Garrett Dietz - Driftless Trout Fishing, Marketing, and Passions - Ep.#4

0:16 Figure it. How's it going, Brad? Good man. Glad to have you. Glad to be here. I love the space. Turned out good. It turned out really well. Yeah, I've never, I've never claimed to be like the master Carpenter. Yeah, but it turned out alright. It's not all tongue and groove or anything, but it looks great. Yeah, if it's the theme too. Yeah. So what? What happened last night? Did you find out? Did we win our golf league? Yeah, we did. And I got a drink out of Heather. I got her by two strokes. So she she honored the deal. And yeah, we won the golf league. So good end of the season. Are you playing Fall League? No.

0:58 OKI need a partner then. Yeah. What a way to find out. Thanks. Thanks, man. Yeah. How's the how's fishing been this summer? I haven't had a chance to get out with you. It's been good and I've went quite a few times down to the drift list this summer, which is a little bit of a change for me. And then also, you know, I went to Montana there and fished by Yellowstone. So done a lot of diverse fishing opportunities, a mix of fly fishing and spin this year, but had a lot of fun, took some new people out and got them engaged, interested. It's always fun doing that. I think the best time of the year was I took my dad out for Father's Day. Fish. Some new sections of water ended up landing like a few dozen fish, but just had a really nice morning.

1:40 Went out early on Father's Day morning, a great way to start the day. Coffee in the car, chatting with my dad, so that's cool. That's probably the best time of the year. We didn't catch anything like crazy size, wasn't coming back with a 5 inch brown or anything out of a stream, but just caught nice brookies and had a good time. Yeah, you talk about the driftless a lot. I'm excited to go down there. I mean, as you know, just getting into trout fishing, I've always been a bass guy and you kind of got me hooked on it. What, like for the people, maybe the occasional trout fishermen are people like I was like, you know, fish the Bay a lot for walleyes and bass and perch, stuff like that. But I had never really gotten into Trout that much. Like, what is, what is that area of our state like, and what draws you there so much? I know you go.

2:24 You go there whenever you can. Yeah, there's quite a few things. So I grew up in the UP and that is totally different. Trout fishing. I mean, you're coming in with a machete sometimes just to try to get back to the streams. It's so thick and the drift list is the complete antithesis of that. I mean it is. Flat farmland, it's easy access. The Wisconsin DNR has a ton of easement access, sort of the counties, so fishermen don't have to just keep their feet wet to be legal in the streams. So there's a lot of public access. So it makes it a fisherman's paradise really just to get to a lot of good water. Another thing is the DNR did a lot of restoration work probably 30-40 years ago in the 80s into the 90s of stocking those streams. To just rehabilitate them really. And they have the exact same stream habitat as in Europe. Those chalk streams, those limestone streams are all spring fed down the drift list.

3:15 So it's literally paradise for brown trout. That's their natural breeding habitat. So the population is just crazy. It feels more sometimes like catching than fishing. So that's one one to lure and then also the size I mean. Some real trophy fish down there and some real awesome opportunities. So I think that's what keeps me coming. It's easy to fish, it's fun. You can go with a group. There's tons of awesome properties to rent down there. We we do an annual family fishing trip out for Turkey trip down there. So yeah, I think that's that's kind of what keeps me coming back. Yeah, talking about the easements, man, you've got a really funny story this year. So some go through farm fields, right? And what what happened again? It was like a he got charged by a bull or something. Yeah, so I brought my brother-in-law down there for the first. Time ever to the drift list for an extended stay. He actually was the one that helped me scout it out. Like six years ago we did a day trip. We left at like 3:00 in the morning, got back at like 11 at night and just fished like and how we're at 7 different streams to try to see what was good.

4:13 And that was really our test. We took him back for the first time for a three night stay right before the 4th. And I told you, waited six years until he got back. Five. I don't know the exact timeframe, but he's been fishing me a couple times since then. But he was been at college, things like that. So he's a little younger and we've had some interesting experiences where like, cows will cross right in front of you. A whole herd. Like you said, it goes right through farmland. It's public access and the farmers are really chill about it. But you do have to keep your head on a swiffle, so to speak, because this year Jason was coming up the stream and he said he heard a snort. And he looked up and there was a bowl standing right there and he was posturing at him and then he took, you know, those big round metal hay feeders like 6 foot circles.

4:56 The bull took that and bashed it into the stream next to him, knocked over some trees. Jason's like, I know it's only public access, but I need to Sprint because he's scared. So he just booked it across the field. I got back to the car and the bummer was I was on a different stretch, no cell service. He had to wait in the car for four hours for me to finish fishing my stretch because it was like a mile and a quarter each and we just were hopping bridges. So he had to really think about what he did. But no, it's always interesting down there and I've had bulls snort at me or like I said, cattle Ford the river right in front of you and you just kind of back off a little bit. Give them some space. They're big animals. Mostly nice, but. You never know of bulls, so yeah, that's always the watch out. And he found out the hard way.

5:38 That's all those stories that lives in like camp history, though. Yeah, you know, like that one will go, that one will go down in in the books. Oh yeah. Speaking of books, you all keep at your deer camp saying for you from the UP, Yeah, you keep a really cool log, too. I think a lot of people do that at their camp. So when did you start that again of like deer harvested and stuff? Yeah, I mean, it's everything people visited, like pranks played, deer harvested. I think my grandpa. I built the camp 76 I think, but in there late 70s, mid 70s and since the day it started there was a log. First entry in the log is when the camp was built, naming it Ted's temple after my grandfather.

6:21 And yeah, every year so we can go back and see. We put in wind, temperature, bucks, scene bucks harvested. And it's really interesting just to see over the years and we put in what crop was in. So we've noticed that when soybeans planted, we have a lot of acreage. My grandpa was a farmer, so he still rents out that property to some farmers to harvest. And when soybean is in there, it seems like our buck yield goes up. So just it's interesting to see that over the years and kind of some of those trends. Yeah, it's fun to keep history and. There's some fun stories in there, too, some of them not so legible late at night, you know, typical camp. Absolutely, Yeah. Are there any? It's awesome that that's a big part about, you know, the enjoyment I get out of hunting is the, you know, finding those patterns and learning the animals and spending time on the doors.

7:11 What, what kind of patterns have you learned about Wisconsin trout? Like what? What do you see in that? Like is, you know, if water goes down, do you catch more after rains? Like what patterns do you see there? Yeah. Well, that that's complex. That's actually a really good question because it depends to on what type of fishing you're doing. So if I'm fly fishing, it's going to be different spin fishing, if you're just throwing a spinner or a streamer like you're just trying to still hit the holes, whatever you might target, you know an upper section of the stream as the summer goes on and those trouts start to stage for spawn and late fall, so they will migrate up towards the headwaters. So just where you're fishing might be different. But then, after a rain, you're going to see if you're matching the Hatch with flies. A lot more things get terrestrials is what we call them.

7:53 We'll get washed into the stream. So then worms are in the stream where you've got grasshoppers or other bugs that have been washed in from heavy rain. So then you're switching your tactic and trying to match that hatch, so to speak. So that's another thing. You'll see the trout, especially after a really heavy rain. If you catch them, you'll notice that they've got worms, just stuff to the gills. They're just gorging themselves on the stuff that gets washed in. So it's really interesting. I think it's rainfall, it's time of year and then temperature is a real big thing for trout. And I don't want to get like too scientific or technical, but also being conscious of when to fish. Trout are really, really great indicator species for stream health. I've talked about that and like the more scientific side of like Burke trout, they have a mucous membrane, right? They don't scales like a traditional fish, so they're susceptible to like pollutants in the water, things like that. But another aspect is in the water temperature, it's really high.

8:45 And we've noticed that in recent years, setting record highs in Wisconsin that you don't want to fish midday when the water temperature is at peak because that stresses the trout. So a trout without stressors, without being caught, can survive up to like 80, maybe a Burke trout. Brown trout are really resilient. They can almost get to like 9088 or something like that where they'll survive. But if you catch them in that condition, then the cortisol level goes up and then they're stressed and then the chances them dying if you're catching and releasing go up dramatically. So there's also considerations with water temperature for safety of trout and just a sustainable fishery. I know that's a little nerdy, but that's that's the stuff I geek out on and get passionate about. Yeah, it's awesome that and that's some like, that's one of the reasons that indicator species things.

9:28 That's one of the reasons that brook trout are not only sought after, but like that's you find them in kind of more untouched areas, right? Yeah, that's been less impacted by human development or human activity. Yeah, Crystal Clearwater. You know, really, really calm or like interesting pockets underwater, falls when you're hiking back to places. Like, I always tease my wife and she laughs. But every time we go past the stream, no matter where we are, we're traveling across country. We're in the Bahamas is like you think there's trout in there? Are there's trout in the? I don't think so, no. I I don't know for sure. But I'm going to go with probably not. Definitely not our kind of drama. Yeah, No. Like sea trout are real. But I don't know.

10:09 It's a good question. I asked that question and no one answered me in my hypothetical nice Do you do any of the trout in the Great Lakes? Do you get after lake trout or the big Browns in Lake MI or anything? No, not a lot. I have done some charter fishing in Lake Superior. Super great if you're trying to harvest food. Cold water temperatures. I mean, those fish are about as tasty as you can get. They're so good to smoke. Yeah, yeah, Any way you make them, they're just that cold. Temperature keeps them fresh, so a little bit of that. Not a lot though. I'll do some of the stream run fishing just to see if I can catch something. Spring fall when the Browns will come up in stage before spawning.

10:52 I try not to fish, drink, spawn, but you can get some big trout or it's cool even if you don't catch them. You see giant trout in little streams like as wide as this table, and there's like a 30 inch trout in there just staging for spawn. Yeah, and you're just like, that's pretty sweet, yeah? How did this happen, man in the in the inland streams, that's kind of how you got me hooked. Seeing big fish in where you feel like they shouldn't be or like you never would have thought they were like that's what one thing that really is appealed to me since you kind of showed me the ropes of this is like that the 1st place that we went, like we didn't catch any, but we saw what a handful, almost a handful of Browns that were over 20 inches and like it seemed like we were walking in a puddle.

