too. So it's like, I feel like there's a really good mix of a lot of different like places. So I definitely find like with certain songs, I'm like, Oh yeah, I definitely like tapped into this one more, tapped into this one more.

1:04:27 Because even last night, I always like to have a reference song of like, all right, where are we? Where is this inspiration pulling from? What are other people doing? And like last night there was a song that I played that definitely was more Chris Stapleton like. And like I said about Taylor Swift, there was one that I was like, I feel like this is very Taylor Swift coded or Megan Maroney coded. So. And there's a lot of different influences for sure. And I'm very lucky to have grown up with that, but also still enrich myself with that now too. I feel like, you know, as important it is to create, it's also important to listen and see what's out there too. And like, just enrich yourself with like, you know, what are other people doing? Oh, I like what they did. I like what they did. Maybe I can combine the 2.

1:05:09 And that's the awesome part about creating. So there's no rules. Absolutely. You can make whatever you want and draw from whatever you want. And I think, I mean, I think any songwriter in the world would benefit from listen to Taylor. She's a genius. Yeah, absolute. Genius, and I mean, even Post Malone to his his transition from pop to like country. I'm like, how are you guys doing it this? But this is awesome. I love it, you know, and she did the country to like, she kind of reversed it a little bit. I'm like, they can just cover it all and I love it. I I have a theory about post. I have AI have a theory about him. I have a theory about well, we actually, it's funny because we were just talking about it earlier. I think post got painted into a creative corner by momentum like he had he did white Iverson where it was cool hip hop song with him driving around the desert in a car and he had cornrows and stuff.

1:06:02 And I think he got painted into it and he like had to follow the dream. But I, I don't think, I don't see it as so much of like, I think it's just a creative shift for him that he was able to do because he got a platform and then he could choose to do what he actually wanted to do. Exactly. And I think like, I don't get the same vibe from like Jelly Roll, even though they did the same thing. You love Jelly Roll? I think he's made some very good music. I am part of this is probably because, like, I'm, I'm a hip hop fan too. I I like some generations of hip hop and I remember like Jelly and little white rapping about some of the wildest stuff you'll ever hear.

1:06:47 And I think his story's awesome about deciding that he needed to get clean and straighten up in prison when his daughter was born. Like I, I think that's all cool, but I, I think where I see the shift a little bit differently is I don't think like, I think it was a little bit more opportunity for him where he saw the country space and saw that it was going to be a good business decision for him to do. Whereas that wasn't a good business decision for post. I mean, he was making all kinds of money and I think he followed it because he was able to. And I don't take away from either of them for doing it. Like I said, like make your money if I'm all about business decisions too and and get after it, But I think there's a contrast there.

1:07:39 Fun to think about, I don't know. Yeah, I feel like sometimes it's like you were saying before, like you're painted in this picture, so you're gonna follow it and do what's like radio friendly, what everybody likes right now. But it's really cool when you see like a project like that's more just so much more personal. I feel like, you know, it's like, okay, this is you on the radio. But like when you dive dive deeper into the album, it's like, but this is you and I can see that in your writing. And I just love that because you're always gonna have your like super easy, digestible, like radio songs, which are great, don't get me wrong. But it's like when you dive deeper from the the picture perfect, like painted thing, it's like there's so much more to that person. Yeah.

1:08:23 But yeah, seriously so cool how like both have been able to Taylor Swift and and post like just crossover and even Jelly Roll coming from such like a hard and then two. He like goes back to the prisons and like does concerts. You go Jelly roll. That is seriously so awesome. I love his wife too, Bunny. She has a podcast too. She had Dolly Parton on there one time. But yeah, yeah, no Jelly roll. Just he comes from a really just like holy place too, with like religion, religious stuff, which I really like his take on that. But yeah, just somebody who doesn't look like they should or not should, but like be it doesn't look like they would be doing country music. And he's like, hey, we're in country music and we're doing it. And I just love it.

1:09:06 He's so bold and I love it. It's. Strange to me sometimes to think about. So I'm a huge country music fan. Yeah, it's strange to me to think about the perception that it's got to now because you're exactly right. You're spot on. But when I think of like the roots of of country and even like before I was born, because like when I think of my early inspirations, it was radio country was like Garth, you know, and it was that stuff. But to me, the roots of country are like Waylon and Willie and it was people forging their own path and swimming against the grain.

1:09:47 We're now today's industry. It's become somewhat commercialized in places that there's less, you see less of that. And I think that's why it gives us such pleasure when it happens because it's like, Oh my goodness, it's not another Justin Moore. It it is someone that is like outside of the quote UN quote Norm doing it. And I think that's one of the beautiful things about music in general. Oh, yeah. Like, just how much it can, like, evolve in country, just like from what it was to what it is now, Like it's crossed so many different paths. I feel like now it's like can be a little bit of rock, a little bit of pop, and like, it just covers so many things.

