Jane Whitney - Master Naturalist, "Failed" Retirement, and Curiosity - Ep. #10

0:17 I had no idea they were freshwater sponges. I I mean, there's just, I just didn't know. I think of sponges as saltwater, but there is a freshwater sponge. Really. Yeah. I don't. Yep. I don't know much about it. It's native as I understand it. I don't know much about it, but I was just really surprised that there was a sponge, a freshwater sponge. Yeah, I never knew that either. Yeah, yeah. So. Anyway, so that was kind of fun. Yeah, so that's probably a great place to start. That's probably that mindset is probably something that leads you to master naturalist, right? Like just being inquisitive about things like that. Absolutely. I think it's probably the major requirement for master natural is is to just always be engaged or engaged in the sense of I wonder what that is in the natural world around you or to go about and then following pulling those threads when you even just take a simple walk you see something and then you go back and you think I wonder what that was or how do they how does that particular insect.

1:18 I remember once I I lead a lot of hikes for master naturals, a lot of hikes. And so hikes are a perfect opportunity for education and outreach for in all kinds of ways. But one of the things and I had thought about, and my preference is always plants. I love plants and I've in my next life I'm going to be a real botanist. That's that's my goal. But so there, there there you are. You're walking along and you're and I'm pre hiking scouting for my hike. And it occurs to me I have no idea how goldenrod golf flies. You know, those things that make the little balls on goldenrod stems.

1:58 So in there is a larvae of a goldenrod gall fly. So it occurred to me how does, and they're only on a couple of specific species of goldenrods. There are lots of goldenrod species. How does that little critter know which is his type or her type of goldenrod and knows not to make goldenrod the galls on the wrong goldenrod. So, you know, it's the kind of thing you go home and you think I got to look it up. And so there's Google or there's all kinds of field books or there's different wonderful, wonderful resources. And you know how they know they have special cells in their feet. They have little cells in their feet that tell them it's the right type of goldenrod. I mean, how cool is that?

2:41 Fascinating. You would think it's like a smell or like something that only they can see. Right. But it is something, it's it's probably, it would be considered their form of touch, sense of, you know, touch that they're they're working through their feet and they're receiving a message and it says, and that it'll say, Oh yeah, this is a Canada goldenrod species. I can do that. Yeah. You know, so I think that that's sort of looking at things and enjoying things and just trying to pick things apart. And then possibly, I think a part of natural being a naturalist is sharing it in some way, although you don't have to. But it's, you know, you just get excited about things or you think, OK, I can lead a hike. I might have learned enough to be able to lead a hike. And so that's it.

3:25 It's just setting, enjoyment, engagement, curiosity, willingness to follow up and try to find answers or make your own hypothesis up and see if you can prove it on your next 200 and two walks. Yeah, yeah, you know. Yeah, I think that's that's probably where I live. I I I hypothesize things and then like I'll forget to look it up and like the next time I see it I'll be like, OK, more ammo in the mental notes that I can. Use, you know. So how so? How did you get into it? Like what? How long have you been been a master naturalist? And like what led you there?

4:10 Well, the Master Naturalist program in Wisconsin started 10 years ago, thus the 10th year anniversary here, 2014. And I was in I think one of the first official classes after they did their prototype and so forth. And I don't know if I was the first or one of the early official classes of Master Naturalist. And I took it at the clearing, which is Folk School in Northern Door and Door County and Ellison Bay, founded by Jens Jensen in the 30s. And they hosted the sessions and then, you know, we pay tuition and go and we have people teaching us. Instructors are a huge part of the master naturalist program to help people become initially trained and so forth and get through the curriculum.

4:55 So I did that. But what led me to that in the 1st place was that even as a youngster I spent all my time outside. I think had I not grown up in the 40s and the early 50s, I might have made a different career choice but, and some women did back then, tried to get, they got into some of the sciences and so forth. But, you know, for me, back then, we're looking at, oh, let me say stewardess, librarian, teacher, nurse. And then you go to school to get your Mrs. degree, you know, your misses, which I did. He's right over there. So, you know, it was a different time. And certainly many women worked around it and broke through it.

5:38 I wasn't one of them. And I don't regret a minute for becoming a librarian or. And I was also a state. So it's not, it's not regret. It's just something, some things might have been different because I was always interested in the outdoors. So you come through that and then I end up in we spent our adult life in Baraboo before retiring to Door County to be near family. And I had some great friends who were ecologists and botanists and I thought, oh, these are people I could get to know and spend time with. So all of it just sorts to come together. We retry a Door County. Bailey's harbor which has the Ridges Sanctuary has. Tough point. State natural area has Land Trust State natural areas perfect place to fail retirement. And I have totally failed retirement, totally failed retirement, very, very busy.

6:30 Which is why Becky Sapper, the director of Natural Master Natural suggested you talk to me. Because apparently for one or two years, and I don't know about this year, I've had like the most hours recorded in the state. So here I am. So failed retirement, we call that just totally failing retirement. Sometimes failing is happy too. Oh, it is. It's great. It's been a wonderful journey. Yeah, it it really. So I just sort of fell into it. And then the clearing, the formal training came along at the clearing, which is not far from Bailey's harbor. So I took it and there was several of us in that first class that had similar backgrounds. We'd always had the interest.

7:11 We were already out doing things, maybe leading hikes already as I was, but just thought a more formal bow tie to our not really resume, but just just to our our growing knowledge. It would just be kind of fun. Absolutely. So you mentioned. So it sounds like I I think I heard librarian in there before that you were librarian? For a while, I was I was a academic librarian, the longest at UW Baraboo, but it was a children's library in the Public Library Elementary school librarian. As part of my UW Baraboo career, I spent time at the federal prison in Adams County helping UW Baraboo students, who were also inmates, get academic material for their papers so they could write academic level papers for their college degree. So lots of library different types of library work so. We all thank a librarian at different site. Librarians amaze me.

8:11 You all know everything. When immediately when someone needs to know it, you ask a librarian, you know the answer all. The time, I know, I know, it's great, and we trick a lot of people that way and it it really is. Mostly we just know where to find things, and if we don't know where it is, we know how to look it up. People frequently will say, well, who's the author of that book? And I'll say I have no idea. I'll just look it up. Yes, I've I've gained such a new appreciation for library since we had our son. He's two now and my wife especially uses the library so much with story times and just I never knew how much little children read and enjoy reading and getting different books it we've.

9:04 Being being read too. Yes, it's amazing. So I have AI have a whole new appreciation for libraries that I never had. It's it's free stuff. Your taxes are already paying for it. You might as well use it. And they're wonderful. And most people who choose a children's librarian career, bless their hearts, they want to spend time with small children. I you know, so. And in the elementary school I used to do story times, K through 6 and so forth. But you're a little one. Probably I they learn things like 5 little pumpkins. Do you know all the hand songs? I know. You're going to get good at them. I know several hands. I don't know, 5 little, 5 little pumpkins. Sitting on a gate. Yes, I love it. Yeah. I love it.

9:45 So when you were doing sorry times did you did you ever do like the whole dress up in in in in the character and? Everything. Not usually, no. I would. I used to do a lot. So I at the school and I would try mostly to expose kids to maybe a bit of poetry about the theme because we'd have themes and they that might go with the curriculum and so stories and so forth. But I can tell you the hardest audience, tough audience, 6th graders try to read to 1/6 grader or try to read to 20 of them 25 at a time. But the finding books and the chapter in that book, that would just make them sit right there and and listen. But it worked. It worked, you know, a little engagement and so forth, but it it worked.