11:36 You know, that was wild to me. And that's that's the appeal to me. That's really neat. And that's, I think like the purest form of the art, I guess I call it, but sight fishing. Is especially with fly fishing. Like you're gonna go and you're gonna look for that trout you can see either rising or staging and really shallow water maybe sipping on this surface or holding its spot and in really clear conditions and nice rivers like that, especially small ones. There's only so many places they can be. So once you learn to read the water, like, oh Dang, look at that thing and then you can cast to it and really work that one fish. And that's, that's the beauty of like, once you really get going, it's like, wow, I'm gonna really dedicate my time to 1 fish maybe today, or maybe only five holes, and really try to target that big fish. You know, if you're looking for a trophy and just looking for a picture or whatever, there's a lot of reasons. But yeah, that tug from a big fish that's unmatched. Yeah, absolutely.

12:27 Just seeing them in that environment was really cool to me, man. So kind of flipping that something for you. It's a you know, in in life there's things that we start and that we've done forever, and then there's everything in the middle, right? You're on what your your third year of golfing like, Seriously now? Yeah, yeah, The trout was all life. Yeah, that's like, since I was a kid, I ain't got a picture of, like me with a brick trout. My father and I was like 4. Yeah, but golf, Yeah, not so much. I worked at a golf course in the kitchen. Got to golf either reduced or free. I golfed once and I was so frustrated and I told them about it and they're like, maybe you just shouldn't take advantage of that benefit.

13:10 So yeah, no, I I didn't really golf until, yeah, just about three years ago. I didn't know that part. So, so you as what Dish? Washing dishes. Or, yeah, I wash dishes, help cook, things like that. And I don't know, you kind of do everything in a small golf course. But yeah, yeah, it did not go well. Like one or two times I went, yeah. So what's got? What's got? It seems like you're hooked on golf. What? What's the journey been like since starting a couple years ago? Until now. I think it's the delusion of I could be good. Yeah, that's what hooks you like you hit, All you need is 1 good shot and everyone jokes about it, right. But Brooke always laughs My wife when I get home. I'm like, you know what on whole 5.

13:52 I birdied it. And that's the longest hole on the course or whatever, right? And then you, you're like, I had two great shots. Like, you know, I stayed in the fairway and then you're like, I could do that every time when in reality it's like, Nah, I'm going to hozle it the next time and on the next hole I'll probably like 3 Putt. But it's that delusion of wanting to be good or that you put in the time and you see incrementally those changes. I think that kind of answers that question. I think I took it my own way, but I don't know. It's just it's a fun sport and it's. I'm always competing against myself and I think that's I always wanted to improve, right? And looking at it week to week, I don't feel like I am sometimes. And that's frustrating. But I just golfed 18 and I'm not great, right? And I'm a high handicapped golfer. I've been golfing for a few years, but I was like, I broke 90 on 18.

14:41 And a year ago I wasn't even thinking, I'm like, can I get under 100 right? And it's just to see over time, like, yeah, I go into the range playing a lot of grounds, like. It does pay off and it's fun to see that improvement. Like I said in the in the small term, short term, sometimes you don't see that and then you just fix it on that one good thing and that delusion of I can do that every time. And like, yeah, if I I always, I think you tease me and other people sometimes that I have a really interesting outlook on golf. I'm like always the perfect line. But it was internal optimist. Yeah, you're the eternal optimist. But it was funny. Art short. Well, I try to be, so I think it's that too. It's like, you know, my missus aren't as terrible. I'm not in the woods 24/7. And it's just fun to be out there. And I like to start my days that way. I don't know.

15:24 I have a membership where I can go out and get a three first 336 thirty tee time. That's back to Troll Fishing 300. Yeah, Yeah. Or I think 2:00 AM this morning. Yeah, this year. That's a whole nother story with the DN. Yeah, we don't need to get into that movie, but no, I so I'm getting up early and I can even get around him before work sometimes. So I've really been trying to play cuz I want to be good. I don't like that doing things if I don't feel confident or whatever I do. So that's part of it. I think that journey, yeah. And I mean you talked about earlier like a 10 stroke difference in one year. That's like, that's a golfers dream to make a 10 stroke difference in one year. That doesn't, you know, particularly happen a lot. It's one of those slow burns. Golf.

16:06 Is that like, you know, you feel like you said earlier, you feel like you take one step forward and then you can play around two days later and you take 2 steps back. Oh yeah. And and that's the frustrating but exciting part cuz then you're like, I gotta go back cuz I know I'm better than that, yeah. But I might not be. Let's see you never really know the the the skill level of golf or like even when you talk about a handicap is probably the best reflection of it. But it's still not a good reflection of how you are as a golfer because that day determines how you are as a golfer. It it's always different like you can go out one day and even from the range to the round if you go on the I'm not a huge range guy but sometimes if I have time I'll get out there and you hit some good balls.

16:50 You're like, all right, today would be a good day. You get out and shoot 5 strokes worse than you thought you were going to or like. I mean as you've seen the the past two weeks, my putter has just went ice cold. Yeah, ice cold and I've lost. That's been the difference of probably 4 to 6 strokes around for me just by not having putts drop. And then things start happening like yesterday where I lip out two that were that I felt were good. I like, I felt like it was a solid putt. Like that's going in. Things are right in the ship and then they lip out. So then where does your golf confidence go and where does what happens with the game. That's why I that's what keeps me coming back and that's what have, I don't know I probably started when I was 10 or 12 or something and the the ebbs and flows that continue to happen are are just like it's a really good reflection of life. Like there's a there's a really cool life adage of like, you know, you've probably heard, like ride the wave or whatever. Like, don't try to impact what happens to you. Go along with it and react to it. Golf forces you to do that because there's nothing that you can do about it.

17:55 Yeah, I think especially someone that's been golfing for a long time. Like you said, since 10, you've really experienced all the highs and lows. I'm still on the lows for the most part. Well, sometimes there's no time to say that. Well, it's still, it's improving, right? Like I'm. I'm still somewhere down here on the slope. Eventually I want to get up here. But it's a fun journey. I'm not disparaging the process at all. It's actually really fun to go out there and just put in reps. There's something about, you know, using your hands or anything like that, like just that repetition. And there's some sense of serenity in that. Right. And I think that's the beautiful thing about golf. And you always walk and you always talk about. Yeah, usually you walk. I ride. I'm lazy sometimes.

18:36 Don't like the heat doesn't agree with me. But no, I think you would also talk about that where it's just like it's calming and that actually helps you kind of get in the right frame of mind of just, you know, feeling the ground under your feet and like walking up to the shot and thinking about it. There's something nice just about being outdoors. So I'm sure you can talk more on that, but I don't know. Yeah, absolutely, man. I like 2-2 summers as I was graduating high school, which is a long time ago now. But two summers I there was a course close to my hometown that had like $150.00 membership that I would buy for students. So I would wake up in the morning and at that time I I played. I'd like my whole life pretty much revolved around football. But golf was like a secondary love of mine.

19:17 So I would wake up in the morning and either do my lift or apply metrics or whatever kind of workout I was doing. And then I would go to the golf course and usually golf 18 to 36. And I would, I would do that still very early in the morning, like I would have that, try to have that all done by like noon or something. So golf takes a while, but that was one of the most you mentioned serenity. I mean, that was one of the most, like, you know, peaceful routines that I ever had. Of course, there's a lot of less obligations in life at that time, too. But like, that's a, it's an awesome feeling, man. Like, there's nothing better to me than an early, like, getting the first tee time. And especially if there's some dew on the grass where you can see your footsteps walking and then just starting to walk around. At that point, most of the time I I don't really think about the score too much and I don't really think about the game. And that's more of like that's an enjoyment of life that comes outside of competing against myself or someone else or anything.

20:18 That's just one of those things of a lot of the reasons why you fish too. Yeah, you know, it's not always about the fishing and it's the same way for golf sometimes. Yeah. And I I kind of lost that a little this year. Like, I was so focused. I want to be better, right? I'd put in my air pods when I started the round, like said, going early in the morning. And I did that like 2 rounds. And I was like, what am I doing? Like, I don't hear any of the birds tripping anything. Like I need to just take a break. So the last few times I've went, I had no air pods, no music. I'm just out there in the morning. I mean, the rounds are quick. When it's just you right in the morning like that, especially when you got that 6:30 or whatever tea time you're, we're in 15 minutes or whatever. You're not waiting, right? But it's a lot more peaceful. And I also found that I scored better or I just felt more confident, cuz I just felt like I was in the moment.

21:03 Yeah, I don't know. I don't know, like just what you said, just kind of relying on just like the the presence and just that Dewey grass and the birdsong. And it's not, I'm not competing against myself, I'm just enjoying it. And then you tend to do a little better when you're not overthinking, Right. Absolutely. So yeah, What made you? What made you want to start golfing? What made you want to get into it? I think. I think our work league okay, that and a really good friend of mine started my wedding. One of our best friends. Pretty good golfer golf this whole life. I mean, grew up on a golf course and talked about it a lot and how much fun it was and. So I think my first time I was like, hey, I'm gonna, I want to do this league at work, but would you give me like a little mini lesson? I don't know what I'm doing.

21:46 Like I can I played baseball. I know the swings not really the same, but it's a, you know, a hand eye coordination sport. Like maybe I can figure it out and it wasn't great, but I made contact and I was like, yeah, good enough to try this league. And I live right next to a driving range. So I put in a lot of time that first month that just like he gave me like two or three simple drills. And I was like, I'm going to keep doing these until I can at least make consistent contact. I don't know my distances. I don't know anything. I didn't want to make a fool out of myself. So I think that was my initial motivation. I was just like, I want to be social. I was hired at my current job during COVID. So it was a really good way for me to know people like I knew like maybe 6 people and out of office of, I don't know like 30 in that area and hundreds at the company. So I don't know.

