Jeff Pritzl - Deer, DNR Career, CWD, Hunter Numbers, and Aldo Leopold - Episode #61

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What's up friends, welcome back
to Reed Wisconsin.

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Appreciate you for clicking
another episode.

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Grateful to have you here.
Today's episode is with Jeff

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Pritzel, deer specialist from
the Wisconsin DNR.

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Guess I should say former deer
specialist from the Wisconsin

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DNR because Jeff is retiring.
Super excited to share the

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conversation.
We're on the heels of another

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Wisconsin deer season and of
course, that's what we talk a

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lot about.
We talk about deer herd

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management, conservation, our
mutual appreciation of Aldo

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Leopold in the Sand County
Almanac, and a whole lot more.

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Really fascinating to catch Jeff
at this point of his career.

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He had a long history with the
DNR and grew into different

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roles, and he never expected to
be the deer specialist at the

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Wisconsin DNR, so it was great
talking about his journey.

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It was so fun talking about both
projecting the future of the

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Wisconsin deer herd.
What deer hunting culture means

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in Wisconsin and what he hopes
to continue as he forges off

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into retirement but wants to
continue to share his passion

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around it.
Big shout out to our sponsors as

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Also huge shout out to our newer
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Had a chance to talk with their
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Tagged in the copy below here.
And as we head into a new year,

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I also want to thank you for
being here with us.

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Really excited to embark on
another year of Root of

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Wisconsin and really happy
you're taking the journey with

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us.
Kicking it off with a bang here

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with Jeff and a lot of cool
stuff to come.

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So appreciate you being here.
Without further ado, let's get

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it moving.
Jeff Pritzel.

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So how I used to start, I used
to do this intro and right into

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this camera and then I'll come
to the guest and then everybody

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would get all nervous and stuff.
So now we just got to start

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talking and we'll just cut the
episode start Where it goes, I

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don't know.
We got it.

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You said the last one was the
one you were on.

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You were surprised it went three
hours or close to that or

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something.
I.

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Did yeah, that one pushed almost
almost three hours and then and

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I that's when I like and there
was people that spent three

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hours while consuming it.
So yeah.

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And there's a few that I like to
follow that they're, they're

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they tend to run 2 1/2 hours.
And that's those are the, those

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are ones if you're on a long
drive.

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Yeah, yeah.
That's why I take most of my

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pods in.
This is driving.

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It passes the time so quickly.
I, I like two people.

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Sometimes I'll listen to three.
You ever listen to the Meat

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Eater guys?
You ever listen to their pod?

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Yeah, yeah, I love it.
Like I, I love Renella's

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content.
I think it's good.

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All those guys do such a good
job.

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But the Meat Eater podcast, when
they get like 5 or 6 people

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around the table, I can't keep
up.

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I can't keep up with who's
saying what and I get a little

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confused.
I still want to, I, I haven't, I

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haven't listened to the whole 1
where they, they had a really

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good CWD talk two months ago or
three months ago.

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Have you listened to that one
yet?

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I have the last couple months
I've been kind of preoccupied

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with some other stuff, so I
haven't been keeping up on their

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on their regular podcast.
I'm, I'm a regular for Ryan

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Callahan's weekly thing because
it's easy, you know, and, and

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that that one you can do in, in,
in 1/2 an hour.

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But what, what captured me early
on with with meat eater was

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Steve's ability.
They they would bring some

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agency people on and he was
really good at and creating a

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situation where they could talk
candidly about what was going on

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behind the seeds in the agencies
and doing it in a way that it

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was engaging.
And I was like, this is great

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stuff that he's creating this
platform where people can see,

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you know, the agency folks in a
more of a real term.

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And I just again, the
conversations, the content, the

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way they set it up, I was just
like, thanks for giving the

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agencies that platform to for
people to see them in that

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light.
A. 100% yeah, I used to.

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This is a while ago now, but I
had a podcast called Wish Again

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Outdoors.
It was on traditional radio, but

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we also would record it and put
online and we would do the same.

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We would have a lot of agents on
the Wish.

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Again, it was in the UP, so
Michigan and Wisconsin.

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And I think that, you know,
closing that gap is super

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important, right?
The one you're talking about of

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like this perception versus
reality.

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And I don't know, maybe that's a
cool place to start today.

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You've had a long career in the
DNR.

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Yeah.
And I think there's there's less

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of that gap that exists that
people think, right?

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Like, I mean, you're what got
what what led you to a career in

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the DNR?
Let's start there.

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Well, I, I think it was kind of
the classic, I grew up in the

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70s and early 80s and a lot of
us youngsters aspired to be like

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our dads and grandpas and uncles
that a lot of them were, you

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know, hunting and fishing and
that kind of stuff.

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And I just remember spending
time as a kid in my

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grandfather's basement,
literally just kind of like

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going through his hunting
clothes and the, and the smell

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of the gun cabinet and just
going someday that's going to be

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me, you know?
And so you, you, you generated

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the sense of that's your
evolution.

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And it played out for me.
And when I was, and so my

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grandfather was my main mentor
in terms of exposure to hunting

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and fishing and all those kind
of things.

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And it, I, I just couldn't get
enough of it.

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But it, it, when I think about
it, it went even earlier than

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that.
My mom really cultivated an

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appreciation for nature above
and beyond just the hook and

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bullet stuff, you know, the
hunting and fishing at, you

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know, bird watching.
And I remember as a grade

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schooler, literally like reading
Peterson's field guide of birds

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from front to back as a book
and, and I, you know, so I

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really got it.
I got into birding and in the

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whole checklist thing of seeing
what you could see.

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So I had that going to.
But then the hunting and fishing

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stuff, you know, was really
flourishing.

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And I just was fortunate that I,
I grew up in central Wisconsin

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in Marshfield.
So it's just a hop skip from

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Stevens Point.
My mother was a alumni of UW

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Point as a teacher.
And so I was aware of Stevens

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Point.
And as soon as I found out they

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had a College of Natural
Resources, I was just like, oh

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boy.
And I had some freshman

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assignment to, Hey, you got a
right to a university and get

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their catalog and get just
thinking about steps.

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I wrote the point and got the
catalog.

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And so I was a freshman in high
school and I was like, I'm going

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to Stevens Point, going to
college and add resources.

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And a lot of people kind of
start on that path, as you would

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with any, you know, aspiration
of going to school and your path

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changes.
And for me, it just everything

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kind of kept falling into place
and stayed with the the Wildlife

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Conservation career as a
freshman.

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You know, they require you to
read Sand County Almanac from

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Aldo Leopold.
And that just super resonated

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with me until you get these this
feedback of oh, yeah, yeah, I'm

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on, I'm on the right, on the
right path.

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But yeah, I have to credit my
mom for cultivating that

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appreciation for nature in
general and my grandpa.

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And so then it was, and I've,
I've mentioned this a couple

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times recently as I reflect back
on what set me on this path.

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But he took me, we deer 100 in
central Wisconsin for the most

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part, but he had a connection up
in northwest Wisconsin and

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Bayfield County where they trout
fished.

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And he was like, I just wanted
to go up there and deer hunt.

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And so he took me as a 15 year
old up there.

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And it was one of these days
where and I really we didn't see

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much for a deer and I was cold
and it was back when we had

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winter season, but it was
opening afternoon and this this

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little buck came down the trail
or and we didn't have any

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antlerless permits.
And so it had to be a buck and I

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ended up killing this deer.
It was the only deer any of us

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saw the entire weekend.
And it was under circumstances

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that I think back now with what
I know, I'm like, none of that

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should have ever happened.
So it, that makes it even more

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of like that was a meant to be
situation.

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And when, when I, when I killed
that deer, it was in a kind of a

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awakening or epiphany that a
whatever a 15 year old could

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have at the time was that this
is, this isn't just a target,

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this is serious stuff.
You know, I just took a life of

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an animal that's about the same
size as me.

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And, and some people at that
point I think would go, I'm not,

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I, I can't do that.
And that's, that's fine.

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There's a lot of people that,
that would be the reaction I in

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within my own family.
I've seen that where they've

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tried it and they're like, no,
but that's not what happened to

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me.
For me, it was like, it was like

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this is a commitment that if I'm
going to do this and I and I do

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want to keep doing this, but but
this isn't just fun and games.

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And so coming from that, you
know, that sense of and I was

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always like that deer.
It's, you know, almost a

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spiritual experience and it
became inspiration and that

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really kind of set me on that
path.

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And so being able to have
something like that and reflect

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on it and always be reminded of
This is why you're doing that.

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And then the opportunity to
share that with other people

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and, and have them think about
try to bring things that might

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be in their subconscious.
Like I like, I really like doing

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this, but I don't know
necessarily why.

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It just resonates with me.
And well, let's explore.

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Here's why.
And these are the things that

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are that are happening.
And then the collective benefits

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of helping people understand how
to live more connected to the

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land, which is what Leopold was
trying to instill, you know, 100

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years ago now, almost.
And yeah, it just became, you

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know, pretty easy to to follow
that path.

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And I was fortunate that
everything fell into place.

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A lot of times when you follow a
passion, a lot of stuff gets

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written for you.
It just kind of doors open when

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you, when you follow things
passionately.

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That's there's so many good
points in there though.

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I've talked about this a couple
times on the pod.

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I have a four year old and last
year he got to, I had a really

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good opening day.
So I was done early and I got a

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chance they would fit in his
schedule.

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He could come out and see the
deer afterwards.

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And we've talked about it a lot
since.

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And I think it, there's a human
nature element that I don't

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know, some people may lose as a
hunter along the way of, of that

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thing.
You were just saying it's, it's

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really heavy to take a life, you
know, and, and I'll never

224
00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:33,040
forget, like our conversation, I
was really intentional about it

225
00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:36,960
with him, about the gratitude
that I have for the animal and,

226
00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:38,840
and how this is a melancholy
feeling.

227
00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:40,800
Like I taught my 4 year old what
melancholy means.

228
00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:48,520
And that is, it's part of it.
It's part of it that it, it

229
00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:52,400
probably does.
Maybe I'm sure it's pointed

230
00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:54,680
people in other directions and
said, I want to do this again,

231
00:12:54,680 --> 00:12:57,160
this isn't something and that,
and that's fine.

232
00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:01,000
But I think there's, there's
even a deeper level for me that

233
00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:03,760
I can think back to a lot of
conversations I've had about

234
00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:07,200
people asking like, well, what
gives you, you know, true

235
00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:09,200
satisfaction?
Where do you feel happy and

236
00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:13,360
content?
And almost always for me, if

237
00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:17,080
it's not like a family scenario,
when they know, like obviously

238
00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:20,520
when I'm with my family, I feel
connected and involved in human.

239
00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,640
But it's it's lost in the
wilderness, man.

240
00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:26,280
That's where I feel the most
alive.

241
00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:29,280
Yeah, and that's what I'm always
chasing, no matter if I'm deer

242
00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:33,000
hunting or trout fishing or
going on a hike or bird watching

243
00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:36,640
or doing whatever.
It's it's being connected to the

244
00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:38,760
outdoors.
And it's awesome that you sounds

245
00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:40,400
like you.
You kind of recognize that

246
00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:43,360
pretty early.
It took me a while to realize

247
00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:46,120
why I did it.
Well, yeah, and there was this,

248
00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:52,000
this sense of you noticed that
your senses kick in at a level

249
00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:56,680
that nothing else makes my my
hearing and my sight and

250
00:13:56,680 --> 00:14:00,600
everything so upfront and and,
and I remember I've had that

251
00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:03,760
experience a couple times.
Like I think that's why the

252
00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:07,040
opening day of archery season is
so popular.

253
00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:09,600
It's not so much that anyones
like especially Archers, they're

254
00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:11,160
not out to get in and get out
quickly.

255
00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:13,280
It's like I'm not, I don't
really want to fill my tag on

256
00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:17,080
opening day, but I want to feel
that feeling on opening day.

257
00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:20,480
And so that you climb into the
stand and you're sitting there

258
00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:22,600
and you're watching the world
wake up and it's like, Oh yeah,

259
00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:27,320
I, I haven't used my ears and my
eyes in this way in months.

260
00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:31,280
And I missed it, you know, and,
and so just that sense of, you

261
00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:33,840
know, that's part of that, that,
that connection.

262
00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:37,120
Yeah, yeah, I like to think of
the all day sits during the rut

263
00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:41,120
as an 8 hour meditation.
Like it's just an 8 hour time to

264
00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:44,080
sit there with your thoughts.
I try and it's easy to scroll.

265
00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:47,160
I try not to scroll.
I try to get involved in the

266
00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:50,480
woods and, and in my
surroundings and the, the senses

267
00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:52,520
are a huge part of it.
And I, and I think there's

268
00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:57,640
something built inside of us
that like human nature says that

269
00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:01,400
for me at least, it's something
integral to my existence.

270
00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:04,040
I have to do it sometimes.
I have to be there.

271
00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:08,240
It's funny you say that.
I actually just saw AI saw a

272
00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:12,240
video yesterday, the day before,
of a Northeast Wisconsin content

273
00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:15,160
creator, and she posts a lot of
hunting content.

274
00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:20,840
And she was talking about how
much she learned about her

275
00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:24,560
partner in hunting with him as a
couple.

276
00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:28,960
And I thought that was a really
unique angle on it, something I

277
00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:32,040
had never thought of it.
To me, the camaraderie of

278
00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:33,560
hunting is cool.
I spent a lot of time with my

279
00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:35,360
dad.
That's some of our core memories

280
00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:38,120
with my dad.
But at the same time, so much of

281
00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:42,240
hunting for me has been alone in
the woods.

282
00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:45,280
And I, I thought about it in a
different way, about past the

283
00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:49,200
camaraderie, but what you can
see in a human when you're out

284
00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:50,560
there hunting.
And I think that's what I'm

285
00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:51,680
hearing from you.
That's awesome.

286
00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:58,680
So like a a lot of time in the
DNR, you've had several

287
00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:00,760
different roles and you've been
in the current one that you're

288
00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:02,640
retiring now from for like 5
years, right?

289
00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:04,280
Yeah.
It would have been five years in

290
00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:07,400
a couple months here if I wasn't
winding winding down.

291
00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:10,560
Yeah.
And you said you were, you're

292
00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:13,040
kind of a waterfowler before
that, right?

293
00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:17,640
Yeah, that was what what got me
into it was my grand again going

294
00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:20,560
back to my grandfather.
He was waterfall hunting was his

295
00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:22,720
main thing.
And we we deer haunted because

296
00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:25,920
that was culturally the whole
family got together and and we

297
00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:28,600
deer haunted for venison.
You know, it, it wasn't, you

298
00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:31,800
know, and, and this is the 1970s
and 80s again.

299
00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:34,680
And, and for, for the most part,
you know, people were, we were,

300
00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:36,280
it's interesting.
We were turning the deer

301
00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:38,720
population over very quickly
back in those days because

302
00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:45,240
hunters were more opportunistic.
But waterfowling was, really was

303
00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:47,920
the thing we shared and, and I
just had that connection to it.

304
00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:50,840
So when I went to school at
Stevens Point, I focused on

305
00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:52,640
that.
And then, you know, the first

306
00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:55,320
position I got with the
department, it happened to be,

307
00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:57,520
you know, on the East Coast.
I've been in Manitowoc County my

308
00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:01,000
entire career and I grew up in
central Wisconsin.

309
00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:04,040
I got real connected to the
state properties that were out

310
00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:07,480
my back door, the Mead Wildlife
Area and McMillan Marsh, which

311
00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:08,960
is right on the north edge of
Marshfield.

312
00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:11,240
So I had that very accessible to
me.

313
00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:13,200
And so that was part.
So I really got that

314
00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:15,839
appreciation for public land as
well then.

315
00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:18,760
And then when I was fortunate
enough to get stationed in

316
00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:21,960
Manitowoc County, there's a
state property there called

317
00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:25,119
Collins Marsh that is a big
waterfall management area.

318
00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:28,319
So yeah, that was my my gig for
the first half of my career.

319
00:17:28,319 --> 00:17:33,360
And in the 1990s, it was a great
time to be a waterfowl,

320
00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:36,960
waterfowl and wetland habitat
specialist because that was the,

321
00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:41,000
the farm bill had just kicked in
and, and there was a lot of

322
00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:43,720
conservation reserve set aside
going on.

323
00:17:44,120 --> 00:17:47,840
There was a bunch of egg land
being taken out of production,

324
00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:50,080
some of it permanently, but some
of it was temporary.

325
00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:54,600
But we got to do a lot of
habitat restoration because of

326
00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:56,960
those programs that were around
in the 1990s.

327
00:17:56,960 --> 00:17:58,560
And so that's Part 1 of the
things.

328
00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:01,280
I can now sit back.
I can go on the landscape and

329
00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:04,480
go, I had something to do with
why that looks like that now.

