Dr. John Utrie - Psychedelic Therapy, Cluster Headaches & Improving Lives - Ep#55

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What's up friends?
Welcome back to Rooted

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Wisconsin.
Appreciate you for clicking

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another episode.
Grateful to have you here.

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Today's episode is with Doctor
John Utree, retired pelvic

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surgeon who used psychedelic
therapy, primarily psilocybin,

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to mitigate the effects of and
manage cluster headaches.

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I didn't know a ton about
cluster headaches before our

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conversation, and I learned a
lot.

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They're also called suicide
headaches, and that moniker was

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all too real for John at one
time, where he made the

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conscious decision to stay here
with us on Earth instead of

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maybe going to the next realm or
another realm.

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That's a heavy, heavy topic to
get into.

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So we discussed that why they're
called suicide headaches and

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some of the effects that happen
when they become active.

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We talk about some great, great
research that's happened

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throughout the years on the
correlation between psychedelic

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therapy and mitigating cluster
headache effects.

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And we talk about psychedelics
more as a whole too, and how the

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lens of our society is shifting
to see the betterment that can

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come out of society with
psychedelic use.

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John continually speaks through
the lens of in a clinical

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setting and when you listen to
you know me, when you listen to

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Huberman, anybody who's talking
about psychedelic therapy,

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that's a definitely an important
caveat to consider in the

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conversation.
But whether it's ibogaine in

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Texas, MDMA therapy, LSD
therapy, psilocybin and and

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mushroom therapy, all the way to
a friend of a friend of mine

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getting quote UN quote,
prescribed a vape pen of DMT,

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which is wild in such a good
way, as long as, you know, taken

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care of and and used correctly.
I see such great things coming

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to society because of this.
And we talked about all that and

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a whole lot more.
John admittedly says the first,

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you know, portion of his life,
his formative years were on the

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straight and narrow.
He was a medical doctor, surgeon

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and was against a lot of the
things that ultimately he ended

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up developing A favorable
opinion towards as psychedelics.

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And I think one of the most
poignant things or one of the

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most memorable things that he
said was that one of the biggest

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benefits of his psychedelic
therapy was that it made him

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realize the world is worth
sticking around for and you

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don't have to dismiss yourself
by your own hand.

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That is heavy, my friends,
Heavy.

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Let's get into the episode.
Before we do that, a massive

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And without further ado, let's

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get into it, Doctor.
John Utree Right now what I

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hear, I, I see kind of
psychedelics and psilocybin

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getting a lot of publicity in
the kind of depression area with

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the treatment I'm, I'm talking
about.

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And I, I've listened to a few
podcasts, I've done some reading

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about that area and I find it
fascinating your case that we

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talked about.
I hadn't heard about it all with

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the with the cluster headaches
and and that.

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So I don't know if it's where we
start or where we end, but I

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know that that's what intrigued
me about your.

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Well, you know, I think talking
about the a medical application

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as opposed to a psychological
mental health kind of

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explanation makes a lot of sense
because people can latch on to

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that.
You know, some, you know,

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everyone's kind of had a
headache for the most part.

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And it's interesting too, as the
approval process has gone

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forward and looking at this and
studying it through different

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normal government channels and
things like that, having a

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medical condition going
alongside it helps shepherd it

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through the various approval
processes.

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Because, you know, at the end of
the day, we want any

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intervention that a person have
to be safe and effective and we

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don't want people to be
exploited by it.

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And I think that that lens that
you have is pretty unique,

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right, because of your history
and your past and your career.

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Well, you know, I, I, you know,
I'm sitting here as an, as an

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older guy who is, you know, past
retirement age now, who pretty

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much told the straight and
normal was straight and narrow

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my entire life.
And about 30 years ago, I got

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plagued with this horrible
headache condition called

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cluster headaches.
And cluster headaches have been

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described as suicide headaches
because there's a very

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disproportionate number of
people who are afflicted by them

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who end up taking their own
lives because the, the pain is

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basically unmanageable.
And they're, they're very

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distinct.
They, they, they're at one side

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of the head.
They're usually behind the eye.

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It, it feels like someone's
driving a spike through your

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head.
The attacks can last anywhere

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from 15 minutes to three hours
and are completely disabling.

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They're also different because
people tend to move.

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Around a lot.
Because they're agitated, they

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they're not photosensitive like
a typical migraine headache.

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The headaches are thought to be
mitigated or arise in a part of

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the brain called the
hypothalamus.

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And and because of that, we see
them come in seasonal episodic

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route.
So typically folks who have

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cluster headaches like myself
will start having them around

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the fall equinox when the
daylight and sun in the night

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time I was about equal.
And then they'll they'll extend

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towards the spring equinox and
then sometimes they'll fall off

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and and a cycle can last
anywhere from a month.