22:29 It's just like maybe a desire to be more social or get outside in a really weird time. Yeah, I think that's kind of what kindled it. Yeah, absolutely. It's a really great the league we play in is a great usher into golf because it's not like people are going out there to be ultra competitive and that have been golfing for a long time. Like, there's people that have golfed less than much less than you. And yeah, they're just starting and it's kind of a fun one to, you know, start. With well, it's super competitive. We started that. We won the league. Oh yeah, Yeah, yeah, super competitive. Really hard. We're great golfers. Yeah. No, it is actually. That was one of the reasons or one of the things I think kept me around was it was just fun and like said it's a great way to meet people and people of all skill levels.

23:13 And I think that's a really good way to get more people into golf. Because I would like, I said. I think that was one of the main motivations for me, and I don't think I would have gotten into it otherwise. And I'm really glad I did. Yeah, I had a fun conversation a couple weeks ago. Somebody asked me that question. I can't remember where I was. I was obviously golfing, but I can't remember where. And somebody asked me why I had started golfing, and I can remember it vividly. I never would have started golfing without Tiger Woods. It's it's so weird to have followed his career trajectory and and kind of like as one of my childhood heroes like follow along with his life and to see like smash milestones and then crash down to as low as anybody can go and then come back and then crash down again it's crazy but I'll never forget like I I had paid 0 attention to golf as a kid and none of my family were golfers so nothing like pushed me in to golf and and I hadn't really paid attention to it until I started seeing like Tiger Woods highlights and it made it exciting to me.

24:17 Yeah I was always a huge like I can never remember not just like loving football more than anything like watching it on TV and just being completely entranced. I still spend way too much time watching football, but I remember like, Tiger Woods bringing in electricity to the game. That had always been kind of boring to me. And when I hear you say something like getting people into golf, that's been like a minor passion of mine in my life. Like, anytime I hear somebody saying, like, they would like to try golf or if they want some, like, introductory tips or something. Like I've always jumped on that because like it's such a wonderful game that flies under the radar for so many. Although I think the popularity has grown. You know, I mean if you're a middle-aged dude you probably play golf a little bit now.

25:03 But I like seeing other other like demographics get into golf. Like it seems like I don't know if there's a a smaller league before ours or something, but there's always a lot of seemingly a lot of ladies that tee off before us on the same 9 in our league night. That's awesome. I love seeing that the, like watching the LPGA Tour grow slowly is cool and like, it's a hidden gem, man. It really is. And without Tiger Woods I I never would have done it. So I don't know who that is now. Like, I don't know who's exciting kids to golf. I think it's more probably like YouTube, like influencers. Golf influencers have really taken off and I think they've brought a fun dynamic to the game and I've been introduced to a few different ones. But I think that's another exciting aspect that golf isn't just a $7,000,000 prize purse, and everyone's super serious. And you can have fun with the game still. And I see things sometimes on social media of like A1 Club Challenge.

26:00 Can you play nine holes with only A7 iron or driver off the deck for one hole only, right. I think some of that silly stuff is just a way to get some eyes on the sport too. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I was just going to ask producer Dan what the name of it is, but there's a there's a TikTok account called Bob Does Sports. Have you? Oh, yeah, 100%. Yeah, I do. Yeah. Like with Joey, Cold cuts and like when he went. And some of it's not even about golf. But like, a lot of their content revolves around golf. And I could definitely see that. I could definitely see like you know a kid my age when I started golfing. Now seeing Bob does sports. I mean like that looks fun like I hang out with my buddies like he always talk whenever I think of him.

26:45 I he did like 4 videos a row a new restaurant opened in his in his town in his like area that he lives and they had these good Caesar wraps and he loves Caesars if you watch the. Sports. Like, I'm not maybe that close of a fan. Oh God. And he talked about it and he's walking around and like, he's eating a Caesar wrap. But at all, like it started with golf and that's where that's the home of the content. And like stuff like that is hopefully the next round of exciting. Because now sports coverage has evolved to a place that I think everybody sees it and it like it commands our our culture. Sports does in a way. Like I was listening to something earlier this week where I'm trying to remember how they worded it.

27:31 But like, it was just it was a list of like influential people in one way or another. And like, it seemed like 2 out of every three were athletes. And it's weird to think about how that's evolved. So that piece is in place now. How do we get it to, you know, somebody that doesn't want to be on the PGA Tour but they want a hobby with their friends or something like that? No, I mean, I think that's such a good. And observation. And I think it's interesting that you said most of the influential people are athletes. But it makes sense too, right? That's who gets all the screen time. Like you said, it commands our attention. Our culture revolves around sports.

28:12 We have so many sports analysts like shows, and I love it. Yeah, there's a sports nerd too. It's fun. But also other people that are in the space, like Bob does sports and then I know it's good. Good, right? It's a it's a group of younger guys when they're young, 20s. I think that inspires a lot of young people. I don't know, there's just a lot of really cool influencers in that space that are doing good things. Yeah, I know that sometimes influencer can be a dirty word that's just monetization or what the goal is, right? But there's also some really great things happening. It depends. I think you can tell motives really easily. I think you can tell motives and and like reasons for making the content, Like some of the stuff you look at and scratch your head and it's like goodness that makes money, but it does because it gets views and then there's other people that do things just because the, you know, for the love or the want to do something. It's interesting people that like people keep asking me like why, why I started the podcast, what was, what was in my mind about it.

29:16 I don't have a great answer yet. I just like talking to people. So I don't know. I don't. I don't have a great answer, but. You like talking? No. And I don't know. I I don't. I don't know, but I know it's not. I'm probably not going to make millions of dollars, but if I did, it's cool. But, man, I don't know. You know, Speaking of sports, talking heads too, I saw this morning, you ever see that that old clip where Richard Sherman was on First take and just laid in to Skip Bayless? I'm like, I'm better than you at life. Skip Bayless, I heard this morning that Skip Bayless, now that Shannon Sharpe retired, is putting together like a new lineup. I don't know the show is going to be called or anything, but I guess Richard Sherman is going to be one of the people on it. Like it seems like he's going to have like a First Take vibe, like rotate through people.

30:08 And I'm not a First Take fan. I'm not a Skip Bayless fan. I I don't. I think that, like, knee jerk reaction is the type of content that I don't like. Like I like, like authentic true content, like the shock value. Like I think the Cowboys are the pastor and This is why. But that might be like something I tuned into because like thinking about that history and where they are, it's probably going to lead to a, you know, an interesting conversation. But here's the weird thing about it. I I spent like 5 minutes just digesting this news this morning and thinking about it and Skip Bayless being who he is.

30:51 Even that interview with Richard Sherman, he probably ate it up on the inside. He probably loved it because he knew it was going to go viral. He does it purely for the attention seemingly, and I think he probably loved it. So there probably is no bad blood there, like they probably shut the cameras off and he probably said, hey, thanks Richard, good interview. A great episode. Like, seriously killed it. Yep. Well, didn't he make some really crazy remarks about DeMar Hamlin? Like to keep playing. Like, I know that's old now, but like, just like you said, that's the type of like, super salacious, like predatory content. Like just just for the views, just for the memes, whatever it is.

31:32 Like, yeah, I don't maybe gravitate towards that, but it is, I mean. Any good or any news is good news, right? Any press is good press. Like, I feel like he embodies that saying. Yeah, yeah. And Shannon was. Shannon seemed pretty good on that show. I I've watched probably a total of, you know what, two hours the whole time they were on together. But it was all probably clips on TikTok and stuff. Less for me, yeah. It's it's tough watch. I don't know how it stays on so long and keeps going, but at the same time it's a, you know, that's the weird symbiotic relationship between how sports has gotten where it is and then what happens around it and how you can make money.

32:17 And the content made it similar to the influencers is kind of where I wanted to circle that into like there's there's some cool stuff. Did you watch? Did you watch Quarterback yet? I have not. You told me to watch it. I'd. I haven't gotten around to it. It's good. And Peyton Manning was in Green Bay like a week or two ago. Really. I'm assuming that that means he was probably here to try to convince Jordan Love to do it. It could be for something else, but I hope so that I think that'd be super interesting. But the first season was great and it was really well produced and it that's the kind of content I'm looking for. Like, yeah, true.

32:58 Behind the scenes stuff, It's good. Yeah, I'll have. I have to check it. It's on my list. I know. Like similar to that. Did you watch any of the Untold series on I Just Watched the Johnny Manziel. One, OK. I haven't watched that one yet. I watched shoot. The name escapes me. It was the Notre Dame linebacker with like, yeah, yeah, I mean, some of those are really good. Like, I don't know, just a really interesting look. Yeah, behind the scenes, cuz you don't get that right as a fan we get, we get the, the polished view that, you know, the press team is approved or like, you know, the really glamorous, like the highlight reel. Right. And I feel like that's a lot of social media now is just it's a high right of your life, right?

33:39 You can't live in 32nd clips. There's a lot more that goes on in your day. But it sure looks good sometimes. Yeah, but yeah, those those are really interesting. Is it similar to that, the Banzel one? Yeah. Oh yeah. Well, even the quarterback like, oh, a little. Or is it more just it follows them for a season. Quarterback gives you a unique look into what they actually do to do their jobs well. One thing I'll say from quarterback is I came out with a strange appreciation of Kirk Cousins. Like I never, I never thought that that would really be something that came out of my mouth. Like I I've I've thought Kirk Cousins is an underrated, as underrated as an NFL quarterback for quite some time. Time. Like he's really solid.

34:19 He gets gets the short end of the stick all the time, largely because of how media portray him. But I came out with a really strange appreciation of Kirk Cousins. He is like one of the most normal dudes you'll ever see and his commitment to his craft is unbelievable and you can see how he balances. A large part of it is how they balance it with their full lives. So like how he stays present as a father and a husband was really interesting to see and I think shines a new light on the athlete per se.