330
00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:07,360
And that's of course, really
rewarding and fulfilling.

331
00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:11,760
But then when I moved into
supervision in the northeast

332
00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:14,760
area here in, in Green Bay,
that's where I would, if you

333
00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:18,360
would have asked me back then,
you're going to run the deer

334
00:18:18,360 --> 00:18:21,200
program someday.
How to say you're crazy kidding.

335
00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:25,240
You know, I began because there
is this element specific to deer

336
00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:28,960
that just comes with this set.
I don't want to call it baggage,

337
00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:31,760
but this expectation that it's,
it's controversial.

338
00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:34,080
It's never please everybody or
anybody.

339
00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:40,720
But when I started having to do
the deer stuff at at first it

340
00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:43,680
was uncomfortable, but then as I
got into it more and I really

341
00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:46,360
started to watch and see what
was playing out.

342
00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:49,200
Again, not so much from the
biological and ecological side

343
00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:51,840
of it, but what as we were just
talking about, you know, deer

344
00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:54,840
hunting is such a cultural, you
know, part of the fabric of

345
00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:57,320
Wisconsin and so many people are
connected to it.

346
00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:02,720
But what comes with that and the
this aspect of traditions of

347
00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:05,760
preconceived notions of, you
know, this is the way it's

348
00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:07,640
supposed to be.
And then, but I was from my

349
00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:09,720
position, I'm getting this
feedback from all these

350
00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:12,000
different angles and seeing
that, no, that's not the case at

351
00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:13,840
all.
There's there's a tremendous

352
00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:17,040
diversity of what's going on out
there.

353
00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:22,160
And and that's that's OK.
And then when the opportunity

354
00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:26,000
came later in in my career, it
almost, I to me, it felt like an

355
00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:29,000
encore career within my career.
It was like, all right at this

356
00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,280
point, you know, they there was
a need for the deer position

357
00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:36,720
came open for most of my career
was a position that was required

358
00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:40,400
to be in Madison and in today's
world, that's all changed.

359
00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:42,920
And then part of the fact that I
was able to do it from the Green

360
00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:45,400
Bay area and I didn't have to
relocate to Madison made it

361
00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:48,840
possible.
And, and, and then I already had

362
00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:52,840
a couple of decades of, of
exposure and, and awareness in,

363
00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:56,120
in Northeast Wisconsin.
And, and this part of the state

364
00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:58,840
has just always embraced that
outdoor lifestyle.

365
00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:01,880
I think at a little bit of a
level more than not that we

366
00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:04,760
don't statewide, but I remember
a couple of years ago there was

367
00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:08,880
a article or a survey or
something and it was like one of

368
00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:11,120
the greatest.
Places in the country for an

369
00:20:11,120 --> 00:20:15,400
outdoorsman to live in the Fox
Valley was like #1 just because

370
00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:18,680
there's so many options within
short driving distance, you

371
00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:21,920
know, of, of this area.
So it was fortunate to be in

372
00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:24,160
this area.
And then so, yeah, I'm, I want

373
00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:27,600
to see if I can take on some of
these, the challenges that are

374
00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:31,320
associated with, you know, deer
management in Wisconsin, which

375
00:20:31,360 --> 00:20:34,400
aren't so much about the deer,
but it's the Deer Hunter, it's

376
00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:35,800
us.
Absolutely.

377
00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:38,720
Yeah, two things in there that I
was planning to talk about

378
00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:39,360
today.
Awesome.

379
00:20:39,360 --> 00:20:42,200
Segways first we'll save the
next one might be a deer hunting

380
00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:43,200
rabbit hole.
So we'll get there.

381
00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:47,560
But the pressures of the roll,
that had to be interesting.

382
00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:53,880
Like it I, I envision five years
of just trying to please the

383
00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:55,680
unpleasable.
That's what I, that's what I

384
00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:57,800
think of.
Like it, it, it had to feel like

385
00:20:57,800 --> 00:20:59,760
that at times, right?
Like you, you, of course you're

386
00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:03,600
not going to please anybody.
But man, when people care about

387
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:06,480
something, opinions become
charged.

388
00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:10,760
And then with that, along with
the diversity of opinions that

389
00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:14,360
exist at times, did it feel like
that?

390
00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:18,560
Did it feel like it's just, what
would you say?

391
00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:25,920
Like did you, did you aim to I
guess appease a certain

392
00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:29,640
percentage or try to try to make
the most people happy or like

393
00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:31,880
how to how does that even work?
You had to feel pressures at

394
00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:36,080
times, right?
Sure, but so the the main thing

395
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:40,520
I always thought about in terms
of that wasn't necessarily

396
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:46,920
appease people, but definitely
have people come away from their

397
00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:52,600
interaction feeling heard.
And and I think that's where

398
00:21:53,120 --> 00:21:58,000
this this, this defaults thought
of that this is a fight.

399
00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:01,600
This is an argument this is
taking that you're you don't

400
00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:03,160
believe me and I don't believe
you.

401
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:05,480
And my job is to convince you
that you're wrong.

402
00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:09,240
That plays out in a lot of
arenas, right, But it and it

403
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:10,720
certainly played out in the in
the deer roll.

404
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:14,560
But for to be able to say I'm
not challenging, you're not

405
00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:18,000
wrong.
But now let's talk about why

406
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:21,160
you're exeriencing what you're
exeriencing and how and why

407
00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:23,800
things are the way they are.
And that I want you to

408
00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:28,360
understand that, you know, this
isn't a you're trying to, you

409
00:22:28,360 --> 00:22:32,800
know, change the way we're doing
things of or I want you to do it

410
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,600
differently.
But if you're aware of why

411
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,800
things are the way they are, we
can maybe have a better

412
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:41,160
conversation.
And I've had plenty of long

413
00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:44,920
phone calls with people that
were difficult that at the end

414
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:47,760
was a hey, thanks for listening.
I really appreciate it.

415
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:51,160
I know you can't please
everybody and I just appreciate

416
00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:55,120
that I had a chance to that it
feels like you heard where I'm

417
00:22:55,120 --> 00:22:57,880
coming from.
And and then I put that in the

418
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:02,440
context of the, you know, the
the reality when you've got

419
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:08,200
600,000 people that are doing
interested in something.

420
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:12,720
And I've said this, you know, in
a number of ways that, you know,

421
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,720
even if I had a 90% satisfaction
rate, which I don't pretend to

422
00:23:17,120 --> 00:23:20,880
have anything near that, even if
I did, that's still 60,000

423
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:25,000
people that are not happy and or
are going to want something

424
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:26,840
different.
And it's obviously much bigger

425
00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:29,160
than that.
So even under the best of

426
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,360
circumstances, you're going to
have 10s of thousands of people

427
00:23:32,360 --> 00:23:34,960
that unfortunately are coming
in.

428
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:38,640
So that's just a reality that
you're but so treating that as

429
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,160
in a well, how are we going to
fix that and make it go away?

430
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:44,840
You're never going to.
So it's like, how do you, you

431
00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:48,200
know, just foster conversation
so they can understand why

432
00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:52,960
they're they're experiencing the
experience that they're having.

433
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,000
And not to try to diminish it
and say that, well, you know,

434
00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:00,680
you're just not doing it right
or whatever, but it's, yeah,

435
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:05,160
that diversity of experiences
and diversity of exectations, it

436
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:07,360
really comes down to exectations
a lot of ways.

437
00:24:07,360 --> 00:24:10,320
And that's where we always
struggled within the agency of

438
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:15,800
how do we temper or manage
expectations because it is it's

439
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,240
natural within the the media
coverage of this.

440
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,800
It's just I to me, and that's
part of growing up in the Green

441
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:24,640
Bay area or, or working in Green
Bay area, the analogies to our

442
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,160
passions for the Packers and
sports and stuff like that.

443
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:31,600
People's enthusiasm for that
gets expressed in attention to

444
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:33,600
following the statistics and
then talking about the

445
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:35,760
statistics.
And we use the term Monday

446
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:39,240
morning quarterbacking all the
time, you know, in the world of,

447
00:24:39,360 --> 00:24:42,560
you know, football and that same
thing plays out, you know, in

448
00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,080
deer hunting, because there is
that, that passion and

449
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:48,080
enthusiasm.
And I always told my staff that

450
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:52,040
the, that, you know, passion is
a double edged sword because it

451
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:56,520
generates energy and drive and
enthusiasm, which is great, but

452
00:24:56,520 --> 00:25:00,120
it also can generate tunnel
vision because you become so

453
00:25:00,120 --> 00:25:05,080
focused on it's a this or
nothing and, or, and because

454
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:09,400
collectively in the state, if
you looked at those statistics,

455
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:15,120
they're really pretty good.
But again, you're still going to

456
00:25:15,120 --> 00:25:17,400
have 10s of thousands of
outliers.

457
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,160
And so it's always going to
generate that sense of what are

458
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:23,320
you talking about?
I'm not experiencing that.

459
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:28,640
And I want to and that's
understandable, but that's where

460
00:25:29,120 --> 00:25:33,280
I always kind of cringe when we
talk about, yeah, there's two

461
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:35,920
million, 2 million deer on the
landscape in Wisconsin because

462
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,920
that right away it generates
this expectation all there's

463
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,720
deer everywhere.
But one of the challenges with

464
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,760
it that's always been is that
those animals are very unevenly

465
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:47,800
distributed on the landscape.
And there's going to be even in

466
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,560
the counties like Waupaca and
Shawno and South of there where

467
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:55,320
if you looked at our, our
overall like beer killed per

468
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:57,680
square mile, you know, some of
the best in the country.

469
00:25:58,120 --> 00:26:00,960
But there's people in those
counties that are not having

470
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,920
good deer hunting experiences.
And it's, and it's, there's many

471
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:08,200
different reasons for that, but
all 600,000 of us can't be

472
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:11,440
hunting an optimal, you know,
deer country.

473
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:15,240
Every square mile isn't, isn't
created the same, you know, for

474
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:16,240
a deer.
And so that's one of the things

475
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,440
that makes it interesting.
And then it always get there's

476
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,280
the scale of we look at it and
it's very large scale, you know,

477
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,880
account hundreds of square miles
and 10s of thousands of deer.

478
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,680
You know, that's the scale that
we're managing and that the

479
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:33,880
individual hunters experiences a
square mile or maybe a couple

480
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,760
square miles scattered around.
But when we talk about averages,

481
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,600
often times it doesn't reflect
what you've got individuals on

482
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:43,720
other either end of that
spectrum often times.

483
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:47,480
And so having that conversation
and acknowledging that, you

484
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,840
know, just kind of helps.
OK, Going back to what you said

485
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:53,880
earlier about yeah, there's
you'll, you'll never please

486
00:26:53,880 --> 00:27:00,160
everybody and having that as an
objective is unrealistic. 100%

487
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:05,280
and I mean even the diversity of
how you approach something as a

488
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,360
Deer Hunter, I mean there's
people that'll go to a new spot

489
00:27:08,360 --> 00:27:10,760
every single time.
If they're public land hunter,

490
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:13,240
they'll you know, they're cool
beaten 4 miles of brush and

491
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:14,560
they'll go to a new spot every
time.

492
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,640
And then compare that to the
opinion of a person who walks to

493
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,800
the same deer stand from
September 25th or whatever till

494
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,800
then.
The gun season, like even that

495
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,080
and the understanding about how
they approach the craft leads to

496
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:31,440
such different expectations and
experiences throughout it.

497
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:33,000
So I thought that was
fascinating.

498
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,320
That's one thing that really
I've appreciated with you since

499
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:38,040
you took the role.
I, I think you've done a great

500
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:42,560
job of being that conduit, that
pragmatic voice of saying like

501
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:44,480
the OK, this isn't the same for
everybody.

502
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:48,440
It's cool if there's, you know,
all these deer in this area of

503
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:50,800
the state and there's less in
this state.

504
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:54,680
That's just how it is and we
have to manage it effectively.

505
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:58,160
But I think the communication
piece of, of you mentioned

506
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,920
people being heard earlier,
that's such an important thing

507
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:05,760
of just like finding that common
ground, you know, like sometimes

508
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:08,320
people just want to have their
voice out there and, and know

509
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,880
that that's awesome.
Second thing you had mentioned

510
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,400
in there might get us into a
little bit more XS and OS, but

511
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:16,960
you talked about how deer
hunters of overall become a

512
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,400
little bit more selective and
less opportunistic.

513
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:22,880
I, I just had a funny
conversation the other day.

514
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:26,040
I was talking about my hunting
camp growing up and I had an

515
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:30,400
uncle that his goal was to fill
every tag he had as quickly as

516
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,280
he could.
So you would go to the stand and

517
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,320
if he had the opportunity to
fill his three tags at that time

518
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:38,160
it was probably a buck and two
doe tags.

519
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,240
What if if something brown
walked in front of it was in

520
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:44,200
danger, it was going to be
harvested.

521
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,040
I noticed as of late it seems
like there's almost some

522
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:54,480
communication to maybe push
hunters back in that direction a

523
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,360
little bit.
What is that mindset done to the

524
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:02,440
population and how is that
changed deer management in

525
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:06,240
Wisconsin over the years?
Yeah, that is a rabbit hole.

526
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,480
Such a big rabbit hole, yeah.
But it's a, it's a good one.

527
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:13,040
It's an important one for people
to understand because again,

528
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:17,320
there there's such, there's this
embedded and ingrained sense of

529
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,120
tradition associated with the
hunt, right?

530
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:24,040
That and part of that becomes
the, you know, I, this is the

531
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:27,120
way it was as I was introduced
to it.

532
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:28,760
And I fell in love with that,
that way.

533
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:30,360
And I wanted to always stay that
way.

534
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,560
And it, it just, it never does.
And whether we get into the

535
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:37,440
discussion of what's happened to
the traditional deer camp in the

536
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:41,440
North versus what's happened in
in the, you know, southern half

537
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,680
of the state and how these
shifting baselines of of

538
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,280
expectations there or there
should be, you know, over the

539
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:50,160
course of time.
But to the question of how is

540
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:54,160
that what's changed in terms of
how it affected your management?

541
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:59,160
Is it really has been a
challenge that's gotten more

542
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,720
challenging because what we've
seen over the course of decades

543
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:09,320
is certainly a shift towards
deer hunting on private land as

544
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:11,560
opposed to public land.
And, and really, and quite

545
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,120
honestly, in private land
owners, especially if they're

546
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,480
land owners for the sake of deer
hunting, they're, they're

547
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:19,640
managing their own experience
and they're going to, you know,

548
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,560
we give them side boards, but
they're going to do things as

549
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:26,600
they are comfortable with based
on their, their objectives and

550
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:28,360
what they've learned over the
years.

551
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:34,360
But what we've, if we look at
just the harvest statistics that

552
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,480
you said that those folks are
still out that are, do take an

553
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:44,080
opportunistic approach, but
they're the minority and their

554
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:45,360
impact.
And there's still this

555
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,080
perception that, well, in
general, if you give hunters the

556
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:49,800
opportunity, they're going to
take it.

557
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:54,880
And the risk of overexploiting
the resource is real and act in

558
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:58,280
the system that we work within
that's we've had for decades and

559
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:02,280
decades was built under the
premise of protecting the

560
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:06,720
resource from overexploitation,
from opportunistic overzealous

561
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:09,800
harvesters.
And that really is rooted way

562
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:12,160
back into the, you know, the
market hunting days, you know,

563
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:16,720
the 1800s and the subsistence
living that that did result in

564
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:20,160
the eradication of, of critters.
To the degree that we're, we're

565
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:22,600
still like the system is built
to make sure that doesn't happen

566
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:24,720
again.
But we still operate from that

567
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:28,840
perspective to the degree that
we're probably overly cautious

568
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:32,760
that, you know, we don't want
to, you know, cause over

569
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:34,480
exploitation.
But what when we look at the

570
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:38,800
harvest records and and hunters
making their own decision as to

571
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:42,400
whether or not to pull the
trigger in a given situation?

572
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:47,920
We certainly see a trend towards
self corrections and and being

573
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:51,720
more self selecting.
And although there are the

574
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,800
hunters that, you know, we can
look in our statistics and they

575
00:31:54,800 --> 00:32:01,400
may take 345 deer in a year,
they are such a small portion of

576
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:05,320
the total that it's almost not
influential at that level.

577
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:08,920
I mean, what we see is most
first of all, we have to take

578
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:12,960
the 600,000 hunters and, and
carve out just the what we would

579
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:16,280
call the successful portion of
that, which isn't the same every

580
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:17,960
year.
I mean, some of them it is we.

581
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,240
And and when we think about
going back to you, you were

582
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:25,240
bringing up the idea that we've
been maybe promoting additional

583
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,280
harvest.
We're not talking about or to

584
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:31,120
everybody.
We're talking to that subset of

585
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:35,640
hunters that are very fortunate
that are well positioned to have

586
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:39,280
access to deer to the really to
the degree that you know,

587
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:41,000
they're going to get a deer when
they want to get a deer.

