Dr. Ryan Martin - Anger, Cordial Debate & Deep Connection Through Conflict - Ep. #53

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What's up, friends?
Welcome back to Rooted

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Wisconsin.
Appreciate you for clicking

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another episode.
Thank you for being here.

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Pumped up to drop today's
episode and sadly, it's a very

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timely episode.
Our guest today is Doctor Ryan

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Martin Dean at UWGB.
And more central to our

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conversation today, an anger
researcher.

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He spent his entire career
virtually researching anger.

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We talk about what drives anger.
We talk about the importance of

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normalizing communication about
beliefs.

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And sometimes, so it seems like
the lost art of cordial debate.

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Keyword cordial.
There really interesting topic

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came up that I had never thought
about, about the inverse

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correlation of the more
gratitude you have, the less

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likely you are to speak up about
things or to voice your opinion.

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Think about that for a second.
That one really kind of threw me

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for a loop and we talked about a
really, you know, the state of

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affairs today.
And like I said, that's really

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poignant right now with some
things that have happened

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recently.
And I think it's more important

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than ever to embrace the mission
of why I started the podcast in

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the 1st place to bring people
together with long form

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communication.
I think it's really important.

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We can disagree but still care
about each other and talking

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through things in long form
conversation, as Ryan and I talk

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about in this episode, can
really forge deep and emotional

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connections that come from
conflict.

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It's a really important thing
and it's a lost art and we're

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watching this on socials and and
sometimes I think it's driven

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somewhat or in large part by
social media.

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So a really topical topic today
and really excited to share.

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We also talked about his
appearance on Theo Vaughn.

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I really appreciate and look up
to Theo Vaughn as a podcaster.

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I think he does a great job and
having a guest that was on

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Theo's podcast is a is a big get
for me.

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So I was excited to talk with
Ryan for about because of that.

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But more so after the
conversation, I was excited

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about the places we got and how
we can hopefully make a small

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positive impact for those of you
that listen.

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So we appreciate you being here.
Ryan has a new book coming out.

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He has a new podcast starting.
Check that out.

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Find him on most socials as the
Anger professor.

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And before we jump into the
episode, of course, a big shout

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out to our sponsors at Carouser.
We had a blast tailgating out at

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the Packer game the other day.
Check out their website, get

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some of their great products.
Speaking of making a better

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environment and and a better
outcome for people, I firmly

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believe that less alcohol in
people's lives is a net positive

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as well.
And Carouser is helping out with

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that.
Look forward to the CEO or the

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commander in Reef Dan Lawrence's
episode coming up in a month or

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so and check out their website
and grab some Carouser.

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Without further ado, let's jump
into it.

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Really important topic today.
Open up your ears, open up your

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minds and talk to somebody that
maybe you don't agree with when

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you're done.
Here it is, Ryan Martin.

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So have the ways we try to lift
our neighbors.

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Where did the love go?
Where did the talk?

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And we need to help to make this
better.

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Again.
Well, let's get into yours a

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little bit.
OK.

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So yeah, I heard you moved here
from Mississippi.

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You said.
How long ago was that?

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How long have you been in
Wisconsin?

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So moved here in 2005, had
actually lived here for a couple

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years prior to that at different
stages.

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So I, I did a year at Lawrence
University back in 94 and in

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2003 I, I worked at UW Madison
for a year.

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So I was in this weird.
So I from Minnesota, went to

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College in Wisconsin for a year,
went back to Minnesota, went to

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Mississippi, came to us from
Madison, back to Mississippi,

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then to here permanently.
OK, so did you, did you want to

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find your way back to the
Midwest?

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Was that a goal of yours?
It was I always loved my time

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here.
My family was mostly living

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here.
My wife's family is from my

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wife's from Madison that area.
So we had made it a goal to move

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back to the Midwest and we were
sort of prioritizing Minnesota

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and Wisconsin in that in that
journey.

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But we had also acknowledged
like Illinois would be great.

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Michigan could work, I would
could work, you know that there

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are some options there.
We just more than anything

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wanted to kind of be be a little
bit closer to, to family.

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And at the time, I had a sibling
in Chicago and my mom and dad

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were in Minnesota and, and my
wife's family were in Madison

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and Stevens Point.
So it's the funny part about

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this is that when I lived in
Madison, it was it was the first

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time I was on the job search for
academics.

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I was doing my internship at UW
Madison at the counseling center

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there, and we decided to go up
to Door County for a long

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weekend.
And as we were driving up, this

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was in, this was Memorial Day,
so it's kind of the end of the

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job search.
I was sort of acknowledging that

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I was probably you're going to
have to do another year, that I

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hadn't gotten anything permanent
yet.

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And as I was driving through
Green Bay, we stopped in

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Appleton for dinner and I, as we
were driving to Green Bay, I

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said, Green Bay seems bigger
than I thought.

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I wonder if there's anywhere
here I could work and then went

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to Door County.
Didn't really think anything of

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it came home.
And then the next year, Green

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Bay had a job that was pretty
much perfect for me and in every

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way.
So I at the time, you know, I

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was a counselling psychologist,
wanted to be a college

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professor.
They had a job that basically

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was like a list of courses that
I'd either already taught or was

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prepared to teach.
And yeah, it was a was just a

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great fit.
It's amazing how life delivers

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packages like that at different
times, isn't it?

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Yeah, it was really funny.
And then, of course, you know,

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growing up in Minnesota, all my
friends were Vikings fans.

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And so when I came home and, you
know, told them like, hey, guys,

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I got a job, I'm going to be in
Green Bay.

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Without fail, their response
was, oh, Green Bay.

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Oh, no.
So, yeah, yeah.

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Nice.
Turning back the clock a little

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bit further, what brought your
interests in into there?

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When so when did when did it
like it sounds like it started

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with psychology and then when
did that blossom into the the

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sounds like you're practicing
counselor for a while and then

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the anger specifically, how did
that all come about?

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Yeah, so I, you know, it's funny
when I, when I went to well, I

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guess we'll start at the very
beginning if you want.

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I I running joke about my
family, especially the men in my

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family, is that we all had the
quote UN quote Martin temper.

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So anger ran pretty wild in my
family, starting with my dad in

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particular.
And it's, you know, whenever I

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tell people that story, I think
the worry is that what people

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hear is like that it was like
not a loving household or that

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it was an abusive household
anything.

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And it wasn't any of that.
It was, it was just a, there was

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just a lot of anger, right?
And, and people getting

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sometimes mad at each other.
Honestly, often times with my

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dad, he was just sort of angry
at the world, right?

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He would, he was just a really
relatively inpatient person and

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so I've been interested in it
for a long time.

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When I went to college, I wanted
to to actually, I loved math and

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I wanted to be a math teacher.
Took my first psychology class

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at the end of my first year and
loved it and thought, well,

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maybe this is what I want to do.
Decided to major in psych

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instead with the idea that I
would, instead of being a

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teacher, I'd be a counseling
psychologist when I went to

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Graduate School.
One of the reasons I went to

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Mississippi is if there was a
researcher there who is studying

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anger and I wanted to work with
him and you know, and then

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quickly discovered when I was
there how much I loved research

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and teaching.
Part of the deal in in my

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program was that you had to
teach a class as part of, you

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know, and so most people would
do just one.

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It wasn't their favorite thing.
They would do just one.

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But I loved it so much that I
was just like clamoring for

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additional courses I could teach
and trying to get as many

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different classes as I could.
And so got to teach, you know,

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multicultural counseling and
abnormal psych and group therapy

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and a bunch of different
classes.

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And once, once I kind of got
that bug, I thought, OK, maybe I

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was right to want to be a
teacher.

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It's just not math I want to
teach.

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And so I did do clinical work
for a while, part of it just

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through my, my grad school
training, but then part of it

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when I went to, you know, on my,
I did internship at UW Madison

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at their counseling center.
I guess I had and loved it.

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I mean, I really do love, I
actually think that the relation

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or I think the similarities
between teaching and therapy

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are, are pretty considerable.
There's a lot of similarities

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there, and so it didn't
necessarily feel unnatural at

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all to to focus on teaching,
even though I've been trained

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doing so much counseling.
Yeah, teaching overlaps with so

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much in life.
Yeah, I late, much later in

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life, I found that out.
I, I couldn't believe how much I

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loved teaching.
The first time I taught, I, I

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was working in, I was working in
a career services department,

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working with exponential
learning and stuff.

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And I got an opportunity to
teach and I was like, yeah,

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it'll make some extra money.
It should be cool.

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Did it and loved it.
And like, even when I think of

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my, my history in the private
sector of working in marketing,

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there's overlaps there of
supporting people.

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It's just the way you do it,
right?

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And in both, like in both of
your instances, you're, you're

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trying to empower somebody,
right, to make good decisions,

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positive decisions.
And that's what we do.

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Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, I always think like

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therapy is often times, I mean,
if you really break it down,

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it's you're using language,
you're using words to try and

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help people change.
And teaching is a very similar

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practice.
And you know, and it's just a

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very specific kind of change,
right?

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I mean, like you're helping them
learn.

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But ultimately that learning
does, it isn't just like

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learning stuff.
It's sometimes learning how to

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do things, which is very much
what therapy is.

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Sometimes it's learning how to,
trying to develop sort of

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particular virtues or particular
qualities or whatever.

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So it's in so many ways it's a,
it's a very similar practice as

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as counseling.
So it felt really natural to me.

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I loved being in a classroom
over time, and this actually

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sort of started to happen in
grad school too.

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I, I also became really kind of
enamored with and interested in

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the administration of higher
education.

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And I know that sounds a little
strange, but I, I got, I started

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in my second year.
I was elected like president of

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the grad school, like of our,
like the counseling psychology

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programs, what a student
government.

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And so it meant that I was going
to faculty meetings and, and

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working with the faculty and all
these things.

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And I, I kind of got a sense for
how important some of that work

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is to the future of students and
how you, I mean, there are a lot

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of really important decisions
that are made that affect

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students in a really significant
way.

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And I became really intrigued by
doing that piece of work.

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So I always kind of had the
plan.

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I, I don't think at any point
did I think, well, I'm going to

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be a Dean or like, I don't know
too many people who like grow up

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thinking that's, that's what
they want to do.

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But I was thinking, you know,
that I, I did plan early on a

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thinking about like, I think I'd
like to be chair of the

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psychology, the psych program at
some point.

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And so that became available.
I think in my 6th year at GB,

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the chair decided she wasn't
going to run again.

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And I thought, well, maybe I'll
run to be chair.

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And then I ended up really
loving that.

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It was a, a great, great job and
we were able to do a lot of good

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things.
And then it just kept kind of

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evolving into I became the
associate Dean and then did that

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for a few years during the
pandemic, which was a a a treat,

227
00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:04,720
being responsible for scheduling
during the pandemic.

228
00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:05,800
Sweet.
Yeah.

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It was great.
And then and then we moved into

230
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and then I the the Dean position
opened up a few years ago and,

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and I started doing that so.
Sure.

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So are you still in the
classroom too?