34:59 Because I think we're in a place where athletes, because of the platform they have have become these figures that people look at sometimes as like other otherworldly or like not like you're fellow human right. It's like with people feel like they can disparage them from a keyboard or like just be complete like you know animals against other people for lack of a better term in my mind right now. And I think quarterback did a really good job of humanizing that and and showing that and that's why I would be excited to see Jordan Love's journey this year. It would probably be a huge distraction, but at the same time, like, talk about something.

35:47 Remove all of the sport from it. Remove the absolutely crazy love of the Green Bay Packers that Wisconsinites have, all the tumultuous stuff that happened with Aaron Rodgers front and office management. Remove all that stuff Jordan Love is a human right now. Can you step into those shoes and think of like, wow, here, this is my turn to do this. Just an unbearable amount of pressure to perform. In a sport where your performance is measured in like fractions of a percent of, like, decision making, right, Or like as a quarterback, split seconds, right, like that's all it takes. I don't know. Yeah, I'm glad I'm not that. There's a reason that I'm not a professional athlete besides MY57 build and like my slightly pudgy.

36:32 Yeah, whatever. There are reasons, those are some of them, but I think overall it's because I don't know if I can handle the pressure, man. It'd be that'd be must see TV for me to be able to take take that in like you and a lot of them are built for, right? That's how you get to that stage in the 1st place. Like, he's no stranger to a field stadium playing football, but at the same time there is a certain amount of weight that comes with that whole situation that like probably is making him. I'm assuming it's his choice if he wants to be on the show or not. Making him think, do I want to show this to the whole world?

37:12 Like does everybody want to see this? What if it ends up the other way. So one of the other quarterbacks on on on or the QB the first season was Marcus Mariota. He had a really rough year. That's a rough look, yeah, because it was it this past season, This past season, Oh yeah, he got benched. And then he remember he left the team weirdly. And it showed that from a different angle about like how he kind of thought he was doing the right thing because it was time to like, let another person in. Maybe he was going to be a distraction and he wanted to get, I think it was his knee. You want to get his knee fixed for his next opportunity, right? Which we can all understand and empathize. All of those things.

37:53 The media at the time, dude quit on his team. Dude, you know that doesn't want to do this. Marcus Mariota, where are you? And I think that stuff, not just sports media, media in general. Those are quick clip culture and our snippet of the thing that everybody will listen to probably isn't always the best thing. And that's weird for two marketing guys to talk about. Well, it's it's context, right? Everything we say is in context and social media does a great job of removing that context because that doesn't the context doesn't get clicks, right? The him abandoning his team because he has a knee surgery doesn't sound good. But him abandoning his team is a great headline. I'm definitely reading that They click banded me right into it. Yeah, it's almost insidious sometimes, but it's also the world we live in and the job sometimes too. I don't know.

38:45 Yeah, how do you navigate that dynamic? It's not easy. I think you gotta be able to push back sometimes and say. We can't do that or that is a gross misrepresentation. I think in marketing sometimes we get the finger pointed ass like all you do is bend the truth and I'll bend it a little bit, but not, you know, like you can bend it, but we're not breaking it or sidestepping into creating a parallel universe here. Like we got to stay within our bounds. Like if we say we're doing this, we have to do it or we have to like make a really good effort to do it or I'm not comfortable saying it. So in a very like. Serious. But I think, like, sometimes it's hard conversations like, yeah, absolutely.

39:28 That isn't happening. And here's why. And this is the perception that we'll have if we say this and then don't follow through or can't back it up with data. And then other times it's, you know, here's an alternative. I think those are a little more well received. Yeah. But sometimes it has to be. No. Yeah. Or it has to be like, let's look at some guiding factor if there's an institution you're working with, like their values. Is there something you can lean on to be like, hey, we stand for this and this is definitely not that. I don't know. What do you do? Yeah, the ethical piece of marketing is has always been fascinating to me, and I've always severely slanted towards the side of being transparent and authentic like you have to be in. I think we live in such a good time right now that's making that happen because everything's available. So like I think there was probably a stretch in like you know the 80s, nineties, maybe even earlier or later that like people could get away with just telling a story. Actually great correlation here.

40:34 This is great in the in the untold for Johnny Manziel. Spoiler alert, Just the small one though, His one of his like best friends was his pseudo manager in college and Johnny started signing autographs for money. Obviously, you're not supposed to do that. Yeah, that was before. Before Io and his buddy made-up this whole crafted this whole PR story about how Johnny Manziel came from oil money. Yeah, that. Yeah, I remember that. And then he did. It's not true. It's not. It's not true. So it was just from like autographs or like other deals that he got on the side throwing out the money. Like his, his family has some money, but not billions of dollars of oil money.

41:19 Yeah, that was said. And like, I remembered that too, like. And they showed clips of, like, actually Skip Bayless and a couple other people talking about this kid comes from oil money, he doesn't need it, blah blah blah. It was all fake. It was all a crafted narrative. Just so he won't get busted for spending like copious amounts of money. Because he's getting it from these? Yep cuz at that time he like they show a clips of him like he was the biggest star in in America. He was he was partying with LeBron. He was they have a clip of Drake talking about being great friends with Johnny Menzel like it seemed like everywhere he was like he was flinging money. So his pseudo manager, I he his best friend, crafted this narrative about him coming from oil money that was completely not true.

42:05 I mean, that friend is a real one. Like he definitely put out for. It was like I got your back, but yeah, and that takes a turn. I'm not going to throw that story out at the end, but that takes a turn. But yeah, circling back to what, you know, what we were talking about, the, I think the the time that we find ourselves in with the ease of finding information and what people can do and how quickly that information can spread is a good thing. I think that holds marketers accountable. And I I think it's really, really important to make sure you're telling the authentic truth because now and probably always to a certain extent at least the people who've done it well over the years, those two things are synonymous with organizational or business success.

42:59 Whatever you're trying to do, being authentic about what that is, knowing what and why you want to do what you're doing and then marketing, it's their job to share that story. So how content is created and shared, I think is bigger than ever in in marketing. And what that content is has to reflect and embody the activity and the value of the organization. And if it doesn't, you need to have those hard conversations you were talking about and that can be difficult. The great thing about it is that if you're doing that, there's always a landing spot for you and that's easy to convey. If you're with an organization that says that, you know that's not it.

43:45 If they want, if they want to try to deceive or something, which I think happens significantly less than it did at some point. But you know, the stories like that still say that it can. You know, if everybody, especially with like if you're shooting for the PR angle of marketing, if you know how to pull those strings and wires a little bit, a lot of those people are talking heads, man. They they got it on a prompter and they're going to read it and they're really good at emphasizing it in a certain way. Or like I always kind of joke that like some of some of those people, although I respect their craft, their craft is being good at emoting and reading as opposed to like the the actual telling the story of it. And if you can still tug those wires, you know, it's a little bit different.

44:33 But I think, to get back to the original point, that there's always a landing place for the person who can do that effectively and tell the story. Yeah, I feel like we have a lot of great orators in our time, right? They can speak, but there's not a lot of substance once you dig sometimes. Sometimes. Yeah, that's a gross generalization. But just to that point of that person that you're describing and actually Speaking of like crazy marketing, like authentic, amazing. Did you see? I think it was France's Woman's World Cup. Like add no. I've got to lay this up cuz it's just crazy. I saw this and I was like sharing it with my team. I was like this is like authentic, amazing inspirational marketing.

45:16 So they had a whole highlight reel, like maybe a 15 second montage of it looked like the men's team their best plays of the year. And I mean like bicycle kicks into the goal like they're doing like some crazy stuff, just just amazing. And I'm not a huge soccer football fan, but I was like drawn in. I was like, yeah, this is sick highlight reel and it says like, you know, This is why we support. And then in in French it was the men's team and then it showed. But really and it was all edited. They were all highlights from the women's team and they just edited it. They do in post to have the men's faces on them. So then it went through the highlights, the real version. And you're like, oh Dang, like this is like, they got us, but I'm in it now.

46:02 I want to watch like, it was just so authentic and like, you know, we shouldn't just care about men's sports. Like, this is a big moment for our country and there's so much national pride. And like, so just it was such a great idea, so well executed. I was like, like, so I had to share with my team. I was like, you guys gotta check this out. So that was sweet. That's great. I'll have to check that out. So what they do? They superimposed or like change the visuals to men's bodies? Yeah, they in post, they change the faces and like everything. And then you find out, right, I have the big reveal is this is the women's team all along and you're like, why would I care any less about these highlights objectively, right. Yeah. But men's sports are bigger, right? It's a bigger market. Yeah.

46:44 So they were just trying to feed on that market and like I said, super well executed and all props to the women's team. I mean, obviously they're super talented and like the wins World Cup has been interesting to watch. I got up. I got up early one night, certainly like 1:00 AM, three am first. I haven't watched any. Yeah, well. Didn't turn out great for us. Yeah, if you didn't miss, so you got up early to watch the US. Yeah, just. A little bit. Or like, was it the one they lost in the round of 16? No, it was the last pool play, OK Yeah, they got in. But their last pool play when they tied. Yeah. And then they, like, looked like they were happy about it. Like, yeah, I don't know. I know there was some controversy about, like sportscasters, like berating them for celebrating, just making it like you should be dominant. And I actually don't mind that.

47:31 I think you need to keep people honest. And if you're like, hey, in a competition, you celebrate the winner. This is the World Cup. You don't get participation trophies. I don't know. Is that really bad to call out? Yeah, I don't think so either. You play, You play sports to win. Yeah. You know, Yeah, there's a lot of. That's why I play. Yeah, it's completely fine to do so Yeah, there's a I don't know much about the conversation but it sticks in my head cuz just cuz I saw it like yesterday, the day before. My wife likes watching that. I think it started off as YouTube content and now it's on Hulu where they eat like the hot wings and the interviews. With Sean Evans, I think, I don't know, is that what it is, the hot wings? Yeah, where they eat the hot wings and there's the, you know, it's across the table.