588
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:46,160
And what we do know about that
subset is once they get a deer,

589
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,120
they're very, they can very
selective of whether they're

590
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:50,840
going to get an additional deer
or not.

591
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:56,000
And so that's where the
opportunity lies to, you know,

592
00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:00,960
increase deer harvest if that
subset feels like they have a

593
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:06,400
legitimate responsible venue or
path for those deer to go and be

594
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:10,040
utilized because we like, we've
our needs are met, we're done.

595
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:14,680
But there's a whole bunch of
people that, whose needs aren't

596
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,600
being met and you have the,
you're in the fortunate position

597
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:21,200
to maybe help them out.
And, and there's a couple of

598
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:23,600
different ways to, to go about
that.

599
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:29,480
But one of the micro we talked
earlier about the scale of, you

600
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:32,920
know, looking, I can look at
county X and say we need to take

601
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:35,640
4000 antlerless deer out of this
county.

602
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:39,400
And historically we've only been
taking 2000 antlerless deer.

603
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:42,920
So how are we going to get those
other 2000 antlerless deer?

604
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,000
And you can't say to everybody,
you know, hey, you know, kill a

605
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:48,440
couple more 1000 deer because
some of them would be like I

606
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:50,680
would if I could, you know,
there.

607
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:52,520
I just don't have that
opportunity.

608
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:54,720
And that makes me uncomfortable
that you're promoting this to

609
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:56,800
others.
But the reality is, is there

610
00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:01,160
others that that do?
And it's, and you can either

611
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,280
say, all right, well, maybe, you
know, bring a few other people

612
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:06,880
in that would be happy to take
an antlerless deer for venison

613
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:13,960
or just take one extra deer and
have pre planned what's going to

614
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:15,840
happen with that deer, whether
it's going to go into the formal

615
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:18,719
deer donation program or just
your own personal network.

616
00:34:19,679 --> 00:34:24,440
And when I start thinking about
that, I think about how hunters

617
00:34:27,679 --> 00:34:30,520
literally for, you know,
thousands of years, the hunters

618
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:33,960
were a subset of the of the
community and they haunted for

619
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,800
the community as as a whole.
And as we were talking about

620
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:40,920
earlier, hunting has become a
very personal experience and a

621
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:44,360
very individual experience.
And that's great and fine for

622
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:46,040
all the things we were talking
about earlier.

623
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:50,400
But there is an important role
for that portion of the hunting

624
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:54,159
community that that is fortunate
and has access to maybe take

625
00:34:54,159 --> 00:34:57,000
that approach of it's, it's a
win win.

626
00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,600
If I could, you know, take that
approach of hunting for my

627
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:02,400
community.
And then you, you end up having

628
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,440
those individual discussions
with, with land owners or a

629
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,520
group of people that have their
objectives and what's their

630
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:14,000
comfort level of increasing deer
harvest as a, is it going to

631
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,880
improve their experience in the
future or do they see that as a

632
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:22,200
potential concern?
And, and the other thing I've

633
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:28,800
observed is when we do talk
about liberalizing opportunity

634
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:31,600
for a number of different
reasons.

635
00:35:32,240 --> 00:35:36,720
Again, for us at the big scale,
big picture level, it's about

636
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:41,480
keeping people hunting, keeping.
We've talked quite a bit the

637
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:43,640
last couple years about how
we're losing hunter numbers

638
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:46,520
overall, but how can we keep
this, you know, simpler and just

639
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:51,960
make it more open The for those
that group of hunters that

640
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:55,520
unfortunately find themselves
not having their experience

641
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:58,880
fulfilled, You know, they
approach that with while you're

642
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:03,200
going to let these people over
here take too many deer, that's

643
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,560
going to have, I'm never going
to get to catch up to them with

644
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:08,920
that experience.
If you're letting them over

645
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:14,440
there, you know, take more deer.
But yet the factors that are

646
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:18,080
causing it not to be playing out
well for you, that may not be

647
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:21,560
what the driving force is.
You know, we could say, OK, you

648
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:25,240
guys can't shoot any more deer
until these guys over here have

649
00:36:25,240 --> 00:36:27,160
better deer hunting, and that
may never happen.

650
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:28,640
Right.
It's not like the deer are going

651
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:30,800
to go walking over.
There so in the meantime and

652
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:32,800
then there's all kinds of
discussions we can go in with

653
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:34,960
with that as far as well.
You know, everyone's like, well,

654
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:38,360
how can I improve my odds?
And there's plenty of

655
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:42,160
conversation about that.
I mean, in the worlds of how do

656
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:46,720
you manage your property to make
it better for the deer, which is

657
00:36:46,720 --> 00:36:49,720
great.
But if everybody's doing that

658
00:36:49,720 --> 00:36:53,240
collectively there, there's a
point where it's like, we've

659
00:36:53,240 --> 00:36:58,160
made it so good for the deer
that, that it's, it can have end

660
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:01,480
up having a negative impact on
deer movement on the landscape

661
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:04,440
and, and those types of things.
So that's the part where, yeah,

662
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:06,760
we can get into those those
conversations.

663
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:13,760
And it's our our system has been
again built for so long that

664
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:21,160
it's based on the annual
allocation of antlerless harvest

665
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:25,480
opportunity as the mechanism by
which we steer the direction of

666
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:30,480
the deer population.
And that worked in the 1960s and

667
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:34,720
70s and 80s.
And but in the 1990s, there was

668
00:37:34,720 --> 00:37:40,560
some things that really changed
that we have seen now over the

669
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:43,960
last couple of decades that we
we still live with this, the

670
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:50,600
strong sense of we can manifest
our destiny, you know, by

671
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:52,800
manipulating harvest
opportunity.

672
00:37:53,240 --> 00:37:57,480
But it's really playing out at a
different level now on again,

673
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,520
with with the predominance of
how people are choosing to

674
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,280
specially in private land, you
know, manage their dear harvest.

675
00:38:03,720 --> 00:38:08,720
So there's great conversations
to have if we can make room for

676
00:38:08,720 --> 00:38:13,440
it by maybe reducing the focus
on, well, just how many hours

677
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:16,120
permits are we going to make
available and put a lot of time

678
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:21,080
and effort into that when that
in and of itself probably hasn't

679
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:23,000
doesn't have the punch that it
once did.

680
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:26,480
And so that's, that's the stuff
I've kind of enjoyed cultivating

681
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:29,240
over the last number of years.
Yeah, it's fascinating to think

682
00:38:29,240 --> 00:38:32,000
about because I think that makes
complete sense.

683
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:34,960
Like you could give everybody 10
antler list tags.

684
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:39,240
If 2% of them get filled, it
doesn't do anything.

685
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:41,200
You know, it's super
interesting.

686
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:45,840
What, what about that decline in
numbers?

687
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:47,600
That's something I've thought
about a little bit.

688
00:38:47,720 --> 00:38:51,040
The more than a little bit,
actually, and, you know, the,

689
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:56,600
the reasoning behind it and what
we, what we as outdoorsmen can

690
00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:01,800
do to share the passion.
I see a, I see a lot of pockets

691
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:05,080
that I think are going to be an
upward trajectory of, you know,

692
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:09,400
younger people, they have
platforms now to share their

693
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:13,880
experience where maybe someone
can learn how to bow hunt on

694
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:14,720
YouTube.
Now.

695
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:17,440
Bow hunting is a very difficult
thing if you want to be

696
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:19,280
successful.
It's pretty tough, especially if

697
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:22,200
you tried doing it yourself,
like just buying a bow and

698
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:24,800
learning how to shoot it and
going out on this public land.

699
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:28,240
It's going to take a while for
you to feel it out, especially

700
00:39:28,240 --> 00:39:29,960
without somebody kind of showing
you the ropes.

701
00:39:31,720 --> 00:39:34,040
I think that's one thing that's
going to push it in a good

702
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:35,640
direction.
Before we hopped on, we talked

703
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:38,440
about the folks from the hunting
public doing awesome content and

704
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:41,640
like people like that.
OK, as hunter, I've been

705
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:44,280
checking their stuff out down
out of outside of Milwaukee.

706
00:39:44,720 --> 00:39:50,520
Just like sharing the passion I
think will hopefully ignite some

707
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:53,600
flames of people that don't have
avenues to the outdoors.

708
00:39:54,240 --> 00:40:00,080
But I mean, that's been around
for a while and I still hear the

709
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:04,760
declining number conversation.
And that's concerning really if

710
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:12,360
you forecast out long term
because like Hunter's dollars

711
00:40:12,720 --> 00:40:16,000
feed conservation and push
conservation forward in so many

712
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,920
different ways and if that
continues to compress.

713
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:25,200
Opportunists from other areas
that have more, you know, other

714
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:29,240
vested interests and stuff can
it can lead to differing

715
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:33,400
outcomes of what happens to, you
know, public land use.

716
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:36,920
Look at what we've all the all
the great work that's done in

717
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:40,840
Wisconsin of conserving and
rehabilitating trout streams and

718
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:45,840
trout habitat, things like that.
That's all fed by dollars and

719
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:50,560
cents from hunters, fishers,
people that enjoy the outdoors.

720
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:52,840
What's your take on that right
now?

721
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:56,440
That condensing numbers are both
the importance of it, the

722
00:40:56,440 --> 00:41:00,200
trajectory that it's going and
how we as outdoors people can

723
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:01,480
impact that.
Yeah.

724
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:08,840
Well, so the first thing is that
these projections were talked

725
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:12,080
about and forecasted 30 years
ago.

726
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:17,120
And for 30 years, you know,
we've been saying, you know,

727
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:21,800
that model that you were
describing is going to have to

728
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:25,520
change or something's going to
have to change.

729
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:28,200
Otherwise, as you're describing,
you know, it's, it's kind of on

730
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:31,640
a dead end path or it's, it's
not a great, you know, business

731
00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:33,240
plan.
And so there's been a long

732
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:37,360
healthy discussion about what is
the better strategy of do we

733
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:41,320
double down as as that hunting
population gets smaller?

734
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:45,320
Is the only answer to increase
their license fees, you know, to

735
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:49,120
keep up with the cost of
operations at a stronger burden.

736
00:41:49,240 --> 00:41:51,320
You know, to each of those
individual, you know, kind of a

737
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:56,520
user pay system as opposed to a
broader sharing of the load,

738
00:41:56,560 --> 00:42:00,080
recognizing that there's a lot
of non hunters that benefit, you

739
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,000
know, from from conservation, of
course, and appreciate wildlife.

740
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:06,160
But then there's that, there is
that, that unknown and and that

741
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:09,160
threat that, well, if you have
more different diverse views at

742
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:12,560
the table, is that going to
water down and and interfere

743
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:14,480
with our objectives?
And that's, that's

744
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:18,960
understandable, but that's,
that's likely, that's evolving,

745
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:22,280
you know, either way.
And so it, it does become, how

746
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:24,640
do we create a platform where
there's a more inclusive

747
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:29,120
conversation to recognize that
it's not one or the other, It's

748
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:32,160
not mutually exclusive.
You know, these things can play

749
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:37,120
out, you know, side by side.
But so as it relates to that,

750
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:40,560
you know, again, 30 years ago,
it was being forecast that what

751
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:42,720
we're seeing play out right now
is going to play out.

752
00:42:42,720 --> 00:42:45,760
And they weren't wrong.
And, and it really simply comes

753
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:48,480
down to demographics of, of our
population.

754
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:52,080
And, and it first we talked
about it in terms of, well, it

755
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:54,840
is, it's just about the baby
boomer generation.

756
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:57,600
And, and this that plays out in
a lot of other arenas too,

757
00:42:57,600 --> 00:42:58,960
right?
It's like, man, that baby boomer

758
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:02,840
generation has such an impact by
virtue of the size that as they

759
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:05,800
are, you know, aging out of
participation or aging out of,

760
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:08,360
of the population.
That's they're not being

761
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:11,760
backfilled.
And there's, that's, that's part

762
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:13,560
of it.
But on, on the other end, the

763
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:17,480
reason they're not being
backfilled isn't just the age

764
00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:21,000
profile of our population.
It's that, you know, the, the,

765
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:23,840
the younger kids these days, you
know, I think about, we talked

766
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:26,400
about earlier and when I was
came into this in the 70s and

767
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:29,440
80s, it was like the options of
how you're going to spend your

768
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:34,120
free time were, were not as many
on the table and very appealing,

769
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:37,600
you know, to, you know, follow
in the footsteps of your dad or

770
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:39,160
your grandpa, your uncle, your
mentors.

771
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:42,320
And again, it was a very male
dominated, you know, thing at

772
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:43,960
that time.
And, and one of the bright spots

773
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:47,680
that we have seen over the past,
you know, 15 years is the, is

774
00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:50,760
the growth of female
participation for, for a number

775
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:54,360
of different reasons.
Just not beyond the sake of him.

776
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:58,040
These are such cool experiences.
We're just glad you get, you

777
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:00,720
know, you're welcomed and
embracing it and enjoying it

778
00:44:00,720 --> 00:44:04,360
too.
But we see very different age

779
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:13,080
profile entertainment of boys
versus girls in that they try it

780
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:19,160
out really well as a teenager,
but we don't hang on to them at

781
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:22,160
the same rate we do hang on to
male participants.

782
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:25,120
But the other thing that's been
interesting is, as you pointed

783
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:29,120
out, the entry point isn't
doesn't have to be at 12 years

784
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:34,320
old anymore, but because it used
to be dependent on you pass, it

785
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:36,920
is like you said, it's
difficult, it's intimidating to

786
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:40,440
get exposed, to get started.
You need a mentor to show you

787
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:43,160
the ropes.
But now that can happen

788
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:45,560
virtually, you know, and you can
in what?

789
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:49,640
So we are seeing a lot of, you
know, adults that didn't grow up

790
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:52,520
with the exposure that find it
very attractive and appealing

791
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:56,160
for a whole host of reasons,
whether it's the, the food

792
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:59,120
connection aspect of it or the
spiritual connection that we

793
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:01,040
were talking about earlier.
So, and that's just, that's

794
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:02,200
great.
So it is neat to see.

795
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:05,120
So we will for the foreseeable
futures continue to have

796
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:08,680
hundreds of thousands of people
participating and that's great.

797
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:13,960
But if we go back to the
specifics of deer and deer

798
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:17,760
management and what does it mean
that we are losing?

799
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:21,480
We, we peaked out at about
700,000 deer hunters at the turn

800
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:25,320
of the century at 2000.
And we've lost about 100,000

801
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:27,720
since then.
So we're at 600,000 now.

802
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:30,680
And so there's been a lot of,
well, how do we stop that?

803
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:34,360
How do we turn the corner or
stabilize it?

804
00:45:34,720 --> 00:45:38,000
And the frank reality is the
forecast is we're going to lose

805
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:40,800
another 100,000 over the next 10
to 15 years.

806
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:44,360
It's, it's just, and there's
more research going into why and

807
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:47,680
how.
And so you can put a time and

808
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:50,320
effort into, well, how do we
build those numbers back up?

809
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:55,920
Or you put time and effort into
how do we make 500,000 deer

810
00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:59,480
hunters be as effective as
700,000 deer hunters in managing

811
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:02,760
the deer population And the, the
people that want to quickly say,

812
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:05,400
well, yeah, we're losing deer
hunters because Wisconsin

813
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:08,120
doesn't know how to manage deer
and it's just gone bad.

814
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:10,600
And it, and wanting to pin it on
something.

815
00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:13,520
And it's natural to say to want
to find a fix.

816
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:16,120
It's like if we just do this, we
can stop this.

817
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:18,360
And, and, and if they wouldn't
have done this, this wouldn't

818
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:23,400
have happened.
But if you look at our our other

819
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:27,320
big whitetail states in the
country, you know, they're all

820
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:29,600
feeling the same thing.
It's, it's playing out in

821
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:32,160
Michigan at probably twice the
rate that it's happening in

822
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:35,200
Wisconsin and some of the other
big whitetail states like Ohio

823
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:37,520
and Pennsylvania and a couple of
the eastern states.

824
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:41,760
So it's not something that
anyone state's policy is doing

825
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:43,960
wrong that's turning hunters
off.

826
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:47,720
It's just these other factors
that are really, frankly aren't

827
00:46:47,720 --> 00:46:50,680
within our control.
And they're just part of, you

828
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:52,400
know, cultural shifts that are
happening.

829
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:56,280
So all we can do is expose and,
and share and have these

830
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:58,600
conversations that will get
people intrigued.

831
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:03,520
And, and again, it can happen
more effectively from folks like

832
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:06,280
you mentioned from the outside,
because if it comes from the

833
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:09,560
agency and it comes with this
baggage of, well, they have

834
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:11,400
their own agenda.
They're just trying to sell more

835
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:13,600
licenses to keep the revenue
coming in.