1:10:30 And like we were saying before, like how it has no rules. And it's just really cool to see people just, like, creatively where they're pulling from and putting it all together in one. Yeah. Yeah, there's a really cool video of somebody. I think it was Waylon. I hope I'm not wrong. And I think it was Waylon. And it was this old, like, talk show vibe where like the Audi, you know, like, I'm like Maury or something. They'd let the audience ask some questions. It was that thing. And this cute little old lady comes up to this microphone and she talks about how her grandson listens to hip hop and how could she fix him? Like, she used the word fix him or do I even try?

1:11:10 Yeah. And Waylon gave such an awesome response. He was like, you know, I don't think there really is any fixing to be done. Does he have a job? Like, what is he like as a human? And. And I think about the some of the, like, stereotypical thought processes around country music and the people who listen. And I think that answer may be different today and I don't know. I appreciate Wayland's more. I I appreciate his message and saying like, what's there to fix? And then he makes an awesome joke at the end she's and he's like, I don't think you have to worry about it. Does he listen to Willie?

1:11:52 Because then you have to worry. Yeah. And he and he and he kind of like tongue in cheek threw it back at her. And of course, like a person like that, she didn't catch it, you know, she didn't catch the the how really like quick that was. But he just pretty much threw it back at her and said, like, look at this dude in our genre one that here that you're a propping and you have this siloed view of it. And I just thought it was it was genius. And to me, that's what country music is. And that perception, I think, has become clouded by the commercialness of it at times. Because I hear so many people that tell me like, oh, I only listen to old country, the new stuff stinks. And I was like, no, the ones that you know of stink. Like, you can't, you can't tell me that. Like, especially so someone in that room put on a Sturgill Simpson record and tell me that dude's not making music. Yeah, like it's, I am always so sad when people say that like, oh, old country is way better.

1:13:04 Like, don't get me wrong, I love the old country too, and we wouldn't be anywhere like without it today. But it's like that is the beauty of like independent music musicians too, of like people who aren't with the labels that are like just sharing so much creativity and like their music has no boundaries. You know, it's like, OK, maybe 90s is like your preference and and that's fine, but you just had you need to dive deeper it than to what they just play on the old country radio station. There's so many talented people out there. And I just feel like people need to like expose themselves a little bit more now, something I learned as I was getting into the more the music realm is I was like, Oh my God, there's so much out there.

1:13:46 It's almost overwhelming how much like music is out there. But I love scrolling on like my for you page and then being like, oh, I like this person. I like this song. I feel like I've really, I educated myself. I'm like who are the new and up and coming like artists? Like this is really fun to tell to see. Like Carter Faith I went and saw in February and she's kind of an up and coming country artist, but it was so cool to see her at that stage before. Probably she'll make it big at some point. And like it's such a gem to see them like start small and like see them at like their smaller shows because I've never had that. I feel like I see people that are like, oh, like I deserve front row tickets because I was at this show like before, like anybody blew up, whatever, whatever.

1:14:30 I've never had that. So just seeing her and in this like, smaller, more intimate venue, I was just so happy and like, excited to see her. And I'm just so excited to see like where she goes to. But yeah, there's just so much music out there that, like, I feel like people who stick to the 90s, just like they don't even know about, like, do they even have Spotify? Probably not. It's like they probably just listen to Turn on the radio and that's what it is. And that's what it is. And radio has all the control of what what you know. And that's an issue. That's why I love podcasts. Mainstream media has come to a very clouded place of like power and money and the combination of those two things. But oh, you're exactly right. That's a huge.

1:15:10 So that's one of the few things I miss about working in radio. Like the whole reason I love doing it was my my ultimate goal. I got to program a station with whatever music I wanted to for seven years. I got to pick it and I got to say so I exposed a bunch of people to Brent Cobb, Tyler children, Sergil Simpson, like Jason Isbell, people that I dig and shined a different light on the music that's available out there. But I love the the early concert. I miss that so much because I was in music so much that I was able to find it And I had a like, I don't know why, but I always had a pretty good year. I just judge by what I liked. But I think there's people who like things that I do and I was able to like use that to to find like minded people.

1:15:57 And like I saw, I saw Tyler at Blue Ox with a couple hundred other people just with my elbows on the thing. And I was like, this dude is a monster. He's got to get him. And luckily he did. He got a massive platform that everybody knows Tyler now. But like those, there's even mainstream ones like Brantley Gilbert, I saw it like a, it was like a 1:00 stage at Summerfest where nobody's in the crowd. And I was like, this guy's going to make it like he's going to. And it's, it's that's so fun. It's such a fun part about music to see that thing happen of, OK, this is a rocket ship, but when is the fuse going to get lit?