48:16 But Terry Crews was on there and Terry Crews, I I was just like in passing. I didn't watch the whole episode or anything. But I saw Terry Crews and he said something about he doesn't believe in competition or he doesn't believe in competing. I've heard others say that I don't know the, I don't know like the methodology behind that. I'm I'm sure there's like a more than just that concept, you know, like that comes into you know, existence from somewhere. I don't know if you ever heard of that, but I I don't, you know, I I like, I like competing. I enjoy it. And I I think there's a there's a certain amount of that scenario is kind of weird because like, they did make it to the next round. Although they were the glaring favorites, they didn't lose. And that's a weird thing in soccer cuz you can tie. That's a weird thing in general.

49:04 Yeah. But I mean, I don't think I've ever been excited about not losing, Right. Right. Like that's yeah, you made it like that is good, right? You, you made the cut. You are advancing. Granted, you didn't make it any further really. Realistically, like had you played another game or not, you still went home well before. You probably should have. Yeah. And part of it was that it made their next game significantly harder, right? Like there was this path. I read a story about how kind of like the FIFA powers that be had scheduled around when they thought the the games would be because they thought the US would be there. So I guess that kind of threw their plan for a loop when they lost because they were the favorites.

49:45 So there's still a loss in that non loss, right? Yeah, yeah. No, it's it's interesting. The Terry Cruz thing though, the competition, I can kind of empathize a little bit, but maybe not in the way that he meant. I don't know. I don't know the context. But I think that neither do I. That's good. That's even better. Let's go on that then because it'll be more fun to just like assume we know this all. So Terry CUSA, like, I think we get stuck up in everything's a competition. Yeah. Like we we take that mentality and apply it to our life. Like you don't have to win every argument. You can disagree and that is totally acceptable and you can give a valid reason and you know, talk to someone and. If they don't see eye to eye with you, like at least they have a new perspective.

50:31 Maybe when they go and analyze their side or their belief and they can say, well, he brought up an interesting point, they brought up an interesting point or even in the workplace, right you don't have to win. It might be you need to accomplish a goal or you have to do your job, but that doesn't mean that you have to beat other people or put them down to do it. Granted, that's the extreme case, but I think there's something to be said for that mentality and that might be just being optimistic or whatever that looks like. But I kind of appreciate that if that's what the context it was meant in. That's glaringly true. Yeah. And I mean, I think that's a, that's a piece of the conversation, important part of of that that whole that whole conversation because there's a place for competing.

51:17 So when I say that, Yeah, when I say that, I mean I should say I like competing in sports, you know? But at the same time, competition does bleed over to places where it could be more of like a all for one, one for all mentality would be better for everybody. That's a really good point. Yeah, and I'm not saying that you shouldn't have tenacity or drive like it's good to have goals in life and to go for them. Like I'm all for that, or like to take risks and you want to better yourself for your situation or whatever your motivation is, right? Like that is amazing. I think those are all admirable. But yeah, So what you're saying like that, what's collect around a goal and accomplish it together that could be missed sometimes in that competition? I don't know, like win a nine hole golf league.

51:58 Well, I mean, not to toot the horn, yeah, but if the horn could be tooted. I think we should mention it at least three more times. Just so you know. I'll wear a medal from now on. Just waiter, actually. I haven't been too insufferable at home about that. I'll have to really dial that up this weekend. Make sure Brooke really gets the brunt of that one. Brooke has a competitive drive, right? You said she's quite the competitor. Definitely more competitive than me, but she's also more athletic. So I think like, her skill cap is higher. Like I'm probably getting close to mine for most things like, you know? But she has like she's very athletic, she's very driven.

52:39 So I think that also is like she wants to be good at everything. And she's willing to try and get there. Like she'll put in the work. Like we just got a mat for our backyard so we can hit golf balls in our backyard and you can hit a full sand wedge and that's it. That's how much yard space we have. And then we have a net and stuff like that so we can hit some other clubs. But she every night out there practicing her swing, she got a lesson like it's awesome to see and also to share in that journey. And it's fun that now she well, I don't know if this is fun, but now I get some critiques. Like, you know, when I got my instructor. Lesson You're not really doing this the right way and I'm like I was self-taught and it goes straight. So like well mostly straight.

53:19 Well, three out of five, I don't know. There was one yesterday. Went almost 90 degrees right. Yeah, well, that was one. You're allowed to have one bad shot around. Yeah, that was bad, though. That was like bad. But I haven't done that in a while. That was, it almost was like a boomerang. I thought it was gonna start coming back, actually. But no, it's not fun to share in that. You know, passion or sport or whatever. So, yeah, you know, before we move on from the marketing stuff too much, I wanted to talk a little bit about, I've been intrigued. We've talked a lot about like how we both got to where we are in our careers and our educational journeys. I want to talk a little bit about yours. There's so much value in there, like how how did you diagnose?

54:02 So you started off in it's aeronautics engineering, aerospace, aerospace engineering. Yeah, aeronautics is like strictly planes. OK, nautical. Well, oh, and you were gonna go see the lizard people. Yeah, we were going to Mars. No, There actually was like a poll in one of my first classes ever. Like, I think 80 were in my cohort through the aerospace program. And how many people wanna go to Mars? And like, I was one of only three that didn't raise my hand. I was like, I kinda like. Earth. Yeah. So aerospace engineering, it was, I mean, their focus areas within there. But it was anything from, you know, fuselage build for planes to rocket propulsion to supersonic math, which after like Mach 5 and six gets really wild.

54:52 Not even going to try. Yeah, no. So yeah, I started. That's a term like supersonic math is something that's. Well, the math models for supersonic speeds. OK, what happens in colliding particles is like really hard to model. It just flight is hard at really fast speeds. We'll just ended at that. Like, there's a reason like the Blackbird, the, you know, our best stealth fighter ever made any like Kelly Johnson and Skunk Works would fly like 80,000 feet. There's a reason that it would leak fluids when it was on the runway because the friction when you fly that fast. Causes everything to expand, so that would close up the gaps in the fuse lodge.

55:34 That's crazy. So like just the the what happens with friction and air and aerodynamics at high speeds is crazy Mind boggling. Like shreds planes. So yeah. Anyway, that's not what you asked, but I just don't know. I wanted to talk about all of that because there it's clear you're clearly still passionate about it at places and it's something like you keep your active pilots license, I know that. So we'll probably talk about that a little bit too. But like the, I think the very unique part about it, like a lot of people go through that, right, that that transition of, you know, trying to figure out what you want to do and then ultimately landing somewhere for a little while and then you probably change again as you move on. But I think the really interesting thing about yours is that you're still passionate about it and you know a ton about it and you did it like a lot of people in that scenario.

56:22 So, like, to take my scenario in the example, like, there's no way I was going to keep doing it because I just stopped, you know, Like, I just stopped. And no one was ever going to let me be an engineer because I stopped trying to be an engineer. You were like three years in, you had passed all your classes. You did a good job. Like, of course you did. You. You was extremely smart individual. You passed all your stuff. And then three years into the thing, you're like, I'm going to be a creative writer. Like, that's really unique, man. Well, I mean, so I didn't really know. So it starts further back. Like high school for me, I was good at math and science. I I took like I didn't have math classes I could take at my high school. Like dual credit really wasn't an option in the UP, Wasn't a very well funded school.

57:10 So they're just like, well, you're good at math and science, like engineering is the logical path. A buddy of mine was a year old. They're really looked up to him. Super great guy. He's an engineer, super successful now. And I just like, yeah, like he's doing it like I've been all his classes. Like I'm going to do it too. I didn't really know another option and I knew that my parents said how did I mean, you're going to college, you're going to college. That wasn't something that they did. My mom had a one year certificate in baking. Management opened a bakery for a few years, but really they weren't full time. College students didn't have any degrees like associates or. Anything like that. So that was, you're going to college? So I was going to college. I applied to one school, the University of Michigan somehow got in, and I was like, the only reason I picked them is they're the closest aerospace program.

57:54 Because it's it's pretty. It's pretty nonchalant to say somehow got in. Because I think there's there's very few listening with the academic accolades that that you had. Maybe, Yeah, I was. I was involved. But I I wanted to go there because the next closest school is like. Across the country for aerospace. And the reason I wanted aerospace is cuz I googled at the time what the high paying engineer was cuz of course if I'm gonna be it I wanna make money. So I was like well what's the highest paid one? Like yeah, why not? I could like do that. So I wasn't like super passionate about planes or anything until I got in one. And then between my freshman and sophomore year I was able to knock out my whole pilot's license and I was like, yeah flying's cool but I don't really like the engineering part. Like I had internships, didn't like them. Had a few of them worked at a startup, which was. Really cool, fast-paced, weird consulting, but it wasn't something that I could see myself doing. Worked at United Airlines, a big company, saw that side of it and I was like, I don't want to do this for the next 30 years. And I had.

58:54 At that time I was working towards a minor in the history of ancient or philosophy of ancient religion. And I did a lot of writing. And just like, I mean, what do you think you're going to write about when you're talking about that? Like, it's silly stuff. Like if you actually look back at, you're like, this stuff's been argued about for like 2003 thousand years. I'm not adding anything new, but it's fun. It's like a mental exercise. And I was like, I really like that side of like, writing and just engaging. So I started like looking up things. And yeah, I don't know. I took a creative writing class at another college and I was like, this is fun. I like storytelling. I like speaking. And I was like, I like all of the things that this encompasses and I'm not terrible at it. Like let's go this way.

59:38 I don't know why I think I gave my parents a heart attack. Like lost a lot of scholarship money. Like that was also, I think a decider was my scholarship was engineering specific and I wasn't able to afford or going to afford going to the University of Michigan without a scholarship. So if I got out of engineering, and I probably didn't advocate my myself, I probably could have talked to people about finding other money. Like, that's one thing that I've learned now is that there's a lot more help. Like, I just felt helpless. I stopped going to class my last, like, semester, so I passed every class until that last semester. I ended up skipping a final for one so to set the record straight. OK, so that was a fail. Yeah, yeah. But if you don't go to the final, it's. It's a little tough, but at that point I decided that I wasn't gonna be an engineer and I didn't know how else to do it cuz I was too immature.