836
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:17,600
You know, and you know that you
hear that narrative and I just,

837
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:22,040
that's not the case at all.
But it's understandable that

838
00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:24,720
people would think, well, that's
our, our reason or our, our

839
00:47:24,720 --> 00:47:28,840
logic for going toward it.
But so it's to me, it's been

840
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:35,840
more the challenge has been, OK,
how do we maintain an aspect of

841
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:40,160
deer management through deer
hunting, which is the way it was

842
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:42,640
always set up.
And so that's where I think it's

843
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:48,160
important to then go back to
thinking about Wisconsin's non

844
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:51,200
hunting community, which is by
far way bigger than the hunting

845
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:53,240
community.
As much as this is a again, we

846
00:47:53,240 --> 00:47:56,720
said part of our fabric, it's
big deal in Wisconsin and it

847
00:47:56,720 --> 00:47:59,040
that's great.
We still are a pretty small

848
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:04,320
chunk of the total population,
but we enjoy general support

849
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:07,960
from the whole population, but
we kind of take that for

850
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:13,680
granted.
And so that's where I think as

851
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:18,480
our portion of the our
population gets smaller as per

852
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:21,040
capita, you know, again, if
we're we, you know, we were

853
00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:24,600
700,000, now we're 600,000.
If we're going to be 500,000,

854
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:27,280
you know, from a policy
development standpoint, we're

855
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:31,560
going to lose ground
proportionally and we become

856
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:36,520
more dependent on that non
hunting community to see us as

857
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:41,240
an asset and continue to say,
yeah, we want them to be

858
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:43,120
vibrant, robust.
We want to keep that going.

859
00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:45,440
I don't have any interest in
participating, but I'm cool with

860
00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:49,280
what they're doing as long as I
see the upside to it.

861
00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:52,800
And so that's that goes back to
that hunting for your community

862
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:55,880
as opposed to just for yourself,
because we could be in a

863
00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:57,520
position.
And then when I talk to some of

864
00:48:57,520 --> 00:49:03,640
my colleagues from other states
out East, that's where the, and

865
00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:06,400
as is the case with a lot of
things in culture for us in the

866
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:09,240
Midwest, if you want to see your
future, look to the coasts,

867
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:11,680
right?
And so we can look to what's

868
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:16,520
going on out East and go that
could be us in X number of years

869
00:49:16,720 --> 00:49:18,840
if this goes on.
So when you see some of their

870
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:24,280
conversations about, yeah, we,
we're looking at 5 to 10 years

871
00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:26,680
from now, recreational deer
hunting is not going to be the

872
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:30,440
mechanism by which we can say we
are quote UN quote, managing

873
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:33,280
deer.
And some would, would, would

874
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:37,280
reasonably make that argument
now that we're not managing the

875
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:41,480
deer population.
And So what does management

876
00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:43,560
mean?
You know, and, and I, and I've

877
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:45,880
had some interesting
philosophical conversations with

878
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:50,440
folks about is the word
management crutch or a problem?

879
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:54,600
Because the word management
insinuates control is like we

880
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:57,040
are in control of the outcome.
And we just have to do this,

881
00:49:57,040 --> 00:50:00,440
turn this dial, do that, change
this policy, and we can shape

882
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:04,280
the outcome.
When in reality, a lot of the

883
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:07,040
things that shape the trajectory
of where things are going are,

884
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:12,640
are independent and outside of
the realm of what we can can,

885
00:50:12,720 --> 00:50:17,640
can quote, UN quote manage.
And so understanding that helps

886
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:19,880
with this.
When we talked about earlier

887
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:23,680
about expectations, you know, if
there's this expectation that,

888
00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:26,880
well, if you just do this, this
will happen, or if you would

889
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:30,240
just do this, it'll go back to
the way it was that that creates

890
00:50:30,240 --> 00:50:32,720
an expectation that
unfortunately probably isn't

891
00:50:32,720 --> 00:50:35,160
realistic.
And so it's you need to have a

892
00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:39,360
different conversation of these
are the factors to be aware of

893
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:45,200
that look at timber markets,
look at land use pattern changes

894
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:49,880
that if you objectively look at
our history, as much as deer

895
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:53,560
hunting is such a high profile
thing and we embrace it and

896
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:55,240
enjoy it.
And it's it's a great part of

897
00:50:55,240 --> 00:50:57,440
Wisconsin.
It creates this like, well, we

898
00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:00,280
somehow made this happen.
We're really been the

899
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:05,360
benefactors of just other things
really that influenced land use

900
00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:09,800
patterns on the landscape.
Deer are a product of the land,

901
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:16,080
and changes in the landscape, in
deer flourish in areas of

902
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:20,360
disturbance on the landscape.
And so to the degree that things

903
00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:24,200
happened on the landscape that
were done not with deer in mind,

904
00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:29,000
but with agriculture in mind or
forestry in mind, or, you know,

905
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:33,760
name whatever you want in terms
of monetizing or making money

906
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:35,760
off the land.
And all the things we've done,

907
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:38,880
some of them have just been
incidentally very beneficial to

908
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:41,720
deer.
And that was getting recognized

909
00:51:41,720 --> 00:51:45,560
100 years ago by Elder Leopold.
So those concepts, you know,

910
00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:49,680
we've known for a long time.
But again, we still carry this

911
00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:54,800
presumption that we are, you
know, building the road as to

912
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:58,600
where this is going.
When I think reality, our, our

913
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:02,760
expectations, our responsibility
should be, you know, our job is

914
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:05,000
to keep the road, the car on the
road.

915
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:06,280
We're the guard rails.
Yeah.

916
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:09,280
And when it goes in the ditch,
we're there to help get it back

917
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:13,040
on the road.
But but the idea that we get to

918
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:17,200
build the road to where we want
to go, you know, probably,

919
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:20,560
again, sets up false
expectations that will end up

920
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:23,200
being unrealized and then
generates frustration.

921
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:26,480
And so, yeah, those are the kind
of conversations I think we, you

922
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:28,880
know, need to be having in the
future, you know, to keep this

923
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:30,440
rolling.
And I think we will.

924
00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:34,480
I am optimistic and for reasons,
like you said, the platforms in

925
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:39,600
the in the conversations that
are happening now are exposing

926
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:42,120
people to, you know, these
different ideas.

927
00:52:42,240 --> 00:52:45,680
And it's not just the way
grandpa told us it should be.

928
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:49,720
And that's that's great.
I have my historian with this

929
00:52:49,720 --> 00:52:52,480
stuff.
I love the 1940s, dear

930
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:56,160
literature, and seeing how
things happened then.

931
00:52:56,640 --> 00:52:59,480
And when I read that, some of it
is just like, Oh my gosh, you

932
00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:04,960
could take this paragraph out of
this 1940s passage in in the

933
00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:09,520
Vilas County newspaper that was,
you know, ridiculing the DNR and

934
00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:11,760
plug it in the last year's
column.

935
00:53:11,960 --> 00:53:13,400
And it's the exact same
paragraph.

936
00:53:15,240 --> 00:53:19,520
Yeah, super true.
How does, how does access play

937
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:20,960
into it?
I think it's super interesting

938
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:25,480
because talking about like the
dichotomy between, you know, far

939
00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:29,880
N Wisconsin and crop and farm
country that's obviously going

940
00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:34,720
to it leads to two different
deer herds like manage

941
00:53:34,720 --> 00:53:37,760
differently.
But when we think about like

942
00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:45,040
when I think about hunters
starting hunting, success is

943
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:47,800
important.
Like if somebody just starting

944
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:50,320
hunting, you know, spends a lot
of time in the woods and doesn't

945
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:53,840
see many, they're going to maybe
be more likely to become a

946
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:56,640
little bit not as passionate
about or not understand it.

947
00:53:56,720 --> 00:54:01,520
And that's one thing actually,
Doug Durin is a cool thing that

948
00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:08,280
he's bringing to share the land,
increasing access to that type

949
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:12,200
of environment.
And I just wonder how that plays

950
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:15,800
a part in it because like, if I
forecast the trajectory of

951
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:19,240
someone that's going to start
hunting Big woods deer in

952
00:54:19,240 --> 00:54:22,000
northern Wisconsin and that's
their first experience of how

953
00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:25,320
their hunt goes.
And then maybe someone has

954
00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:28,840
another experience, maybe
through something like Doug's

955
00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:32,920
Share the land where, you know,
you pitch it, you pitch in on

956
00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:35,400
somebody's property and do some
work for a little while.

957
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:40,320
And what do you know, you have
access to some farmland of where

958
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:44,080
the deer herd is different.
Your expectations of a hunter

959
00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:46,720
are dramatically different.
Where you can go out and say,

960
00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:48,440
I'll probably see 10 deer
tonight.

961
00:54:48,720 --> 00:54:51,600
Is it going to be the the 10
deer that I want to see as

962
00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:54,280
opposed to like I'm going to
trounce through a couple miles

963
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:57,360
of big woods, try to find some
sign and I might get on one

964
00:54:57,360 --> 00:55:00,000
today.
Two different experiences.

965
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:04,560
Access is a lot easier in the
big woods in Wisconsin than it

966
00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:08,320
is to farm country.
And where there is public access

967
00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:10,360
in that country, it's usually a
little bit more heavily

968
00:55:10,360 --> 00:55:14,160
pressured, which brings in the
the other part of that

969
00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:17,840
conversation of I think some
people are timid to even go on

970
00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:23,000
public land because of pressure.
Other experiences with hunters,

971
00:55:23,240 --> 00:55:26,160
people like to think that, you
know, public land means

972
00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:28,880
different things, like this is
my little section of public

973
00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:30,960
land.
So how does access play into

974
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:34,480
that conversation about
increasing and decreasing hunter

975
00:55:34,480 --> 00:55:37,560
numbers and the trajectory we're
on, do you think?

976
00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:43,360
It, it plays a big role in as
much as in past surveys the, the

977
00:55:43,360 --> 00:55:47,120
agency has done again with the
social dimensions and, and

978
00:55:47,120 --> 00:55:50,360
actually interviewing people
that we see in their, in their

979
00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:53,240
license purchasing records, you
know, that they don't anymore.

980
00:55:53,240 --> 00:55:57,640
And follow up, well, why access
comes up, you know, you know,

981
00:55:57,640 --> 00:56:02,120
pretty high on that list.
And so, yeah, some of this

982
00:56:02,120 --> 00:56:05,240
transition that that happened, I
mentioned earlier in over the

983
00:56:05,240 --> 00:56:08,920
decades that that we saw a
pretty big shift in the 1990s.

984
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:14,960
And, and what happened in the
1990s was this combination of we

985
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:19,080
had this real big boom in the
deer population again, due to

986
00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:23,120
factors that we didn't create.
We were just the benefactors of

987
00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:28,560
it, but we saw this, this really
growing deer population and

988
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:33,440
really growing interest along
with it, which was great and

989
00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:40,000
growing participation that that
was wonderful from the, but even

990
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:41,880
back then, I can find plenty of
people that were not

991
00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:45,920
experiencing that, you know,
and, but what happened in the

992
00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:49,400
90s was the combination of that
really, you know, growing deer

993
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:55,600
population, growing interest in
deer hunting that expanded

994
00:56:55,800 --> 00:57:00,200
during that time outside of the
traditional firearm deer season.

995
00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:02,280
We really saw that growth going
on too.

996
00:57:02,600 --> 00:57:06,920
We also had a really booming
economy that put a lot of people

997
00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:10,800
in the position to say, I really
am into this and I want to

998
00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:12,960
secure my own little piece of
heaven.

999
00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:16,360
And we saw a tremendous amount
of land transfer happen in the

1000
00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:20,920
90s of what was the, the idle,
unproductive agricultural land

1001
00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:24,280
became highly sought after and
valued recreational land.

1002
00:57:24,640 --> 00:57:29,680
And so that one of those shifts
again, every there's all kinds

1003
00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:31,280
of situations that wouldn't fit
this model.

1004
00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:36,120
But what in general, what we saw
was a lot of farmland, deer

1005
00:57:36,120 --> 00:57:38,880
cover that had again, had
experienced this tremendous

1006
00:57:38,880 --> 00:57:44,440
growth in the 80s and 90s that,
you know, used to be accessed by

1007
00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:48,720
1220 people and they would drive
it on after opening day would

1008
00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:53,000
get pushed multiple times.
Now it's owned by a couple of

1009
00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:55,320
guys that are trying to create a
different experience.

1010
00:57:55,600 --> 00:57:59,640
And that chunk of land that used
to facilitate, you know, a dozen

1011
00:57:59,640 --> 00:58:02,520
people, you know, now maybe
facilitates for people or

1012
00:58:02,520 --> 00:58:04,400
something of that nature.
And the, and the collective

1013
00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:10,040
effect of that really shifted
again, access to the, the, you

1014
00:58:10,200 --> 00:58:13,400
know, what would be considered
the optimal places again,

1015
00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:16,520
especially in the farmland.
Going back to that, the history

1016
00:58:16,520 --> 00:58:20,000
of, you know, when the baby
boomers were kids and they were

1017
00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:22,360
coming into deer hunting and
they just followed their dads

1018
00:58:22,360 --> 00:58:26,240
and grandpas and uncles.
And in that era, the deer were

1019
00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:28,400
on the pump on these big blocks
of public land.

1020
00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:33,000
That's where you went to go deer
hunting because it wasn't very

1021
00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:36,600
good in farmland in the 60s.
And heck, in the 50s, it was

1022
00:58:36,600 --> 00:58:39,320
closed in, in a lot of the
southern half of the state and

1023
00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:42,320
went to alternate years and
stuff like that.

1024
00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:46,680
And so that that idea of we went
to the big black public lands

1025
00:58:46,680 --> 00:58:49,080
and industrial forest lands and
play, you know, that's where the

1026
00:58:49,080 --> 00:58:51,040
deer hunting happened.
That was very true in that

1027
00:58:51,040 --> 00:58:53,200
period of time.
But then as that, that also was

1028
00:58:53,200 --> 00:58:55,360
shifting because in the
nineties, 80s and 90s, it

1029
00:58:55,360 --> 00:58:58,840
started really getting good in,
in the other landscapes.

1030
00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:05,120
And so we saw this big shift of
of opportunity and, and the deer

1031
00:59:05,120 --> 00:59:08,680
population itself flourishing on
on the landscape that was more

1032
00:59:08,680 --> 00:59:13,400
dominated by by private land.
And as again, things out of our

1033
00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:16,040
control in terms of recreation
and deer hunting.

1034
00:59:16,320 --> 00:59:20,680
Think of this, how agricultural
everything in Wisconsin has gone

1035
00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:24,280
through dramatic changes and,
and parts of that, you know,

1036
00:59:24,320 --> 00:59:28,280
include land ownership, you
know, the parcelization off of

1037
00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:32,200
the non productive lands for
recreational properties and then

1038
00:59:32,240 --> 00:59:35,200
the consolidation of productive
land in the bigger, you know,

1039
00:59:35,200 --> 00:59:38,520
corporate operations.
That all has an impact on access

1040
00:59:38,520 --> 00:59:41,720
to those properties.
That has changed a lot over

1041
00:59:41,720 --> 00:59:44,200
time.
And so as you those two

1042
00:59:44,200 --> 00:59:47,160
scenarios you were describing
and and I live in both of them

1043
00:59:47,640 --> 00:59:51,280
where I I hunt in the farmland.
That's where I live.

1044
00:59:51,480 --> 00:59:55,640
It's convenient, it's easy.
I can go there with a reasonable

1045
00:59:55,640 --> 00:59:59,880
expectation that I'm going to
see Dear I.

1046
01:00:00,560 --> 01:00:05,880
Relish my northern forest
experience because, you know,

1047
01:00:05,960 --> 01:00:10,120
seeing a deer and getting a deer
is a thrill, you know, in the

1048
01:00:10,120 --> 01:00:14,960
north and as A and I, and again,
I, it's easy for me to say, oh,

1049
01:00:15,000 --> 01:00:18,200
and if I don't have, if I don't
see deer, I don't get a deer up

1050
01:00:18,200 --> 01:00:20,400
north.
So be it because I feel pretty

1051
01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:22,520
good that I'm going to have that
chance, you know, later in the

1052
01:00:22,520 --> 01:00:26,040
season when I go back home.
But for the folks that live and

1053
01:00:26,040 --> 01:00:31,040
breathe the Northern forest
experience and experienced that,

1054
01:00:31,200 --> 01:00:35,680
that boom, the bubble in the 90s
and early 2000s, which was a

1055
01:00:35,680 --> 01:00:39,840
very specific small period of
time, but became the new high

1056
01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:42,680
watermark, of course, right?
And everybody that's still

1057
01:00:42,680 --> 01:00:46,120
around remembers that.
And understandably what, how do

1058
01:00:46,120 --> 01:00:48,880
we get back to that?
And that's where, if you

1059
01:00:48,880 --> 01:00:52,600
understand that how we got there
in the 1st place was pretty

1060
01:00:52,600 --> 01:00:57,760
circumstantial and it was a
window of time that existed.