10:26 It was, it's very satisfying work, but it it it's difficult because you're not their classroom teachers. So they sometimes think Oh yeah, whatever. And but you can do it. And I did enjoy those years at the elementary school and but yeah, I did and then moved to the Public Library and then up at UW Baraboo. So and some of the kid people, the young adults I had at UW Baraboo, some of them were the parents of the kids I had at the school. And then and then as your time goes by, the kids at the school show up. Came to there, yeah. Anyway, all fun, all fun. Yeah, I was actually joking with that about about that with a student the other day. He was very excited that he was going to get the opportunity next year to he's a soccer coach and he was going to get the opportunity to share soccer to around that age group like middle schoolers and in an auditorium setting. And I said I do not envy you for a second my friend. Like I do not mind public speaking and I'm up here teaching you.

11:32 But that is a harder job than I will have to do because an auditorium full of 6th graders is a really tough crowd. Could could be a nightmare, or it could it could go really well. Very tough crowd. It's just hard to predict indeed. Yeah. So then that that skill set, right, that probably still still comes into play all the time with you learning about things just in a different way, right? In a different whether you're you're doing one of those guided hikes or even just learning for yourself right that that all of those skills of searching for answers and being a master naturalist, you said sharing with others like sharing that in an effective way. That probably still all comes into play, right? Being a master naturalist.

12:17 Yes, it does it. It really does, I think a part of being a master naturalist that you cannot. You can take the training and you have a huge thick 3 ring binder that you could take home as as your, you know, it's your textbook that you use over the course of your training. But then you're kind of on your own. It depends on where you live and what organizations are around you. I can always go to the Ridges sanctuary and ask one of the staff there if they know, but frequently they also don't know because perhaps they're a wetland specialist. And I I got a question about a bug, you know, so you still have to do a lot of research, a lot of reading. There's just a lot of reading involved and critical thinking about what's the source.

13:01 It's interesting if you put in, for instance, that you want to know about an insect or a bird or a plant. If you end up in landscaping websites, you're going to get a totally different answer than if you end up in the DNR website or if you end up in a Natural History from a university website. As to whether or not they're looking at what you're looking at, that's beautiful, like say goldenrod, as to whether or not it's a nuisance or a weed or how do you treat it or do you encourage it. And so you, the master naturals and of course things you would encourage it. It's a native species, great late fall bloomer for all those late fall insects looking for neck. I mean, there's a lot of things to going on with goldenrod that are wonderful.

13:45 But again, it's a critical thinking. It's learning, deciding where you get your information and how you go about using it. But having said that, you get some others that don't quite mesh with like Golden Rod may or may not be good. What that does is prep you for almost every single fall hike. When I say on my hikes, you all know that Golden Rod doesn't make you sneeze, right? And everybody goes, oh it does make me, but how do you? It doesn't and why doesn't it? Because it's insect pollinated. So. But what are the what those other points of view do for you is helps you prepare your mind for where your hikers might be coming from.

14:29 You know, this is popular knowledge out there or so it helps you prep for a different mindset that might be coming into your hike, especially if you lead a lot of public hikes as opposed to hikes focused only on those who are already maybe nature lovers. They're just interested. They're who knows it was something to do that morning, so they're coming on your hike. So it it does. The many different sources can help you see where questions might be coming from, and that helps you prepare your answer. You can always say I don't know, that's that's one of the best phrases ever is I have no idea. And. Being comfortable in it. Yeah, but you know, so it it does help prep you. Yeah, so that, you know, meeting each of those people where they're at, right.

15:18 And having that conversation in a different way is probably one of the more, I don't know if important is the right word, but it's one of the more change impact things you can have from being a mass internationalist right. Well, having the conversation with somebody maybe who isn't that in touch with nature or like aware or knowledgeable about nature because if they come on the hike and you know there's somebody who's as passionate as you are and and all of that stuff like that's fun conversation. But in the realm of changing how people live and operate on a day-to-day basis, that's probably a whole different ball game, right? With that group of people that are just didn't have something to do that morning and they're coming for a hike with Jane. Yeah, so, and that's exactly right. That master naturalist emphasizes 3 different areas, and education and outreach is the most common one that volunteers work in.

16:20 But there's also citizen science and stewardship. So that education outreach is huge and that's exactly what you're doing when you're on a hike, that's outreach or formal programs can be education. But you are helping people see a different picture or a larger picture beyond say, well, what kind of tree is that? And there's nothing wrong with that question. And you can ID the tree for them and you can talk about species and perhaps why it's growing there. And so you start to expand sometimes or sometimes on a place like Northern Door, County Ridges Sanctuary and Bailey's Harbor. It is a very orchidy place, lots and lots of orchid species.

17:02 People love orchids. What a great way to hook people into a conversation about larger issues. Orchids are totally dependent on this fungus, different fungi in the soil. So let's talk about soil instead of orchids or as in conjunction with orchids. And again, that's exactly right. You bring people where they are and the questions they ask. There's an endangered dragonfly in northern Door County, globally endangered, and it's called the Heinz Emerald. Very common question. Well, who cares? It's one insect. What good is it? That's a what good is it? That's a legitimate question for people who haven't been thinking about it. I mean, who cares?

17:43 One more insect in the world. Why is it protected Fish and Wildlife? The federal government protects it. Well, let's just talk about the innate value of each thing in and of itself. Or perhaps we don't know what good it is to us, and things don't have to be good only to us as humans there themselves. Sometimes you can see the light bulb go off or you know you or they think, oh, I don't believe I've thought about a bug that way. So these hikes are you're absolutely right. It is a way to start a a change and to help people see larger pictures, sometimes smaller pictures. Fungus, pretty small.

18:28 Soil is pretty large, but so it it is absolutely so. A hike isn't just a hike if you're looking at it again, even yourself in a larger picture, you're you're trying to reach people, help them change their minds about some things you know, or start that process of not change their minds, maybe just sliding a little too the side, just from where they're focused. 100%, yeah. Even if it ends up being in just a bit more awareness about the impact of our relationship with the ecosystem in general. Absolutely. And what that? And it's huge.

19:10 And a small change in mindset can make a big difference in impact, especially like. I mean, thinking about that scenario with a plight that's facing the world, about losing species daily and the amount of species that are on the planet decreasing. Tremendously, yeah. And the insect, It's really it. It truly is like an apocalypse. The, the, the, the diminishing numbers of insects in the world's not only just species, just sheer numbers. And I frequently say to folks, they'll say, oh God, insects, at least there's no mosquitoes today. And so you know, it just depends on what else comes along. But you know, I said it's, would it help how many of you like birds? How about fishing?

19:52 How about turtles? And say, So what do you think they all eat? So let's think of insects not as insects but as food. And you think about things like that. Sometimes you can slide in things like you know, protecting insects and not spraying different things like that which helps overall wear long shady shirt instead of spraying your yard. You never want a hike to turn into a lecture. That's not the point. But sometimes these conversations occur organically. They just come out of various questions or somebody will ask a specific question. So it it you really don't want things to be a lecture or a downer, that's not the. Point you know it's come back if possible. Right, right.

20:36 Or you know it it so it. But mostly you just when you're leading hikes, it's great to be prepared for such a variety of questions. Such a variety of people coming on your hikes, and it's really good for your mind. I I think the thing I like most is learning. I I really love it and then I can say something about it. But I love the learning. I spend a lot of time, especially before new hikes, ones that have a different emphasis, just reading, looking at pictures, trying to figure out different ways to approach things. I love the learning aspect. Yeah, it's good too. I'm getting old. Good for me.