1:00:27 Besides, like I failed out. I didn't know I could just switch, cuz college was my goal and I was told that I was gonna be an engineer and I was like, yeah, I'll be an engineer and I didn't know there was an alternative or I felt at the time that's so stupid. It's stupid when I say this out loud, but that's really what I felt like and I needed that to spur me in a new direction. Yeah, absolutely. So that's. How I got to creative writing and then marketing. Yeah, and well, identifying that is awesome because that, like, the process there got you to somewhere that you were happy about. It's funny because the the overlaps of our two stories are nearly identical. Also an engineer or perspective engineer. Perspective engineer academic scholarship only for engineering and failed out unknowingly at the time probably on purpose hadn't didn't have the capacity to identify that yet which is a whole another conversation right. Because like like we think about talking about the Johnny Manziel until that's a 20 year old kid making grown person decisions. Same thing for us.

1:01:32 You know, I was, I was 19 at that time. I I wasn't. I I wasn't in a position to have the ability to make the decisions I needed to. Yeah. Which is a large reason about why I decided to transition careers, you know, even a little bit later in life. Again, because I I wanted to do something where I could help people in that situation because there is there, there are so many ways out of that situation other than other than that exit. But at the time, I can completely understand what you're saying. The way out is to say, oh couldn't do it fail, just couldn't do it. When really could have done it, didn't want to do it. Yeah, Not not passionate.

1:02:20 Couldn't, couldn't even muster the the gumption to be like just get this one more assignment done and go to the exam. Like, yeah, yeah. So I mean that that's fascinating. But like the the identification factor is key about being able to pick out what you did actually like and and move on from that and then who knows what the next thing is. It might be something completely different. But that skill, that ability to be able to identify that stuff, I think comes with a certain level of a combination of experience and maturation, right. And experience is a large piece of that, that, like you said, high schools in smaller towns, you're good at math and science. Here's what you should do.

1:03:06 Nothing against that person. That's probably the that's the best advice they could give. That's the same exact stuff I got. You're good at math and science here. You engineers and I was always relatively decent at communicating with people, so it was told to me if you can be an engineer and communicate with people, you can make a lot of money. So same thing like engineering managers in your future, like you've got all these things like also probably the only guy in engineering that got a philosophy minor and like was trying to do writing on the side, but that's neither here nor there. But yeah, same thing. It's like all the path is made for you, like not only you're an engineer, you have a personality, which I take exception to. I have a lot of friends. Our engineers have 100 personalities 100%.

1:03:47 They're just maybe not as outgoing all the time. Like I don't have an off switch. Yeah. Or they communicate a little bit differently. Yeah. But yeah, absolutely. I I agree. I agree wholeheartedly where they, they get kind of undersold at times a little bit. But man, you know, you you think about that, that journey and everybody goes through it. So I thought it was important to dig a little deeper into what we've talked about. Yeah, and I think what I've learned since and over the years now is. Taking that time from identifying I don't like to taking action and shortening that as much as possible. Cuz it was probably a year and a half where I was like starting like my grades. I was still passing but now I'm instead of A's I'm at B's or like I'm not putting in the work.

1:04:30 I'm not going to the labs anymore. Like I just knew the minimum to get by cuz I was already like I don't like this. I was so disengaged, but I didn't know that I should switch and. Over the time now, I'm like okay. I don't like something. I can either stop, I can change something, or I can go in like a new direction. There are options, and shortening that time from identification to action is like something I really strive to try to be mindful of when I encounter situations like that. Yeah, absolutely the the. So spending a while as a career advisor, that time frame frustrated so many people of that you can't, you know you can't make this decision in the day. You need to, you need to consult people around you. You need to take some time reflecting and think about that stuff.

1:05:17 And it's all unnatural things, things that we don't allow ourselves in our culture to do. In general, people don't allow themselves time to reflect on themselves and think and consider what they like and enjoy and why they enjoy those things. Because you could still enjoy math, but maybe in a different way or for a different reason. Maybe it's because you're really methodical in liking doing things in order or something like that. In that time, frustrated people so much, man, because I'd be like I'd they'd leave our meetings with a, you know, a short to medium list of things to do that I would recommend. Like talk to this person in your circle.

1:05:59 Think about why you like doing this. Think about why you told me, the three people that you'd go to dinner with, why you picked those people, not just who you picked. And then we're going to talk in a week. And a lot of times emails would come in that week saying, you know, I'm so glad I took this time. Can we meet earlier? Can we do that? But there's always that. It's that unavoidable reflection and thought time that's Uber important. That is not easy. That's another slow burn. Yeah, and I don't like that. You know, me. My personality is like, go, go, go. Like, I just want to move.

1:06:39 Yeah, I have trouble with this, like sit still, be introspective. I just want to do the thing. Yeah, like 100% do the thing. Yeah. Yeah, man, that's wild. Boy, we could go a lot of different. What do you think about this table? I like it. I was. I was wondering if we could count the rings and figure out how old I am or how old is that. Might be that math part coming out though. Like I like to quantify things but it looks as sweet. We could probably estimate you know if I do this is five rings, so if I do 101520308540 and they get tighter in the middle.

1:07:20 So I think you're probably had a pretty good guess, I bet it's between 80 and 100 I would say. Yeah, that's impressive. It was massive. It was weird buying this because I bought it. How do you find this? Yeah, well that actually is a good question. Really good question. I was looking for a unique table for the podcast and I knew I wanted it to have something to do with Maple. Like I wanted it to be made of Maple. You're a Maple syrup producer too, like you. You get to the scale of the I learned some lessons from you. You have an operation, just you have good equipment too. I mean, equipment makes a huge difference to cut down time. Yeah, I knew I wanted it to be something to do with Maple, so I was searching for and I love, I've always loved live edge stuff like this.

1:08:08 But I was thinking more along the lines of, like potentially I would cut down a tree that was, you know, nearing the completion of its life or something and make a table out of it. And I found this from a really cool dude just South of Green Bay away is kind of in between like Green Bay and Oshkosh geographically. And he had a different one that was really unique looking. It was significantly smaller than this. And it was completely done. And we had sent some messages back and forth. He's like, you know, I got some bigger ones too, Okay, Let's see what you got. So he sent me the pictures of a couple and and there was this one that from the picture looked massive, like Okay got to see that relatively impulsive.

1:08:52 So drove down there the next day and like this thing was sitting there and I didn't really explore the opportunity. It was unfinished at the time. It wasn't done. It didn't have the epoxy on. It had this big gap in it. That's filled. That's filled, yeah. And some character. Yeah, absolutely. Seeing some things. Yeah, dude, that's the coolest part about trees. Obsessed with trees. But went down there, saw this thing, knew I was going to have to have it. He the price he had given me was a completed table. And my motherinlaw's husband is relatively handy with this kind of stuff. So I said, what would you, what would you part with it for? Just the stand and this big chunk of wood.

1:09:35 So we came to a deal and I bought this chunk of wood, which is a weird thing to do because I have Maple trees everywhere. Make Maple syrup. Yeah, but nothing this huge that was cut so well, Like, he cut it to make a table out of it. Yeah, So it was well worth it to me. And then Kevin was able to, you know, do some epoxy work to the top of this, filled it in and it just turned out awesome. And he, he messaged me about this dripping stuff down the side. And he was like, do you want this epoxy too? Like he could have epoxy inside. And I was like, that looks exactly like dripping Maple SAP. Like we have it does. We have to leave that. I was trying to lick it before, yeah, where the camera came.

1:10:16 I'm glad we just waited till I was done with that. But yeah, so that's that's the story behind the table, and I couldn't be more excited about it. It's a statement piece. Yeah, man. It brings the space together. Yeah, So that was pretty cool. How long have you? How long? Like, when were you introduced to making Maple syrup? Like when do you first remember seeing Maple SAP being boiled and collected? Really young. I mean four or five. But I did a science fair project on it in like 6th grade where I took a little stump and I drilled a hole and through the top and through the side and put a sponge in there and filled with water so it would drip out at like a speed that was consistent.

1:10:57 So not very scientific. I just put more sponges until it slowly dripped. But then like I really got into it and I made candy and like all the kinds of stuff with it. So then I was a little more active help. My my grandparents were the ones that had the sugar shack and the Maple trees and. Between like 80 and 120 trees or something. I'm not sure on the exact number. I was just the helper always when I was younger and then as I got older I was at college or whatnot or working now and so yeah, I don't know, but it was young. Did you always make it with your family too or no, we're only you'd never know it by like joining the Sugar Shack now. But we started I think, I think this year was our sixth year, something like that.

1:11:40 And did you make it with someone else first or did you just like research? And like, I want to do this. It was always me and my dad, my dad and I from the beginning. I did most of like the research about it. And my dad is like, he's a he's just a real handy dude, you know, like, he can, he can make stuff out of. He's a Wisconsin gent. Absolutely. He can make stuff out of nothing. He but it still amazes me. He built our whole sugar shack out of pretty much just stuff he had like laying around in his woods. It's fantastic. And so he brought like that side of that that like and still does brings that like creative building side to it. And then I'm I just bring like that that constant continuous improvement mentality to it. We're like, I just like to do things as efficiently as possible.

1:12:28 So I love learning new things and I search it out and then I get obsessed with it. And now the combination of those two things has us in a place where we make quite a bit, and it's just super, super fun. And it's great that it's just something I get to do with him every year. And it's a great time to get out of the, you know, out of the house. By that time, you're ready to get outside. You're itching to be out of out of the house. Winter tends to drag on some years. Yeah. Sometimes I I laugh sometimes because I like, I like and I like winter. Like I firmly belong in Wisconsin or like here or north of where we are. Because, like, you know, July doesn't treat me well. Really. So I'm. I'm here. But at at the same time there is a certain freshness about spring that you're ready to change and and just like, start that new year.