1061
01:00:57,840 --> 01:01:00,640
And it's like, be grateful you
were there to experience it.

1062
01:01:01,080 --> 01:01:03,760
But the arrows that were
pointing towards making that

1063
01:01:03,760 --> 01:01:07,000
happen aren't pointed in that
direction anymore for a number

1064
01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:11,240
of different reasons.
And so the, the objective to say

1065
01:01:11,240 --> 01:01:14,560
what can we do to get back to
the way things were 20 years ago

1066
01:01:14,560 --> 01:01:18,520
up north is unfortunately, I
think fraught with frustration

1067
01:01:18,520 --> 01:01:21,680
because it's just the powers
that made that happen.

1068
01:01:21,680 --> 01:01:23,920
Don't you know, aren't lined up
that way right now.

1069
01:01:23,920 --> 01:01:25,280
And so.
What were some of those?

1070
01:01:25,280 --> 01:01:27,360
What were some of those that
made that boom?

1071
01:01:28,160 --> 01:01:33,440
Well, it was the combination of,
of prior decades of land use

1072
01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:38,520
again, the, the forestry
strategies, you know, really you

1073
01:01:38,520 --> 01:01:40,840
have to go all the way back to
the late 1800s and, and the

1074
01:01:40,840 --> 01:01:44,240
great, you know, Piner reef
harvest days where they slicked

1075
01:01:44,240 --> 01:01:47,160
off the North, you know, and
that happened in a pretty short

1076
01:01:47,160 --> 01:01:50,400
window of time where the lumber
barons just exploited the heck

1077
01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:53,040
out of and people would say just
devastated, you know, that

1078
01:01:53,040 --> 01:01:56,520
landscape.
But those landscapes are

1079
01:01:56,520 --> 01:02:00,840
resilient if given the chance.
And So what it what you had was

1080
01:02:00,840 --> 01:02:04,760
the major clearing, you know,
from the late 1800s to, you

1081
01:02:04,960 --> 01:02:09,600
know, 19101920.
And then as that fizzled or Ant

1082
01:02:09,600 --> 01:02:12,360
came to an end, which it was,
was going to that was followed

1083
01:02:12,360 --> 01:02:15,240
by the 30s, which was the
drought, you know, nationally

1084
01:02:15,240 --> 01:02:17,520
every year about the Dust Bowl
days and all that type of stuff.

1085
01:02:17,840 --> 01:02:21,600
So you had all of that slash
leftover from the timber stuff.

1086
01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:24,880
And so it was just wildfires
that just kept that landscape

1087
01:02:24,960 --> 01:02:29,360
pretty barren.
And then you get to the post

1088
01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:32,840
World War 2 and the combination
of all right, that that drought

1089
01:02:32,840 --> 01:02:38,760
cycles over and the development
of wildfire control that the

1090
01:02:38,760 --> 01:02:42,560
DNR, you know, developed with
forestry suppressing wildfire

1091
01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:46,360
boom that creates this window
for that landscape to flush up

1092
01:02:46,360 --> 01:02:49,680
and recover with young growth.
And, and have that all not

1093
01:02:49,680 --> 01:02:52,440
played out.
There never would have been this

1094
01:02:52,440 --> 01:02:55,160
heritage of the great going deer
hunting up north.

1095
01:02:55,160 --> 01:02:57,640
You know, it all just happened
because of those things.

1096
01:02:57,880 --> 01:03:01,800
And then it probably would have
fizzled out or, or faded

1097
01:03:02,400 --> 01:03:07,000
earlier.
But then the, the paper mill

1098
01:03:07,000 --> 01:03:11,360
industry kept that going because
paper mills demand for a

1099
01:03:11,360 --> 01:03:15,360
hardwood pulp, you know, to make
paper, you know, create a deer

1100
01:03:15,360 --> 01:03:16,680
habitat.
And so that's where the

1101
01:03:16,680 --> 01:03:20,440
industrial forests of central
Wisconsin and end up north.

1102
01:03:20,800 --> 01:03:23,520
You know, again, it wasn't done
for deer and to create deer

1103
01:03:23,520 --> 01:03:25,520
habitat.
We were just the benefactors of

1104
01:03:25,520 --> 01:03:29,000
it because they were regularly
going back in and disturbing

1105
01:03:29,000 --> 01:03:32,320
those areas and, and, and, and
managing those forests for, for

1106
01:03:32,440 --> 01:03:36,320
early age stuff that beer and
grouse and those kind of things

1107
01:03:36,360 --> 01:03:41,960
like, like, and then so, you
know, volume of paper mill pulp

1108
01:03:42,240 --> 01:03:44,480
consumption kind of peaked in
the 1980s.

1109
01:03:44,960 --> 01:03:47,760
And as we've seen, you know, how
this has changed over the last

1110
01:03:47,760 --> 01:03:51,680
decades, you know, paper mills,
their markets change, the

1111
01:03:51,680 --> 01:03:54,000
demands have changed, bunch of
paper mills have closed.

1112
01:03:54,480 --> 01:03:57,840
And so those lands aren't being
disturbed at the same level.

1113
01:03:57,840 --> 01:03:59,200
They still are.
And a lot of people will say,

1114
01:03:59,200 --> 01:04:01,320
oh, I've seen plenty of clear
cutting going on.

1115
01:04:01,320 --> 01:04:04,480
And yes, it, it is happening
thankfully, but not at the

1116
01:04:04,480 --> 01:04:07,200
scale, you know, that it was
happening in the 70s and the and

1117
01:04:07,200 --> 01:04:11,800
the 80s.
And then what sustained this

1118
01:04:11,800 --> 01:04:15,520
even a little bit longer was the
mild winters.

1119
01:04:15,520 --> 01:04:18,280
That's really started in the mid
late 80s.

1120
01:04:18,480 --> 01:04:20,880
And we had mild winter after
mild winter after mild winter,

1121
01:04:21,080 --> 01:04:24,200
which when it really comes down
to it in the northern part of

1122
01:04:24,200 --> 01:04:27,040
Wisconsin and the same thing
from Minnesota and and Michigan,

1123
01:04:27,800 --> 01:04:30,600
you know, winter is the is the
final deciding common

1124
01:04:30,600 --> 01:04:33,480
denominator.
And so that period of time in

1125
01:04:33,480 --> 01:04:36,200
the late 80s and early 90s, we
had a couple severe winters

1126
01:04:36,200 --> 01:04:38,640
sprinkled in there, similar to
what we do now.

1127
01:04:38,640 --> 01:04:40,960
We have more mild winters than
severe winters.

1128
01:04:41,320 --> 01:04:46,240
But that situation in the late
80s, early 90s was really led to

1129
01:04:46,240 --> 01:04:49,720
that, you know, the deer to
population just Aldo Leopold

1130
01:04:49,720 --> 01:04:52,480
would have described it as an
eruption, you know, and he saw

1131
01:04:52,480 --> 01:04:56,800
those play out in the 1920s and
30s, you know, in the far West

1132
01:04:56,800 --> 01:05:00,440
when he was down in the
Southwest states in Arizona and

1133
01:05:00,440 --> 01:05:04,840
New Mexico and in the landscape,
the things that happened there.

1134
01:05:05,080 --> 01:05:09,440
And and it ties back to his
experience with objective of

1135
01:05:09,440 --> 01:05:13,560
predator eradication in the
objective of enhancing game

1136
01:05:13,560 --> 01:05:16,440
populations, which that's a
whole nother conversation of the

1137
01:05:16,440 --> 01:05:18,680
role.
And that's where his epiphany

1138
01:05:18,680 --> 01:05:22,920
came to the the thought of if we
got rid of the predators, that's

1139
01:05:22,920 --> 01:05:24,840
great for us, great for the deer
and great for us.

1140
01:05:25,120 --> 01:05:27,440
And that was true only to a
certain extent until the

1141
01:05:27,440 --> 01:05:30,840
population of deer it with
without having that, that

1142
01:05:30,840 --> 01:05:33,840
controlling factor, you know, in
his his description, what he

1143
01:05:33,840 --> 01:05:36,800
would call was an eruption.
And then he came to Wisconsin

1144
01:05:36,800 --> 01:05:40,000
and he saw that playing out in
northern Wisconsin, you know,

1145
01:05:40,000 --> 01:05:43,520
back in the 40s.
But then we experienced it again

1146
01:05:43,680 --> 01:05:47,960
in really in the 90s, late in
the 80s, early 90s and and that

1147
01:05:47,960 --> 01:05:50,840
carried on through, you know, in
the early 2000s.

1148
01:05:51,080 --> 01:05:53,880
And again, from a deer
management perspective, in, in

1149
01:05:54,000 --> 01:05:56,520
the lessons that Elder Leopold
taught us, you know, we were

1150
01:05:56,520 --> 01:06:01,000
coming at it with a we we need
to reduce the deer population

1151
01:06:01,000 --> 01:06:04,560
purposefully or it's going to
happen naturally and it's going

1152
01:06:04,560 --> 01:06:07,360
to be uglier, you know, if it
happens naturally or than if we

1153
01:06:07,360 --> 01:06:09,400
can kind of mitigate it and and
mediate it.

1154
01:06:09,600 --> 01:06:11,800
And that's where we would get
into the battle between US and

1155
01:06:11,800 --> 01:06:14,400
the hunters of we think you
should take more antlerless

1156
01:06:14,400 --> 01:06:16,840
deer.
And they're understandably would

1157
01:06:16,840 --> 01:06:19,960
be like, well, no, that seems
like it would be a, you know,

1158
01:06:19,960 --> 01:06:22,560
defeat, you know, be a negative
on on our future.

1159
01:06:22,560 --> 01:06:26,160
And, you know, we've always, you
know, the mantra within the

1160
01:06:26,160 --> 01:06:29,080
wildlife management community
for again, going all the way

1161
01:06:29,080 --> 01:06:32,400
back to Leipold's time was, you
know, but much as you'd like to,

1162
01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:34,400
you cannot stockpile deer on the
landscape.

1163
01:06:35,040 --> 01:06:40,160
And, and the, the, the challenge
up north is it's a bit of a roll

1164
01:06:40,160 --> 01:06:44,480
of the dice or that you don't
know if the upcoming winter is

1165
01:06:44,480 --> 01:06:49,160
going to be hard on them or not.
And So what you do in the fall

1166
01:06:49,160 --> 01:06:52,320
during the hunting season
leading up to that, you know,

1167
01:06:53,040 --> 01:06:57,200
you know, there's this, it's not
necessarily intuitive to say if

1168
01:06:57,360 --> 01:06:59,920
you knew you're going to have a
hard winter, the best thing you

1169
01:06:59,920 --> 01:07:02,400
could deer do for that deer
population is harvest more of

1170
01:07:02,400 --> 01:07:05,880
them in the fall so that there
was fewer mouths to feed as they

1171
01:07:05,880 --> 01:07:07,760
got through the winter.
And they would be in better

1172
01:07:07,760 --> 01:07:09,520
condition, you know, come
spring.

1173
01:07:09,520 --> 01:07:11,760
And then because of that,
they'll be more productive when

1174
01:07:11,760 --> 01:07:14,920
it comes to fawning season as
opposed to sending too much, too

1175
01:07:14,920 --> 01:07:17,800
many of them into that winter.
You're going to lose a bunch

1176
01:07:17,800 --> 01:07:20,520
anyhow for other reasons and
they're not going to be in your

1177
01:07:20,520 --> 01:07:22,800
freezer.
And the ones that do survive are

1178
01:07:22,800 --> 01:07:26,400
going to be in poorer condition.
And, you know, that makes sense

1179
01:07:26,400 --> 01:07:29,760
biologically, but from the human
nature side of it, it's just

1180
01:07:29,760 --> 01:07:34,440
like it's hard to reconcile that
idea of if I'm killing them and

1181
01:07:34,440 --> 01:07:38,960
now instead of saving them to
help them get through again,

1182
01:07:39,000 --> 01:07:42,000
just.
It's a really important but, but

1183
01:07:42,000 --> 01:07:44,200
it's a conversation we've been
having for 100 years.

1184
01:07:44,560 --> 01:07:46,240
Yeah.
And we'll probably continue to

1185
01:07:46,240 --> 01:07:46,760
have.
Yeah.

1186
01:07:46,840 --> 01:07:48,520
For sure.
And I think that opens up the

1187
01:07:48,520 --> 01:07:53,440
door to the next piece of that
of what could be that next scale

1188
01:07:53,440 --> 01:07:58,040
tipping thing or you know, deer
harvest numbers versus health.

1189
01:07:58,040 --> 01:08:00,720
And that's, I mean, the
impending or not even impending

1190
01:08:00,720 --> 01:08:04,280
the current state of CWD in the
state.

1191
01:08:05,040 --> 01:08:09,320
I mean, depending how that
evolves.

1192
01:08:09,680 --> 01:08:11,840
I'm really excited to hear your
thoughts about it.

1193
01:08:12,400 --> 01:08:20,160
But the North is set up to
better handle the spread of CWD

1194
01:08:20,600 --> 01:08:24,319
then what right now would most
would consider the ideal

1195
01:08:24,319 --> 01:08:26,279
scenario of like Southwest
Wisconsin.

1196
01:08:26,439 --> 01:08:32,160
I mean, we, it's hard to
forecast where that's going to

1197
01:08:32,160 --> 01:08:33,520
go.
So I'm at I love, I'd love to

1198
01:08:33,520 --> 01:08:36,840
hear your thoughts.
What like the north is set up

1199
01:08:36,840 --> 01:08:39,399
better for that?
I I doubt the scales completely

1200
01:08:39,399 --> 01:08:45,200
invert or whatever, but how how
is that's what's the current

1201
01:08:45,200 --> 01:08:47,479
state of that spread than your
view?

1202
01:08:47,720 --> 01:08:53,439
And how is that going to affect
the deer population and deer

1203
01:08:53,439 --> 01:08:56,319
management in the next, you
know, 10 to 20 years?

1204
01:08:56,920 --> 01:08:58,200
Yeah.
No, that you're right.

1205
01:08:58,200 --> 01:09:01,840
That's a very important question
and it is very challenging and

1206
01:09:01,840 --> 01:09:05,560
and in terms of that forecast of
how is it going to play out,

1207
01:09:06,720 --> 01:09:12,680
there are again variables that
are embedded in the landscape

1208
01:09:12,720 --> 01:09:18,399
and land cover and distribution
of of habitats that leads to

1209
01:09:18,399 --> 01:09:20,279
distribution and deer
differences.

1210
01:09:20,319 --> 01:09:23,279
And so yeah, what it really in
my mind what it come does come

1211
01:09:23,279 --> 01:09:26,240
down to as would be the case
with any you know what kind of

1212
01:09:26,240 --> 01:09:32,840
disease management protocols or
mitigation is higher animal

1213
01:09:32,840 --> 01:09:38,720
densities lead to higher disease
spread and contracting etcetera.

1214
01:09:38,720 --> 01:09:42,720
And so the way we've kind of
described and tracked chronic

1215
01:09:42,720 --> 01:09:47,960
wasting disease in Wisconsin is
prevalence of the disease both

1216
01:09:48,920 --> 01:09:51,720
where it is, but then the
prevalence of the disease, in

1217
01:09:51,720 --> 01:09:54,840
other words, a proportion of the
population that has the disease.

1218
01:09:54,840 --> 01:09:58,200
And so some very important work
came out of that.

1219
01:09:58,400 --> 01:10:02,920
A long study in southwest
Wisconsin where the long and the

1220
01:10:02,920 --> 01:10:07,080
short of it is what they were
able to capture was what chronic

1221
01:10:07,080 --> 01:10:10,480
wasting disease does at the
population level, not just at

1222
01:10:10,480 --> 01:10:15,040
the individual animal level, is
shortens life spans based on

1223
01:10:15,040 --> 01:10:19,040
those animals that become
infected are are going to die

1224
01:10:19,040 --> 01:10:20,440
from it.
There's no two ways about it.

1225
01:10:20,440 --> 01:10:24,040
And So what you're talking about
is taking, you know, the adult

1226
01:10:24,040 --> 01:10:28,760
dole portion of the population
and saying how many of these

1227
01:10:28,760 --> 01:10:31,720
doves are going to live to be
two or three or four or five.

1228
01:10:32,000 --> 01:10:36,040
And in those peak production
years of, you know, 3456 years

1229
01:10:36,040 --> 01:10:38,800
old, fewer of them are going to
make it there.