1:16:43 You know? And really, I think that's what drew a lot of people to your TikTok is like, you see that? And it was so like authentic and endearing. And you had like, I think one of the hooks about it in the like, you have a really like unique inflection when you sing sometimes and that's super helpful. It gives you a style and that's what it stops like, you know, you see the most talented people and you're like, why did how did this person never go anywhere? Well, I'll give you a hint. Go to any studio session that ever happens in Nashville and you'll have somebody RIP the guitar like nothing you've ever seen before. But they didn't have that thing, you know, they didn't have the thing that set them apart from a crowd. Right, because you don't want to be like everybody else. You can't be.

1:17:34 And Ella, there's already a Laney. Can't be, don't do that. Like you got to be yourself because I feel like I see some people on social media like whether it's like a like something that's really similar to what another artist did, but it's like you got to find the things that like set you apart from everybody else, you know? So, so you for the for the vast majority that are only listening on the podcast, when I said it, when I talked about the inflection, you had a funny look and you knew exactly what I was talking about. Where does? Where does that? Like are you talking about just like me kind of sounding a little bit more like Southern like when I or just which party? Because I've had people like comment, be like, you sound like you're from the South, like when you sing or even like sometimes when I talk.

1:18:19 I don't know why. I've literally lived in Wisconsin all of my life. I just somehow pick up the southern a little bit. I don't. Know not that, no. OK, so I'm interested, where are you? Mine is your like when I think of the first video, the choosing Wisconsin thing, it was how what comes to my mind is how you said the word Wisconsin but not with a southern accent. It it was more it's the inflection that you gave it. There was almost like there was almost like a like an H in there. Oh yeah, I did see some people comment that too. Oh, did they? I. I stay out of the comments on social. I stay out of the comments and like I'm looking, I'm looking.

1:19:00 In that scenario, it's hard not to because you're taking a pulse of what people are thinking and and you have to do it to make a business. Decision. But for me as a viewer, I just take in what I think and then I move along my merry way. But that's what I'm talking about. It Like it's that thing where when you hear somebody sing, you know it's them. That's what I'm getting. At like Megan Maroney has like a very, I feel like deep raspy. I don't certainly just know it's her. That's. Maybe not deep and raspy, but like, you know what I'm saying? You hear Meg, and you know it's her. That's the thing I'm getting at. I don't know her music enough to like be able to tell if that's the thing I'm trying to think of a well, a good example would be Tyler. Like if you hear Tyler sing one note and you know it's Tyler like that. Like after that one video, I could be scrolling through anything and if I heard a song with you singing on it, I would know it was you.

1:19:54 And that is that's I've. Never heard that. Thank you. That's really. You're welcome. Wow, thank you so much. That is like I've never heard somebody say that and like put it that way. So thank you. I appreciate that. You're welcome to know that it's like a little different, like recognizable. Yeah, you're welcome. It comes from a super authentic place though. I'm not just trying to toot your horn. It like that is the thing that people that get very successful in their musical careers have that you see these, you know, for every 99 people that you see that can RIP the guitar or sing the daylights out of something, there's the one person that makes it and you're like, OK, what's the differentiator? That's the differentiator that I see almost all the time is it's just so it sounds so unique that it doesn't take all those impressions to be like, Oh yeah, this is this person. And it's really, it's pretty clear. Like when you look back across history, like the people who were monsters in a good way, I'm saying they had that thing like you can't listen to Prince and not know it's Prince. You can't listen to the Bruce and not know it's Springsteen. Like it's those people.

1:21:10 And I think the more that like when someone has that gift, when you can double down on it and say like, yeah, this, this is exactly it. I mean, Ella's kind of that way too. You listen to Ella Langley and it's a few notes and you know, it's Ella Langley thing. So I don't know. It's, I can't even remember how we got talking about that, but it's a if it was the seeing concerts early or something or whatever. Yeah, well, actually I did want to go back to that. I just wanted to say like those also too, like as a on the flip side, as like the artists in like looking out and not seeing that many people. Like those are the shows that also I just wanted to say to like Brandy, if there's anybody listening that's like starting their journey.

1:21:52 Like those are the the shows that like make you they make you like stronger when there's nobody out there and you're like, what the heck. You know, it's, it's sad to like, see, but like, feel like every musician goes through that. And just like, if there's nobody there, nobody's really paying attention to you. But those are the shows that make you such a better performer. And being like, able to, if there's like 50 people in the room. Emily and Roberts said something like this. She's also awesome if there's like 50 people in the room and like nobody's really like paying attention to you. It's just so important to still sing your little heart out because there's probably one or two people that are like cheering yawn and you just don't even know it.