21:17 Yeah, Yeah. So that's that's you you said emphasis there, that's kind of that probably what changes or evolves as the year goes on depending on the time of year in the area that you're in, you'll pick, you'll pick something that's relevant to that hike or how does that work? Exactly. That's how it works. So you I scout for all of my hikes, meaning I take a pre hike mostly forcing my husband to go with me and he'll say is this going to be a botany hike, which means we go very slow. But no, it's fine. It's you do. I just did a hike this fall for the science behind leaf changing. Many people get the chlorophyll business, but they don't always get some of the rest of it.

22:04 So I had to myself, never having had chemistry in my life except maybe high school, spend some time with that. But so that was a fall foliage hike specifically labeled that. Others are just hikes, the daily guided hike at the ridges, well, the main one is going to be very different from the October 1. So you do have to go out and see what's on the trail, see what you're coming across and then have in your mind. Let's talk about seed pods. In May, you're talking about pollinators in the fall. You're talking about how are these seeds dispersed? Are they eaten? Do they stick to your clothes and dispersed by you, or are they ballistic? Those are my favorite kind.

22:45 Ballistic, They mean when they dry, they explode like a plant called Touchmenot. And the reason it's called Touchmenot 'cause if you touch it, the little seed pod will go. So it's a ballistic method of seed dispersal. So you know, just ways to engage people in different things that you just have a tendency to walk on by because they're brown or you know little brown seeds on the stem. So you you wanna and you don't wanna talk all the time. You plan where you're gonna stop so that you have a a point of interest there and gives people a chance to take a little break and look at the something up close. And Yep, hikes are managed. You know there's a beginning, a middle and an end. You wanna know where you're going to stop, what you're going to talk about?

23:33 Be prepared for those oddball questions. But yes, you're absolutely right. Every hike should have some sort of something that you are you want to might perhaps highlight for people who are new to the property. Sure. So you said, I I think you said earlier that you had been hiking, you know prior to master naturalist. Did it change becoming a match master naturalist or were you already doing like guided hikes at that time or? I was already doing guided hikes. I think what it did was actually taking the formal training gave me a a greater appreciation for expanding what I might.

24:18 As I said, I'm a plant person, so I have to be careful not to like, 'cause not everybody is. So it gave me an appreciation for myself. Perhaps I could incorporate more of different things, like the geology. Make sure you're talking about the geology of where you are, the particular environmental issues. What don't I know about this particular forest system that I could include at different times throughout the winter, you know, or whatever when there's no flowers around. So I think because you're exposed to that in in the core curriculum topics at the in the formal training, it reminded me very much reminded me and and gave me an impetus to start to include different topics different level of of how deep do you go how deep do you don't how deep do you don't go.

25:14 So I think it did expand what I wanted to present on my hikes and not every hike gets every issue you you really do you know if you have a hike in this 25 people that's a very different hike from having eight. So again, you you need to takes a long time to push 25 people through a single trail hike and much shorter time for 8:00. So you can do different things, but these are the things you learn over time. But you can you have it there, you have it in your background. But I think truly the formal training enhanced what I was doing because of that exposure to, you know, all the all the spheres, the atmosphere, the biosphere, the lithosphere, all of those things, the the water cycle.

26:04 You know, make sure you understand the carbon cycle. I make it sound like it's, you know, formal learning all the time. For me it is. It's how I learn. But there are other ways as a master naturalist that you can also learn and you can shadow people or take. I take a lot of workshops. I just this spring took a three day Moss workshop. Oh my God, I'm not sure I knew a lot more at the end of the three days than I did 3. Day Moss Workshop. Yes, a three day Moss. He was wonderful. The fellow right here at UW Green Bay, Kier Weffling. He's a spore plant person. Oh he's great.

26:47 And he had three day Moss workshop at the Ridges sanctuary and we had, we had the the microscopes, the double eyed ones and we're out with our hand lenses and we're out. Now, I can't tell you how many species of mosses there are a gazillion and a lot of them look alike. But I did learn and that's that's what you do. It's cumulative. I now on my hikes can talk. I already knew something about spores, but I can talk more specifically about more people love Moss and so we can talk about why some is red and some is green. Does it matter which species it is? No, it's the concept of of the the the Physiology of that Moss and the different ways it copes with a with a cold environment like at Bailey's Harbor. So I learned a lot that I can apply. Do I know a lot about mosses?

27:36 Nope. Even after the three day. Even after the three day workshop and I believe there was another single day workshop in there too but I know a lot more than I did and I can then start to kind of piece out pieces from the Internet. If I have questions I can e-mail Kier. I'm not. And yeah I I never present myself as an expert on any of this. I'm a self-taught don't have the formal background so but again it's how you learn it's how you pull it together. It's a way to open up worlds for people on your hike or yourself. Or it it is, it's just interesting. It's it's just endlessly fascinating to try to learn about these things in nature.

28:23 How many questions are unanswered? How many things we don't know is what I find fascinating. Like even the people who do have the, you know, X amount of years of formal training and are are not the citizen scientist, but the the the the educated scientist, the minuscule amount of things. We actually know that compared to what we could or what is, you know, that's what fascinates me about it. Like you hear three day Moss workshop and you start thinking about OK, like maybe I know enough through day one, but what's on day three of the Moss Workshop? Like? What's he still talking about on day three?

29:04 You. Know on day three. I know, I know. And you know, for those of us who have not used those big microscopes since high school, which for me it was a long time ago, yes, you are learning a lot of new things and some things are very simple. You don't because you're self-taught and you're not a professional in the field or an educator in in that same field. Many things are just as new to you as they would be to anybody on your hike. So by day three, you've got your samples that you've been collecting and you're trying to sort them out into sphagnum Moss and Big Shaggy and all that, and Red Feather, all these cool. They're so cool. So then you're looking under the microscope and you can see what he's been trying to tell you, 'cause sometimes your hand lens isn't quite enough, but you've got now time 'cause you're back in the building and you're looking through your and he'll say no, these are the identification characteristics.

29:59 This is what you're looking for, for that. And can you see them? No, I can't see them. OK, look again, this is what you're looking for. Can you see it? And you know, at one point I finally said yes, I can see they were cells that I was not seeing as cells and it was great. So that's what the. So you have a three day workshop aimed at people who are self-taught. This was not aimed at professionals. He came up to help a whole bunch of people in around in that area who were just interested enough in mosses to spend some time and we're all looking and everybody's going, Oh my God, look at that. Wow, come see this, come see this. So a lot of it is just mutual enthusiasm.

30:42 Some of it is brand new knowledge and you think this is just is this is just going to end too soon. And then there were others who were thinking, OK, OK oh, my. Oh, my God. Almost 5:00. So. But, you know, I don't know it. I think you have to have an enthusiasm for the learning and and for whatever subject of presents itself in front of you. That teaching moment to yourself or to your hikers. Yeah. Yeah. So before we move on too far from the hikes, how, how do, how do they find you? How do you share your hikes and how do you how do you get people there?

31:27 Master naturals is always work through an organization, so usually they would then find organizations that are conserving or preserving. So you're looking at nature organizations to begin with, and mostly you you find each other. I spend a lot of time volunteering citizen science as stewardship as well as education, which is the hikes I I do. All of it. So sometimes when you go to an organization and say I want to volunteer, they will just gladly sit you down and talk to you, and you may have some idea of what you want to do. So you start out at a very introductory level.