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Do you still teach?
I haven't for the last couple

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years.
I am in the fall, so I'm

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building a new course to teach
in the fall that I'm super,

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super excited about.
So it's going to be really fun.

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It's, you know, it, it, I had
this moment last summer.

238
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I was talking to this guy down
in Milwaukee.

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His name is Chad Bowman and he's
the director of the Milwaukee

240
00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:46,240
Rep And we're talking and he
said something that's just like

241
00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:50,640
stuck with me ever since he
said, look, if the last 20 years

242
00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:54,720
has taught us anything, it's
that we're going to experience a

243
00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:58,960
major disruption every couple of
years, right?

244
00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:05,920
Political unrest, AI, pandemic,
economic uncertainty, whatever,

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00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:07,760
like stuff's going to happen, he
said.

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00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:15,280
In that world, in that universe,
the only skill that really

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matters is your ability to learn
new things.

248
00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:22,160
And he's like, your ability to
be adaptable, your ability to

249
00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:25,320
figure new things out, to
embrace new technology, whatever

250
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it's you got to learn new
things.

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And I have been just kind of
clinging to that.

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And so I went, I drove home
thinking the whole time, where

253
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are we teaching students at?
Where explicitly are we?

254
00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:40,960
Like the idea is that they get
it, you know, that it's like in

255
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the in the water somehow that
they'll get it over their time

256
00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:47,360
in college.
But I want to know where we're

257
00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:51,360
like, where are we teaching them
to be lifelong learners?

258
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And so decided, well, that's
what I'm going to do.

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I'm going to build a course for
this and it's going to be about

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how to learn.
And we're going to encourage

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students to take it in their
first year.

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And then then hopefully it'll
inform not just their time in

263
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college, but their time after
college that they'll be able to

264
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figure out, you know, and how to
keep learning and how to keep

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kind of learning things on their
own.

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So that's the goal is to teach
them that they, they get a, my

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00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:28,760
kids are in the International
Baccalaureate curriculum at the

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and, and both of them, well,
one's in high school, one's in

269
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middle school.
But a big part of that is that

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00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:38,280
you do like you, you do your own
learning project as a student.

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We just pick a thing you want to
learn and you learn it.

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You know, you, you come up with
your own like learning plan or

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whatever.
So we're going to build

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something like that into this
course.

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Students are just going to come
up with a thing they want to

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learn and they're going to have
to teach themselves.

277
00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:57,840
You know, so it could be, I want
to, you know, I want to figure

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00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:01,200
out how to play the guitar, or I
want to learn a language, or I

279
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want to learn how to code or
whatever.

280
00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:06,640
So and then just using whatever
resources they have available to

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00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:08,200
them, they're going to start
figuring that out.

282
00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:10,920
Nice, I've always wanted to know
how to do a Rubik's Cube.

283
00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:13,080
Yeah, that's a good one.
I'm.

284
00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:14,480
Going to move around so the
light comes out.

285
00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:17,800
That's super relevant though.
Man, I I often times I call it

286
00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:20,920
being a curious problem solver.
Like the value of being a

287
00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:25,280
curious problem solver
transcends whatever you want to

288
00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:28,280
do in life.
Like, it will open doors for you

289
00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:32,760
if you just take the approach of
wondering and then trying to

290
00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:35,720
figure out, yeah, if you do
that, it opens so many doors.

291
00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:38,600
Just that thing in itself.
Yeah, I would argue so.

292
00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:43,120
The the mission of our college,
it essentially starts with which

293
00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:49,640
we wrote two years ago, is that
we are curious and creative

294
00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:53,960
problem solvers and that's what
sort of unifies all of us.

295
00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:56,400
It's in the mission.
Yeah, so the mission, when I say

296
00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:58,640
the college, I mean my arts
humanity.

297
00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:01,240
So not UW Green Bay's mission,
OK.

298
00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:05,720
Yeah, the the arts, humanities
and social sciences mission is

299
00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:07,880
that we're curious and creative
problem solvers.

300
00:17:08,319 --> 00:17:12,480
And I, I would argue that's
always been important.

301
00:17:12,839 --> 00:17:17,240
But right now, more than ever, I
would say probably the three

302
00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:22,200
most important things that I
want for our students is to

303
00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:27,480
develop curiosity, creativity,
and a sense of community.

304
00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:32,600
And that students who have that
in college, they're just,

305
00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:35,160
they're going to have a better
experience and they're going to

306
00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:37,880
be prepared to leave and do
great things.

307
00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:41,400
I think that, I mean, we, we
could talk about that in a

308
00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:43,440
billion different ways.
I think probably most obvious

309
00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:48,280
right now is the the AI piece
that I think people who are

310
00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:52,800
going to successfully navigate
that are people who can build

311
00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:56,240
relationships, people who are
creative, people who are asked

312
00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:59,600
good questions and and are
curious.

313
00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:01,960
I think those are the people who
are going to continue to thrive.

314
00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:04,080
You have to know your value
proposition.

315
00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:06,600
You have to do something that AI
can't do, right?

316
00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:08,920
It's those things, the human
elements of those things.

317
00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:10,320
You're spot on.
Absolutely.

318
00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:12,320
That's cool.
I didn't know that was the

319
00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:13,200
mission.
I'm going to use that.

320
00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:14,160
So I don't know if you even
know.

321
00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:19,080
My undergrad is from GBN,
College of Arts and Humanities.

322
00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:21,720
Is it or leadership?
OK, excellent.

323
00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,440
Yeah.
So I'm going to use that so you

324
00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:28,760
know that it wasn't written when
I graduated.

325
00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:31,320
But you know, being a curious
problem solver, I'll I'll

326
00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:32,680
definitely use it in the
classroom, man.

327
00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:35,840
You know, what happened is that
when So it's interesting.

328
00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:39,640
The history of the, the history
of our college is that we, you

329
00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:41,600
know, when the, when the
university was founded in the

330
00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:46,080
60s, we had college right?
There was just one.

331
00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:49,480
And then over time things kind
of split off and we split off

332
00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:51,240
professional programs at some
point.

333
00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:53,960
And then we, you know, kind of
broke things apart.

334
00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:57,880
But So what we have in our
college is sort of the remnants

335
00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:02,600
of the like kind of what was
originally there, whereas, you

336
00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:04,920
know, professional programs
broke off and science,

337
00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:07,560
engineering and technology broke
off and business broke off.

338
00:19:08,120 --> 00:19:12,600
So sometimes people in my in
arts and social sciences, they,

339
00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:14,720
they feel like we're kind of the
leftovers, right?

340
00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,120
We're just like the remnants
and, and there's nothing really

341
00:19:17,120 --> 00:19:21,080
that ties us together.
So my associate Dean, Jenny,

342
00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:26,760
Jenny Young and I thought we
need a, we need to figure out

343
00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:29,080
what pulls us together.
Like we've got to find out that,

344
00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:32,920
find that unity piece.
And so she, she's a writer and I

345
00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:35,520
said, let's, let's, we've got to
write a mission.

346
00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:39,920
So she did a fantastic job of
bringing people together to come

347
00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:43,280
up with like let's figure out
what it is that connects us and

348
00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:47,960
that is sort of the central
proposition there is curious and

349
00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:50,520
creative problem solvers.
That's what that what ties all

350
00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:52,680
of us together in a lot of ways.
Absolutely.

351
00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:55,160
Yeah, completely agree.
Let's get back to that Ryan

352
00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:57,000
temper, the Martin temper a
little bit.

353
00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:59,000
Yeah.
So I didn't.

354
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:01,880
That's cool, man.
So even when you decided that

355
00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:05,760
psychology was the route for
you, it was with the undertone

356
00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:10,200
of anger like being central.
I love when somebody follows a

357
00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:15,080
passion.
It's it's, it's just so heart

358
00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:21,240
warming to be satisfied with
what you do on a day-to-day

359
00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:23,400
basis.
And that stems from picking

360
00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:28,640
something you care about.
So how did I guess A2 part

361
00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:32,560
question, how did the Martin
temper come out in you as a, as

362
00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:35,040
a younger adult or even younger
than that?

363
00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:38,760
And how is it developed?
The more you've learned about

364
00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:41,920
anger, because you mentioned the
word impatient earlier.

365
00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:44,520
I think that's where a lot of
anger stems from.

366
00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:46,440
I mean, you're the expert, you
tell me, but how is it?

367
00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:48,320
How do?
How did it come out and how is

368
00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:50,840
it developed?
Yeah, You know, when I when I

369
00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:56,160
was young, for me it came out in
mostly in a lot of like I, I

370
00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:58,920
would get mad and I would yell
like that was my go to when I

371
00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:02,680
was a kid, not necessarily at
people, but just sort of at the

372
00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:05,920
world.
I do think like a lot of kids, I

373
00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:08,840
took probably more out on my
parents than I wish I had,

374
00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:13,600
especially my mom, you know, And
so and I really regret that, you

375
00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:18,600
know, like I 30 years later,
still wishing things have been

376
00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:20,720
different. 35 years later, still
wishing things have been

377
00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:24,280
different.
But over time, I like really

378
00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:27,000
learned to.
It's funny.

379
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:30,360
I had a conversation with a guy
at work and he said a lot of

380
00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:32,600
this is about 10 years ago.
He said a lot of people think

381
00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:38,000
that you study anger because
you, because you want to know

382
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,160
what other people feel like that
they just don't see me as an

383
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:43,640
angry person.
They see me as like a relatively

384
00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:46,760
chill person, which is funny
because I, I am, would describe

385
00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:49,480
myself as like angry all the
time, right?

386
00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:54,200
I mean, there's so much to be
angry about and I, and I am, I'm

387
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:56,920
really, really, really type A,
right?

388
00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:00,800
And, and so I am competitive.
I'm impatient.

389
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:06,000
I'm and I, I think for me
though, I know that about

390
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,720
myself.
And so I'm able to be really

391
00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:13,960
like mindful about when I'm
likely to experience anger.

392
00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:16,920
I'm able to be thoughtful about
what to do with it when I am

393
00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:20,600
feeling it.
And so it's relatively rare that

394
00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:23,920
I sort of let it get the best of
me, even though internally I'm

395
00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:27,720
kind of feeling like, OK, I wish
things were happening faster.

396
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:30,040
I don't like this, you know, I,
I don't, I don't like being

397
00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:34,680
slowed down and I whatever.
And so like, I think for me, the

398
00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:39,280
way I've been able to manage it
for a long time is by knowing,

399
00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:42,800
like, just knowing that about
myself and being able to like.

400
00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:47,680
I guess challenge the thoughts
I'm having when I get

401
00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,840
frustrated, but then also sort
of direct that anger into

402
00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:54,280
problem solving and directed
into the energy it goes me into

403
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:58,800
into other things.
OK, that's interesting man.

404
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,920
So how much how much of anger in
your research and learning

405
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:06,560
throughout the years, how much
of anger is learned as opposed

406
00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:09,720
to just inherently in the human?
Yeah, that's a good question.