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To a year.
And the the attacks come

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generally at night, so they'll
wake you up from a dead sleep at

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the same time every night and
sometimes multiple times, like

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in my case, 1333430, sometimes
during the day, like clockwork.

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Like that.
Exactly like clockwork.

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Wow.
And they're sometimes called

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alarm clock headaches as well.
But you know, at the end of the

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day, you know that it's the kind
of thing that you actively plan

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to end your own life.
Because it's they're so

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horrible.
And I had gotten to that point

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about 10 years ago where there
was an active plan in place.

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It was just your quality of life
is just so shocked and you

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basically stick around for the
people that you love and it's

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just not worth it anymore.
And then I saw a National

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Geographic special.
And this is actually available

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on YouTube if you Google
National Geographic and cluster

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headaches of a gentleman from
Texas who I've come to meet and

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his they call him Hollywood now
because he was on National

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Geographic.
And what they were talking about

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at that time was that he was
growing his own psychedelic

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mushrooms and he was using the
mushrooms and they would abort

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the headache cycle.
So that he was having much more.

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It, it, it, it, it took away his
suicidal ideation and it also

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took away the problem of the
headaches.

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And then so the question is,
where the heck did this guy get

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the idea to do this?
And as it turns out, if you

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remember the dawn of the
Internet, back when we used to

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just type line code to go.
And Netscape was basically a

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line code without any kind of
graphic user interface.

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Well, back then we, I can't
remember what the chat rooms

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were called, but they had little
discussion groups, right?

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And you'd go forward and there
was a group of people with

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cluster headaches at that time
who were discussing it.

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And this guy chirped in and
said, you know, I took some LSD

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and my cluster headache cycle
didn't come this year.

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And so everybody called bullshit
on this.

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And but then they started to
look at it and sure as heck,

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they started using some LSD and
people were reporting good

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results that their headaches
were going away.

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And so the problem, of course,
is getting real LSD is

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problematic.
And someone's like, well, you

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know, mushrooms work the same
way in the same receptor.

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They work on a specific
serotonin receptor and let's

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give it a try.
So they tried mushrooms and,

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and, and, and, and this, the
person who made the report was

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from Scotland and they have a
special kind of mushroom in

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Scotland and it's called a
Trinity and it's a psychedelic

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mushroom with psilocybin in it,
which is one of the active

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ingredients.
And they were reporting some

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success.
So within this underground group

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that we're talking to each
other, people started to spread

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the word that these that these
these plants with psychedelic

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properties or what are now what
we call classic psychedelics,

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which means they engage a
serotonin receptor.

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It's specifically a A5 HTA
receptor.

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There's all kinds of numbers and
that's not important, but

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there's basically that's, that's
a mescaline, LSD and silicon or

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psilocybin.
And the, and people were

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playing, you know, within their,
they, they became a self help

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group called cluster Busters.
And cluster Busters is a

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not-for-profit.
And they have a conference every

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year where people get together
and everyone's saying this

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works.
We really need to prove that it

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works because like everything
else, everyone can speculate on

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what works and what doesn't
work.

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But you really need proof.
And, and, and unless you're

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involved in science, you, you,
you really need to have a

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control group and you have so
you, so you know that it's

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actually working.
And it's not just the power of

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your brain, because the power of
our brains is enormous.

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And at that point, it's citizen
science.

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Right.
That's exactly what the

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actually, that's where the, the
the term came out of.

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They're they're, they're kind of
the genesis of that term citizen

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science.
Because what happened was there

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was a guy named Andrew Sewell at
Yale and they got his ear after

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going, you know, they went to
Harvard and to all the Ivy

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League schools and said, this is
what we're seeing.

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Would you be interested in doing
it?

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And they wanted to go to high
integrity schools and Sewell,

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who was in the psychiatry
department, sent out a

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questionnaire and got a response
of a couple 100 people, which is

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pretty amazing for a
questionnaire.

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And it showed that of the people
who use these things, the

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psychedelics, that they were
able to better manage their

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headaches and in many cases
completely wipe them out.

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So that's, So what Cluster
Buster's does is part of their

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mission is support people who
have this headache disorder with

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conventional treatments, make
them aware of how to access

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conventional treatments because
because it's a rare disorder, so

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not many physicians know
actually how to help.

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And then for people who are
interested in pursuing the

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psychedelic aspect of it, it
helps them.