1:13:16 So that's a great time to do Maple syrup. But that's why that's why I decided to buy the table. I knew I wanted something. Maple by happenstance. Life's a really weird thing that points you in the directions that you don't know you should find. And I connected with this dude who had this big old Maple. I think he called it a cookie. That's a word. I guess I a word in what he does because he made some unbelievable looking stuff and I think he called this a Maple cookie. I I couldn't believe like how thick it was and how. Heavy is this. It's pretty heavy. You can ask producer Dan. He helped me carry it up before we started Today. It's it's heavy enough. It's.

1:13:57 Not like it's heavy enough and fun fact, it's not even connected to the pedestal yet. Just sitting on there, yeah. So I'm gonna put some like lag bolts in it later today or maybe over the weekend. I'll try not to break it. Yeah, it's probably it would shake, but it's heavy enough that it's not gonna fall and if it does, like whichever way it goes like we're not going to be a happy. No, I'll flip instead of Bush. Yeah. Yeah. So you all you talked about Maple candy in there? I saw something cool. This was years ago and this is something that's like floated to the the back burner for me. But what was your candy process like? How'd you do it? So take the Maple syrup, bring it inside and then put it on the stove to get it really, really hot.

1:14:43 I don't, I don't remember the temperature. It's been a while now, but there was a certain temperature point we're shooting for. And then just boil it. I mean like almost like you're gonna make like. Caramel or something like that, right? You've got your butter and your brown sugar and you're going after it. That's a really weird description for that process. But do that. And then I just poured it into molds, like cool. And I made suckers. So you'd put sticks in there or just molds like little. I don't know, look like rip your barrels or something like just little circular molds or cylindrical molds. It was. It was easy. It's just all temperature. Same as actually making this up, right? You're looking for certain temperature points, You're looking for certain sugar content. You're trying to get that when you're trying to get to crystallized too, Yeah. Well, don't tell the hardcore Maple there's that, because it's density you're looking for which creates a temperature. That's that.

1:15:32 Sugar content though is a measure of density, cuz it's the amount of sugar content per whatever instrument you're making. A lot of people go wrong because the the temperature can be different even by the day. Yeah, well, that's barometric pressure. Like all that. It is more nuanced than I'm making it sound. I'm not trying to disparage Maple syrup and makers or enthusiasts. Yes, yeah, but yeah, it mostly is temperature. But the I asked because a few years ago I saw this thing. Still don't know if it's true, haven't explored it. But it's something that's one of those, like little worms that like dug into my mind and stuck where they. All they did to make the Maple candy was boiled it too far, got it too dense and dumped it in snow piles.

1:16:16 And it made like this moldable kind of like kind of like a taffy consistency that they rolled onto a stick and then it hardened like that and that. That was the Maple candy one, you know. One kind of bummer about that is that would be an expensive sucker, You know, because if you go too far, you have less product as is. And say you have 1/2 / 1/3 of a pint in there. You know that's like a $5 sucker that you're having, but it might be worth it. You never know, but I've always been curious if that would work. I don't remember how long they lasted, so I don't know if they're worth it like the suckers themselves, like it might have only been like 10, like 10 minutes. I don't know what your price point for 10 minutes of enjoyment are Maple syrup, but it depends on the day. I think that would work, cuz I've ever seen like people like with the taffy hooks, because I'd be the same concept right? Yeah, how fun does that job?

1:17:14 Look dude, I could do that for a while the with the taffy hooks and doing the different. Colors does sweat make it taste better? Because I would not be cut out for that job unless they have like a whole sweat band or on my forehead and like a catcher under my chin. It would be extra salty. That's taffy. I'm done everything. Like, is this like salted caramel? I was like, no, it's that's a Garret. That's a Garret product, man. That's where saltwater taffy comes from. That's that could be. Cuz it's gotta be hot, right? Cuz it's warm, but it's cool to a certain temperature where it's still pliable because when it fully cools it gets pretty hard. Yeah, I don't think I could do it. I think the radiant heat I would turn into something disgusting.

1:17:57 Yeah, you do get moist. Makes, I think. I sweat. Glands work. I think we talked about that one time you came, played basketball a couple times, and that's a that's an untalked about advantage in basketball. No one ever wants to guard the dude the. Slippery dude. Yes, shirts versus skins. I'll be skins all day, even if it's not like I'm not Pete Garrett physique right now. But I would do it because yeah, you can't. You try to put a hand on me. Like hand check, like great pass me. It works. It works. We all know it like that is definitely throwing me off my game and playing pick up all we're like if someone slimed right up I'm not coming like I'm gonna do the old age you go right by and I'll try to block.

1:18:41 Out I'll try to swipe as you pass. Make it look like I tried. If I don't get it, your big man downstairs problem because I'm not trying to play that game and like. Yeah, that's no, I sweat a lot. I don't know if it was like, that's why I was conditioned growing up and my dad was always like. I can't take more off. Y'all can put more on if you're too cold and that was that was our house model or motto. So we always kept the A/C low and I I like that to this day. Like oh me and heat. Yeah, not really matching, man. My wife's in the same boat. Samantha says the same thing. She likes a cold house. And we didn't think about like buying a two-story house, how the second story stays a little bit warmer to where you have the thermostat set.

1:19:22 You know she doesn't. Bedroom on the first or second floor for you second. Yeah, it's tough. Look, we got the same situation. That's how I know it's a tough look. It's like I'll go sleep in the basement tonight. Yeah, absolutely, man. Yeah, the weird things that our bodies do. All I can think about now is the the taffy making process. Like I I've seriously thought about that in my life. Like do though, does that kind of like work ever appeal to you, where it's more of like that you can see an immediate product from your output? I just had a conversation. Just it was a few months ago, I had a conversation and one of my engineering friends, he's a computer scientist, does a lot of code and he's like, you know how hard it is to develop a product that you can never touch?

1:20:12 And I never thought about that job specifically, right. But then I started thinking about even, you know, marketing, Like, I get to read what I write or other people do. So there's like sometimes something tangible or there's a magazine or some publication like, that's cool, right? But I'm not building anything that will be useful as a physical commodity. I'm not saying what I do isn't useful or beneficial at times. I do it because I think it can be, and it is. But the fact of building something that you can, like, hand to somebody, like here, enjoy this thing, seems awesome. And I wish sometimes I'd like sometimes I think about just the gratification of even like, I like messing around with some carpentry, like made a nice headboard for Brooke and I with switches and lights and all this stuff. We can plug our phones right into the headboard. We've got.

1:20:58 It's nothing crazy, but now I get to see everything like, yeah, like I we use that, like that is such a benefit like that has some great features that we didn't have before. So yeah, I I can identify at that. Are you in the same boat like? There's such an appeal to it. There's such an appeal to it that like I make it a point to do stuff like that because I have to get that outlet sometimes because there's such an appeal. I think that go and even past having like the tangible product at the end. Just having it be a more a more active thing to do. So I think a really relevant thing to this right now is the whole UPS conversation.

1:21:39 Where have you seen all that their wages are getting raised? Yeah, which is awesome. Really livable minimum wages now for full time. Like high salaries, right? Super high salaries, yeah, full time U, PS:. Drivers, I think they're raising it to like $44.00 an hour from like 40 or 41, something like that. And one, there's a couple couple layers to that conversation that we could talk about. But one, it's weird to me to see the, like the people comment to like the web trolls, you know, comment on that stuff and say. If they make 44, I deserve 54 because I do this and I do that. It's like, well, that's a really weird thing. Like, I looked up how much money UPS profited, and it's plenty. So they're doing just fine.

1:22:25 Why can't the employees have some of the people actually doing it, Which is awesome. It's a valued commodity. We all need stuff delivered. Places like and since Amazon like if it's not next day or two day, you're not competing in the market anymore. Yep. So it's a crucial need because like we are conditioned to think that now a. 100%, yeah, we we are the puppets on the strings that now expect that because we've gotten it, but what we can maybe talk about that more in a in a second. So I don't forget what I'm getting at. But no, the the, the aspects of that job, the actual job, thinking about doing that all day has a certain appeal to me.

1:23:09 At the end of the day, you know exactly the outcome. There's really not a whole lot to bring with you past that. You know it it's start again the next day which has an appeal, right. And just the the activity now I saw now we can dive into that whole money thing because I think it's an interesting thing to talk about. We could probably geek out a little bit, but the the classic media spin that we've been talking about in the show. The headlines have been like $170,000 a year are what you know they make. Well, if you do the quick math and you had 40 bucks an hour isn't getting you $170,000 a year. That's total compensation package. So they have a really aggressive pension that they put a significant amount of money in every year for the employees. That's added in, of course, Health insurance benefits, stuff like that.

1:24:02 And another thing is that UPS drivers work a ton of overtime from what I understand like especially busy times. My holidays peak times, I'm sure. Prime day? Absolutely. Just get. Slammed. Yep. So you're thinking about, OK, 44 dollars is going to turn into 66 really quickly. Now that's a boatload of money. But to me, again, I've always been kind of a workers rights junkie. Like, I like people making money. Like, you know, we've seen CEO salaries raise and raise and raise. Let's pay the people. So that's great. I think it's awesome that they're getting paid, but like, it's worth time. And 1/2 when they're on, you know, I'll wear 11 away from their family and let that person make their money.

1:24:44 It's weird to me that the online trolls get after him. And they're like, Oh my goodness, I need this because I do this. Yeah. And it's so that that might be that competition that Terry Crews was talking about, like that one. Yeah. Like, does that really impact you? And why am I mad about it? Because like you said that for everything that we're talking about, it's a benefit to the employees. Why don't we want more companies to create benefits for their employees or livable wages or increase salaries? I don't think anyone's gotten a pay raise and be like, darn, I got a pay raise this year. I wish they would have cut it. No, that's never happened in the history of the world. I feel like what? So why are you jealous? Like it's not a competition. Go be a UPS driver, then then you can compete with them and like, get your route done faster. I don't know.