407
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:13,480
So it's as I'm sure, you know,
it's going to be a little bit of

408
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:20,760
both that we do inherit some,
you know, like a genetic

409
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:25,600
predisposition to, it's probably
not so much anger specifically

410
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:31,600
as it is just to be emotional
that we, you know, we inherit A

411
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:36,680
tendency to react with like
heightened emotionality in

412
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:41,160
particular circumstances, a more
active sort of fight or flight

413
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:46,480
response to things.
But then the part that we learn

414
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,600
is pretty extensive, right?
Because what you see is that

415
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:56,360
sometimes, I mean, sort of a
golden rule of emotions is that

416
00:23:56,360 --> 00:24:03,880
we get that, that we direct or,
or we learn our emotional

417
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:07,640
responses from our caregivers
and from the world around us.

418
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:14,000
And so that could be what we
call display rules, meaning I

419
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:18,160
learn what's an appropriate way
to display my anger, an

420
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:21,840
appropriate way to display and
display my fear, my sadness or

421
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:24,560
whatever.
And so we learned that from our

422
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:28,080
caregivers just in one of two
ways, either through modeling,

423
00:24:28,120 --> 00:24:30,000
right?
I see my dad yell, so I decide

424
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:31,720
this is what you do when you're
mad, right?

425
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:36,360
Or through some sort of
conditioning, right?

426
00:24:36,360 --> 00:24:41,560
So, you know, I, I yell and then
I get in trouble for it.

427
00:24:42,120 --> 00:24:44,080
And so then I learned, Nope,
don't do that.

428
00:24:44,120 --> 00:24:46,520
Or I yell and I get praised for
it somehow.

429
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:50,920
And so I do it more.
And so we, we kind of pick up on

430
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:52,440
those things as we're growing
up.

431
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:55,520
It's not just our caregivers,
it's other types of modeling.

432
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,400
I think about that a lot in
terms of the political landscape

433
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,960
right now and and what people
might be learning from leaders,

434
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:08,000
what people might be learning
from other sorts of like

435
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,640
celebrities and models about how
to display emotions.

436
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:13,680
I think about in terms of social
media.

437
00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:17,800
You know, I was asked a question
the other day about, you know,

438
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:21,680
all of these like like people
releasing dash Cam footage of

439
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,720
violent outbursts on the road
and things like that.

440
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:30,800
And what impact does that have
on people, on people's, you

441
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:32,240
know, likelihood respond that
way?

442
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:34,440
And I think the short answer is
we don't know.

443
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:38,800
But I think the longer answer is
that the more it's normalized,

444
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:42,440
the more outbursts like that are
normalized, the more we're going

445
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:48,440
to start to see them and and so
that that modeling has an impact

446
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,880
on the broader universe.
Yeah, absolutely.

447
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:56,440
All the way down to like not
even just anger, but how people

448
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:58,840
are comfortable talking to other
people.

449
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,920
Yeah, that just our our baseline
communication.

450
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:09,440
Yeah, can shift about ABC person
does it who's in the news all

451
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:12,800
the time.
So if I do it on the sidewalk to

452
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,040
my neighbor, that's the world we
live in.

453
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:17,680
But really doesn't have to be
that.

454
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,960
It shouldn't be that way, but
you know it is going to be that

455
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:22,760
way.
Yeah, I mean, I think that's

456
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:24,440
what we're seeing.
You know, I've been, I've been

457
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,200
coaching my son's soccer team
for the last three years.

458
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:31,480
And so one of the things I've
seen is kind of how parents talk

459
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:35,480
to referees, how they talk to
players on the opposing team,

460
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,480
how they talk to each other.
And I'm, I'm seeing like a, a,

461
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:44,680
an escalation of like aggressive
responses to those things that

462
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:51,320
is becoming worrisome to me.
That is, you know, it feels like

463
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,720
in some level we need like a
reset to say, hey, there, there

464
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:57,800
are things you just shouldn't.
Like it's, it's one thing to

465
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:03,120
question a call.
It's another thing to, to, to do

466
00:27:03,120 --> 00:27:08,440
it in the way you did it.
And and I think, you know, just

467
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:10,880
in that vein, I think one of the
interesting thing that's

468
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:15,440
happening too is that everyone
sort of overcorrecting in a way

469
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:17,480
that is causing this real
divide.

470
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:23,240
So, you know, fans feel like
they can say whatever they want

471
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,400
to referees, you know, and they
can shout and be insulting to

472
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:32,120
referees.
Referees are so averse to that

473
00:27:32,360 --> 00:27:36,840
that they the second apparent
questions them, they sort of

474
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,200
double down and they push back
and won't even listen.

475
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:42,560
And so like, and I, I realized
we're not here to talk about

476
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:44,280
soccer, though it is the
greatest sport in the world.

477
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:49,760
I, I will tell you that the, the
thing that I think that that's

478
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,600
probably like a microcosm of
what's happening in a lot of

479
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:56,280
cases, like people are sort of
standoffish with one another in

480
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,120
a way that they're, they're
always, no one ever.

481
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:01,880
That's exaggeration.
People rarely assume good

482
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,760
intent.
And and because of that, like

483
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:09,840
the divide is happening even
before the the interaction in a

484
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:12,840
way that's that's unfortunate.
Yeah.

485
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:17,640
And then with that divide in
place, it makes, it makes like

486
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:22,400
commonality harder to achieve
when in reality it's so close

487
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:24,840
and it's so apparent and it's
always there.

488
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:25,680
Yep.
Yeah.

489
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:28,960
Yeah.
The the referee thing is wild.

490
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:33,360
That's been wild for a while in
youth sports.

491
00:28:33,360 --> 00:28:38,120
Like you see there online videos
of that all over too, of people

492
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:42,360
chirping the up behind the plate
or something in in a, you know,

493
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,800
5th graders playing baseball.
So they're 5th graders, man.

494
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:49,560
Yeah, yeah, I know.
This is not it.

495
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:51,920
It's, it's tricky it, it really
is.

496
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:55,960
And I, I, I think the part that
truly worries me and why I'm

497
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,680
like kind of hung up on this is
I think, you know, so I grew up

498
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,560
playing sports and I love them.
And I think of all the good

499
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,320
positive ways, positive impacts
they can have on people.

500
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:10,520
And it's actually a place where
I think kids can learn a lot

501
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:15,080
about, I mean, honestly, related
to referee specifically, they

502
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,560
can learn a lot about justice
and unfairness.

503
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,520
And they, they could learn about
how you handle those sorts of

504
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:24,120
disputes in a healthy way and
that there's a difference when

505
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:26,720
you get fouled.
There's a difference between

506
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,040
screaming at the ref and going
up to the ref later and saying

507
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:33,320
like, hey, you know, like this
guy took me down and you didn't

508
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:35,320
call it.
Can you tell me what you saw?

509
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:37,840
You know, like that's those
things are fundamentally

510
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:40,520
different.
We're not teaching kids that

511
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:42,960
second way.
What they're seeing is the first

512
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,680
way and refs are reacting to
that and it, and it's too bad

513
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,200
because there's, there's
opportunities here to actually

514
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:53,320
again, reset and have like use
that as a place where kids can

515
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:55,800
learn healthy communication,
healthy conflict.

516
00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:00,720
But we've now hit a point where
I was actually at A, at a parent

517
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,480
meeting recently, We've now hit
a point where refs are so sick

518
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:09,760
of being abused, understandably,
that they're reacting with, we

519
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:11,760
just don't take it at all.
We just give you a red card and

520
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:15,320
you're done, right?
And that's, that's not a great

521
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:17,640
outcome either, right?
Like we're, we're missing the

522
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:20,880
opportunity to have like like a
training ground to talk about

523
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,320
like healthy conflict.
And instead we're we're giving

524
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,000
that up because we just can't
seem to get back there.

525
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:31,120
Yeah, absolutely.
How much of A how much of A

526
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:34,080
like, what does ego play into it
on both sides?

527
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:36,760
Yeah, great question.
I think a lot.

528
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:41,360
I mean, I think when you think
about the, there are a couple

529
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:44,920
different sort of thought types
or ways of things that are

530
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,600
happening internally that lead
to anger.

531
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:52,280
And one of those is a tendency.
It's like demandingness or

532
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:54,440
entitlement, some version of
that, right?

533
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:56,720
And and that's going to be
driven by ego.

534
00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:01,080
So if you think that you deserve
on some level like special

535
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:05,520
treatment or that if you think
you're sort of a special person

536
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,680
who deserves things that other
people don't get, you're just,

537
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:10,200
you're going to get angry more
often.

538
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:12,720
You're going to get angry
because your food doesn't come

539
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:14,200
fast enough.
You're going to get angry

540
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:16,160
because there's people in your
way slowing you down.

541
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:18,400
You're going to angry because
you didn't get the call you

542
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:22,160
wanted.
I think all of that is part of

543
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:30,200
the part of that anger response.
And I think, you know, that ego,

544
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:38,720
it also, I think it leads to
some insecurity or it lends

545
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:43,040
itself to some insecurity that
tends to, to like kind of get

546
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:45,960
exacerbated in those moments
like you, you, you know, when,

547
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:48,520
when you don't get what you
want, it sort of hits you harder

548
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:52,400
because you're like, why do they
not realize how great I am, how

549
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,440
important I am?
And and and so it hits that way.

550
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,520
Yeah, absolutely.
I figured it had to be a crew

551
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,440
critical piece of it.
Yeah, going to.

552
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:03,960
Get the lights again.
You need a ball that you can

553
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:07,080
just throw over there and.
I thought about that this

554
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:08,560
morning.
I thought about that.

555
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:11,640
I, I specifically thought about
this little football that my son

556
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:15,920
has and if I brought it like,
and maybe one other ball, I

557
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:17,880
could just set it right here.
And then when the lights go out,

558
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,240
I just Chuck it that way.
I tried a balloon last time.

559
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:25,240
That was helium and it it was
like the perfect buoyancy that

560
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,040
it would float through the air,
but then it got caught up in a

561
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:29,720
in a little spot over there, so
it didn't.

562
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:34,520
Work, so all right.
But yeah, I mean, ego certainly

563
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:38,240
had to play a part.
It's funny, I so I would put

564
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:41,960
myself in like the flip side of
the coin throughout my entire

565
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:45,240
life, even though there was a
time as like in my teenage

566
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:49,040
years, like ego certainly ran
rampant, you know, like it does

567
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:50,800
for a lot of teens.
Like you think you know

568
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,600
everything, you're the most
important thing in the world

569
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:56,880
until you realize you're this
speck of dust on a hurling Rock,

570
00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:00,640
You know?
But I've never like, I've never

571
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,800
got mad about very much other
than driving.

572
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:07,560
It's my wife gets after me about
it all the time because it's

573
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,720
really true.
As soon as I get behind a wheel,

574
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:16,920
I get upset about these people.
What hypothetically, maybe even

575
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:19,560
making the wrong decision, doing
something that you know, why

576
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:21,880
would you be in the left lane
driving this fast when you're

577
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,560
not over there?
And I don't know.