1230
01:10:38,840 --> 01:10:42,280
And so at a certain point, and
it what's essentially, and it

1231
01:10:42,280 --> 01:10:45,040
wouldn't, it won't necessarily
look exactly the same in

1232
01:10:45,040 --> 01:10:47,520
different parts of Wisconsin
because as you were alluding to,

1233
01:10:47,760 --> 01:10:50,320
it may not play out this way in
northern Wisconsin because you

1234
01:10:50,320 --> 01:10:52,200
may never get to those deer
densities.

1235
01:10:53,080 --> 01:10:56,080
As much as people would like to
say I want more deer, I think

1236
01:10:56,080 --> 01:10:59,560
what you were staying is it, it
may indirectly benefit the the

1237
01:10:59,560 --> 01:11:02,640
north and other parts of the
state where it's like the deer

1238
01:11:02,640 --> 01:11:06,440
densities you have are are not
going to allow CWD to play out

1239
01:11:06,440 --> 01:11:10,320
the way we've seen it play out.
And that's why we see it

1240
01:11:10,320 --> 01:11:11,880
differently.
Alec and the Westerns, a lot of

1241
01:11:11,880 --> 01:11:13,120
people will talk about all
they've got.

1242
01:11:13,120 --> 01:11:17,440
They've had CWD since the 1960s
out West and and it hasn't had

1243
01:11:17,440 --> 01:11:20,920
an impact.
Well, it has, but you also are

1244
01:11:20,920 --> 01:11:24,640
talking about landscapes that
have, you know, 5 to 10 animals

1245
01:11:24,640 --> 01:11:27,880
per square mile.
They're, they're easier to find

1246
01:11:27,880 --> 01:11:29,640
and see because of the open
landscape.

1247
01:11:29,640 --> 01:11:32,400
And so people are, I can go out
there and see all kinds of MOL,

1248
01:11:32,400 --> 01:11:34,640
they're just more visible
because of that landscape.

1249
01:11:36,040 --> 01:11:39,200
But So what we saw down in that
area and, and what this research

1250
01:11:39,200 --> 01:11:43,840
has shown is that when, when the
adult doe population, it's a

1251
01:11:43,840 --> 01:11:50,160
certain level of prevalence that
you know, 2930% of them are, are

1252
01:11:50,360 --> 01:11:55,920
infected, that proportion of the
adult population dying due to

1253
01:11:55,920 --> 01:11:59,240
CWD will start having a negative
impact on the productivity of

1254
01:11:59,240 --> 01:12:01,720
the herd.
So when that hits that level,

1255
01:12:02,640 --> 01:12:05,400
you know, it's you're going to
start to see population decline,

1256
01:12:05,760 --> 01:12:10,160
which again, when this off
started 2224 years ago, I'm

1257
01:12:10,320 --> 01:12:14,200
going to do my math.
Some of the prognosticators then

1258
01:12:14,200 --> 01:12:17,080
that were, you know, animal
population specialists and of

1259
01:12:17,080 --> 01:12:20,080
course, just operating with
models, not knowing what might

1260
01:12:20,080 --> 01:12:22,560
have happened.
You know, I remember, you know,

1261
01:12:22,560 --> 01:12:25,960
back in 2000 and two, 2003, you
know, folks from the University

1262
01:12:25,960 --> 01:12:29,960
of Wisconsin saying it's going
to take 20 plus years for you to

1263
01:12:29,960 --> 01:12:33,480
actually see the effect of this
and bam, if that isn't exactly

1264
01:12:33,480 --> 01:12:37,880
what happened.
And so to the question of what

1265
01:12:37,880 --> 01:12:40,880
does it look like in in the
future, in the areas of the

1266
01:12:40,880 --> 01:12:46,440
state where it does have the
opportunity to develop that

1267
01:12:46,440 --> 01:12:50,640
level of prevalence, you're
going to see fewer and younger

1268
01:12:50,640 --> 01:12:54,840
animals on the landscape.
It's just going to be and then

1269
01:12:55,040 --> 01:12:57,880
as that happens, though, then
prevalence starts to drop.

1270
01:12:58,640 --> 01:13:01,720
And so you'll end up it TWD is
not going to cause the

1271
01:13:01,720 --> 01:13:03,720
eradication of deer on the
landscape.

1272
01:13:04,120 --> 01:13:07,400
It's, you know, Doug Dern and I
have talked about this with for

1273
01:13:07,400 --> 01:13:10,320
a number of years and, and some
people aren't old enough to get

1274
01:13:10,320 --> 01:13:15,440
their analogy, but I've, I liken
chronic wasting disease to be

1275
01:13:15,440 --> 01:13:19,240
the Dutch Elm disease of deer.
We still have Elm trees.

1276
01:13:20,280 --> 01:13:23,600
We just don't have as many and
they don't grow as old or as big

1277
01:13:23,720 --> 01:13:27,200
unless they're really isolated.
And there some, some of that,

1278
01:13:27,280 --> 01:13:30,000
you know, could be the impact
that we see, you know, on

1279
01:13:30,000 --> 01:13:31,640
chronic wasting disease on the
landscape.

1280
01:13:31,680 --> 01:13:35,480
And so we'll have a younger
population that's turning over

1281
01:13:35,480 --> 01:13:39,280
faster, which will be more like
the deer population we had in

1282
01:13:39,280 --> 01:13:42,640
the 1980s when we did it
intentionally.

1283
01:13:43,000 --> 01:13:47,120
And so the Dan Stormart, the
lead researcher on that project

1284
01:13:47,120 --> 01:13:50,640
is he summarized, you know, you
know, that aspect of, of the

1285
01:13:50,640 --> 01:13:51,840
research.
And there's been a bunch of

1286
01:13:51,840 --> 01:13:55,000
other really interesting spin
offs, but the, the, the, the

1287
01:13:55,000 --> 01:13:58,320
take away, you know, at least
for that landscape, not

1288
01:13:58,320 --> 01:14:02,200
necessarily transferable to
others, but it is that if you

1289
01:14:02,200 --> 01:14:04,600
don't manage your deer
population, CWD is going to

1290
01:14:04,600 --> 01:14:07,880
manage it for you.
And, and, and that's a, it falls

1291
01:14:07,880 --> 01:14:11,520
in line with the general
principles of, of any wildlife

1292
01:14:11,520 --> 01:14:15,560
population of, and that's where
we, we look at human harvest and

1293
01:14:15,560 --> 01:14:19,760
hunting and its role within the
bigger mortality picture of any

1294
01:14:19,760 --> 01:14:21,880
population.
The, our idea of wildlife

1295
01:14:21,880 --> 01:14:25,200
management or game management is
that you conduct your human

1296
01:14:25,200 --> 01:14:30,120
harvest within the realms of
that portion of the mortality of

1297
01:14:30,120 --> 01:14:31,680
that population.
That's sustainable.

1298
01:14:32,440 --> 01:14:34,960
And, and it's the same.
We could talk about this with

1299
01:14:34,960 --> 01:14:37,680
deer up north too.
It's like if you don't harvest

1300
01:14:37,680 --> 01:14:41,680
them through human harvest, that
mortality factor is going to be

1301
01:14:41,680 --> 01:14:44,080
there one way or the other.
It's just going to shift to

1302
01:14:44,080 --> 01:14:48,440
something else.
And, and in the end, a

1303
01:14:48,440 --> 01:14:53,240
population that is chronically
overly dense for the landscape,

1304
01:14:53,560 --> 01:14:56,240
it is typically disease.
That's going to be the, the, the

1305
01:14:57,000 --> 01:15:00,600
common factor, that's the, the,
the equalizer, I guess, and

1306
01:15:00,600 --> 01:15:03,520
whether it's, and there's a lot
of those scenarios that play out

1307
01:15:03,520 --> 01:15:06,720
with other species.
And so, yeah, again, it, to me,

1308
01:15:06,720 --> 01:15:08,200
it does come down.
And that's where here in

1309
01:15:08,200 --> 01:15:11,720
northeast Wisconsin, you know,
we can look to southwest

1310
01:15:11,720 --> 01:15:13,640
Wisconsin and go, is that our
future?

1311
01:15:13,880 --> 01:15:17,320
And, and is there something we
can do to have that not be our

1312
01:15:17,320 --> 01:15:20,200
future?
And unfortunately, the answer is

1313
01:15:20,640 --> 01:15:22,400
yes, reduce your deer
population.

1314
01:15:22,640 --> 01:15:24,800
But to the average Deer Hunter
that was faced with that 20

1315
01:15:24,800 --> 01:15:27,720
years ago, you know, there it
was like understandable.

1316
01:15:27,720 --> 01:15:30,960
Like you're telling me either I
reduce the deer population

1317
01:15:30,960 --> 01:15:33,360
intentionally or it's going to
be reduced to anyhow.

1318
01:15:33,960 --> 01:15:36,640
Why wouldn't I take my chances
and just see what happens and

1319
01:15:36,640 --> 01:15:40,240
not do it intentionally?
But usually the fallout from

1320
01:15:40,240 --> 01:15:43,920
letting it happen naturally, it
is a worse outcome than having

1321
01:15:43,920 --> 01:15:46,480
done it under, you know, against
the, the realm of, of

1322
01:15:46,480 --> 01:15:47,400
management.
So.

1323
01:15:47,560 --> 01:15:50,680
Yeah.
So whatever semblance of control

1324
01:15:50,680 --> 01:15:54,280
that we have, it loses all of it
because that happens.

1325
01:15:54,800 --> 01:15:58,440
Yeah, that's super interesting.
And back-to-back to Doug's

1326
01:15:58,440 --> 01:15:59,840
project, their share of the
land.

1327
01:16:00,480 --> 01:16:04,000
My the, the first thing I
thought of in that scenario.

1328
01:16:04,000 --> 01:16:08,520
And there's a lot of, there's a
lot of differing opinions on,

1329
01:16:10,120 --> 01:16:12,040
there's a word for it that's
escaping my mind right now.

1330
01:16:12,040 --> 01:16:16,160
But like large, you know, large
livestock operations and stuff

1331
01:16:16,160 --> 01:16:24,720
like that, that access where
there's a bunch of deer, like

1332
01:16:24,720 --> 01:16:29,000
there's big old farms throughout
the state that always have work

1333
01:16:29,000 --> 01:16:32,720
to be done.
And then that can like, it can

1334
01:16:32,720 --> 01:16:37,360
be this, you know, quadruple
edged sword of like access

1335
01:16:37,360 --> 01:16:41,200
happens and people who want to
get into hunting have a good

1336
01:16:41,200 --> 01:16:44,560
opportunities at deer.
We manage these populations in

1337
01:16:44,560 --> 01:16:50,280
the areas of of, you know,
livestock and agriculture that I

1338
01:16:50,280 --> 01:16:54,000
have a higher prevalence of CWD
or higher risk factor of CWD.

1339
01:16:54,520 --> 01:16:57,920
It seems like this not silver
bullet, but it seems like a good

1340
01:16:57,920 --> 01:17:00,720
answer that could solve a not
solve, but it could help

1341
01:17:00,720 --> 01:17:06,840
mitigate the results of a lot of
different problems if you know,

1342
01:17:06,960 --> 01:17:10,160
a certain bowling ball was
pushed in the right direction.

1343
01:17:10,240 --> 01:17:11,680
I don't know, that was just my
read on it.

1344
01:17:12,040 --> 01:17:15,640
So it's fascinating to hear all
that stuff, I thought.

1345
01:17:16,000 --> 01:17:18,840
But sticking on the CWD
conversation, one of the things

1346
01:17:18,840 --> 01:17:22,200
that I found interesting about
it is since I started hunting in

1347
01:17:22,200 --> 01:17:29,680
the mid 90s, like I remember the
CWD conversation actually being

1348
01:17:30,120 --> 01:17:34,160
larger than it is now.
And I think maybe if appetites

1349
01:17:34,160 --> 01:17:38,000
have been just satiated by it,
that that it's just like 20

1350
01:17:38,000 --> 01:17:41,160
years of talking about CWD.
Maybe people are just tired of

1351
01:17:41,160 --> 01:17:44,320
talking about it or something.
But as you said, it doesn't just

1352
01:17:45,000 --> 01:17:47,720
poof gone.
It's not just going to go away.

1353
01:17:48,360 --> 01:17:52,440
And it's interesting to me that
it seems like the conversation

1354
01:17:52,440 --> 01:17:55,520
is a bit leaner than it was at
one point.

1355
01:17:55,520 --> 01:18:00,440
Is that just my perception or is
that the reality of what we face

1356
01:18:00,440 --> 01:18:01,240
today?
Are there?

1357
01:18:01,520 --> 01:18:04,360
Is there less overall
conversation from the hunting

1358
01:18:04,360 --> 01:18:06,320
community about CWD in
Wisconsin?

1359
01:18:07,680 --> 01:18:11,240
I, I think that's probably
accurate in as much as there is

1360
01:18:11,240 --> 01:18:15,480
some degree of, you know, CWD
burnout of, well, you've been

1361
01:18:15,480 --> 01:18:18,040
talking about this now for 25
years.

1362
01:18:18,040 --> 01:18:20,880
And in, in many people's
situations, like I haven't

1363
01:18:20,880 --> 01:18:25,360
really seen anything different
yet because, you know, they're

1364
01:18:25,360 --> 01:18:28,360
not dealing with it.
And then in the area where they

1365
01:18:28,400 --> 01:18:33,080
are that that really strong
conversation that was happening

1366
01:18:33,080 --> 01:18:38,520
in the early years, you know,
did spin off of there was

1367
01:18:38,520 --> 01:18:41,760
recognized right out of the gate
that, hey, we maybe have a

1368
01:18:41,760 --> 01:18:46,240
chance to squash this out.
But the only and it's not like

1369
01:18:46,240 --> 01:18:49,240
it's gonna happen, but the only
chance to possibly do it is

1370
01:18:49,240 --> 01:18:51,600
gonna be pretty extreme and
pretty radical.

1371
01:18:52,160 --> 01:18:58,040
And we'll never know if that if
it would have been possible

1372
01:18:58,040 --> 01:19:01,960
because we, we did start down
that path and it quickly met

1373
01:19:01,960 --> 01:19:04,880
with a lot of opposition, you
know, which isn't a surprise.

1374
01:19:05,280 --> 01:19:07,400
And there's a lot of parallels
when you get into these

1375
01:19:07,400 --> 01:19:11,520
conversations of whether it's
the approach towards chronic

1376
01:19:11,520 --> 01:19:14,440
wasting disease.
We saw it play out with COVID

1377
01:19:14,440 --> 01:19:17,360
and vaccines, We see it play out
with climate change, all those

1378
01:19:17,360 --> 01:19:19,360
kind of things.
It's fraught with that.

1379
01:19:19,360 --> 01:19:22,520
Well, you're going to pick one
side or the other and, and then

1380
01:19:22,800 --> 01:19:25,280
then go there.
And, and so the, the, the

1381
01:19:25,280 --> 01:19:29,480
challenge we had with with CWD
fell right into that too.

1382
01:19:29,840 --> 01:19:33,360
And so we did get, you know,
pretty strong pushback.

1383
01:19:33,480 --> 01:19:37,160
You know, that again, it was
like the, the medicine feels

1384
01:19:37,160 --> 01:19:41,680
worse than the disease.
So let's just roll the dice and

1385
01:19:41,680 --> 01:19:45,960
see what happens as opposed to
you guys coming in and from

1386
01:19:45,960 --> 01:19:48,680
their perception was like
ruining deer hunting for the

1387
01:19:48,680 --> 01:19:51,600
next 10 to 20 years.
We don't know because you're

1388
01:19:51,600 --> 01:19:54,440
going to try to, you know, knock
the population back that far.

1389
01:19:55,720 --> 01:19:58,440
So there, there.
And there's a still a memory of

1390
01:19:58,440 --> 01:20:01,520
that, you know, 20 years later
that, you know, there was this

1391
01:20:01,520 --> 01:20:05,400
pretty radical approach, but we
were on the cutting edge then

1392
01:20:05,400 --> 01:20:08,200
and, and there was a lot of
unknowns and, and what was known

1393
01:20:08,200 --> 01:20:13,040
about the disease out West.
Frankly is what got us to just

1394
01:20:13,040 --> 01:20:16,560
start looking, you know, in the
1990s and it wasn't in Wisconsin

1395
01:20:16,560 --> 01:20:18,840
and the other States.
And, and it just so happened

1396
01:20:18,840 --> 01:20:23,080
that for factor again, factors
will never know why, you know,

1397
01:20:23,080 --> 01:20:26,520
we were the unfortunate ones
where things were set up.