32:12 They'll say, what would you like to do? And you'll say, oh, I would love to lead a hike, but I think I might need some, you know, a little more knowledge about it or. And then that organization usually will publish a schedule, an event schedule. And that's really all it takes. And when you're in a tourist area such as Northern Door County, people find you getting. It on the right calendar. Right, right. They find you. So they might be art gallery people. So one day they'll go to the art galleries, but maybe their friend or their relative coming in to visit them is a nature person. So then they'll go find some nature places and they'll look at the calendar. So it really is.

32:53 Most nature preserves have events, most have hikes or they have citizen science opportunities. And once you're involved, it truly snowballs. It truly does. Because you'll think, for instance, that the ridges I've been stream monitoring, I did it with my granddaughter, which starting when she was eight or nine, and we did it till she was through high school. So almost a decade of stream monitoring together. Well, that came about because the rigid sanctuary decided they wanted to start a stream monitoring program, which monitors the help of local streams officially for the DNR.

33:35 And the Wisconsin Actions volunteer group works through your W extension with the DNR. You're trained. You get this great equipment and you go out and stand in the water and you're hip waders and you throw tennis balls in to take stream flow and lots of different things, citizen science. But it came about because the Ridges said we think this would be good for us to start here. And they now monitor, I think 12 or 13 streams in Northern Door County. There are other organizations that work with it. So I said, oh, sure, I'll try that. And then you know, other things come along like frog and toad survey, which is out of the DNR and they were looking, they came to the Ridges and said we need a frog and toad survey route in Northern Door County.

34:20 Do you know anybody who could help? Hand goes up, hand goes up. So you really start to find each other and you expand to what you want. That's what's wonderful about being a volunteer is you can think I can't add that to my schedule, just can't. I would love to, but I can't or I don't. I like hikes more than I like driving around in the night listening for frogs. OK, this is how you listen for frogs at night. Sometimes it's four of us do it together and we jump. It's in the dark, 'cause you do frog monitoring after dark and you only do it by sound. So you're along, you have 10 spots about a 50 mile route, and you stop in the dark along the side of the road and you all jump out and you're listening for frogs and people stop, 'cause you're on the road. And they say, do you girls need any help? No.

35:17 Thanks all good listening for frogs. It's great. So you just never know. But you you really do find each other and the opportunities are endless. I was looking at statistics before I came because I wasn't sure what I might need to know about the Master Naturals Program, Wisconsin. This was I think in in the last three 4-5 years maybe The last stats I saw was like the number three had the number three level of highest number of volunteers in this in the country. Minnesota was fourth. Not just master naturals, this is volunteers, which means there's lots of places to volunteer throughout the state. So it was #3.

36:00 Western states are the first Idaho and Utah. And I think you know that's just so they're, they're number 12 and Wisconsin's high so and. That's volunteers for like, outdoor. Adversity. It's no, it's just all volunteers, all volunteers. And then you come down and you get, you know, just under 1000 master, you know, 6-7 hundred master naturalists working around volunteering. There's just so many organizations that can use you that it's never a problem to find a spot to put your time, to put your learning, your effort. Even things like helping with with mailing lists, you know, stuffing envelopes for a conservation organization and you're helping them. That counts as master naturals volunteer time 'cause you're actually furthering the mission of that natural organization, that nature organization.

36:59 So it's not a hard program to be part of. It's not hard just to meet your hours and so many hours of continuing it. And many people are familiar with Master Gardener program. This is very similar in that sense of 40 hours of required volunteer work in a a nature organization venue of some sort and eight hours of continuing or further education. Pretty straightforward to do so it's not a difficult thing to do or to take. They have more and more classes around the state formal and some are weekends only, some are one day a week.

37:40 It's 40 hours. So however the hosting organization can fit it in and get the instructors you have, you have to do it but. And some days it's a three day Moss one. Some days it's just three. Who knew? Who knew? Who knew? So I I love hiking. I'd love to hear from you. What are a few of your favorite Wisconsin hikes? Oh well, boy, I you know when we're in Bear, we spent our adult life at this is Devil's Lake in Mirror Lake. So those are all all of those have gorgeous places to hike, to climb up to the top of, you know, the east bluff in in over Devil's Lake in Baraboo is is breathtaking. Gibraltar Rock, which is southeast in Columbia County. I think it's a high precipice in the middle of nowhere all by itself.

38:36 It's weird, but that also is a stunning view. By the time you get up there of surrounding farm lands and you, you get a wonderful appreciation of the beauty of farm lands, of cultivated farm lands that you know, there are lots of things one could find not to like about a lot of cultivation. But the beauty itself, the symmetry, the work that goes into it, the difficulty of the farming life is, is just from up there. It's beautiful. It's a lot like nature. It looks wonderful. Did you get close? Nature's about survival and reproduction. That's it, you know, and farmers deal with that all the time. Survival, the hard work, what goes into it to feed the billions of people that we have.

39:29 It's a an interesting perspective because anyway, so that's an interesting hike. Sort of strayed a bit there, but we'll get back there but we'll get back there. So then and then I've gotten to know Northern door since I retired really well 'cause when we were in bear wise working and kids you know the whole thing. So but I love any hike at the Ridge of sanctuary tough point, which is also in Bailey's harbor is beautiful Door County Land Trust has 1415, maybe 16 by now properties well marked hiking trails all over the county. Washington Island has several great ones, so each hike is different because it goes through different landscapes or each season is different. Some of my favorite winter hike is it Logan Creek, which is part of the ridges but South of Jackson Port and in the winter it is in a snowfall.

40:22 It's just stunning it because it crosses some creeks and it's just beautiful. It's quiet. Snow, muffles sound, you know, so it's nobody's there. The barred owl will probably be hooting it up, having a great time, especially the winter. That's their time to mate. Start in 'cause they want their babies big enough so they can feed other baby animals to their babies, so they get a head start. So, you know, the owls are busy. So winter hikes, You want to listen for that, but I don't know that I've ever. And we go on Natural Resource Foundation hikes as well, which are statewide.

41:04 I don't know if you know the Natural Resources Foundation. They're like the giant incredibly important friends group of the DNR. They raise money that helps research at the DNR. They do a lot with bird conservation. They give out a lot, thousands, millions over the course of the time you remember. But they offer hikes and programs around the state. So you have to be a member to go, but it's a very marginal low membership fee. So they there's just we've gone on several of those. We went all the way to Grantsburg, it's way West somewhere and we had a great evening with ADNR educator and we went out and listened to cranes over there. We could listen to cranes here, but it was fun to go somewhere else and listen to cranes.

41:58 So I don't think there's a hike I've been on that I haven't really liked because there's always something to look at. It's like, whoa, did you see that in Poor John Says. Oh yeah. Yeah, I I saw that. Sure. Yeah, I suppose having that, having that level of curiosity we talked about makes no hike not enjoyable. I'm right there with you about winter hiking, though. I I love being outside in the winter. I'm also one of those strange people that I'll take January over July. Oh, me. Too any day. Any day. It's so much, I think it's prettier. It's more comfortable. It's not hot. It's not hot. That's the main thing is it's not hot.

42:39 Yeah, let's talk about that a little bit though. The the large plots of monoculture and and seemingly the, you know, even the word naturalist and how we feed ourselves as a species isn't. They don't go together right? Like it's not a natural way of how we feed ourselves for the most part. But I can't agree with you more that there is something just like that draws you in or like majestic about rolling farmland. It's it. And every time I see it, it never gets old. It never gets old. It's gorgeous.