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So rolling back to where I
started rambling here, the I'm

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like, well, you know, maybe I
can break some rules, you know

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what whatever society says,
because if the choice is not

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being here or trying something
illegal seems like a reasonable

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thing to do.
So then I started to do some

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reading and you know, you go
back into the late 50s, early

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60s when psychedelics came on
the scene with Timothy Leary at

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Harvard and things like that.
There was a lot of exciting

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research going on in
psychedelics.

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The Bill, who started Alcoholics
Anonymous, actually attributed

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his soberiety to the use of LSD.
Which now is being proven.

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Right and right.
And a lot of that came out of

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Canada and he wanted to make it
part of the program.

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But the board of Alcoholic
Anonymous, wisely, I think, said

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that's not really the image we
want to portray.

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And, you know, we don't want to
compromise sobriety.

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But the reality is that the
psychedelics themselves are not

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addictive at all.
And then the the other things

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that were happening is that, you
know, people were feeling one

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with themselves and and unified
around the world.

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You get this feeling of, you
know, we're all included in the

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world together and it creates a
little bit of liberalisation of

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people.
But you know, there's a lot of

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Seminole books that came out of
that era that I read because,

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you know, it's with myself
wanting to have an empiric

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background and having an
evidence based background for

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things and doing something that
I was contemplating doing

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something.
I was extraordinarily

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uncomfortable doing because I
grew up in the Nancy Reagan era.

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This is your brain on drugs.
I did lots and lots of reading.

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And once you get past the mid
60s, everything after that is

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derivative of everything that
was written before that.

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So there's really no new
information until recently.

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And so after about three years
of thinking about this, you end

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up sourcing some material in
what otherwise would be a legal

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environment and.
You give it a try and you know,

237
00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:58,320
and then it changes your life
and I think a lot of people

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report that.
In many different ways that that

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00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:06,720
stifling that 567 decades of
stifling of new information is

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00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:09,600
such a bummer.
What you think about what would

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00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:13,480
happen is, you know, you had
it's a classic case of things

242
00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:17,320
going off the rails and then
over paternalistic behavior by

243
00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:20,040
certain groups and misused by
other groups, right.

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00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:23,000
So you think about the summer of
love and 60s, what was going on,

245
00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:27,800
Vietnam was going on.
You had this very authoritarian

246
00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:31,840
government kind of thing.
You know, it was the rise of the

247
00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:34,960
Richard Nixon kind of mentality
of, of control.

248
00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:37,200
And you, and you have to
remember that the Stone was part

249
00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:44,120
of that back in the day and
Roger Stone and, and what was

250
00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:47,520
happening, you know, when you
really look back at it is you're

251
00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:49,800
having all these folks who
wanted to make the world a

252
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better place.
And and then you had this

253
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charismatic leader, Timothy
Leary, who was painting outside

254
00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:58,240
the lines.
You had people with a certain

255
00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:02,280
amount of wealth promoting these
things, but then it went off the

256
00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:04,880
rails because it got out into
the ecosystem and before we

257
00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:08,400
understood exactly what was
going on it, it was a party

258
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drug.
Kind of like what happened to

259
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MDMA, you know, a decade.
Or two later.

260
00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:16,920
But then, you know, the reality
is while the Summer of Love was

261
00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:21,960
going on, there were hundreds of
legitimate research programs

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going on.
Throughout the world, looking at

263
00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:30,960
the use of LSD specifically in
the treatment of mental illness

264
00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:37,720
and trauma and things like that.
And then when the powers that be

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led by, you know, Nixon ET all
decided that this was a threat

266
00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:48,040
to independent threat was a, a
threat to the status quo.

267
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All of a sudden you took these
non addictive substances that

268
00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:57,720
really had no history of harm
when used properly under proper

269
00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:02,640
supervision and put them in
category one of drugs, which

270
00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:09,640
means it has no medical use and
it's addictive and totally wiped

271
00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:13,160
out people's research programs
that have been incredibly

272
00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:15,120
promising up until that point in
time.

273
00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:18,960
Shut them down overnight and so
then we've had two or three

274
00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:23,040
decades of lost.
Opportunity.

275
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But now we're so bothered by,
you know, treatment resistant

276
00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:34,080
depression, anxiety and post
traumatic stress disorder and

277
00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:39,440
moral injury.
That people are rediscovering

278
00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:43,080
these medications, drugs,
whatever you want to call them

279
00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:48,520
in a way to help improve
people's lives, but you end up

280
00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:51,000
in a situation where the wheels
can still come off the train

281
00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:55,320
because when if it leaks out
into, you know, the general.

282
00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:58,360
Public without proper
understanding and taking

283
00:16:58,360 --> 00:16:59,960
shortcuts.
You know, if you do Cliff Notes

284
00:16:59,960 --> 00:17:02,280
on drugs, that's a bad thing.
Absolutely.