1398
01:20:26,640 --> 01:20:30,440
And, and that there's probably
as we look back now and we see

1399
01:20:30,440 --> 01:20:34,640
how CWD spreads on the
landscape, incidentally, by

1400
01:20:34,880 --> 01:20:40,280
human activities that this was
probably going on well before we

1401
01:20:40,280 --> 01:20:44,120
knew it.
But the, the, so this goes back

1402
01:20:44,120 --> 01:20:48,200
to the whole awareness and
discussion of, of herd densities

1403
01:20:48,280 --> 01:20:53,760
and the, the, the analogy there
with, you know, CWD and we see

1404
01:20:53,760 --> 01:20:57,400
it now in the state where if you
think about a grass fire in the

1405
01:20:57,400 --> 01:21:00,160
leading edge of that fire, and
then there's always sparks.

1406
01:21:00,160 --> 01:21:02,520
And depending on the, you know,
sparks blowing out, landing

1407
01:21:02,520 --> 01:21:05,840
ahead of head of the fire and
depending on what that spark

1408
01:21:05,840 --> 01:21:08,800
lands on, you know, it may go
out or it may ignite.

1409
01:21:09,120 --> 01:21:12,040
And, and that's what really, you
know, in the big picture

1410
01:21:12,040 --> 01:21:15,920
happened in Wisconsin, you know,
a spark of CWD landed on 100

1411
01:21:15,920 --> 01:21:19,080
deer per square mile.
And it was just, you know, that

1412
01:21:19,080 --> 01:21:21,200
was a plate.
Where is some of those sparks in

1413
01:21:21,200 --> 01:21:23,040
other parts of the state, you
know, are landing.

1414
01:21:23,040 --> 01:21:25,600
And it's something that, you
know, it's less than that.

1415
01:21:26,000 --> 01:21:27,560
And there's a chance that spark
goes out.

1416
01:21:28,000 --> 01:21:30,640
And that's again comes to the
argument of you might be better

1417
01:21:30,640 --> 01:21:33,000
than going back to what you said
earlier about, Hey, you know,

1418
01:21:33,000 --> 01:21:37,480
I'm having 1015 deer per square
mile across the North.

1419
01:21:37,920 --> 01:21:41,000
You know you made decades from
now be awful glad that that was

1420
01:21:41,000 --> 01:21:44,400
the case when you see the
landscape of where CWD is and

1421
01:21:44,400 --> 01:21:46,720
isn't.
Yeah, could be fascinating to

1422
01:21:46,720 --> 01:21:48,480
see.
Like depending on it, it's hard

1423
01:21:48,480 --> 01:21:52,200
to prognosticate what will
happen, but maybe, you know,

1424
01:21:52,200 --> 01:21:56,280
right now it's, it's kind of,
you know, southwest is it?

1425
01:21:56,400 --> 01:21:59,000
You can be priced out of
paradise as a, as a hunter,

1426
01:21:59,000 --> 01:22:00,160
right?
Like, you know, there's all

1427
01:22:00,160 --> 01:22:02,320
these big bucks there.
The land prices are through the

1428
01:22:02,320 --> 01:22:04,280
roof.
Northern Wisconsin, you can

1429
01:22:04,280 --> 01:22:06,280
still get, you know, 1500 bucks
an acre.

1430
01:22:06,280 --> 01:22:09,360
You get a nice little chunk of
property 20 years from now.

1431
01:22:09,680 --> 01:22:11,200
You don't know what's going to
happen.

1432
01:22:11,200 --> 01:22:14,560
These things flip and it'll just
be interesting to see.

1433
01:22:14,560 --> 01:22:19,280
But I don't know that that
conversation is, is really

1434
01:22:19,280 --> 01:22:21,320
fascinating.
I'm going to close this curtain

1435
01:22:21,320 --> 01:22:23,240
a little bit so the sun doesn't.
Get in your eyes.

1436
01:22:23,320 --> 01:22:26,320
Oh, sure I was.
I was so into it that I wasn't

1437
01:22:26,320 --> 01:22:27,080
noticing.
But.

1438
01:22:28,000 --> 01:22:31,000
OK, cool.
That's the best part about

1439
01:22:31,000 --> 01:22:33,360
podcast, man.
You can't, you don't get up on

1440
01:22:33,360 --> 01:22:37,000
live TV and adjust the curtain.
But yeah, but I guess you do,

1441
01:22:38,000 --> 01:22:40,720
man.
So that's a lot about deer.

1442
01:22:40,720 --> 01:22:43,480
I figured we get down in the
rabbit hole for a while

1443
01:22:43,800 --> 01:22:44,960
something.
But you know, we're both

1444
01:22:44,960 --> 01:22:48,080
obviously passionate about and
it's fun to talk about, but it

1445
01:22:48,080 --> 01:22:50,760
matters a lot.
All those things that we talk

1446
01:22:50,760 --> 01:22:55,520
about matters a lot, but the
core of Hunter participation in

1447
01:22:55,520 --> 01:22:59,360
in conversation is or
conservation is just really

1448
01:23:00,160 --> 01:23:07,200
important, I think to
maintaining the, I don't know,

1449
01:23:07,200 --> 01:23:11,360
the piece of our culture that we
have it as it's it's really

1450
01:23:11,360 --> 01:23:14,120
important.
Yeah, Oh, it is for a number of

1451
01:23:14,120 --> 01:23:15,720
reasons.
As you brought up earlier, in

1452
01:23:15,720 --> 01:23:18,600
terms of it, it is the lion's
share of, of conservation

1453
01:23:18,600 --> 01:23:21,760
funding that effects and
benefits a lot more than deer.

1454
01:23:21,760 --> 01:23:24,640
I mean, it just that money goes
into the conservation fund that

1455
01:23:24,640 --> 01:23:28,720
gets used collectively by
wildlife and law enforcement and

1456
01:23:28,720 --> 01:23:31,280
the department's, you know,
frontline staff, you know, for,

1457
01:23:31,560 --> 01:23:34,840
you know, public information.
And then, you know, deer are

1458
01:23:34,840 --> 01:23:37,480
carrying a lot of water for a
lot of other species that

1459
01:23:37,480 --> 01:23:40,400
benefit from, you know, the, the
funding mechanism that's

1460
01:23:40,400 --> 01:23:42,680
generated there.
But then again, the non hunting

1461
01:23:42,680 --> 01:23:46,640
community, you know, indirectly
benefits a lot from deer

1462
01:23:46,640 --> 01:23:49,280
hunting, not only from the
conservation work that happens,

1463
01:23:49,280 --> 01:23:52,880
but to the degree that they can,
you know, manage a deer

1464
01:23:52,880 --> 01:23:56,080
population that may, you know,
limit crop damage or may limit,

1465
01:23:56,240 --> 01:24:00,120
you know, car accidents or, or
other issues that other impacts

1466
01:24:00,120 --> 01:24:02,600
that people feel.
And one could make the argument

1467
01:24:02,600 --> 01:24:05,840
that, you know, we could do
better in those realms for, you

1468
01:24:05,840 --> 01:24:08,760
know, for that population.
But going back to your the

1469
01:24:08,760 --> 01:24:13,320
access question, there's
especially in southeast

1470
01:24:13,320 --> 01:24:18,000
Wisconsin, there's a lot of deer
causing a lot of issues for

1471
01:24:18,000 --> 01:24:20,920
people, but they're living in
areas that aren't accessible to

1472
01:24:20,920 --> 01:24:23,920
hunters period.
And and not that that's it has

1473
01:24:23,920 --> 01:24:26,920
to be that way, but there's
understandably with that level

1474
01:24:26,920 --> 01:24:31,320
of of residential development on
the landscape, a lack of

1475
01:24:31,720 --> 01:24:33,880
comfort, you know, with firearm
deer hunting.

1476
01:24:34,080 --> 01:24:37,760
And that's why we see counties
like basically all the counties

1477
01:24:37,760 --> 01:24:40,560
in the greater Milwaukee area
and now are harvesting more deer

1478
01:24:40,560 --> 01:24:43,000
with archery equipment than they
are with firearm equipment.

1479
01:24:43,600 --> 01:24:49,080
But that, that understandable
uncomfort with firearm hunting

1480
01:24:49,080 --> 01:24:54,520
and, and, and deer harvest is a
challenge because that is by far

1481
01:24:54,520 --> 01:25:00,040
the more efficient way to
harvest a deer and, and can be

1482
01:25:00,040 --> 01:25:04,280
done effectively and safely in
amongst residential

1483
01:25:04,280 --> 01:25:06,480
developments.
And and again, that's like

1484
01:25:06,520 --> 01:25:09,480
something we're seeing playing
out more in Eastern states where

1485
01:25:09,480 --> 01:25:11,400
they where they are
demonstrating that.

1486
01:25:12,680 --> 01:25:14,560
Isn't that something that
happens in Illinois a lot like a

1487
01:25:14,560 --> 01:25:16,920
shotgun only?
Well, some of the states, yeah,

1488
01:25:16,920 --> 01:25:20,040
still do have that.
We had that in Wisconsin.

1489
01:25:20,040 --> 01:25:22,240
I forget how many years ago.
It's been long enough, I forget,

1490
01:25:22,240 --> 01:25:25,640
but we were shotgun only in the
southern half of the state under

1491
01:25:25,640 --> 01:25:30,040
the premise that high-powered
rifles, you know, because a

1492
01:25:30,040 --> 01:25:36,080
bullet can travel unimpeded much
further and posed a bigger risk.

1493
01:25:36,360 --> 01:25:40,080
But when you the practical
approach of how those weapons

1494
01:25:40,080 --> 01:25:42,880
are used and when and what the
scenarios are, it's

1495
01:25:42,920 --> 01:25:47,040
extraordinarily rare for that
weapon to be discharged in a

1496
01:25:47,040 --> 01:25:50,560
manner that that bullets going
to go very far either way.

1497
01:25:50,560 --> 01:25:53,600
And so there was some research
actually in Pennsylvania decades

1498
01:25:53,600 --> 01:25:56,800
ago where they were already in
that situation of, hey, we got

1499
01:25:56,800 --> 01:25:59,800
to figure out how we're going to
manage these deer populations

1500
01:25:59,800 --> 01:26:03,040
that are exploding in and
amongst people in residential

1501
01:26:03,040 --> 01:26:06,440
areas and recognizing archery
hunt harvest probably just isn't

1502
01:26:06,440 --> 01:26:11,160
going to cut it or keep up.
So which firearms are the best

1503
01:26:11,160 --> 01:26:13,440
ones to be used?
And there's this, this

1504
01:26:13,480 --> 01:26:17,080
assumption that shotguns are
safer than rifles because in the

1505
01:26:17,320 --> 01:26:20,880
end, the bullet can't travel as
far and not as fast.

1506
01:26:21,160 --> 01:26:25,080
But in reality, when they looked
at the differences because of

1507
01:26:25,080 --> 01:26:29,760
Ballistics, because of the the
mass of the bullet, the size and

1508
01:26:29,760 --> 01:26:33,320
weight of it that comes out of a
shotgun, a slug versus a rifle

1509
01:26:33,320 --> 01:26:36,240
bullet.
Those shotgun slugs may be

1510
01:26:36,240 --> 01:26:41,040
traveling slower, but they are
much more able to, because of

1511
01:26:41,040 --> 01:26:45,120
their size, retain energy after
they hit something.

1512
01:26:46,040 --> 01:26:49,200
And whether that hit something
is passed through a deer passed

1513
01:26:49,200 --> 01:26:54,480
through a tree limb, counts off
the ground, they were more

1514
01:26:54,480 --> 01:26:58,600
likely to cause damage to
something else that it hits into

1515
01:26:58,680 --> 01:27:01,920
incidentally.
Whereas a rifle bullet, yeah, it

1516
01:27:01,920 --> 01:27:05,240
could, it's it could goes way
faster, it could go further.

1517
01:27:05,600 --> 01:27:08,880
But because of the size and
shape of that bullet, when it

1518
01:27:08,880 --> 01:27:10,480
hits something, it loses its
energy.

1519
01:27:10,960 --> 01:27:14,800
And so that concept right there
and that that realization is

1520
01:27:14,800 --> 01:27:19,120
what allowed Pennsylvania and
then Wisconsin to go, yeah,

1521
01:27:19,120 --> 01:27:22,880
maybe these the perception of
the shotgun only, you know, as

1522
01:27:22,920 --> 01:27:26,080
from a safety perspective is
maybe based on perceptions

1523
01:27:26,080 --> 01:27:28,160
again.
And so we went away from that

1524
01:27:28,160 --> 01:27:31,200
quite a while ago.
Minnesota just dropped their

1525
01:27:31,200 --> 01:27:35,120
shotgun only restrictions in in
a big chunk, if not all of the

1526
01:27:35,120 --> 01:27:36,920
southern half of the more open
country.

1527
01:27:36,920 --> 01:27:40,560
And, and, and so, and we've seen
some other different

1528
01:27:40,560 --> 01:27:42,840
developments in a few of the
other states like, you know,

1529
01:27:42,840 --> 01:27:45,880
straight wall cartridges.
But again, that's under the idea

1530
01:27:45,880 --> 01:27:51,280
that these firearms don't
discharge a bullet as fast that

1531
01:27:51,280 --> 01:27:54,200
would travel as far.
But it especially if you were to

1532
01:27:54,200 --> 01:27:57,040
put something in like it's
mandatory to shoot from an

1533
01:27:57,040 --> 01:28:00,000
elevated platform and you're
shooting down, you know, that

1534
01:28:00,000 --> 01:28:02,440
takes away, you know, almost
all.

1535
01:28:02,800 --> 01:28:05,640
And then you simply look at the
track record over the past, you

1536
01:28:05,640 --> 01:28:09,120
know, 20 years, 30 years,
because of the great work that's

1537
01:28:09,120 --> 01:28:11,360
been done in our hundred
education classes and with those

1538
01:28:11,360 --> 01:28:13,280
volunteers.
And we, of course, we track it

1539
01:28:13,600 --> 01:28:17,520
in terms of accidents related to
people, you know, injuries or

1540
01:28:17,520 --> 01:28:22,920
fatalities.
There's a lot of other things

1541
01:28:22,920 --> 01:28:26,280
that can happen with bullets,
you know, again, buildings being

1542
01:28:26,280 --> 01:28:27,920
struck or other things like
that.

1543
01:28:28,160 --> 01:28:30,880
And that's just the rate of that
stuff has gone way, way down.

1544
01:28:30,880 --> 01:28:32,680
And so that's that.
That's great.

1545
01:28:32,680 --> 01:28:35,280
And that's really one of the
positive things of development

1546
01:28:35,280 --> 01:28:39,760
in deer hunting that hopefully
would allow some people in parts

1547
01:28:39,760 --> 01:28:41,320
of the.
And if you look at just this

1548
01:28:41,320 --> 01:28:45,360
last gun season and we look at
the real productive counties

1549
01:28:45,360 --> 01:28:49,840
that were killing, you know, 456
deer per square mile.

1550
01:28:50,320 --> 01:28:53,440
And then you go down into the SE
counties that still have a whole

1551
01:28:53,440 --> 01:28:57,000
bunch of deer and they're
killing one to 1 1/2 deer per

1552
01:28:57,000 --> 01:28:58,920
square mile.
It's not because the deer aren't

1553
01:28:58,920 --> 01:29:00,560
there.
It's because the hunters can't

1554
01:29:00,560 --> 01:29:01,600
get out of.
Yeah.

1555
01:29:01,800 --> 01:29:04,640
So that's where the non hunting
community and land owners that

1556
01:29:04,640 --> 01:29:09,520
do recognize we got a deer
population issue here that maybe

1557
01:29:09,520 --> 01:29:12,440
they could, you know, embrace
the hunting community and

1558
01:29:12,440 --> 01:29:15,600
provide access in areas that
traditionally have been thought,

1559
01:29:15,600 --> 01:29:17,960
well, yeah, no, this is not a
place we don't want people

1560
01:29:17,960 --> 01:29:19,880
hunting here.
But then they come to the

1561
01:29:19,880 --> 01:29:22,640
government and going, what are
you going to do about these deer

1562
01:29:23,800 --> 01:29:27,600
at the cost of to the taxpayers
in general, you know, in a

1563
01:29:27,600 --> 01:29:30,040
different mechanism by by when
It could be like, well, maybe

1564
01:29:30,040 --> 01:29:32,600
there's a win win here where we
could maybe, you know, open up

1565
01:29:32,600 --> 01:29:34,920
some access.
And a lot of communities are

1566
01:29:34,920 --> 01:29:38,320
doing that within their green
spaces, you know, where they

1567
01:29:38,320 --> 01:29:40,640
think they can do so safely.
And we certainly see some

1568
01:29:41,320 --> 01:29:44,840
communities, you know, really
providing, you know, especially

1569
01:29:44,840 --> 01:29:47,800
with archery, because that's the
first step of comfort level.

1570
01:29:47,800 --> 01:29:51,560
But there's other places where
maybe we can open some of this

1571
01:29:51,560 --> 01:29:55,120
up to firearm harvest because
the alternative is we're going

1572
01:29:55,120 --> 01:29:59,040
to have to hire professional
contractors, you know, to come

1573
01:29:59,040 --> 01:30:00,680
in and do it.
Which is wild.