578
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:27,120
That's not it's not ego.
And I I saw part of your

579
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:29,360
conversation and I think you
talked about this with Theo

580
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:38,840
about how it's well, you tell me
what, what does that mean?

581
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:43,280
Like, you know, in most realms
of my life, super easy going

582
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:47,080
driving pissed.
Well, part of it.

583
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:51,480
Is that you know, so there's
this debate amongst personality

584
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,480
and social psychologists, right?
Two different sort of two sort

585
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:56,520
of different groups of of
psychologists.

586
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:00,080
And part of what they're the
debate is is what's more

587
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,920
important the the person or the
personality or the situations

588
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:05,800
we're in.
And there's actually a pretty

589
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:09,760
good argument that situations
trump personality and in many

590
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:14,040
cases meaning that probably the
best influence of your behavior

591
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:16,280
is not actually your
personality, but it's the

592
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:18,320
situations that you're in.
Sure.

593
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:23,320
Now there's a whole fascinating
kind of way of thinking about

594
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:27,080
that.
But what I'll say is that from

595
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:32,600
a, from a anger perspective,
it's hard to imagine a more

596
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:34,920
provoking situation than
driving.

597
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,679
It just is.
It's, I said this in a, in the,

598
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,560
in the Ted talk.
If you were an evil genius and

599
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,440
you wanted to create a situation
to make people mad, you would

600
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:46,400
create a situation that looks
like driving.

601
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:54,679
And the reason is 1.
It's anxiety provoking, right?

602
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:57,120
Driving is just inherently
dangerous.

603
00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:59,840
And whether we realize that, and
sometimes it seems like a lot of

604
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:03,680
people don't realize that, but
it is and it's it's a dangerous

605
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:06,280
thing.
And that kind of elevates our

606
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:10,280
physiological state.
It makes us more prone to react

607
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:14,680
negatively when we're provoked.
We are by definition on our way

608
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:18,680
someplace, and because we're on
our way someplace, it's really

609
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:22,120
easy to have our goals blocked.
It's really easy to have other

610
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:24,080
people get in the way.
That's the piece I was thinking

611
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:25,800
about.
Yeah, it's, it's really.

612
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:30,000
Easy for things to interfere and
to to block those goals.

613
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,320
And that's one of the the
primary reasons we get angry.

614
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:36,280
It's that impatience part.
You know, that like when my

615
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:38,640
goals are blocked, I'm likely to
get frustrated.

616
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:42,760
And then add to that you've got
all these other people on the

617
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:44,600
road.
You've got these sort of, I

618
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:46,880
mean, yes, there are written
rules of the road, but there are

619
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:51,160
also all these unwritten rules.
And I mean, the example I always

620
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:54,920
use is like, for me, I don't
know how many police officers

621
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:58,240
listen to your show, but for me,
you know, 9 over is what I

622
00:35:58,240 --> 00:36:00,000
usually set the cruise out when
I'm on.

623
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:03,760
OK, good.
So what that means is that you

624
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:07,880
and I could drive on the on the
Interstate and probably be OK.

625
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:12,040
Like, we wouldn't, we wouldn't,
you know, be frustrated by each

626
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:13,960
other because we are agreeing on
the speed.

627
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,680
But if somebody comes up behind
us and wants to get past us

628
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:20,560
because they think that the
right speed is 15, well, they're

629
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,600
going to get mad at us.
And if we run into someone who's

630
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:28,280
driving 5 over, we're going to
get mad at them, right?

631
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:33,640
And so yet all of us are
breaking the law.

632
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:35,880
Like none of us.
We've we've all just set our own

633
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:38,600
sort of arbitrary rule about
what the right speed is.

634
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:41,640
And then we're upset that other
people aren't listening to our

635
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,720
arbitrary rules.
And there's lots of those.

636
00:36:44,720 --> 00:36:48,280
There's lots of those on the on
the road where people have

637
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:52,120
different views about what is
and is not like an acceptable

638
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:56,120
speed to go, an acceptable way
to drive, how close you should

639
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:58,640
be to the confront of you.
You know, how early you have to

640
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:01,960
signal when you say all those,
all these different things and

641
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:08,000
people, people let that kind of
all those rules, those unwritten

642
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:11,160
rules, they let them get to
them.

643
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:16,600
So I think like for you and
honestly for me, like this is a

644
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:20,480
situation where, well, here's
the interesting thing for me

645
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:24,360
when I'm driving is that I'm
actually more often than not

646
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:27,600
relatively relaxed when I drive.
The thing that there's two

647
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,800
things that gets me.
One is I when people do things

648
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:35,200
that are overtly dangerous, that
bothers me, like there's a piece

649
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:37,760
of me that does that.
This were the sort of justice

650
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:43,440
piece kicks in for me of look
like this is a like you

651
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:49,400
fundamentally destroy a person's
life by harming them all because

652
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:51,040
you were going to miss your turn
or whatever.

653
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:53,200
Like you just go around the
block like you don't you know,

654
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:59,680
so there's that the other thing,
and this is so silly and I like

655
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:03,320
know what about myself?
When I start to run low on gas,

656
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:07,600
I start to have this like real
intense, like internal panic

657
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:11,160
moment.
And it makes me so frustrated by

658
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:14,480
all other drivers in that moment
because I, I think what's

659
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:19,840
happening is that I've decided
this is like, I might run out of

660
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:22,560
gas and that's going to be like
a disaster for me.

661
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:25,920
And so everything that
interferes, like everything that

662
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:29,440
blocks my goals or whatever
feels like a thing that's going

663
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:33,400
to make me out, run out of gas.
And so I've, I've actually

664
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,280
started to, by and large, I've
gotten to a point where I just

665
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:38,480
say I don't want to let myself
get in that situation.

666
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:41,680
I'm just gonna always, always at
1/4 of a tank 'cause when I

667
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:44,960
decide it's time and that way
I'll never find myself like in

668
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:46,480
that zone where I get
frustrated.

669
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:48,320
That's funny.
Yeah, my wife has come from.

670
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:49,920
That cloth and I'm more like
Kramer.

671
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,240
You know, the episode of
Seinfeld where he's like, what

672
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:55,000
we're we're gonna keep going and
they just keep passing exits.

673
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:58,240
I'll, I'll run it right down.
Yeah, that's super.

674
00:38:58,240 --> 00:39:00,200
Stressful to me, man.
Yeah, it is.

675
00:39:01,240 --> 00:39:06,080
Part of that nonchalantness, I
guess for me, for me, it's the

676
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:09,240
people who don't set the cruise
control and then they go like 80

677
00:39:09,240 --> 00:39:10,920
and pass you and then they get
in front of you.

678
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:13,720
And then my cruise control set
and I drive up to them and then

679
00:39:13,720 --> 00:39:17,440
I drive around and we exchange
glances and then they pass me

680
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:19,680
again and I'm like, just put to
push the button.

681
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:22,800
Yeah, yeah.
I get that man.

682
00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:28,040
But yeah, there's all those
external forces that come into,

683
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:32,680
you know, funny example is I
went to a concert in Madison

684
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:36,360
recently with a friend of mine
who will remain nameless because

685
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:40,400
the story we he's an erratic
driver, very fast.

686
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:44,760
We were running a little bit
late and we were going extremely

687
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:48,840
fast.
And I consistently the whole

688
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:52,640
drive to Madison, put myself in
the shoes of the other cars.

689
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:55,280
Like we got beeped at several
times, like he was driving

690
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,640
erratically.
And the the best part about it

691
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:01,840
or like the most like thought
provoking part about it for me

692
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:04,680
was watch it being in the car
and watching him because I would

693
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:06,280
never drive like how he was
driving.

694
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:09,000
But I was a passenger.
So we're just talking and

695
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:13,640
watching him navigate it,
knowing that if I was in all

696
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:16,360
these other cars, I'd be upset
because he at times he was

697
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:19,120
putting people in danger, you
know, like making not the best

698
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:24,360
decisions driving and he.
Was blissfully ignorant the

699
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:26,640
entire situation.
Yeah.

700
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:30,640
So there's this chain effect of
all of these upset people.

701
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:31,240
Mm.
Hmm.

702
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:36,880
And he was unaware we were
talking about life, telling

703
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:39,600
jovial stories.
He was very happy the entire

704
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:43,000
time and just wanted to make
sure that we made our dinner

705
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:47,040
reservation before the the
concert when all of these other

706
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:49,600
people, like we had all this
other stuff going on, were

707
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:52,480
absolutely pissed at him for
driving the way that he had all

708
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:54,560
the way.
And he was blissfully and aware.

709
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:57,920
And then I thought about myself
in all those situations where

710
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:02,600
like, OK, the person who doesn't
have their crux control set is

711
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:05,080
talking to their grandma that
they haven't talked to.

712
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:07,840
And they're, she's coming across
the speaker and they're so happy

713
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:10,440
that they have no idea what else
is going on.

714
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:13,680
And that's the fine line, right?
Where, where and what does that

715
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:16,600
line look like between?
Of course it's different for

716
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:17,720
everybody.
It's going to be unique.

717
00:41:17,720 --> 00:41:22,400
But between empathy and
compassion and all those

718
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:27,640
unwritten rules that you force
on to other people, that that's

719
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:30,600
a whole other conversation about
being unrealistic because we

720
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:32,360
didn't even communicate them in
the first place.

721
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:36,120
That's a big part of marriage.
Where where's that line between

722
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:38,640
empathy and compassion?
And I'm right, you're wrong.

723
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:40,680
Yeah.
You know, Well, real quick, let

724
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:43,320
me tell you.
So funny thing about so I used

725
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:46,240
to do some research on driving
anger right and why people got

726
00:41:46,240 --> 00:41:47,920
angry.
And one of the one question we

727
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:53,120
asked in every survey is on a
scale of 1 to 150 being average,

728
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:55,360
how good a driver do you think
you are?

729
00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:59,360
And you know 50 is average.
So you would think that, I mean,

730
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:01,640
if people were thoughtful about
this, most people would put

731
00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:06,040
themselves around that.
I rarely would get answers below

732
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:09,800
80 that everybody thinks they're
a great driver, you know?

733
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:11,840
Like did you also ask what, what
how?

734
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:13,920
Would you rate everybody else?
Yeah, I did not.

735
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:15,920
And that would be a great.
Question because I'm pretty sure

736
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:19,200
that everyone else is that, you
know, below 50 and it, it's

737
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:22,600
like, look, we can't all be
great drivers like like there's

738
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:25,480
going to be a normal
distribution here and like we're

739
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:29,960
not all 80s and 90s.
And so there is something about

740
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:34,080
people are naive to what their
deficits are, what their

741
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:37,120
strengths are, you know, that
they, that people tend to think

742
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:40,480
they're, they're really good.
And I remember actually talking

743
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:43,480
to a friend and I said, I, I
feel like people don't like me

744
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:45,520
on the road.
Like I, you know, and they said,

745
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:47,360
well, that might be because
you're a bad driver.

746
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:50,000
And I was like, or it might be
that everybody else is a bad

747
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,400
driver, right.
It might be that I'm being

748
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:55,840
careful and they don't like it.
Yeah, Well, right.