1:22:35 Like you just got to play like it's literally your last day on earth or you're standing in the Opry circle. And I just think that's so important for artists because I feel like for me, if there's not a lot of feedback or if like if I'm more of a background show, I'm always like, wow, that wasn't my best show because nobody like I was reacting or like cheer, you know, just like nobody was looking. I'm like, oh, that wasn't good. It doesn't mean it wasn't good. It's just like I have played in venues where I just don't suit their fit. Like, and I think that's also very important to learn. I've, I've been learning this too, like where I thrive are my dive bars or just like any old hole in the wall place because like I've got a lot of friends in low places that want to just like have a good time and sing their hearts out with me. I'm not a background player.

1:23:27 And so like those like coffee shop vibes or sometimes like even the wine bar vibe where they just kind of want more background music because I've been told once before that I've been too loud. And that's where it's just like, OK, I know that I thrive in other places. So I just wanted to say like, even where like it's like a smaller audience, like those shows are just so, so important. And those are the shows that you remember. Like even when you think nobody's paying attention, there was probably one person and it could be like somebody really important that saw you pouring your heart out into that, you know, so. So there's a whole another layer to that too, that one or two people could have been the people that came there for you. Right, exactly.

1:24:08 They came there to see you, yes, even though the vast majority of the other ones didn't. And there's probably some expectations that come with that, right? And you can solidify A lifelong fan at that moment or you can breeze through it and they can be like, well, it was good, but it you know, it isn't, it didn't hit the mark. It's funny. That's what the Blue Ox show was for Tyler. I mean, Blue Ox is a bluegrass music festival and Tyler was not playing bluegrass. He was that was like nose to the grindstone days. It was rough and tumble. Oh, it's fantastic. And, and at that same one, I mean, Billy Strings was there too, and you can see that crossover. He I mean, he's a bluegrass guy, you know, but he was playing that newgrass style and nobody knew the rocket ship he was going to hop on either. But that was Tyler at that show where that's why there were fifty other people paying attention, because they were all there for a different type of music. That doesn't mean that Tyler wasn't a monster. It just means that the audience didn't suit his thing. But guess what?

1:25:08 The whole reason I went to Blue Ox was to see Tyler. I was there to see his 5:00 set or whatever it was and I left before the headliners. So I was the complete flip side of the coin. I was like, I've seen pertinier sandstone. I don't need to see them again. Like, I like bluegrass, but I went there to see Tyler and that's how that's how you connect. You know, anytime you have a stage and a mic, that's your opportunity to try to connect with someone. Yes, no matter how big or how small you are, no matter, like you said, like if there's two people or 100 people in the audience, just like always, just trying to make a connection of some sort, you know. But yeah, I love like how you said with Tyler, like you were just there for him and the for the headliners. Like, I loved seeing Carter Faith, like at High Noon Saloon in Madison and just, it was so small and intimate. And it's like, I, I mean, I could make this up, but I'm pretty sure she saw me.

1:26:04 And it's just like having that moment of just like, Oh my God. Like, hey, like with your like favorite person. It's like, wow, she saw me and that's cool. And like, just seeing them, like gain their success after that, it's like, I remember when, you know. Yeah. So we'll make it. We'll make a clip of that and tag her on Instagram. She could play. Please, she sees. It Well Mariah, it was a pleasure chatting with you. Yeah, it was a pleasure. Pleasure chatting with you too. I had a great time. Thank you. Just like sitting and chatting and it was just so like natural, organic and I had a great time. So that's what it is. Yeah, absolutely. It's my pleasure. Thanks. Keep bringing your art into the world. I've had a lot of people bring out that that comment. Like some people that want to come on, they're like, are you going to send me questions beforehand or what are we going to talk about?

1:26:49 And I always find I have to find a way to navigate the round. Like, I'm not going to send you anything. Like we're going to just sit down and talk AS2 humans, yeah. And then see where it goes. But I think there's a lot of there's a lot of connection that can be made because of that. Because I agree. Yeah, it's, it's tough, you know, like feel. Scripted, like if you were to set, which I'm glad you, you don't do that. Like if you were to send me questions, I'd be like, OK, he's going to ask me this and I'm going to answer like this and I'm going to say this and blah, blah, blah. Yeah, like this was just so natural. Like whatever came to my head, like came to my head or whatever we forgot about, we forgot about, and out the window it went. That's the biggest downside. It's funny that you bring that up.

1:27:30 Every single show, every single one, every guest. So you're going to be episode probably like 75 or 80 or something like that. And I can't think of one that afterwards I was like, damn, I wish we would have talked about this. Like it always happens and it's inevitable because it isn't planned, but there's so much connection to be had in that, that it brings out the true human. And that's what I think life's all about. Like I want to know more of the real humans and less of the PR humans, you know what I'm saying? Like, and I think people do too. So that's what I'm trying to do. But I'm, I'm one of those I'm, I'm living the podcast zone of what you're talking about right now. Like there'll be 1000 people that see this and, and those thousand people, I appreciate you, you know what I mean? So I appreciate your time.

1:28:15 Thank you.