43:20 One of my favorite things to do is my husband is from North Central Illinois farm country. And when we go visit family, it's just it's remarkable. It's gorgeous, yeah. And and we feed. We feed the we feed the world. And there are a lot of problems with it, but there's also, there's a lot of change. Most farmers do not want to outstrip the land. That's not their job. That's not their interest. They don't want to do that either. So there's a lot of farming practices that have changed. Many are putting in pollinator rows. They're they've switched from plowing to what is that stuff called low tail, no tail, thank you, no tail. So there's, you know, they're also changing. They're making changes of all kinds. So it's got nothing to do with not wanting to change. It's just it's a huge industry and it's machine run and. I think about the output that they're on the hook for. That's right.

44:25 That industry in general, what they have to provide, everybody has to eat, right? And it's like, I I think sometimes that, like, the intention you're talking about gets thrown around like, oh, it's the farmer's fault. Well, it's. Not it's not. Of course it's not their fault. They're doing what they know they can do to produce something we need. Exactly, right. We buy it and they're doing it and they do it very well. And but there are changes that can be made in every industry and farming is an industry these days by and large. So there are changes that can be made everywhere. There are changes that can be made at nature centers sometimes I I still see them selling bottled water. You know so it's it's just not any particular you develop an appreciation for how hard things are to you know you're you're making things do perhaps what they weren't intended to do. But by gum we're going to make them do what we want them to do and that's including plants.

45:26 So it it is there are lots of global issues, but we can we can do our part, we can learn about them, we can vote, we can contribute. Those of us who you know you have cash to contribute somewhere you can, you can help. Sometimes cash is in fact helpful as opposed to your hours and your time and your labor. So it there are many things we can all do individually, but it is there are huge issues, none of them easy to solve or we would have solved them. It's interesting to think about it through the lens of that being very good at it. Like you said, I think sometimes that that we don't realize we're almost too good at things when we get to something, right? Like we become so, so good at doing a certain thing, being hyper focused on it that we don't always think about the outcomes that we're affecting in other areas, right and. Sometimes we don't know those outcomes. We just, we have learned so much. Look at, Oh my goodness, my dad was born in 19 O 8. So he had a different attitude towards things. You see a bug, you kill it, and if you can't kill it, you spray it.

46:45 You know those old things that you see in the cartoons? Yeah, my dad. So. But we didn't know about the result of DDT in some of those things. But when we did learn it, we changed and tried. That change also caused other problems for elsewhere. So we can learn. We have to apply our learning, we have to do it. We have to have the common will as a society. Sometimes that's hard to gather into a single basket, but we do learn and sometimes we don't know it when you look at very small example, I asked once why one of the nature areas had so much Scotch pine. Scotch mine is a non-native tree. Well, because the DNR was advocating planting it way back in the 70s as a way to retree or reforest areas we don't want. We now we take it out.

47:38 We don't want Scotch pine around because it's for one thing it itself is very good at making more. They tend to become their own culture and they carry diseases that the native Pines will suffer from, but they don't. So but again that was in the 70s, it was a quick easy way. It worked. It seemed to be OK and now we know different. So it's it is we learn as we go, we learn as we go and hope we can make our learning into something concrete. Hard to do, Very hard to do. Yeah. Concrete lasting. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, very hard to do. Those are such negative topics.

48:19 So you know it's, it's just. Negatives in the negativity is in the eye of the beholder. You know, valuable conversation is is I think positive right. Like it talking about it. We might not we won't come to an outcome you know, but having it and quite frankly it's some of the reason the podcasts exists. Like I think there's so much value in exploring topics that are a lot of times even on the surface like they can even be like divisive right. Like, we live in a pretty divisive place. But like, if the longer the conversation is about it, I think the more common ground is found like relatively easily and negatively quickly goes to, well, we all have really similar goals, you know, it's just getting there. Right, right.

49:13 Yeah. And. And that's true. And when you look at yourself, for instance, I just looked at my plastic bottle and didn't I just chide somebody for having plastic? But this is. Refilled I can. Tell oh, yes. And it will get rusty. And So what I do and I carry four of these when I go on a hike, so there's not one giant one that I have to carry, you know, in your hand. I look at hikers on an hour hike and they all carry giant water bottles. So this goes in my backpack. And I have four of them, and I reuse them and reuse them and clean them out because they pick up the rust color of my water until I can I I carry these instead of metal. And so yes, plastic has a use. So you just need to be careful with who you're condemning.

49:57 Miss Whitney? Yes, but. Like a glass house adage, right? Exactly right. And so it it you're right, the the long the conversation goes on, the more you can find common ground, the more you can maybe point something out to somebody that they hadn't quite thought of. Hunting is one of those things. Hunting comes up a lot on hikes because almost every natural area in northern Door County allows hunting. There are a couple close to buildings that don't, but they're outer reaches. They will allow gun season especially. That's a conversation to have with a lot of people from cities.

50:40 They don't understand it and they it. So it's again, it's a larger picture. It's a valuable activity in a place like Wisconsin, especially if you're a plant lover. We refer to deer as orchid eaters. 1 less orchid eater in the world. No, it's but those are interesting conversations. Again, many people have not thought of what overpopulation of a species means, not only to the species, but to the environment, to the ecosystem around it. And it is a it is a legitimate, valid sport at sporting activity to hunt and whether it's just for the thrill of the hunt and snowmobiles. That's right.

51:30 Thank you for that too. And whether it's for food on the table or just simply the sport of hunting and then sharing the food, hunting is a is a a valuable tool for natural areas. And it helps people to hear that because frequently it's a it's almost 180�� from what they think. And he just reminded me at the Ridges Sanctuary, which is, you know, a very old Land Trust, Wisconsin's first Land Trust 1937. So people think, you know, we would never allow hunting or snowmobiles. Well, there is some of our outreach trails. The farther out that are snowmobile trails and you talk about and everybody goes, oh, those are bad things because they come at it from a city point of view or from perhaps just a general nature point of view.

52:22 Well, we look at it as a wonderful partnership that doesn't often occur between the snowmobile clubs and the nature preserve. And what good is it to us? Well, to them it's clear we they can use some of our outlying trails. For us, it's eyes on the property in the winter that we don't have. They come and clear the trail before they go out on it, so there's no giant logs ready to trip them up. They also don't stop and dig up plants, and they're there in the winter when their heavy machines aren't disturbing.

53:03 We have some globally endangered plants, orchids that grow on the snowmobile trail. Clearly the snowmobiles just don't bother them, nor that it's the machine because they only go when the snow is deep enough. So again, this is a partnership that we have found valuable over time. Again, it's a way to help people open up their minds to different ways of looking. So again, your comment about conversations going on, things arising, you can sometimes just and I learned from them as well because they come from corporate America, they come from different places and they'll had some of the best conversations with some corn geneticists.

53:51 Oh, nice. Oh, it was great they talked about. Fascinating, I bet. Oh, it. Was I was so excited because corn is an A new world native plant and it's it used to be perennial. Still is, still is perennial, but not the way we use it anyway. So things are getting started to make it perennial. That's a whole way that farmers are also changing. Can we make corn perennial, which would do lots of positive things in the long run, But we talked about the leafy gene. The leafy gene doesn't. The leafy gene adds more foliage to the corn stock. It doesn't change the the ears or anything. Still can be used for corn syrup, which is what most of it and other things like.