749
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:57,440
There's a lot of.
Subjectivity in there, right?

750
00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:01,240
Because if you ask him about
that trip, he's probably 10 out

751
00:43:01,240 --> 00:43:03,880
of 10, right?
Like we made the reservation.

752
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:06,760
We didn't, you know, nobody got
hurt.

753
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:10,360
We didn't get a speeding ticket.
Maybe he's a 10 out of 10.

754
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:13,360
When in reality most people
aren't thinking that when and I

755
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:15,280
think your your point.
About, you know, empathy and

756
00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:17,960
understanding and, and
miscommunications, all that.

757
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:21,680
I mean, I think in some ways a
lot of what happens, what we've

758
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:24,680
been talking about the, the, the
pattern of what we're talking

759
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:27,880
about on the road exists in all
these other places too.

760
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:32,600
I mean, your point about a
communication deficit at

761
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:35,840
breakdown at work leading to
anger, like if you're not making

762
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:39,520
your expectations known or at
least having a conversation

763
00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:42,360
about your expectations and then
people are failing to meet those

764
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:44,080
expectations and you're getting
angry.

765
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:50,000
Like where is the, the who's
responsible for that

766
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:52,640
essentially?
And I, and I think part of what

767
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:58,280
we see is that probably more so
than any other emotion, anger is

768
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:02,600
oftentimes described as a social
emotion, meaning we experience

769
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:07,720
it in relationships or, or in
interactions at least far more

770
00:44:07,720 --> 00:44:12,800
often than any other emotion.
And so when you get angry, you

771
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:15,400
by and large, you're typically
angry at another person.

772
00:44:15,720 --> 00:44:19,920
And that isn't necessarily true
with fear or sadness or

773
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:23,920
curiosity or all these other
emotions that happen that can

774
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:26,840
happen in different, in
different ways.

775
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:32,040
So what that means is that like
when you get angry and if you

776
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:35,440
have an anger problem or if
you're getting angry regularly,

777
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:40,240
it's, it's quite contextual.
It depends on the circumstances.

778
00:44:40,240 --> 00:44:43,760
It depends on the nature of
those interactions you're having

779
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:46,160
with people.
And there's always something

780
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:52,680
that that you probably fed into
that system somehow.

781
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:56,280
And it might be I why I didn't
communicate very effectively.

782
00:44:56,280 --> 00:45:01,320
Or it might be, hey, I was
feeling really, really anxious

783
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:03,800
already.
And so I just, you know, I

784
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:08,480
brought that into the situation.
It might be, you know, sleep

785
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:12,120
deprived and I, and so I was
quicker to respond negatively or

786
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:14,160
whatever.
Like there's all these different

787
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:16,360
factors and there's things you
bring to the table and then

788
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:20,720
there's things other people do.
And so much like on the road

789
00:45:20,720 --> 00:45:23,120
where there's lots of those
things in any of our

790
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:25,080
interactions, they're going to
be those things.

791
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:29,000
So that that kind of.
Brings us to a spot I wanted to

792
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:31,600
talk about today.
We we talked about the missions

793
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:37,040
of both of our shows earlier and
underlying to sharing the

794
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:39,240
stories of the people of
Wisconsin.

795
00:45:39,240 --> 00:45:41,680
A lot of the place that I get
satisfaction and where I see

796
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:47,520
value is in just the
communication piece of it.

797
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:51,320
And using that to bridge these
gaps between people that we

798
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:54,120
mentioned earlier.
I think it's very powerful.

799
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:57,720
Now, getting people to listen to
something for an hour and a half

800
00:45:57,720 --> 00:46:00,840
is difficult, right?
But the people who do I like to

801
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:04,800
think are positively impacted by
the conversation that we have.

802
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:09,880
Because I, I don't, I don't
filter by, you know, some of the

803
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:14,520
traditional ways, like I'm not
filtering by political belief

804
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:17,960
system or whatever.
Like I, I filter my guests of

805
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:21,560
like cool conversation and if
it's going to happen, like we're

806
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:26,120
going to do it.
So what you brought up the

807
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:29,520
relationship there between
effective communication and

808
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:33,640
anger.
Balloon that out a little bit to

809
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:38,000
a societal level and.
Pretend that.

810
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:41,640
This is a big pretend.
Pretend that the reception

811
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:44,360
barriers aren't there.
Like any At any time we could

812
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:47,200
get someone to the entire
populace to listen to an hour

813
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:50,160
and a half of something.
Does that affective

814
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:58,680
communication and the ability to
eloquent something effectively

815
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:02,120
to have an understanding of an
unwritten rule of society or

816
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:04,760
whatever these things are that
people make make people angry?

817
00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:11,160
Does that have the ability to
impact change positively with

818
00:47:11,720 --> 00:47:17,360
these undertones of tenseness
and anger and the things that

819
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:19,160
make you uncomfortable about
society?

820
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:20,720
Does it have the power to do
that?

821
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:26,080
I I I think it.
Could I think right now what I

822
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:29,280
if there's something?
I could do.

823
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:33,200
To change the way people are
communicating right now, it's

824
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:37,560
that I would want, I think we've
lost our ability to have even

825
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:41,240
basic conflict without it
feeling personal.

826
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:47,520
And I think like, you know, and,
and obviously I'm just so we're

827
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:50,960
clear, like so much of politics
is personal.

828
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:54,160
And I, I get uncomfortable when
people are like, Oh no, we just,

829
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:56,800
you shouldn't personalize.
It was like, no, it's personal,

830
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:58,400
right?
I mean, these, these, these

831
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:00,520
things that are happening
politically, they make a big

832
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:03,200
difference to people's lives.
And I understand why people are,

833
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:05,920
are, I mean, I'm emotional about
those things.

834
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:07,760
I understand why lots of people
are emotional about those

835
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:09,840
things.
But I also think that within

836
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:14,200
that, we've actually really kind
of lost our ability to have like

837
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:20,840
to disagree and, and have it
and, and have it, I guess, and

838
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:24,080
to to, I guess for, for that
healthy conflict that I was

839
00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:25,760
talking about.
Like we've lost our ability to

840
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:28,200
communicate in a way that isn't
aggressive.

841
00:48:28,720 --> 00:48:31,520
And I think in some ways part of
what needs to happen is people

842
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:37,680
need to be sort of retrained a
little bit to have some of those

843
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:45,600
conversations.
I, you know, one of my sons went

844
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:48,280
to school the day after the
election and, you know, and I

845
00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:51,360
was kind of curious how, what
the day would be like for him.

846
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:56,440
And he came home and I said, so
how was school today?

847
00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:58,200
Were were a lot of people
talking about the election?

848
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:03,360
And one of the things he told me
is, yeah, we were kind of told

849
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:06,880
not to talk about it.
And I know which by the

850
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:08,920
teachers, Yeah, that there.
Was like I.

851
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:12,040
Think that I think the teachers
thought, look, there's so much

852
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:16,080
potential for conflict today
that we're we don't want right.

853
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:19,720
So so the lesson then is that,
hey, this is something we

854
00:49:19,720 --> 00:49:22,360
shouldn't discuss, you know,
like we should stifle it.

855
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:25,800
Too emotional and in the space
that's supposed.

856
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:27,920
To be the safe space to talk
about things.

857
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:30,760
Yep, exactly and.
So, and I think that that might

858
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:34,120
be where it's not unlike what's
happening on the soccer field,

859
00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:36,000
right?
Where it's like, Hey, we don't

860
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:37,640
know how to handle conflict
anymore.

861
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:39,120
And so we're just not going to
do it.

862
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:41,360
I'm going to give you that red
card the second you do.

863
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:43,880
And then we're never going to
learn to have the healthy

864
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:47,920
conversation.
And so I do think we need to, we

865
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:53,400
need to get away from and if it,
if it means starting small, if

866
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:55,560
it means like, hey, we're going
to, we're going to get together

867
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:58,800
and we're going to, we're going
to argue about our favorite

868
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:03,720
movie and, and talk about that
just so we can get comfortable

869
00:50:03,720 --> 00:50:07,400
having like healthy conflict and
recognize it, you know, and, and

870
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:10,520
like talking about those things.
I think we've just got to

871
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:15,880
normalize some of that, that
practice so that we can have a

872
00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:19,760
get back to learning to have
those uncomfortable

873
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:22,720
conversations.
I just think we've kind of lost

874
00:50:22,720 --> 00:50:24,400
that skill.
And then the more we've lost

875
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:27,560
that skill, the more we've tried
like we've avoided it and

876
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:29,120
avoided opportunities to develop
it.

877
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:31,160
So an interesting piece there
when I think.

878
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:34,600
About that concept, at least
through my lens, through my

879
00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:40,280
individual lens, I've always
been very comfortable in

880
00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:42,400
conversation about
disagreements.

881
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:45,520
You know, like I not that I
would lean into it or look for

882
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:49,000
it to happen, but I often
thought about the positivity

883
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:51,800
that comes from it, right?
Like if you have healthy

884
00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:55,280
discourse and healthy
disagreement, often times you

885
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:58,280
leave the scenario in a better
place than stewing over it in

886
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:00,920
the beginning anyway.
So I've always kind of had that

887
00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:04,480
awareness and been comfortable
addressing situations.

888
00:51:05,720 --> 00:51:08,080
One change though, one shift
throughout my life.

889
00:51:08,080 --> 00:51:12,560
And I wonder if this is at a
societal level because

890
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:18,720
disagreement has become so
polarizing now that I wonder,

891
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:25,400
you know, for me, I find myself
almost addressing those things

892
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:31,160
less now because of the
potential ramifications in my

893
00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:34,760
life.
You know, like I feel a lot more

894
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:36,840
weight right now.
I have a four year old son.

895
00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:39,320
I feel a lot more weight as a
human than I ever have in my

896
00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:41,000
life.
A lot more responsibility

897
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:45,920
because there's another human
that counts everything on me.

898
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:51,480
And that means a lot of things.
That means not just your job,

899
00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:55,240
like people talk about the job
all the time, but just like life

900
00:51:55,240 --> 00:51:59,480
in general, community
perception, what relationships

901
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:03,120
do to in life for you.
Relationships open so many

902
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:07,920
doors.
And I'm wondering if those two

903
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:14,760
things are tied together like
that the the so polarized

904
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:18,800
environment that leads to like,
OK, I can't talk about this

905
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:22,600
because if I'm a business owner,
half my business is gone.

906
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:29,800
Or if I'm whatever, if I'm a
referee, you know, I have

907
00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:32,800
friends in the stands on both
teams and I'm going to lose

908
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:35,760
some.
And like, you know, you get what

909
00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:37,560
I'm getting at.
I, I don't really have a great

910
00:52:37,720 --> 00:52:41,240
question formed of it, but I
wonder if that's an expansive

911
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:44,200
piece of this, you know, so
there's this.