285
00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:04,280
Yeah.
So there's a lot of things in

286
00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:08,000
there that I want to talk about.
1 is that concept and the

287
00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:12,240
overall supervision And actually
just of note, bringing up that

288
00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:17,160
the peer reviewed research now
that's coming out with the level

289
00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:23,680
of efficacy between it and like
SSR is and the positive benefits

290
00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:26,800
that are finally being proven in
a clinical setting are great.

291
00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:29,880
And I want to emphasize that
clinical setting piece and I

292
00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:32,200
want to see what your experience
was because you mentioned

293
00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:35,440
supervision in there.
And I know that a lot of that

294
00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:41,160
research is not your
prototypical psychedelic trip or

295
00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:43,360
journey that people talk about
where you go to a music

296
00:17:43,360 --> 00:17:49,160
festival.
It's eyes closed like dark, and

297
00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:53,440
certain types of music even are
being used, but in a clinical

298
00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:56,400
fashion that is repeated and
used.

299
00:17:57,120 --> 00:18:01,240
What was your experience at the
time that you started diving

300
00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:02,760
into it for your cluster
headaches?

301
00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:04,720
What was the clinical setting
like?

302
00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:07,360
Was it similar where you were?
They say that right now

303
00:18:08,120 --> 00:18:10,120
everything I've heard, like
Huberman and everybody talking

304
00:18:10,120 --> 00:18:13,200
about it is eyes closed for at
least like 90% of the journey

305
00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:17,520
and a specific cadence of music
and stuff.

306
00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:20,480
What was yours like?
Well, just to back up 'cause

307
00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:23,960
I'll get into that in a second,
but, you know, music is

308
00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:25,600
critical.
And if you look at the things

309
00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:30,200
that Huberman says and then that
predates him as Terence McKenna,

310
00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:35,440
who was kind of like a this
Celtic God and this charismatic

311
00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:39,000
Irishman talking about, you
know, these experiences and a

312
00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:40,840
much more entertaining sort of
way.

313
00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:46,200
So Huberman is pretty dour when
it comes to by comparison, but

314
00:18:46,360 --> 00:18:50,280
but fantastic information.
It all boils down to set and

315
00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:51,720
setting.
So if you look back at the

316
00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:56,040
original things that kind of got
this started, there's a book

317
00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:58,160
called The Psychedelic
Experience, which is kind of a

318
00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:01,520
primer for learning how to go on
a trip.

319
00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:03,680
And it's based on the Tibetan
Book of the Dead.

320
00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:07,840
And it was published by Timothy
Leary while he was still at

321
00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:13,920
Harvard, along with a guy named
Alperin who became Ram Dass and

322
00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:17,960
who has recently passed away.
But it's basically these are the

323
00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:20,840
things you need to go because
these sort of.

324
00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:25,000
Substances.
Are amplifiers, so if you go

325
00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:29,240
into something anxiety ridden or
with something negative on your

326
00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:31,320
mind, that's going to get
amplified.

327
00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:36,960
If you go in with with a
positive intention, wanting

328
00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:40,480
something to go good, you're
going to be able to work through

329
00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:42,240
that.
Now, some of this is dose

330
00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:47,120
related and some of it isn't,
but you and you then you have to

331
00:19:47,120 --> 00:19:50,880
be in a safe place.
So I can't speak at all to the

332
00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:56,160
recreational side of it because
I can't imagine putting myself

333
00:19:56,160 --> 00:20:00,560
in that position because it, it
would be very non therapeutic

334
00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:04,600
and quite recreational.
And I, I don't condemn that, but

335
00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:07,560
I, I would certainly never
condone that, especially with a

336
00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:10,400
young brain that's still making
neural connections.

337
00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,400
And by that I'm saying below the
age of 25.

338
00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:16,120
Another very important.
Piece yeah this is you know the

339
00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:18,520
the you know this isn't fun and
games this is about making

340
00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:23,640
yourself better so having said
that what we've learned about

341
00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:28,680
treatment resistant things I
depression and anxiety and

342
00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:32,160
trauma is that what these
substances do is they lower the

343
00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:36,320
threshold for intervention.
That means that you're inside,

344
00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:42,680
your intrinsic resistance is
lowered and it allows for you to

345
00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,840
do the hard work necessary to
resolve those problems.

346
00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:49,200
And generally you need someone
to help get you through that.

347
00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:56,080
And so unfortunately, because we
live in 144 character society,

348
00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:00,280
people want the short easy
answers and that's not the case.