54:34 But the additional leaves add to the forage value of the stock. So you've got the same stock but now you've got few more leaves. So they have figured out this leafy gene, I think they actually call it the leafy Jean and So what what a fascinating conversation to have on a hike. Well, because we got talking about who knows how we got down that trail. But so that was that was of great interest in it and it it fits into this whole thing about learning about things are changing as we can for the better. Even the perception of something, there's there's people that would shudder at just hearing the word corn geneticist. They.

55:16 Would shudder. And you know it. It gets bad rap. But you know, a lot of it comes from the, you know, GMO turned into, you know, herbicide resistant and of course that. Lots of things going on, but if we're going to feed billions of people. Yeah. Yeah, so anyway, so, so I learned from them and or they're foresters and I didn't know what was it called? The Maple Leaf petiole, Maple Leaf, petiole insect or some sort beetle maybe Maple Leaf petiole A petiole is the formal name for the stem of a leaf. So this little bug lives inside that petiole.

55:58 Only of maples. And then it falls off. So you have all these nice leaves falling off way too early. So the Forester says, oh, I see you have Maple Leaf Perry on BBDBD. And I said, whoa, what's it again? It's just great. It's just wonderful fun being out and about, encouraging people to look at small things, at big things, having a great time. That master naturalist aspect just gives you that little extra boost of saying I've had some training and let's get out and share it and maybe you could share some of your training with me or citizen science. You don't have to be in front of people to be a master naturalist.

56:38 You can go do citizen science work stewardship. Stewardship is like plant restoration or killing things, you know, invasive species. You can do that or trail maintenance, go thwack things and and make the trail. That's that's what the snowmobile club's helping you. Out with that's exactly right. So, so those 3 three things. So you don't have to be a yakety yak up front all the time. I lead a lot of hikes with a a dear friend. She's a former kindergarten teacher and she's great. She knows so much, but she doesn't like to talk to speak in front of adults. As such, she was a kindergarten teacher. So she.

57:23 Probably still talks with her hands a lot, smiles really big. Exactly. Well, she's wonderful, but she does not like to lead hikes. So we do it together. But she's what's called a sweep. So she's in the back and she'll pass questions along, or she'll contribute once we start and so forth. So again, you don't have to be like me. That can't seem to stop you. You can just. There's just so many ways you can contribute or engage and find it absolutely a delightful way to spend your time. Yeah, absolutely. So I think I think a kind of a neat thing to pull out of that or what you said there recently on the show we had a a quick conversation about proximity and how that changes changes your perception of things. And I I think something like hunting is a really good example of that.

58:17 You were talking. I think proximity to where we get that food, you know, changes somebody's perception of the said ACT or whatever. And we could talk a long time about that. But I think it connects to this really well because I think the same goes for nature in general. It doesn't have to be proximity to harvesting an animal and then ultimately eating it to see its true value or the process of it making its way there. But like a master naturalist, proximity just to nature in general, I think is something that's so, so important and so missing in a lot of people's lives. And I think that's probably one of the more, I would guess, rewarding parts about what you do when you get that group of folks that aren't always in nature that you can kind of see that come alive a little bit.

59:08 Absolutely, absolutely. You know, there's an an awareness and an understanding and then the stewardship or preservation, you know, it's sort of a progress for people. So you, you help build that awareness, which is really what your outreach is doing on a regular basis is building an awareness of the natural world around you in any way that you think will work with that particular group of people or with kids. The whole movement of having forest education, education outdoors, not having the kids sit inside all the time, just get outdoors. And it's an awareness, it's being out there, it's investigating, it's looking at things.

59:50 And you can get adults to do the same thing. And they are absolutely awestruck frequently the first time they look up close at a flower, they've never seen all the little boy and girl parts before, you know, and it's it's just interesting to them. And they think, Oh my gosh, I've looked at the and I had no idea what those things were. Well, now, you know, this part is this one and this one's the other one. It's just it's a wonderful way and an easy way to build that awareness to help people see it. Make connections, not just interpersonal, but for them to make a connection with something or they'll you. I frequently hear, Oh my gosh, I can't wait to show this to my grandson. So again, and it's not that they have some huge understanding, it's the value of looking.

1:00:38 It's it's the excitement of seeing something different in a or in a new way or something old in a new way. It's just fun. And I think that absolutely is the value of being a Master naturalist or a volunteer of any of them. But the Master Naturalist program really helps set the foundation for you to go out and do it. Their resource themselves, you know, they're they're housed at UW Extension Master Naturalist program and they work through the Environmental Research Center and the College of AG and Life Sciences. The Natural Resources Foundation is works with them.

1:01:19 I think I read this like 700 organizations that the volunteers work with across the state. You know I work with several many. It's just it is it's just a wonderful way to get connected that resources are there to help you. You can ask those people for help if you're working on their program. One of the things I do with my friend who's The Sweep, Usually we sucker monitor, which is fish. I mean, I know nothing about fish, nothing zip, zip. But the Shedd Aquarium wants to do a decades long study of sucker migration. They're critically important fish in Lake MI, but they're not a game fish, so so they're considered a trash fish.

1:02:03 So they don't they don't get no respect. So but she's doing this out of she's their director of freshwater research. So she comes up, she has teams of people all the way up the coast to Lake Superior. So she said I need some people. So sure we are. So now I know more about suckers. I still know nothing about fish, but I know I know about suckers. 'Cause. She we had to learn and she and if we have a question, we take a picture and say she'll absolutely help you. The resources are there. It's a wonderful way to engage in a larger world, but it's also very personal world and you can do what you want to as a volunteer as much or as little. I just can't tell you, or maybe I have been, how much fun I have at it, how rewarding.

1:02:50 It is important. I think it's important work. You know, citizen science is frequently data collecting. Well, what are we data collecting for it? So the DNR can make management decisions based on the data you just gave them. It's important they don't have. Like the frog surveys you were talking about earlier. Exactly. I think that I used to live up in the UP and I think they did grouse drum surveys like that too. I think they did. You know, volunteers go out and listen for the drums at different times. A year, right? Because you're collecting data. How many frogs of this species did we hear? Are they decreasing in in numbers? Increasing Stable Stream monitoring has to do with culverts as well.

1:03:35 How did you count the suckers going through? Oh my gosh, you stop. You go daily from late March until early May because the Creek that my friend Julie and I monitor, the suckers do not come until the first week of May. Now every fisherman we asked March through the first week of May. We say, do you see any suckers yet? No, they won't be here till the 1st week of May And we say thank you and you know they're right. But that's anecdotal, that's not data. So what? What they're trying to do is collect the data to prove those anecdotes. So you count suckers. So you could start in March.

1:04:17 If you're lucky, the ice is out and there's no suckers. So you put zero on your clipboard, and then pretty soon you can put 10 because you stand there and you count them. You count them, You actually. Count them. By Yep, you count them and then they start to come in all at once and by 1st of May we might have as many as well Coming into that we'll have 40-50. In this section we walk up the Creek, there's another 4050. By the time we end counting, the end time of counting is when there's too many to count. So we might have 56700 of them and we say Oh yeah, we're not counting those and then the end counting is when you no longer see them because they've gone up and you're they're not in your stream anymore. So, and now they get, what do they call them, those tags, those radio tags, They're radio.