1:25:28 I don't know what your metric is, if there's bonuses for that, but just like, OK, then you can do something about it though, like you can change. Yeah, I don't know. I always get mad when you complain and don't have a solution, or if you critique and don't have a good solution because I was just complaining or I don't know, I came up with some quote that I thought sounded smart and I regurgitated sometimes. Yeah, and that's a thing. I another thing I saw, I don't know how true this is, but it takes them a long time to be the full time certified status. A lot of people kind of toil through the part time for years waiting for that full time positional because I don't know if they have specific routes or how they do it. But yeah, I think that's a. That's a common misconception.

1:26:10 I think and I think some of it comes from, I don't know that everyone has a really solid understanding of like corporate profit structure and things like that. Because I think a lot of our lenses come from small business. That's what we are like. We all have a neighbor. We all have a friend. We all have a family member that owns a small business and understand the. Some of the hurdles that that can be to pay somebody what you wish you could. As a small business owner working broadcasting for a while, I saw that first hand of how small business is impacted compared to when you know what your bottom line is and you know what the place is making that can be really tough. That's a very, very different thing than U PS:'s goes through on a daily basis.

1:27:00 And they've made the decision to treat their employees well because they know it's going to end up good for business in the long run. We hear about everybody. This war for talent have been struggling to find people. I guarantee they're not at a loss of applicants to be full time delivery driver. No, I mean if you can increase your wages by what is that 10%, a $4.00 increase at $40 or something like that, yeah. Who's not going to take a 10% increase? Yeah, that's unheard of. I feel like in like besides like maybe where you have big bonus structures and day trading or something like that when you're hitting quotas or sales, but in a regular 9:00 to 5:00 or maybe in this area six to two like in manufacturing, you're not seeing that, you're over, you're seeing your cost of living increase.

1:27:44 And if you're lucky and it might not even keep up with inflation, especially these last few years, like, yeah, no, good for you. UPS, You said UPS. Yeah. OK, Yeah. Yeah. No, I'll have to look into that. I feel so uninformed. Man, But yeah, that so kind of get back. That type of work, there's a, there's a draw, there's a draw to it, and I think that outlet comes out, you know, for everyone in different ways probably, yeah. Tell me about that. So you made a headboard and you put outlets and stuff in it. Yeah, well, I it works. It has, though. I put a power strip on the back and then I ran chargers that came out.

1:28:24 And so there's individual, like instead of night stands, they're built into the headboard. There's little shelves, and then they have little chargers that sit and a little adapter, so you can just plug your phone right into the headboard, flush with it pretty much, and then you've got your phone charging. And then we've got individual lights with switches right on the side. So like, I read a lot, something I really enjoy. So if I'm reading at night, I can just toggle my switch on and off just by reaching over. I don't have to go flip a switch anywhere. So everything's wired. So it comes directly to your side. So I don't know. You know what boggles my mind is that you do it most of your reading on your phone. Oh well, I get the Kindle Unlimited app. It's a monthly subscription and I am the customer they didn't plan the app for.

1:29:07 I make sure I get every dollar worth cuz I read as much as possible. Yeah, so that's why I probably read most on my phone. I have every library membership in the county too, but rarely do I pick up a physical book nowadays. Samantha's been doing that too, but I do. You have a Kindle too? No, you don't. So you don't even have the Kindle. You have Kindle Unlimited and you just do it on your phone. Yep, See, she has the Kindle and the phone and there will be strategically placed throughout the house, I've noticed. Having a 2 year old, it's different when you get time to do something. So she'll have him placed like okay if he's sitting and eating for a while. Bang, I'm gonna read on my Kindle for a little bit. If she gets a chance to sit on the couch for a minute, boom, she can read her phone there.

1:29:47 Yeah, Ida. And it's probably. Easier than I think it would be, because it's the same as strolling, scrolling, you know, Like you just, yeah, and you can adjust the text size, everything like that. I do it cuz I like I'm the weird guy, like I'm waiting at a concert. There's an hour we got there an hour early. I'll SWIP up my phone and read like, I don't know, I need to pass the time. And if I'm not with a group, people like, whatever, I'll just read. So I like just having it on me all the time. I got that thing on me. Keep it loaded. Lots of books. Yeah, man. Well, yeah, So that's that's probably why I read on my phone. Just convenience. Yeah, I'm wondering if. I'm wondering if we're going to be able to hear my cat eating right now.

1:30:31 I forgot to. I forgot to lock the cat door and luckily he's leaving. That one. Doesn't really. That one cares so much about what people think. Yeah, don't touch that one, I was told. Yeah, he does this. So he's the classic cat where, like, he tries to intimidate anybody that comes in the house that doesn't live here. Like he literally thinks he's a lion. And he's ��3.00 or ��7.00 or whatever a cat is. So his couple of his go to moves. Someone will come over and like sit on our couch and he'll like perch right behind their head and just be like, I'm here, I'm here and he'll like look at him monitoring, monitoring, watching. And then he does this.

1:31:12 He plays this possum. Or like he's very fluffy and he's incredibly soft. And he just looks really cute. So he'll do this thing where he, like everybody thinks that he wants you to pet them All signs point to pet me, I'm a Kitty. And then as soon as the hand touches a cat, complete 180 and you're bit. So yeah, he he plays this, he plays this part really well of the villain. I think he thinks that he he could probably take down the wildebeest by himself, but. Yeah, he's something else. You don't touch. That one was a fellow cat person. Yeah.

1:31:52 Like, I came in right away. And what's the Gray one's name? Leo. Yeah, I was scratching Leo's chin. I'd. I don't know. My cat woke me up by sitting like, literally on my face today and the fluffy one. And I'm like, like inhaling cattail. And I was like, what is this? So I was like 4:00 AM and I was like, alright, like. We're putting you outside? No, just outside our bedroom. Like, occasionally, like, alright, we gotta actually sleep. So yeah, no, I I was going to pet them, but I will not. Cats are interesting creatures, man. They're a great patent companion and who says otherwise is a liar. It's like any creature that they all have their own personalities, though, and that's what's so wild to me. Like, we have one that is the biggest cuddler ever. Our little cat, our tabby Oliver and adorable and just if you are on the couch, he is on your lap or he's right next to you. If you're in the bed, he's in the bed laying against you. Like he just wants to be pet.

1:32:47 You bring him to the vet, he was gonna bite everyone. Like it's just like it's just crazy. The other one doesn't want to be by you, goes to the vet, doesn't care. Like it's just crazy their personality, like how much it switches in certain circumstances. Or just from cat to cat. Yeah, I've come around. I've come around like. Samantha is the cat person of the two the cat she's the you know she the cat came with her. Leo originally and then I've turned into a cat person. Like I'm like the I'm the come a longer you know I came with a dog. Sadly he's gone. But I was always, you know, I grew up with a dog same. And it didn't. It didn't take much. It didn't take you hear. You hear people like disparage cats a little bit. You're right. They they they're the people that don't understand cats. They don't get the vibe, Yeah.

1:33:31 And they're so low maintenance. I don't want to have to like, I don't know, I can go for a vacation. I don't have to worry about finding like a dog sitter. And we got like 5 litter boxes. It feels like around the house we got automatic feed or water fountain, like they're living in luxury. It's great. Like good for them. Yeah. So I don't know, I'm cat person with you. Producer Dan recently got a cat within the past few years, and he's come around too. We're slowly, slowly assimilating more people to our side, yeah. Yeah, they're cool little critters. Funky, strange. Same scenario, that one, you know. And then Leo is like the ultimate needy cat. He constantly wants to be petted, constant anywhere you are.

1:34:12 Like he's trying to dig in and and get his clothes as possible. And it's wild. Yeah. No, I I love pets. Having a pet in the house though, it's like I don't think I could do no pet. Yeah, I don't know. I've always grown up with pets. Like I had dogs growing up and parents always had labs predominantly. I'd say it'd be quiet, but cats are relatively quiet so it'd be, I don't know, mine are always knocking shit over like we're waking up in the middle of night. There's a big crash and like he knocked over one of our chairs from our table. Like how does a whole chair? How does a nine pound cat do that? Apparently if you slam your body at the back of the chair hard enough, it falls over, is what we've learned. Cuz he's now done it multiple times the whole like a wooden, like a wooden hardwood chair this gas a psycho. He's like human like he's a he's a kitten Wrecking Ball, a furry furry machine of destruction.

1:35:05 I don't understand. And like we have, Brooke bought like a 36 pack of their favorite toy one day and they're all under the couch. Not even one day. It's six hours. It's like, what are you doing? Like, come on. What? What's the favorite toy? What is it? It's a little like fluff ball. It's literally just a yarn ball, multi colored. And then the other one is like little plastic springs. So each cat has their favorite toy and they'll carry them around in their mouth and meow until you throw and play fetch with them. So you can just sit there and play fetch with them for minutes on end. Yeah, and I'll just go get it. Oliver, the older one for a long time, like until you stop throwing it and then he'll continue to meow until he gets sick of it. The younger 1 Onyx one or two times, he's not as trainable. He's got, he's the one that knocks over the chairs and stuff.

1:35:50 It's like a tornado every night. That's great. So he doesn't when he gets like the some people call it the zoomies, some people we call it getting in a mood. He does it when he starts running around and then yeah, we just hear things like crashing. We don't know what they are cuz we don't have that many things like out in our house. Like it's just my wife and I like freaking. I don't have that much stuff I feel like. But it's a good thing you don't, like, have your address. Outwardly, you know, it'd be easy to break and enter just Oliver. Just the cat. Or just Onyx, Just the cat. Yeah, I mean, we do lock our doors, but he might he might tear someone up though. He's a little psycho. He really is crazy. Yeah, we just found out. I I just saw it earlier in the week on our son can now reach the deadbolt of the of the door to get outside. So that'll be a whole another.

1:36:37 You got a runner? Yeah. Where? Yeah. He walked out into the garage all by himself yesterday. I was upstairs and I heard Samantha say, where you going? And she had to run out of the garage. He was out there all by himself. Just taking it, going for a drive off. Crazy. Yeah, it. Was awesome having you on the show, man. I appreciate you having me. It was fun.