349
00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:02,360
So when you even when you look
at something like ketamine,

350
00:21:02,360 --> 00:21:07,600
which is not a true psychedelic,
but legal and very accessible

351
00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:16,840
now to folks, or you look at
psilocybin or LSD or MDMA, all

352
00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:18,920
of which are being actively
studied now.

353
00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:23,000
It's not just taking the
medicine and getting better.

354
00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:27,080
It's doing the work generally
guided by a therapist.

355
00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:34,800
And when you the most published
work in this area is on death

356
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:37,200
and dying and end of life
anxiety.

357
00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:40,720
And, and that was done at Johns
Hopkins and led by a guy named

358
00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:46,560
Roland Griffin.
And Doctor Griffin did this

359
00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:50,360
amazing study of people who were
in Hospice situations who were

360
00:21:50,360 --> 00:21:53,360
just, they couldn't have a
smooth death because their

361
00:21:53,360 --> 00:21:57,640
anxiety was so bad.
And they set up a protocol where

362
00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:01,520
somewhere two people would sit
with the person with a blindfold

363
00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:03,840
on.
And they had curated music, a

364
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:09,480
lot of it was classical.
And they would let the person

365
00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:13,800
have the experience.
Without intervening in that

366
00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:17,320
experience by making them talk
and then having them integrate

367
00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:23,960
the experience afterwards.
And there were no participants

368
00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:28,080
that didn't benefit from that.
They had mystical experiences.

369
00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:33,240
They were, I think they gained
an understanding about how we're

370
00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:37,240
composed of energy, which is a
whole nother discussion, but and

371
00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:42,480
how that they can see beyond
their existence at that point in

372
00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:44,520
time, which I think gave them
great comfort.

373
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:49,680
But that was kind of the genesis
of the kickoff of modern use of

374
00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:52,600
these substances with the death
and dying angle of it.

375
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,720
And then it went into the other
things we talked about before.

376
00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,160
And in that protocol was exactly
what I was Speaking of, the

377
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:03,160
blindfolding.
And it's virtually, some people

378
00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:07,040
say different things, but I
think like just letting go is 1

379
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:08,880
and virtually that opens the
door.

380
00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:13,560
And then that critical piece at
the end of it's not always

381
00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:16,040
there's so much during the
experience, especially in that

382
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:20,080
time when the anxiety is high.
It's being guided through

383
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:22,920
afterwards and after the
experience is done then a lot of

384
00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:24,360
the work happens, right?
Absolutely.

385
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:28,480
If you do these things without
integrating them and if you do

386
00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:31,920
them without intention, you're
not going to get the benefits.

387
00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:35,120
You might have a fantastic time
or you might have a horror show

388
00:23:35,120 --> 00:23:39,680
on your hands, but the reality,
you know, so if you talk about

389
00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:43,200
people at Burning Man who may or
may not be doing certain things,

390
00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:48,320
the reality is that that is not
a situation where you are doing

391
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:51,480
work to improve yourself.
You're, you're there to have

392
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:53,280
fun.
Now, are they mutually

393
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:54,240
exclusive?
No.

394
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:56,520
But if you're going to choose
something from society as a

395
00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,920
whole, I would advocate for
helping people who we can't help

396
00:23:59,920 --> 00:24:02,400
because modern medicine is
horrible at depression.

397
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:06,200
It's horrible at anxiety.
We've proven that we can't take

398
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:10,080
care of moral injury or PTSD
effective way, and as a matter

399
00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:15,520
of fact, up until recently, the
leading funder of psychedelic

400
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:20,520
research is the US Army to help
our servicemen and women help

401
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:23,920
understand how to best help them
when they come back from the

402
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:28,160
service they've given us.
Have you like been aware of

403
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:29,480
that?
What's going on in Texas right

404
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:30,400
now?
All of that stuff.

405
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:33,080
I'm not.
I'm trying to remember.

406
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:34,360
I always forget the name of
this.

407
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,600
I always want to say Ivermectin,
but that was the that was the

408
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:41,320
COVID thing.
But there's in Texas.

409
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,440
Former Rick Governor, Governor
Rick Perry.

410
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:48,440
Yeah, started.
I can't remember the name of the

411
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:50,440
drug right now.
You know it.

412
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:53,480
I'm familiar with what you're
talking about, Rick Perry.

413
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:57,800
So there's an organization
called the Multidisciplinary

414
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,600
Association of Psychedelic
Studies, and they're kind of a

415
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,400
clearing house, and they've been
working the last several years

416
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:08,400
on making MDMA, which is
ecstasy, as a street name to be

417
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:12,000
available for counseling.
And they've done some clinical

418
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,160
trials with it.
And they were expecting FDA

419
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,960
approval, but there was some
problems with their study

420
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,640
design, according to the FDA,
and they got declined.