1:05:05 Radio tagging them to see how many come back through the antennas. They're like fish tags and they're fins. It's huge. And that's the Shedd Aquarium. And so, yes, so pretty soon we're counting. And my friend and I swap weeks so we don't have to go every day for six weeks. We just go every day, every other week and you stand and you appear in the Creek again. Guys come along and say, what's your girls looking for? So you know, we're like 30 years older than most of them. So you know, it's at least at least so. But we got our clipboards and there's a measurement thing. We measure the water, the depth of the water. There's we put that in in the spring with with Doctor Karen Merchy comes out from the shed and we're in the water and the hip waders putting the equipment in and we're recording it. Oh, it's great.

1:05:55 It's data collecting. It's just great. But how helpful. She has no other way to get any information on the suckers, which are incredibly important to the fishery because everybody feeds on them, or feeds on their fecal matter, which promotes insects and other things, and their eggs. But they're, as I said, they don't get no respect. My, my, my pops is one of the only people my dad likes eating sucker patties. Patties oh. Yep, he has for as long as I can remember. He he likes at that time of the year. Yep, sucker patties. And they taste disgusting. Yep.

1:06:38 That's why they're not a game fish. Yeah. Uh, huh. And well, I did. When we started this, I tried to. I want, I went to some of the fish markets and stuff and asked and we finally ended up at BearCat. And I said I told her what I was looking for. I said I'm not a fisherman, he said. But we're doing this data collecting project for this shed and I would love to try one. And she said, Oh no, no, don't have any, no, nobody does it. Nobody brings us, she said. Then she thought about it and she said, oh, just a minute. So she went back, and she brought out a little container of Pickled. Suckers. I've heard of that too. Yeah, they were. Pickled and she said here you can have these try these. And so they're they were like pickled herring. Yeah, that probably wasn't as.

1:07:20 Bad. Yeah. But so you know how kind of her to share that with me. I think it was probably her family's dash. But she did think about it and how kind was that And that's another thing about you might find. I mean, I can't imagine 100 years I'd go ask anybody for do you have any suckers I can eat? But because I was involved in the project I thought maybe I should try 1. So again, how kind of her to share that with with me And and it was fun and I can talk about it now and we talked to the fishermen about how important the suckers are and they say, Oh yeah, I know we get that every now and then people are surprised by it. But most of the fishermen have an understanding of how the lake works. They really do. And they just shake their heads at us though out there. May, April, I mean March and April. And there we are the first week of May. Yeah, they were right.

1:08:05 They know. Yeah, well, that's probably part of the proximity thing too, right? People that are close and use the resource have an understanding of the resource that they just don't have the they don't have the motivation to share it the same way that others may. Right, right. It it's been an absolutely delightful journey taking this on sufficiently that I really have failed retirement. I do put in tons of hours and I love it all. I I just really do I the stewardship I I help with plant inventories and GPS ING. We've been GPS ING orchids every orchid we come across at the different places at the Ridges sanctuary. That's all because I'm willing to learn this, just a few of us who do it.

1:08:50 So what do you mean by that? What is? What is GPS ING? An orchid? Well, when you find an orchid, you mark it on your GPS, you're so it has a waypoint coordinates that are kept extraordinarily, extremely private 'cause people poach orchids. But but the ridges is about protecting its resources, not only its land, but what's on that land. And if you don't know you have it, you can't protect it or you don't know how to protect it. So you do plant inventories, that's why places do plant inventories, long term studies. But also we didn't know we had that. So maybe we should figure out how to help it, or protect it, or what's keeping it here and what's here that we need to pay attention to, to keep that particular animal.

1:09:35 Or like the Heinz Emerald Dragonfly this globally or or whatever it is, if you don't know you have it, you can't protect it. So tell me about the orchid. Why? What's the value that people would poach for? What? Because they're because they're seen as a special plant, that many of them are rare. Many of them are in trouble, so they want them in their garden or they want them in their house. People love orchids, and you can buy orchids at the grocery store. I mean, they raise them all the time, but these are native orchids that maybe they've never seen. So they don't understand, 'cause they're very different from the supermarket orchids, which are by and large tropical. Our orchids, Wisconsin has what, just under 50 native orchids.

1:10:16 That's always a surprise to people too. But they're terrestrial orchids. That means their roots are in the ground, so they can get through the winter. But so there's several species of orchids. So we do look for orchids because there's sort of a an indicator of the overall health of the property. They do rely on different species of fungi to germinate. So that means we have to keep that, all that soil or whatever they're in. We have to protect it in different ways or whatever that protection might consist of. But again, we're looking at long range studies. If we start to lose these species, what does that mean?

1:10:56 Is it climate change? Is it, is it encroachment? Is it phosphorus coming in from farms? You know So again it's a way to keep track of what's going on. And then we also do general plant inventories. That's one of the big current pushes that we're I'm involved in is a plant inventory of the richest sanctuary. I do a lot with the riches. It's it. So it it really is. You can develop that relationship if you get involved in this type of volunteer work. You become almost part of the organization. Even though you're not a staff member, I frequently find myself saying we I just feel, but it's because I'm a long term volunteer, they're there. It's an organization that depends on volunteers and they know they depend on volunteers.

1:11:47 So they treat you nicely and well. I'm sure they say we too. Yes. So it's just a it's a way to become wholly engaged in something that perhaps you've always had an interest in but didn't have the time. I just can't speak highly enough of the master naturalist program of reaching out, adding, enriching your life. I mean, don't we all volunteer because it truly makes us feel good and enriches us internally and mentally and all of those sorts of things. But it also, it does good and furthers so many aims and accomplish. It pushes things, helps.

1:12:29 They can't do it without you because they many of these places can't have the staff. Yeah, they just can't. The DNR doesn't have the staff. I mean, even the large places don't have the staff to do it. So it's it you can, you can help and it's great. It's just fun. So I don't know. Absolutely. So I can't believe I've made it this long into the show until I asked, but my curious mind wants to know about all these buttons. But this is what's happening. This is like swag, which is great. First of all you get a name tag. OK so 'cause you I completed the course so but this is great fun you all. I can't wear this hat because it's too heavy, but it is. Every year if you do your 40 hours and your 8 hours, you get a pin.

1:13:12 OK. You get a pin and sometimes you get a special pin. This one, I think says here's 1000 hour pin, here's a 5000 hour pin. I'm headed toward 10,000 hours, I think. But I see I'm. Successful retirement. I think I need to be committed. So but it it's just fun. So you get a pin every year. They like to recognize their volunteers and they do a great job of it. Sometimes you might get a T-shirt for something, but you you get pins, you get extra rewards. It's a minor thing, but nonetheless it's a recognition that you've met the requirements that year that you are part of this larger organization. Join us for a class.

1:13:54 Consider being an instructor. Do you have questions? You know, they are hugely helpful and then they send you a little reward and it's it's great. So I put them all in one hat, 'cause I don't want to lose any and it's it just is some of these are. I think these are all master naturalist. And so 2014, it'll be 10 years for me next year in the program and this is this year is their tenth official 10th anniversary. It's a it's all across the country there are different master naturalist Texas is a long running 1 Minnesota, we based the Wisconsin one. It was based a lot on the Minnesota one but they try to make them very specific to the area. General concepts, carbon cycle, but also then maybe geology of where you are or where you will be spending your time. But also general geology.