912
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:46,640
Research study that, and I'm,
I'm not going to be able to

913
00:52:46,640 --> 00:52:50,240
remember the authors or, or the
year, but a research study came

914
00:52:50,240 --> 00:52:53,720
out a few years ago that I'm, I
found really, really fascinating

915
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:56,160
looking at gratitude.
And it's connected to what

916
00:52:56,160 --> 00:52:59,200
you're saying here.
Because so we know like for, for

917
00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:01,840
the last decade, we've been
talking about gratitude and how

918
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:04,240
valuable it is and it's a secret
to happiness, etcetera,

919
00:53:04,240 --> 00:53:06,520
etcetera, etcetera.
And, and all that's true like

920
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:09,160
that research is great.
And, and, you know, if you want

921
00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:11,480
to, you know, be a happier
person, one of the things you

922
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:13,560
should do is be grateful for the
things you have.

923
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:15,960
There is a consequence to
gratitude, though.

924
00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:19,400
And what the study found is that
people who are thankful for what

925
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:24,920
they have in their lives are
much less likely to take bold

926
00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:28,480
stands for exactly the reason
you're describing.

927
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:33,200
And that when you, when you
acknowledge all of the things

928
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:37,040
that you have to be thankful
for, you become more scared of

929
00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:41,160
losing those things.
And the consequence of that is

930
00:53:41,240 --> 00:53:45,680
you don't, you don't push
boundaries, You don't, you don't

931
00:53:45,680 --> 00:53:48,160
take bold stands, you don't get
in arguments with people, You

932
00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:49,520
don't, you're, you're actually
live.

933
00:53:49,520 --> 00:53:54,120
I think the study specifically
looked at, you know, the degree

934
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:57,240
to which people sort of push
social justice initiatives.

935
00:53:57,560 --> 00:53:59,520
You don't push social justice
initiatives.

936
00:53:59,720 --> 00:54:03,960
Like you're too concerned about
losing the things you have to

937
00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:06,280
take some of those bold
positions.

938
00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:12,480
And, and, and so there's a
danger in or a potential danger

939
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:15,200
in that or potential downside
associated with that.

940
00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:17,320
Now, you weren't talking about
gratitude necessarily

941
00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:19,640
specifically, but I think it
connects in some ways where

942
00:54:19,640 --> 00:54:22,920
you're saying like you feel this
pressure because you've got

943
00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:27,080
things and people in your life
who care about you and are, are

944
00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:31,680
depending on you, that it
becomes harder to do some of the

945
00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:34,360
thing to like have those tough
conversations because you don't

946
00:54:34,360 --> 00:54:35,880
want to lose some of those
things.

947
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:40,040
That's fascinating to.
Think about me fascinating to

948
00:54:40,040 --> 00:54:42,720
think about, because if I put
that on the timeline of what I'm

949
00:54:42,720 --> 00:54:46,160
talking about, I've always been
by nature, pretty like, filled

950
00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:49,360
with gratitude.
Like I, I love life.

951
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:51,040
I've been fortunate in a lot of
different ways.

952
00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:56,920
But you know, when I, when I was
more apt to make a stand and

953
00:54:56,920 --> 00:55:02,760
take that, I, I had far less
physical things And like my

954
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:07,120
gratitude stemmed from existing
and having a voice and having an

955
00:55:07,120 --> 00:55:09,360
opinion.
So of course, that's more like,

956
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:11,120
I've never thought about that
like that.

957
00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:13,560
That's fascinating, man.
And, and you know what's funny?

958
00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:15,520
So I can.
Even sort of map this out of my

959
00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:19,600
trajectory as like sort of a a
social media scholar, you know,

960
00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:22,000
like a public scholar.
So I've been, I've put a lot of

961
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:24,880
weight in the last five years on
trying to communicate with the

962
00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:26,240
public like we're doing now,
right.

963
00:55:26,240 --> 00:55:33,400
And, and I think early on when I
had very few followers, I, I, I

964
00:55:33,400 --> 00:55:36,520
was more willing to be bold.
I was more willing to sort of

965
00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:39,120
get into arguments with people
and things like that.

966
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:43,520
And then as, as I started
developing more followers, I

967
00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:46,040
think I and I started paying
attention to them and started

968
00:55:46,040 --> 00:55:48,960
listening to them, I started to
get a little too worried how

969
00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:53,280
they might react if I said
something unpopular.

970
00:55:53,760 --> 00:55:57,600
And, and so I started to, I
think honestly, like if I'm

971
00:55:57,600 --> 00:56:02,080
thinking back on it, I think I
became a little less bold in

972
00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:04,640
some of the, some of the
positions I was taking.

973
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:08,320
And, and the funny downside of
that is I actually think that

974
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:10,600
alienated followers more than
anything like that.

975
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:13,680
They sort of felt like kind of
being a wuss now, you know,

976
00:56:13,680 --> 00:56:16,000
like, you know, and sometimes
things can come off as

977
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:16,920
inauthentic.
Too.

978
00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:19,440
And that's a big deal, yeah.
And so I think you.

979
00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:22,280
Know one of the, one of the
things that I've really tried to

980
00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:26,200
prioritize lately is worry less
about that.

981
00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:29,480
Worry about the message that
you're trying to put out there.

982
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:31,640
Pay attention to that, Think
about that and try and

983
00:56:31,640 --> 00:56:35,520
communicate what you want people
to hear and, and don't worry too

984
00:56:35,520 --> 00:56:37,680
much about how they respond to
it.

985
00:56:38,760 --> 00:56:42,240
You know, and then, I mean, you
know, and then, and then start

986
00:56:42,240 --> 00:56:44,760
that conversation with them.
And if they push back and

987
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:46,880
disagree, have a conversation
with them about why they

988
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:50,600
disagree instead of starting
from the position of they're

989
00:56:50,600 --> 00:56:53,600
going to disagree.
And you know, the other thing I

990
00:56:53,600 --> 00:56:55,600
was thinking about, as you were
talking about before we got on

991
00:56:55,600 --> 00:57:00,240
the gratitude thing, is that so
in, in Group therapy, we talk

992
00:57:00,240 --> 00:57:04,000
about like 3 stages of, of the
therapeutic process.

993
00:57:04,520 --> 00:57:09,040
And in the beginning the group
is like typically and pretty

994
00:57:09,080 --> 00:57:11,200
like affable.
And they get along right.

995
00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:14,440
And they're like, hey,
everybody's sort of being

996
00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:18,640
polite.
And then for a lot of groups,

997
00:57:18,640 --> 00:57:22,040
the second stage is like some
sort of conflict stage where

998
00:57:22,280 --> 00:57:24,800
people start to disagree with
one another and they start to

999
00:57:24,800 --> 00:57:26,320
push back and they start to
argue.

1000
00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:31,080
And that part of the group
therapy process is like

1001
00:57:31,080 --> 00:57:33,400
fundamental.
It's, it's where the trust is

1002
00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:36,200
built that allows people to move
on.

1003
00:57:36,200 --> 00:57:38,920
And I would argue this is true
of all healthy relationships.

1004
00:57:39,480 --> 00:57:43,560
Navigating conflict is one of
the ways you develop like trust

1005
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:45,400
and intimacy.
Yep.

1006
00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:48,360
Disagreeing with people and then
learning.

1007
00:57:48,360 --> 00:57:50,640
And this is the part that I
think in modern society we're

1008
00:57:50,720 --> 00:57:55,520
maybe missing, is learning, Hey,
we can disagree and then we can

1009
00:57:55,520 --> 00:57:59,480
still care about each other and
still want to.

1010
00:58:00,120 --> 00:58:02,640
And there's times where this
isn't going to work, of course,

1011
00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:08,440
but like we can disagree and we
can argue and, and then we can

1012
00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:11,120
come out of it on the other side
with a better understanding of

1013
00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:14,880
one another and like genuine
trust in one another and, and

1014
00:58:15,080 --> 00:58:19,560
frankly, A deeper emotional
relationship or deeper emotional

1015
00:58:19,560 --> 00:58:22,800
connection because we navigated
that conflict.

1016
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:26,520
And I think it's when people
don't navigate that conflict

1017
00:58:26,520 --> 00:58:28,840
that they come out sort of more
polarized.

1018
00:58:29,360 --> 00:58:32,200
And that seems to be what's
happening so often is that

1019
00:58:32,200 --> 00:58:36,480
people are coming out of
conflict without ever, they're

1020
00:58:36,480 --> 00:58:39,000
not learning to like kind of
navigate that conflict in a

1021
00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:41,440
healthy way.
Well, that's probably driven by

1022
00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:43,400
social.
Media, because it's really easy

1023
00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:46,360
to get to the point where, OK,
I'm just not going to comment

1024
00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:49,120
back anymore.
Yep, I think it's I think.

1025
00:58:49,120 --> 00:58:51,320
It's that I think it's also like
it.

1026
00:58:51,640 --> 00:58:59,320
We probably paint an artificial
picture of of the people we're

1027
00:58:59,320 --> 00:59:01,280
talking to.
We think of them as different

1028
00:59:01,280 --> 00:59:06,120
than they might actually be.
Did I tell you I can't remember

1029
00:59:06,120 --> 00:59:08,240
if we've ever talked about this
before or if you're what?

1030
00:59:08,240 --> 00:59:11,480
But my my, my Sheboygan
basketball gymnasium story.

1031
00:59:11,520 --> 00:59:16,600
Have I shown this?
OK, so I was this is like, I

1032
00:59:17,080 --> 00:59:20,280
don't know.
So my, my episode with Theo Von

1033
00:59:20,320 --> 00:59:24,360
came out like a week after the
election and, you know, a super,

1034
00:59:24,360 --> 00:59:32,120
super polarizing time in, in, in
the, the US And so this episode

1035
00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:35,640
comes out and then and you know,
he's Vaughn's a relative got a

1036
00:59:35,640 --> 00:59:37,600
relatively conservative
audience, right.

1037
00:59:37,600 --> 00:59:42,880
And I'm not conservative.
And we, I go to a basketball

1038
00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:45,680
tournament in Sheboygan with my
son.

1039
00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:47,960
And so youth tournament,
spending the day in the gym with

1040
00:59:47,960 --> 00:59:54,760
him and a guy comes up to me and
says, Hey, I just, I recognize

1041
00:59:54,760 --> 00:59:57,440
you from Theo Von and can we sit
down and talk for a little bit?

1042
00:59:57,480 --> 01:00:02,400
And me and this guy had a great
conversation like just a super

1043
01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:06,640
nice guy told me that he's
trying to be a better stepdad,

1044
01:00:06,640 --> 01:00:10,280
that he's dealing with his own
anger that he he loved like the

1045
01:00:10,280 --> 01:00:13,000
episode or whatever.
And you know, we had, we talked

1046
01:00:13,000 --> 01:00:15,720
for like 5 minutes, super,
super, super nice guy.

1047
01:00:16,600 --> 01:00:22,240
And then he left, and I.
I don't know this why actually,

1048
01:00:22,240 --> 01:00:28,480
I learned it after that.
This guy is a like pretty

1049
01:00:28,480 --> 01:00:33,720
serious Trump supporter and and
I kind of got that that kind of

1050
01:00:33,720 --> 01:00:35,960
had that guess at the time we
were talking or whatever.