421
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:23,120
And so they're resubmitting.
But they put on this meeting,

422
00:25:23,120 --> 00:25:26,080
and it used to be every six
years and now it's every other

423
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:27,840
year.
In the last two meetings, which

424
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,760
have been in Denver, and the
last one being June of this

425
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,160
year, Rick Perry shows up.
So here's a bunch of old

426
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:39,120
hippies, a bunch of people who
are anthropologists studying

427
00:25:39,120 --> 00:25:41,840
because a lot of these are plant
medicines that come from, you

428
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:44,640
know, South American or African,
places like that.

429
00:25:46,120 --> 00:25:49,040
But here's Rick Perry running
around in his ultra conservative

430
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:51,280
unabashedly saying this stuff is
so.

431
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,320
Important for our veterans, and
he's a strong advocate, so you

432
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,520
can see people with different
political points of view on the

433
00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:00,400
spectrum coming together because
they recognize the importance of

434
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,320
this for the people who serve us
and protect us.

435
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,440
Absolutely, yeah.
And he has come around an MDMA

436
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:08,840
too, which is fascinating.
I, I can't remember the other

437
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:10,800
one.
What's fascinating about it is

438
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:13,960
about five years ago now, I was
going to a different type of

439
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:18,320
academic conference and I spoke
with a guy from Texas on the

440
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:21,080
plane that was a lobbyist.
And he was tight with Rick

441
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:23,080
Perry.
And at that time, he was telling

442
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,880
me how he was starting.
Maybe it was.

443
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:26,880
Yeah, it was about five years
ago.

444
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,800
He was telling me how he was
starting to come around to

445
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,800
psychedelics and research.
And I was fascinated by the

446
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,000
conversation.
I said OK, this is the direction

447
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:37,800
this is going to go then.
But you it only takes a family

448
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,320
member, right?
And actually or a friend, you

449
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:44,320
know, you know, we we and, and
we're doing this in Wisconsin.

450
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,360
Wisconsin has some very strange
laws about certain things and

451
00:26:47,360 --> 00:26:50,720
they were enacted because of a
family member of a legislator

452
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:55,040
having an adverse experience.
And so everyone got encumbered

453
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,880
with the legislation this person
thought was right because of

454
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:01,400
their individual circumstance.
So not a big fan of that, but

455
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:06,080
I'm a big fan of anybody who's
going to say we need to find

456
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:10,640
effective ways to treat problems
that we're can't take care of.

457
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:18,640
And depression, anxiety, trauma,
we're terrible at and we know I

458
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,360
won't say unequivocally, but as
close as you can get without

459
00:27:21,360 --> 00:27:25,280
saying it, that these things
went properly administered in

460
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:28,760
the right setting, setting, do
things that we've never been

461
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:32,120
able to do for folks before.
Absolutely.

462
00:27:32,120 --> 00:27:35,600
And that's what made me think of
that as a lot of his championing

463
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,200
of the cause was through the
lens of helping our veterans.

464
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:40,720
Exactly.
And it's to me, it's great

465
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:44,000
whatever route gets us to
helping the most amount of

466
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:45,960
people.
Like we need to have these

467
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,480
conversations and it needs to
gain this momentum in the

468
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:50,840
society we live in to have these
proof of cause.

469
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:52,880
Well, we have to have the
conversation and then we have

470
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:54,760
to, we have to look at things
when they're when they're

471
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,000
inconsistent, right?
Because, you know, you know,

472
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,800
when we mentioned before the
tipping points and I was kind of

473
00:27:59,920 --> 00:28:02,880
criticizing the the Nixon thing
and their motivations for doing

474
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:04,200
things.
You remember that was a time

475
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,880
when Art Linkletter's daughter
had died and he made it a big

476
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:13,000
mission that it was blamed on
the use of a psychedelic for

477
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,000
doing that, when in fact there
were other mitigating factors

478
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:19,680
involved in that situation that
led to her loss.

479
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:24,840
But he as a parent, as we all
would be so incredibly struck

480
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,960
with the horror of losing the
child, made it his mission to

481
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,320
attack one thing.
And so he was instrumental in

482
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,200
the public attitude about that
because of the bully pulp that

483
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:36,800
he held.
Okay, I'm unfamiliar with that.

484
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:37,760
I don't know.
About that at all?

485
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:42,200
Art Linkletter had that popular
talk show kind of thing, that

486
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,360
kind of the pre Oprah, pre Phil
Donahue era of.

487
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:47,120
Things.
Yeah, I'm vaguely familiar with

488
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:47,600
that.
Yeah, I'm.