1:14:46 General how plants work ecosystems. So they they do try. It's a tremendous undertaking to educate people who are going to be self-taught in 40 hours of the entire natural world. Oh that's pretty huge. And they are the first ones to admit it's not going to make you a master naturalist. It gives you you get the name tag and you are a master naturalist. But it's up to you to keep it going and to learn. Put the time in figure it out, work with others, pair up. It's just so it's a great program, but yeah, you so you get swag. It's just kind of fun. Got it. So does your curiosity just about the natural environment, does it take you out of the state at times? Like do you Do you travel and hike in other places or? No, we are not travelers.

1:15:37 We we don't travel. When we do. We went to a family reunion in Galena. Yes, in Galena. Boy, there's some great little strange county parks in Galena. So when we do go elsewhere, we usually try to find a place to to go walk or hike or just to stretch the legs. I'm not much of A shopper, so and we're not foodies. We just we're just very dull people. We're just very dull people. So we do it. We go off and we, we want to find a place to, oh, I don't know, go have an ice cream cone and sit and look at a view or get out and take a walk. Yes. So we don't travel. But when we do, actually, it's mostly to visit family.

1:16:19 We do try to find some place new to take a walk. Yeah. If you immerse yourself in the environment, there's very little dull about the outdoors. That's that is a true statement. That is a true statement, 'cause you could watch things or you can question things or take a photograph. The beauty is remarkable and the underlying struggle you can it. It's there it it's just it is it that it is about survival. But the many ways to go about it is it's it's stunning that the many ways that the natural world chooses to do the same thing, survive and reproduce and how many ways there are to do that. And they all have a little niche that they all work within and they all do it slightly differently. So this little group of plants over here does it one way, but even within that one little group of plants, it might be a little variation.

1:17:21 You know, some do it with the male plants over here and the female plants over here. That's dioecious. When they're separate, they have to get together. Or then there's the ones that do it on the same Bush. You know it. Why? What is behind that? Other advantages to one of the other Which came first, the split sexes or the together sexes? And then they decided to split 'cause it was more efficient. But it's all about evolution, is about change over time, adaptations. It's wonderful. It blew my mind, and it wasn't that long ago that I learned it about how like lettuce and spinach, and I think there were even some of like the fruiting plants that I can't remember what they all were, but they all, like, stemmed from one plant at one time.

1:18:10 We all stem from 1 cell. Well, yeah, yeah, there's that. There is that there is that, Yeah. Yeah. Yes, it is. Flowering plants are fairly young. The ones with flowers, the the gymnosperms, the things like conifers, much older. So probably the flowering plants at some point had adaptations or let's say mutations, genetic drift, lots of different things that eventually became adaptations that were passed on to then become the flowering plants. You know it's but the flowering plants, that's a whole young group of things comparatively speaking to other things. Spore producers are much older.

1:18:59 And then the gymnosperms, which are not spore producers, they they have pollen and they have male and female cones and they pollinate each other just like the flowers do. Flowering plants do. But they don't have flowers. They don't have flowers. I think the main difference is they don't have ovaries. Perhaps you didn't know we were going to get into that today. Never know what. We're going to get into that's. The exciting part? About, but you know, so one is just much older than the other and one came along. So it's not that surprising that those were flowering plants. She was, Speaking of vegetables generally flower at some point if you let them go, and so they're newer, but they probably did arise.

1:19:43 It could also have been deliberate. Humans have been manipulating plants for a long, long time, and insects manipulate plants. Plants manipulate insects so it goes back and forth because they want to work together. They want that insect to come and get this pollen and go over there so. Did you see that relatively recently? I can't remember where I even found this. Probably just a random story that I read online or something, but about that type of soil that they found in the Amazon that was manipulated by humans long, long time ago, that that is more like it's more permaculture driven than what we do. But it did you did you hear?

1:20:32 Anything about that? I know you haven't read about that. I'll have to look that up. I wish I could tell you where to look it up. See, that's the that's the good, that's. The downside of the curiosity is there's only so much room to remember where things that you were miss are are. I know I can't tell you how many things I have bookmarked. I it just hopeless bookmarked in my computer or pin, you know then you've got the night that really Jane it's really get a grip. Yes. I was just reading an article about soil on Mars. So we want to do this. Soil on Mars. Yes. So if we want to colonize, how in the world are we going to grow our food without insects? We're going to have to take insects to Mars.

1:21:14 How cool is that? That we're going to have to take insects to Mars. So people who think they're getting away from, you know, deer flies and mosquitoes might be wrong, but it's mostly going to be things like bees and other because insects work the soil and work the decay and all of it is of a piece. And the plants that we use need it and either we learn to bypass it or we take them with us so that they, the soil can start to become our type of soil and not Mars type of soil, which is useless for our plants. So, you know, somebody had to think about that, Yeah, yeah, we can go and we can, but how can we do it on any scale if we expect to live there? So we're going to need to reproduce parts. So that's a scary thought, but but it is interesting that just all concerned at saying, well, we're going to have to deal with insects.

1:22:12 You would have to, yeah. And that's, you know, so that's funny that you bring that up because that's like there's, there's, there's like this spectrum of conversation that is easily accepted versus like, well, that's strange. So living on Mars, you know, it's weird that it's talked about now, but think about that conversation 30 years. Ago, 30-40 fifty years. Oh, my. One of my favorite movies is The Martian. I mean, botanist is the lead character. How cool is that? I mean, how many movies say, Oh yeah, let's have a botanist be the lead character?

1:22:54 Yeah, if they sent the, if they sent the ship up, would you be on or would you stay here? Oh no, I stay here. I don't travel. No, no, no, I don't travel. Especially Marsh especially. Marsh. Yes, exactly. I watch the marsh and I have deep potatoes forever. No, but no, I don't think I would. You know you get to be a a certain decade and it's like oh somebody else but you just keep going and it keeps you young or you know at least moving and get you out there. I the mental stimulation the engagement with people the learning, the feeling of of actually making a difference small difference is fine it's just all it's it's it's wonderful it's it's I'm so glad I failed retirement. I I just really am.

1:23:47 It's it's it. It's it. It is. It's meaningful to fail retirement. Especially being able to do it in something like you. You glossed over your story very quickly about how access to it like wasn't readily available or easily available as you were. You know, choosing a career path and and what it. Was well, way back when, yes, yes. But like that, that's a whole another conversation of a gift from it that you're able to do that that you know failed retirement turns into really your career that you're passionate about. Right. This and yes, exactly.

1:24:29 And had something like this been around or who knows had somebody in my family been doing this sort of thing, but it just wasn't just, it was different. It was just different. Different times all fine. Just different times. We change, we move. You have to be willing to to say yes, take a risk, lay yourself out there and and frequently you say, well, I can learn that, but then you find out you really can't or you don't like it at all. But that's what's great about volunteering. You can say this isn't working for me. I'll be glad to try this. It's still a win when you do, when you know what you don't want to. Do. That's exactly right and you don't. And the organization doesn't want you doing it if you're not enjoying it, or if you're not liking, or if you're not putting your effort into it as well.

1:25:12 So it's just a perfect way to figure out who you are, is to volunteer and and see what you like. What drives you, what, what do you want to do next? Gosh, what's up today? Yeah. Absolutely. Well, it was awesome. It was awesome chatting with you and having you on. I appreciate you taking the time and sharing your story with us. I I think the gift that you give a lot of people I I can only imagine is is priceless. Comes right back at me. So thank you. It's great to have the opportunity to share this organization, Master naturalist.

1:25:54 It's wonderful. Look it up, find those training places, get out and just. Do it. If nothing else, come on a hike with you. Absolutely. Absolutely. Come on a hike. Yep. Thanks, Jane. Thank you.