1051
01:00:36,240 --> 01:00:40,640
But I think the what was really
interesting about it though, is

1052
01:00:40,640 --> 01:00:45,000
so here's a guy that I don't
agree with politically at all

1053
01:00:45,800 --> 01:00:48,200
and that we probably don't have
a lot in common in a bunch of

1054
01:00:48,200 --> 01:00:50,560
different ways.
Yet we were still able to have a

1055
01:00:50,560 --> 01:00:54,520
really thoughtful personal
conversation about stuff he's

1056
01:00:54,520 --> 01:00:59,440
struggling with.
And this is my worry is that so

1057
01:00:59,440 --> 01:01:03,880
often we're driven away by each
other's, by these differences

1058
01:01:03,960 --> 01:01:07,680
that we have that we don't ever
get to a place where we can have

1059
01:01:07,680 --> 01:01:10,600
those conversations, you know,
that we can talk about something

1060
01:01:10,600 --> 01:01:12,040
important.
This is a guy I would have

1061
01:01:12,040 --> 01:01:15,800
probably been fighting with on
social media six months earlier,

1062
01:01:15,800 --> 01:01:20,000
you know, instead of instead we
were able to have a, a pretty

1063
01:01:20,120 --> 01:01:23,280
meaningful conversation.
And like, I came out of it

1064
01:01:23,440 --> 01:01:28,440
changed Not, I mean, not totally
changed, but I came out of it.

1065
01:01:28,440 --> 01:01:31,640
I came out the other side
changed by some of the things he

1066
01:01:31,640 --> 01:01:34,400
said.
I think he came out the other

1067
01:01:34,400 --> 01:01:36,320
side change by some of the
things I said.

1068
01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:38,200
So it was a valuable
conversation.

1069
01:01:38,680 --> 01:01:41,280
I don't think me and this guy
would ever be best friends, but

1070
01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:43,840
we were able to do this.
And it all stemmed from the fact

1071
01:01:43,840 --> 01:01:46,120
that we didn't lead with our
differences, right?

1072
01:01:46,120 --> 01:01:48,160
We left.
We LED with the things we had in

1073
01:01:48,160 --> 01:01:52,960
common, which is him being
really interested in learning

1074
01:01:52,960 --> 01:01:56,000
more about anger and being
curious actually back to where

1075
01:01:56,000 --> 01:01:58,120
we started, right?
Well, and that's proof in the.

1076
01:01:58,120 --> 01:02:00,360
Pudding of That's the question I
asked earlier, man.

1077
01:02:00,520 --> 01:02:03,520
That's the question of that
person took the time to listen

1078
01:02:03,520 --> 01:02:05,000
to something for an hour and a
half.

1079
01:02:05,240 --> 01:02:09,840
Yeah.
And then like that concept of of

1080
01:02:09,840 --> 01:02:13,760
course it's true.
It's so easy to forget when we

1081
01:02:13,760 --> 01:02:16,920
put everything, like our brains
are made to compartmentalize and

1082
01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:19,120
put things in little boxes
because we like to understand.

1083
01:02:19,120 --> 01:02:22,440
It's human nature.
But at the same time, just

1084
01:02:22,440 --> 01:02:26,440
because you're in this one
particular political box doesn't

1085
01:02:26,440 --> 01:02:29,120
mean that there's not another
box that you and I both sit in

1086
01:02:29,440 --> 01:02:34,520
as a dad, as the type of work
you do, as whatever it was.

1087
01:02:34,520 --> 01:02:38,320
But that's the exact proof in
the pudding of like, OK, if we

1088
01:02:38,320 --> 01:02:42,040
can get some people to spend
some time and talk back and

1089
01:02:42,040 --> 01:02:49,160
forth and just reflect a little
bit and be willing to not poo

1090
01:02:49,160 --> 01:02:53,160
poo something that isn't whole,
like 100% exactly what you do,

1091
01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:55,200
right?
Super valuable man.

1092
01:02:55,720 --> 01:02:59,040
So how did the kind of building
on that, How did the episode

1093
01:02:59,040 --> 01:03:02,920
with Theo come up?
So Theo, I, I love Theo's

1094
01:03:02,920 --> 01:03:04,600
podcast.
I think he does a great job.

1095
01:03:06,960 --> 01:03:11,560
So I actually take some creative
direction from what I do from

1096
01:03:11,560 --> 01:03:15,120
his his podcast.
So like, how did how does that

1097
01:03:15,120 --> 01:03:17,120
even come about?
That had to be so cool, dude.

1098
01:03:17,400 --> 01:03:18,840
It was amazing.
Yeah, he.

1099
01:03:19,440 --> 01:03:24,600
So it's, it's kind of a funny
story that he so I just one day

1100
01:03:24,600 --> 01:03:27,560
my assistant sent me an e-mail
and she said, I have no idea if

1101
01:03:27,560 --> 01:03:33,760
this is real, but here.
And it was a note from one of

1102
01:03:33,760 --> 01:03:36,960
his producers saying we'd like
to have Ryan.

1103
01:03:36,960 --> 01:03:38,960
I work for Theo Von, we'd like
to have him on the show.

1104
01:03:39,560 --> 01:03:43,640
And I had no idea who Theo Von
was when I when I got this

1105
01:03:43,640 --> 01:03:45,560
right.
And so I realized now that's

1106
01:03:45,560 --> 01:03:47,240
crazy.
He's like one of the 10 most

1107
01:03:47,240 --> 01:03:49,120
influential people in America
right now.

1108
01:03:49,120 --> 01:03:53,160
And like, you know, and so, but
I was at least according to

1109
01:03:53,160 --> 01:03:56,520
Rolling Stone, but I when he
well, when he had Bernie.

1110
01:03:56,520 --> 01:03:59,320
On and then a week later had
Trump on I'm like OK, he's got

1111
01:03:59,320 --> 01:04:02,600
some weight so that was why
I'll.

1112
01:04:03,440 --> 01:04:06,440
The the crazy part about that is
that I did the interview with

1113
01:04:06,440 --> 01:04:10,480
him like a week before those two
episodes and I was like, are you

1114
01:04:10,480 --> 01:04:14,400
telling me that I like the same
dude who interviewed me last

1115
01:04:14,400 --> 01:04:16,040
week just interviewed Barry,
Barry Sanders?

1116
01:04:16,360 --> 01:04:18,680
That'd be cool too.
That'd be great.

1117
01:04:18,920 --> 01:04:20,240
Too, Bernie.
Sanders not as cool as Bernie,

1118
01:04:20,280 --> 01:04:22,280
but yeah.
So I was like.

1119
01:04:22,640 --> 01:04:25,640
That's nuts to me.
So I was, yeah.

1120
01:04:26,040 --> 01:04:31,120
So I so I wrote back and said
sure, but I will be honest that

1121
01:04:31,880 --> 01:04:35,120
until I met him, I questioned
whether or not this was real.

1122
01:04:35,120 --> 01:04:40,480
Like I drove because they could
not have treated me nicer.

1123
01:04:40,520 --> 01:04:45,800
I mean, you know, keep in mind,
like I am a Dean at a regional

1124
01:04:45,800 --> 01:04:47,720
comprehensive university in the
Midwest.

1125
01:04:47,720 --> 01:04:50,400
I'm not used to like red carpet
treatment.

1126
01:04:50,440 --> 01:04:54,280
And so he like, they flew me
first class.

1127
01:04:54,280 --> 01:04:56,720
They had a driver waiting for me
at the airport.

1128
01:04:56,720 --> 01:05:00,400
They, they, they had me staying
at a much nicer hotel than I

1129
01:05:00,400 --> 01:05:03,280
would ever stay at on my own.
Like it was an awesome weekend.

1130
01:05:03,760 --> 01:05:10,400
And, and I was still so stressed
out about because, you know, I

1131
01:05:11,000 --> 01:05:14,960
once I got once he asked, I
started listening to his show.

1132
01:05:15,400 --> 01:05:21,280
And, you know, I mean, he like,
it's like he talks about some

1133
01:05:21,280 --> 01:05:23,400
tough stuff.
He makes some jokes that I was

1134
01:05:23,400 --> 01:05:25,600
like, gosh, I'm not sure I want
to be part of these jokes.

1135
01:05:25,680 --> 01:05:28,600
Like I need to come up with a
way of like getting out of this

1136
01:05:28,600 --> 01:05:34,560
if he asks me weird stuff.
And then I went on and he was

1137
01:05:34,560 --> 01:05:39,320
the nicest host I could possibly
imagine.

1138
01:05:39,320 --> 01:05:42,280
He, he started out the interview
by saying like, Hey, are you

1139
01:05:42,280 --> 01:05:44,880
feeling nervous or anything?
And I said a little bit and he's

1140
01:05:44,880 --> 01:05:47,600
like, is there anything I can do
to help you not feel nervous?

1141
01:05:47,600 --> 01:05:50,040
And, and I said I, I was like, I
think I'll get there.

1142
01:05:50,040 --> 01:05:52,280
Like I think we just talked for
a few minutes and then we'll be

1143
01:05:52,280 --> 01:05:54,040
fine or whatever.
And he's like, OK, so then he,

1144
01:05:54,880 --> 01:05:57,440
we just started talking.
And then, you know, it was one,

1145
01:05:57,440 --> 01:05:59,440
it was kind of like you and I
started, there wasn't a point

1146
01:05:59,440 --> 01:06:01,080
where he's like, OK, show starts
now.

1147
01:06:01,080 --> 01:06:06,040
It was just here we go.
And yeah, he was super, super

1148
01:06:06,040 --> 01:06:07,840
nice.
Invited me to his show that

1149
01:06:07,840 --> 01:06:09,320
night.
He was performing in town.

1150
01:06:09,320 --> 01:06:14,120
And then when I laughed at the
end of the show, he, the driver

1151
01:06:14,120 --> 01:06:17,000
was like, oh, yeah, he wants to
come backstage and talk to him.

1152
01:06:17,000 --> 01:06:18,680
And so I went back.
I got to meet all the other

1153
01:06:18,680 --> 01:06:21,040
comedians.
I just could not have been a

1154
01:06:21,040 --> 01:06:23,400
nicer guy.
It was it was fantastic.

1155
01:06:23,440 --> 01:06:26,360
And on top of all that, I loved
the interview he did.

1156
01:06:26,360 --> 01:06:29,200
I loved the questions he asked.
I love what we talked about.

1157
01:06:29,200 --> 01:06:38,200
I, I felt in that interview like
he, like, I, I felt like the

1158
01:06:38,200 --> 01:06:41,720
depth behind his questions that
like this is a sensitive guy

1159
01:06:41,720 --> 01:06:46,760
who's super smart, who, you
know, I think sometimes, you

1160
01:06:46,760 --> 01:06:50,000
know, kind of plays a role for
comedy that isn't really who he

1161
01:06:50,000 --> 01:06:52,560
is or maybe it's a version of
who he is.