489
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:50,800
Trying to think of, you know,
there was a number of different,

490
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,560
you know, it's kind of Johnny
Carson starting out era kind of

491
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:57,240
thing.
But he had a young daughter who

492
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:02,000
had allegedly taken some
psychedelic of some sort and had

493
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:04,360
jumped off the top of a building
and lost her life.

494
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:09,960
And the grief spurred him on to
attack and blame the drugs for

495
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,280
that.
But if you look at other points

496
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:17,320
of view on it, it seemed that
there were other mitigating

497
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:20,480
factors going on that
contributed, making it no less

498
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:26,640
tragic.
But it it, it had huge influence

499
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:31,760
over the public as they were
accepting the fact that we were

500
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:36,080
going to legislate these things
that out of availability.

501
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:38,440
And you know, of course, the
problem with that is when you

502
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,200
make something illegal, there's
always going to be a market for

503
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,400
it.
And so like now in society with

504
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:47,240
this resurgence of ideas about
micro dosing psychedelics and

505
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,800
things like that, people don't
know what they're getting.

506
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:54,240
And people are making, you know,
stuff in bathtubs and they don't

507
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:56,320
know what they're doing or
they're watching a YouTube video

508
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,440
on how to make this.
And you have no quality control.

509
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,040
You have no dosing control.
You have kids taking stuff they

510
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,760
think is one thing and then they
end up frying their brain and

511
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:11,120
then it's it's not good.
Yeah, absolutely.

512
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:16,840
In a lot of different that it
comes back to that story of that

513
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:20,720
like in that scenario, it is a
person with a story that has

514
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:24,440
legs with a platform and it can
weave us in different ways, but

515
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,200
often times the right answer
somewhere in the middle, right?

516
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:30,000
Well, it has to be in the
middle, right?

517
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,560
We just, we haven't had much
compromise in our world.

518
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,200
We need a little bit of
compromise because because none

519
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:43,280
of us are omnipotent and none of
us have the right answer.

520
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:45,360
And we should be respectful
enough to list other people's

521
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:47,960
points of view as long as they
can make a cogent argument.

522
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,040
Exactly.
Yeah, because there's certainly

523
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,120
realms that don't, right.
But I think that's one of the

524
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:57,160
one of the things, one of the
many things that drew me into

525
00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:00,160
our conversation is how you took
me through your story.

526
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:08,000
You went from a staunch rallying
against of something like this

527
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:14,920
to being pushed to a not even
proverbial to a real life Cliff

528
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:20,840
that open your mind to a
different way of looking at

529
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:23,040
things, right?
Well, it was more than that.

530
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:28,720
I think the I like the life
Cliff comment because that's

531
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:34,000
actually very accurate and it's
visually exactly where I was.

532
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:41,120
It took me from a tolerant
person of people who chose to do

533
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:43,960
mind altering things.
So, you know, I mean, you know,

534
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:46,000
I all grew up with people
getting high at the bus stop

535
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,880
smoking nickel bags or the swim
team from Madison coming back

536
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:53,000
from Hawaii with since 1,000,000
or what, you know, I mean, but

537
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:58,760
nothing I would partake in
myself because A, no interest

538
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:03,640
and, and B fear because I, I,
you know, I, I believe the

539
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,280
rhetoric and the propaganda that
was spewed out.

540
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,840
And so when I was faced with a
decision about whether this is

541
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,280
something you should look at,
look into or not, or something

542
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:19,680
you should try or consider or
not that pushed against, you

543
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:23,680
know, my mores and, and how I
was raised.

544
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:27,400
And so, and, and it required me
to have an open discussion with

545
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:29,880
lots of different people about
their thoughts and their

546
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:35,080
experiences with things.
And when you actually end up

547
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:40,720
having the experience, and
there's no doubt it shifts your

548
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,680
point of view.
And I would say I went from, you

549
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,200
know, a person tolerant of other
people doing other things and

550
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:54,240
being more conservative than not
to being on the other side of

551
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,560
that line of, you know, towards
being more liberal or not

552
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:01,320
because you really get an
appreciation of we're all in

553
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:05,680
this together.
You get this kind of unity kind

554
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:09,560
of feeling.
The one of the characteristics

555
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:11,640
of a psychedelic experience is
unity.

556
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,480
One of the other characteristics
is called ineffability, which

557
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,160
means you can't describe it.
And that's really true.

558
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:20,120
You can't.
You can't express to somebody

559
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:24,280
why it feels good to hug that
tree, but it does, and you

560
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,680
remember it.
Yeah, absolutely.