1574
01:30:01,120 --> 01:30:03,200
Yeah.
It makes me think you mentioned

1575
01:30:03,200 --> 01:30:05,280
southeast Wisconsin.
I won't say his name because I

1576
01:30:05,280 --> 01:30:07,280
asked him to be on the podcast,
but he doesn't want any more

1577
01:30:07,280 --> 01:30:10,440
exposure for obvious reasons.
So there's a guy down in

1578
01:30:10,440 --> 01:30:13,920
southeast Wisconsin that has
he's a photographer and a

1579
01:30:13,920 --> 01:30:16,920
videographer and he goes in and
gets these videos of these just

1580
01:30:16,920 --> 01:30:19,960
these massive bucks that he can
get super close to because

1581
01:30:19,960 --> 01:30:21,880
they're like little sanctuaries.
You know, they're in these

1582
01:30:21,880 --> 01:30:26,200
places that people can't hunt.
And like, I'm sure there are

1583
01:30:26,200 --> 01:30:29,800
just so many hunters that watch
his stuff and just drool over

1584
01:30:29,800 --> 01:30:32,760
the opportunity of these.
And, you know, say what you will

1585
01:30:32,760 --> 01:30:34,600
about it, it's it's a little
different thing.

1586
01:30:34,600 --> 01:30:37,280
It's not, it's certainly not
chasing a buck in the big woods

1587
01:30:37,280 --> 01:30:40,040
in northern Wisconsin that, you
know, it's a it's a whole

1588
01:30:40,040 --> 01:30:46,320
different ball game.
But still, those deer would be,

1589
01:30:46,320 --> 01:30:48,960
would benefit from being managed
by us.

1590
01:30:48,960 --> 01:30:51,800
I mean, I, I keep hearing your
message and it's so true that we

1591
01:30:51,800 --> 01:30:54,880
don't, we don't pave the way.
We're the guard whales of the

1592
01:30:54,880 --> 01:30:57,400
road.
But at the same time, I see that

1593
01:30:57,400 --> 01:30:59,360
guy stuff all the time.
And I'm like, man, there are

1594
01:30:59,560 --> 01:31:02,960
2000 hunters just looking at
this, just wanting to know where

1595
01:31:02,960 --> 01:31:03,920
he is.
And I think that's why he

1596
01:31:03,920 --> 01:31:05,200
doesn't want to be on the
podcast.

1597
01:31:05,200 --> 01:31:07,840
He doesn't like, he doesn't need
any more publicity.

1598
01:31:07,840 --> 01:31:12,480
You get videos of these.
But yeah, that's such a man.

1599
01:31:12,560 --> 01:31:19,200
I, I in some ways I envy and in
some ways I don't envy the role

1600
01:31:19,200 --> 01:31:22,280
you've had for the past five
years because from a problem

1601
01:31:22,280 --> 01:31:25,200
solving aspect, it's really fun
to think about this stuff and

1602
01:31:25,200 --> 01:31:27,640
what are the levers you can pull
and how can these go?

1603
01:31:28,240 --> 01:31:34,680
But on the flip side of the
coin, it's it's going back to

1604
01:31:34,680 --> 01:31:37,160
expectations.
You talked about earlier, having

1605
01:31:37,280 --> 01:31:41,160
the expectations of what can and
can't we impact and how what are

1606
01:31:41,160 --> 01:31:43,440
the guardrails that we can do
are fascinating.

1607
01:31:44,000 --> 01:31:46,120
So I guess maybe we'll and let's
end on this.

1608
01:31:46,960 --> 01:31:51,320
What is what's next for you?
You don't spend five years of

1609
01:31:51,320 --> 01:31:54,160
solving these problems and just
living, eating and breathing

1610
01:31:54,160 --> 01:31:57,280
this and like tomorrow be like,
OK, I'm going to take up

1611
01:31:57,400 --> 01:32:01,160
bowling.
You know, what's next for you As

1612
01:32:01,160 --> 01:32:04,080
you as you by the time this
episode drops, you'll be

1613
01:32:04,280 --> 01:32:06,800
officially retired and off the
payroll.

1614
01:32:06,800 --> 01:32:11,400
So what's next for you?
Yeah, well, I, I think it's, as

1615
01:32:11,400 --> 01:32:14,440
I get advice from a lot of my,
you know, already retired, you

1616
01:32:14,440 --> 01:32:15,960
know, colleagues.
It would say, you know, just

1617
01:32:16,240 --> 01:32:18,680
take a step back and reset
rewire.

1618
01:32:20,480 --> 01:32:25,280
But I, I definitely am still
really intrigued and compelled

1619
01:32:25,280 --> 01:32:28,320
about the challenges, you know,
that are faced in the things

1620
01:32:28,320 --> 01:32:32,720
that I've been exposed to.
And, and I really enjoy sharing

1621
01:32:32,720 --> 01:32:36,800
information not from a realm of
I'm smarter than you and I know

1622
01:32:36,800 --> 01:32:39,000
stuff you don't know.
And now I'm going to enlighten

1623
01:32:39,000 --> 01:32:42,640
you.
It's more of A and I, I want you

1624
01:32:42,640 --> 01:32:46,360
to understand this so you can
have a frame of mind that allows

1625
01:32:46,360 --> 01:32:49,760
you to embrace and enjoy your
experience within the realm of

1626
01:32:49,760 --> 01:32:54,560
the realities, as opposed to
going through this with this

1627
01:32:55,000 --> 01:33:01,560
frustration and and a sense of,
you know, that this is it's it's

1628
01:33:01,640 --> 01:33:06,440
bad or it's negative, but it's
based on presumptions.

1629
01:33:06,440 --> 01:33:09,840
Is that I know if we have
discussed this a little bit

1630
01:33:09,840 --> 01:33:12,160
differently and maybe it'll,
it'll just help people with a

1631
01:33:12,160 --> 01:33:15,600
little bit of a reset.
Again, both the hunting

1632
01:33:15,600 --> 01:33:18,080
community and the non hunting
community because yeah, there,

1633
01:33:18,080 --> 01:33:21,360
there there is this sense of,
well, this is always the way

1634
01:33:21,360 --> 01:33:24,520
it's been and this is the always
the way it will be or, or, or

1635
01:33:24,520 --> 01:33:27,360
should be.
And, you know, change is hard

1636
01:33:27,360 --> 01:33:32,920
for everybody, but I, you know,
to the degree I can like, you

1637
01:33:32,920 --> 01:33:36,440
know, help.
And so I guess the, the bottom

1638
01:33:36,440 --> 01:33:40,760
line, the answer is, is I've,
I've enjoyed communicating, say

1639
01:33:40,760 --> 01:33:43,560
the word, communicate, stumble
over that doesn't make sense.

1640
01:33:44,080 --> 01:33:48,120
That's not very good.
But conservation conversations,

1641
01:33:48,120 --> 01:33:52,520
you know, I just, you know, I'm
not done with doing that.

1642
01:33:53,240 --> 01:33:55,520
I just don't know necessarily
what that might look like in the

1643
01:33:55,520 --> 01:33:57,480
future, what the platform is.
And that's OK.

1644
01:33:57,480 --> 01:34:00,640
It's kind of exciting to to see
how that unfolds.

1645
01:34:00,920 --> 01:34:06,080
And so, yeah, I've one way or
the other in people that know me

1646
01:34:06,080 --> 01:34:07,760
well.
I think we'll hope that I

1647
01:34:07,760 --> 01:34:10,400
continue to find other venues.
Otherwise they're just going to

1648
01:34:10,400 --> 01:34:14,480
have to listen to me nauseam,
you know, overload on it.

1649
01:34:14,480 --> 01:34:17,760
So I got to find those outlets.
I feel that.

1650
01:34:17,920 --> 01:34:20,360
I feel that probably probably a
little bit more time in the

1651
01:34:20,360 --> 01:34:22,720
field do right.
Yeah, I will.

1652
01:34:22,960 --> 01:34:27,520
I have to admit, spring is a
busy time of year in this role.

1653
01:34:27,520 --> 01:34:30,840
So I'm looking forward to Turkey
hunting and steelhead fishing.

1654
01:34:30,880 --> 01:34:33,760
You know, without that sense of
I really should be doing this

1655
01:34:33,760 --> 01:34:36,400
instead.
And then, you know, the deer

1656
01:34:36,400 --> 01:34:39,280
camp that I have been privileged
to be part of, it's not mine,

1657
01:34:39,280 --> 01:34:42,440
but I'm invited.
And I, I hunt during the gun

1658
01:34:42,440 --> 01:34:46,680
season up in Vilas County and
it's like I don't have to go

1659
01:34:46,680 --> 01:34:49,280
home Sunday afternoon.
I'm going to spend a few more

1660
01:34:49,280 --> 01:34:51,960
days, you know, in the
Northwoods and, and having that

1661
01:34:51,960 --> 01:34:55,560
experience and hopefully the
better chances of tracking snow

1662
01:34:55,560 --> 01:34:59,000
on the landscape and, and, and
the space to go and get on a

1663
01:34:59,000 --> 01:35:01,680
deer track and follow it.
You know, which that's just an

1664
01:35:01,680 --> 01:35:05,080
experience that again and more
and more people are talking and

1665
01:35:05,080 --> 01:35:07,960
having those experiences talking
and sharing it, which I think is

1666
01:35:07,960 --> 01:35:11,760
going to, you know, when people
say how can we see a renaissance

1667
01:35:11,760 --> 01:35:15,280
in the North, it's not going to
be because of the deer

1668
01:35:15,280 --> 01:35:17,640
population doubled and
everyone's going to come back.

1669
01:35:17,920 --> 01:35:21,320
Because even if you double the
deer population in the north,

1670
01:35:21,320 --> 01:35:23,840
it's still half of what the deer
population is going to be in the

1671
01:35:23,840 --> 01:35:25,640
South.
So from that opportunity

1672
01:35:25,640 --> 01:35:27,360
standpoint of where am I going
to spend my time?

1673
01:35:27,360 --> 01:35:30,320
You're not going to necessarily
lure people back with volume of

1674
01:35:30,320 --> 01:35:32,200
deer.
You're going to lure them up

1675
01:35:32,200 --> 01:35:35,400
there with an experience that
they can't get, you know, on a,

1676
01:35:35,400 --> 01:35:38,400
on the, on the, on the southern
Wisconsin landscape.

1677
01:35:38,600 --> 01:35:41,240
Absolutely full circle moment.
The experience I was talking

1678
01:35:41,240 --> 01:35:45,280
about about why I do, why I go
outside anyway, like that's what

1679
01:35:45,280 --> 01:35:48,680
you can find in the, in the
northern Wisconsin.

1680
01:35:48,680 --> 01:35:51,800
You, I mean, you better have,
you better have your phone

1681
01:35:51,800 --> 01:35:55,880
charged and your, and your GPS
ready because you know, you can,

1682
01:35:55,880 --> 01:35:58,800
you can get some places where it
gets a little funky and you got

1683
01:35:58,800 --> 01:36:00,000
to make sure you can get home in
there.

1684
01:36:00,000 --> 01:36:03,680
And that that's a different
experience than it is walking

1685
01:36:03,680 --> 01:36:05,640
across the cornfield to the
tower blind.

1686
01:36:05,720 --> 01:36:08,920
And you know, it's and nothing
against either one.

1687
01:36:08,920 --> 01:36:11,560
It's just different.
And I think I completely agree

1688
01:36:11,560 --> 01:36:14,840
that that is, that's not lost up
north.

1689
01:36:14,840 --> 01:36:18,280
That's that's more alive than it
ever has been.

1690
01:36:18,680 --> 01:36:20,240
I, I do have the opportunity,
right?

1691
01:36:20,320 --> 01:36:22,760
You're exactly right.
And in those people are

1692
01:36:23,000 --> 01:36:25,600
interacting with me, but those
people aren't the ones that are

1693
01:36:25,720 --> 01:36:30,400
going to show up at at a, you
know, public meeting to express

1694
01:36:30,560 --> 01:36:32,440
their dissatisfaction with
things.

1695
01:36:32,600 --> 01:36:35,760
And they very quietly are just
like, I'm OK that other people

1696
01:36:35,760 --> 01:36:38,280
have this perception that it's
lousy up here.

1697
01:36:39,080 --> 01:36:41,880
I'm loving it.
But they're not going to be real

1698
01:36:41,880 --> 01:36:44,720
vocal about that.
You know, And again, some, some

1699
01:36:44,720 --> 01:36:48,760
people are, but and that's that
that space thing.

1700
01:36:48,760 --> 01:36:52,720
I mean, the, the public land
hunter that I talked to that is

1701
01:36:53,880 --> 01:36:55,840
I'd call them the successful
public land hunters.

1702
01:36:56,040 --> 01:36:57,760
The, the common denominators are
mobile.

1703
01:36:58,440 --> 01:36:59,960
Yeah.
It's the, it's like, Yep.

1704
01:36:59,960 --> 01:37:02,600
No, don't just keep doing the
same thing every year and, and

1705
01:37:02,800 --> 01:37:05,040
get in there.
Recognize that things change

1706
01:37:05,040 --> 01:37:06,920
from year to year.
The deer were over here last

1707
01:37:06,920 --> 01:37:09,360
year, but they're not this year.
If you go back there, cuz you

1708
01:37:09,360 --> 01:37:11,480
really like that spot.
I, I did that myself.

1709
01:37:11,480 --> 01:37:15,080
One of my other big changes now
that I got more time is scout

1710
01:37:15,080 --> 01:37:19,760
more find more options because
I, I fell into that same trap

1711
01:37:19,760 --> 01:37:21,960
where I had a spot.
I really liked it.

1712
01:37:21,960 --> 01:37:25,160
I found it.
I was successful there once and

1713
01:37:25,160 --> 01:37:26,840
then I just kept going back
there because it's going to

1714
01:37:26,840 --> 01:37:28,160
happen again.
It's going to happen again.

1715
01:37:28,160 --> 01:37:30,960
I know it isn't took about four
years of like moon doesn't seem

1716
01:37:30,960 --> 01:37:33,520
to be happening again.
It's time to do something

1717
01:37:33,520 --> 01:37:35,520
different.
That should be part of what

1718
01:37:35,520 --> 01:37:37,360
hunting is all about.
Absolutely.

1719
01:37:37,640 --> 01:37:39,640
Yeah, It was great chatting with
you, Jeff.

1720
01:37:39,760 --> 01:37:42,320
Yeah, I appreciate you coming.
In thanks for the opportunity.

1721
01:37:42,960 --> 01:37:46,240
I wish you the best of luck on
your next step and thanks for

1722
01:37:46,320 --> 01:37:51,560
thanks for five years of solid
work and, you know, helping us

1723
01:37:51,560 --> 01:37:59,120
to all hunters, helping us
navigate tumultuous territories

1724
01:37:59,120 --> 01:38:04,680
in a lot of different ways, from
public opinion to CWD herd

1725
01:38:04,680 --> 01:38:08,440
numbers, all of that stuff.
Just appreciate your time man.

1726
01:38:08,760 --> 01:38:11,320
Thanks, Brad.
I'm, I'm really, I feel grateful

1727
01:38:11,320 --> 01:38:14,840
that it, I'm at a point where it
is I, I candidly, when I took

1728
01:38:14,840 --> 01:38:17,440
the job five years ago, I was
like, this could end really

1729
01:38:17,440 --> 01:38:20,800
badly or could end, end end
well.

1730
01:38:20,800 --> 01:38:24,360
And I was like, it's 5050.
And again, just like we think

1731
01:38:24,360 --> 01:38:27,600
about deer, some of the factors
that could cause that are

1732
01:38:27,600 --> 01:38:30,880
outside of our new control, you
know, could have been no fault

1733
01:38:30,880 --> 01:38:33,760
of our own, but it's, you know,
political winds change or

1734
01:38:33,760 --> 01:38:37,400
something else happens.
And so that's where, you know, I

1735
01:38:37,400 --> 01:38:40,400
was in a kind of a position
where I, you know, I'm a little

1736
01:38:40,400 --> 01:38:43,920
more insulated from, hey, if
things don't go well, you know,

1737
01:38:43,920 --> 01:38:46,320
you know, I don't have 20 years
ahead of me yet that I got to

1738
01:38:46,320 --> 01:38:50,320
try to reinvent myself.
But so, yeah, no thanks.

1739
01:38:50,320 --> 01:38:52,680
I appreciate it.
I, I'm glad I was able to do

1740
01:38:52,680 --> 01:38:55,120
what I could.
And now I do have to reinvent

1741
01:38:55,120 --> 01:38:56,880
myself.
It'll be fun.

1742
01:38:56,920 --> 01:38:59,240
Anyhow, yeah, thanks, Jeff.
Yep, you bet, Brad.