1162
01:06:52,560 --> 01:06:56,560
But but I just, I, you could
tell that like there's some

1163
01:06:56,560 --> 01:07:00,560
demons there maybe.
And that he that he kind of

1164
01:07:00,560 --> 01:07:03,120
shared with me during the
interview and I just, I just

1165
01:07:03,120 --> 01:07:06,560
thought he was a super, super
fascinating guy.

1166
01:07:06,800 --> 01:07:08,600
Yeah, for real.
Yeah.

1167
01:07:08,600 --> 01:07:12,200
And that's, you know, there's
layers to the onion with

1168
01:07:12,200 --> 01:07:15,480
everybody, right?
It's hard not to when you get to

1169
01:07:15,480 --> 01:07:18,920
that level, you know, what
layers make your money and you

1170
01:07:18,920 --> 01:07:23,320
let those layers have a little
bit more, you know, weight than

1171
01:07:23,320 --> 01:07:28,760
than some of the others.
But yeah, I can, I can see that.

1172
01:07:28,760 --> 01:07:30,480
I I can.
You can feel that in his

1173
01:07:30,480 --> 01:07:34,520
interviews like you.
I mean, it's funny you talk

1174
01:07:34,520 --> 01:07:38,000
about the the two political
candidates there.

1175
01:07:38,000 --> 01:07:42,440
And I mean, how he made it seem
completely to normal to talk

1176
01:07:42,800 --> 01:07:46,280
like the the owl joke, the
cocaine owl joke with Trump on.

1177
01:07:46,720 --> 01:07:49,640
It's one of the funniest pieces
of content I've ever seen in my

1178
01:07:49,640 --> 01:07:54,440
life.
Like and he just it completely

1179
01:07:54,440 --> 01:07:56,120
indifferent of who was sending
in front of him.

1180
01:07:56,120 --> 01:07:58,560
Like funny thing to say, Trump
didn't even get it.

1181
01:07:58,960 --> 01:08:03,960
And like he it was so funny.
So yeah, I'm glad to hear that

1182
01:08:03,960 --> 01:08:06,680
that was the experience.
No, he was he was great.

1183
01:08:06,680 --> 01:08:08,600
He.
Was he was really interesting?

1184
01:08:09,280 --> 01:08:10,120
Yeah.
Super bad.

1185
01:08:10,120 --> 01:08:11,920
I was.
I was like, honestly kind of

1186
01:08:11,920 --> 01:08:14,760
bummed when it was over.
Like it was a fun, fun deal, I

1187
01:08:14,840 --> 01:08:16,520
bet.
Yeah, I can't imagine.

1188
01:08:16,520 --> 01:08:19,120
That was wild.
Though thinking about like, I

1189
01:08:19,120 --> 01:08:22,279
didn't, I didn't know the timing
of that lined up like that.

1190
01:08:22,359 --> 01:08:27,760
Yeah, that's, that's man, one of
those moments in life that you

1191
01:08:27,760 --> 01:08:29,240
only get a few of.
Yeah.

1192
01:08:29,240 --> 01:08:35,120
That it's, you know, regardless
of the, you know, the platforms

1193
01:08:35,120 --> 01:08:38,680
or how things were going to move
on from there.

1194
01:08:39,040 --> 01:08:41,840
It's like, OK, two weeks ago we
interviewed who?

1195
01:08:42,359 --> 01:08:44,479
And I'm here.
And then next week he's doing

1196
01:08:44,479 --> 01:08:47,359
who, what are we going to talk
about?

1197
01:08:47,479 --> 01:08:49,640
You know, so it was funny
because I.

1198
01:08:49,640 --> 01:08:52,840
The first thing I did was go and
like check out his back catalog,

1199
01:08:52,960 --> 01:08:55,359
you know, like I wanted to see
like, OK, well, who's he?

1200
01:08:55,720 --> 01:08:58,319
And and so, you know, I went and
looked at some of the people

1201
01:08:58,319 --> 01:09:01,160
he'd had on and, and listened to
the, you know, and, and some of

1202
01:09:01,160 --> 01:09:03,640
them were honestly, because one
of the things I actually really

1203
01:09:03,640 --> 01:09:06,120
do love about him, appreciate
about him is like the diversity

1204
01:09:06,120 --> 01:09:10,080
of his guests, you know that I
mean, he's and so, you know,

1205
01:09:10,120 --> 01:09:11,640
there are a bunch of people I
never heard of.

1206
01:09:11,640 --> 01:09:13,800
So I listened to the Dax Shepard
episode.

1207
01:09:13,800 --> 01:09:15,680
That was a pretty good one.
Yeah, it's a great one.

1208
01:09:15,680 --> 01:09:16,600
I.
Really liked it.

1209
01:09:17,399 --> 01:09:19,560
And listened to that and I
thought, OK, this is good.

1210
01:09:19,560 --> 01:09:23,000
And then he had I can't remember
her name right, Nikki Glazer on

1211
01:09:23,000 --> 01:09:24,080
and I listened to that one, that
one.

1212
01:09:24,600 --> 01:09:26,560
It's hilarious.
But that was one where he asked

1213
01:09:26,560 --> 01:09:30,800
some questions where I thought
ish like am I going to get am I

1214
01:09:31,319 --> 01:09:32,439
going to get questions like
this?

1215
01:09:33,479 --> 01:09:37,359
And then, but then I, so I, I
said I did that interview.

1216
01:09:37,359 --> 01:09:42,240
Actually, I think it was in May
or June and it didn't come out

1217
01:09:42,240 --> 01:09:44,520
for I think he was saving it for
the election.

1218
01:09:44,560 --> 01:09:46,960
It didn't come out for a really
long time.

1219
01:09:47,520 --> 01:09:50,240
But in the meantime, he had
interviewed Trump and Sanders

1220
01:09:50,240 --> 01:09:54,520
and all these others, you know,
as overtime until, as I was

1221
01:09:54,520 --> 01:09:57,440
watching him like become like
grow and grow and grow.

1222
01:09:58,440 --> 01:10:02,520
And it was so, but you're right.
I mean, this is like a like a

1223
01:10:02,840 --> 01:10:05,520
once in a lifetime kind of
thing, you know, got to go check

1224
01:10:05,520 --> 01:10:07,360
things out.
And it was, it was cool.

1225
01:10:07,520 --> 01:10:11,080
And he reached out to you.
It's like, come on, another one

1226
01:10:11,080 --> 01:10:12,520
of those life's packages.
Yes.

1227
01:10:12,800 --> 01:10:13,800
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.

1228
01:10:14,720 --> 01:10:18,320
Yeah, so it was, it was great.
And then, you know, actually he

1229
01:10:18,320 --> 01:10:24,440
also, I think a couple days
after me, Scott Galloway was on

1230
01:10:24,440 --> 01:10:29,120
who does he's a professor at
NYU, does the Pivot podcast.

1231
01:10:29,360 --> 01:10:35,920
He's A and so just a super,
super fascinating interview that

1232
01:10:35,920 --> 01:10:40,240
had that kind of shifted a lot
of my thinking around anger and

1233
01:10:40,240 --> 01:10:43,520
around masculinity and stuff
like that.

1234
01:10:43,520 --> 01:10:46,560
A really good interview.
But then I got to, I went on

1235
01:10:46,680 --> 01:10:49,520
Scott Galloway's podcast a
couple days later through that,

1236
01:10:49,520 --> 01:10:52,560
like Galloway saw me on his show
and contacted me.

1237
01:10:52,560 --> 01:10:54,720
And so it kind of got to build
off that, which was fun.

1238
01:10:54,920 --> 01:10:57,960
Got it that he's unfamiliar.
To me, I haven't heard the

1239
01:10:57,960 --> 01:11:01,160
pivot, not the not the pivot.
The retired sports guys, I'm

1240
01:11:01,560 --> 01:11:03,480
like Ryan Clark in them, no
different.

1241
01:11:03,480 --> 01:11:06,600
The pivot, Yeah, I think so.
Yeah, I was less.

1242
01:11:06,600 --> 01:11:10,720
Familiar with his I was less
familiar with him.

1243
01:11:10,720 --> 01:11:14,920
He he, he had the most popular
Ted talk in the country this

1244
01:11:14,920 --> 01:11:19,760
year, in the world this year.
And it's, it was really

1245
01:11:19,760 --> 01:11:23,640
interesting.
He, there's some things about

1246
01:11:23,640 --> 01:11:26,640
Scott Galloway that I've, that
I, that I'm not crazy about,

1247
01:11:26,640 --> 01:11:28,280
much like Theo.
I mean, people are complicated.

1248
01:11:28,320 --> 01:11:30,600
You know, there are things about
him that I'm not crazy about,

1249
01:11:30,600 --> 01:11:35,360
but he, he, his, I think his Ted
talk is about how we're leaving

1250
01:11:35,360 --> 01:11:38,440
young men behind.
And he cites a lot of research

1251
01:11:38,440 --> 01:11:42,280
about how young men are, are
struggling right now in a, in a

1252
01:11:42,280 --> 01:11:44,840
host of ways.
And he makes the argument that

1253
01:11:44,840 --> 01:11:46,680
there are things that we're
doing in society that are

1254
01:11:46,680 --> 01:11:49,120
exacerbating that.
And I think some of that

1255
01:11:49,120 --> 01:11:51,440
argument's really strong and
some of that argument isn't so

1256
01:11:51,440 --> 01:11:53,600
strong, but he's interesting
guy.

1257
01:11:53,960 --> 01:11:55,840
So.
But that discernment's OK.

1258
01:11:55,880 --> 01:11:57,520
That's exactly what we're
talking about.

1259
01:11:57,520 --> 01:12:02,000
Like it's, it's kind of a pipe
dream to like, my best friends

1260
01:12:02,000 --> 01:12:04,520
in the entire world.
I have things that I disagree

1261
01:12:04,520 --> 01:12:07,720
with them about, you know, and I
think that's probably the path

1262
01:12:07,720 --> 01:12:09,480
forward.
The path forward is just being

1263
01:12:09,480 --> 01:12:14,760
OK with that and discerning
where your beliefs lie, being

1264
01:12:14,760 --> 01:12:19,040
confident in where they are, and
then figuring out which ones

1265
01:12:19,040 --> 01:12:22,520
you're willing to, you know,
shout from the mountaintop.

1266
01:12:22,600 --> 01:12:24,120
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.

1267
01:12:25,080 --> 01:12:27,080
All right, man.
It was great chatting with you.

1268
01:12:27,160 --> 01:12:28,360
Yeah, it was great talking to
you.

1269
01:12:28,360 --> 01:12:28,760
Thanks.
So.

1270
01:12:28,760 --> 01:12:30,640
Much for having me on.
This has been fantastic.

1271
01:12:30,760 --> 01:12:32,440
Absolutely.
Good luck with the pod, I hope.

1272
01:12:32,440 --> 01:12:34,600
Everything goes well for you.
Thank you very much.

1273
01:12:34,600 --> 01:12:37,000
Same to you.
And yeah, this is great.

1274
01:12:37,160 --> 01:12:37,960
Alright, take care, Ryan.