561
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,680
Yeah, some of the stories that
are coming out of DMT are wild

562
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:33,960
about that.
I, I know a person that that's

563
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:37,960
even in clinical settings now, I
know a person who was quote UN

564
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:39,960
quote prescribed.
I don't know if you even really

565
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:47,840
call it that, but given through
a practicing counsel, not a not

566
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:49,320
a counselor.
I I don't know what it would be,

567
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:51,960
but he, he ended up waiting
regardless.

568
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:56,040
In his hands.
He has a pen, a vape pen of DMT

569
00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:57,160
today.
Yeah.

570
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:00,160
I'm a little dry here, I'm going
to try to please.

571
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:02,800
Let's have one together.
All right, I'm with you So.

572
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:07,360
What is this stuff?
Anyway, so corral micro dosed

573
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,520
THC beverage.
Cheers my friend, I appreciate

574
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:15,400
the conversation.
OK, so you.

575
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:16,679
That's pretty tasty.
It is.

576
00:34:16,679 --> 00:34:18,960
It's delicious yeah, 0 calories,
vitamins, so.

577
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:21,199
Good.
I, I, I, I I'm going to just

578
00:34:21,199 --> 00:34:23,080
speculate on your friend.
OK, OK.

579
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:27,000
Colorado has some very
liberalized laws about plant

580
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:29,560
medicine and but you can't sell
it.

581
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,480
So if you went to Colorado to
buy mushrooms, you couldn't buy

582
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:36,360
them.
If you went to buy DMT, which is

583
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:42,560
derived from plant, you couldn't
buy or if you wanted the DMT

584
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,360
from Toad, which is another
popular thing.

585
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:50,000
And so, but what you can do is
you can talk to a person who's

586
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:54,239
an expert and they, and pay them
for a consultation and they can

587
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:58,120
gift you the material that they
can think is best for you.

588
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,120
So that's, I think that that's
the, the, the mechanism that may

589
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,200
be at play there.
Which is why I had a hard time

590
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:09,520
finding the words for it.
The you know, so it, you know,

591
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:13,480
it's, it's a little end run
about a well-intentioned set of

592
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:16,400
rules.
DMT also does fit into that

593
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:20,520
classic psychedelic category.
You know, the advantage of DMT

594
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:26,440
is that it's very short.
I mean, I think that they like

595
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:29,320
the executives launcher.
It's got some sort of a moniker

596
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:33,000
like that because it's a, it's a
less than 15 minute experience

597
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,240
for most people.
Although some people will live

598
00:35:35,240 --> 00:35:39,560
multiple lifetimes during the
experience, which is why

599
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:44,600
psilocybin or silicon with
mushrooms or LSD is so

600
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:50,800
challenging because it's a 6 to
8 hour experience with the

601
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,360
sillosin or psilocybin.
Sillosin is the active

602
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:56,000
ingredient of psilocybin when
it's processed through the

603
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,760
liver.
And then LSD is a 12 hour

604
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:02,680
experience.
Well, if you can't go to a

605
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:08,040
counselor or a mental health
professional and what their

606
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:11,680
hourly rate would be, I mean,
it's just impractical, right?

607
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:14,800
And it's similar with MDMA, you
know, with the MDMA studies, you

608
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:18,080
know, you basically camp a
person out for 4 to 8 hours or

609
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:19,640
they spend overnight at your
house.

610
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:24,120
So it becomes an access problem.
And you know, you, you, you know

611
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:27,320
to be able to afford it.
But even with.

612
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:30,200
The research that's impacting
the research because they use

613
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:31,960
search.
Or when you have to have the

614
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:34,960
time to do it, right.
Research is is funded, but it's

615
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,680
not that well funded and right,
you know, so that you know, you

616
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:41,480
have to be able to take someone
and make sure they're safe.

617
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:44,640
And you know, generally
speaking, you want them either

618
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:47,280
with someone that night or
spending the night in your guest

619
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:51,720
room if you were going to offer
that kind of a counseling

620
00:36:51,720 --> 00:36:53,040
service.
And this is what happens in

621
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:56,640
Oregon, for instance.
And I suppose it going to dark

622
00:36:56,640 --> 00:37:01,840
places that certain people talk
about, but the going back to the

623
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:09,360
DMT, the DMT is inhaled because
if it gets into your stomach, it

624
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:12,160
gets broken down by the enzymes
in your stomach.

625
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:16,800
And but the active ingredient
DMT is also what's the active

626
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:20,560
ingredient in Hiawasca.
The difference is that with

627
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:25,360
Hiawasca, they mix another root
that inhibits the enzyme that

628
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:27,560
breaks down the DMT.
And so that's why they have

629
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:33,200
these long experiences with
those substances.

630
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:38,480
DMT has been called the spirit
molecule because it naturally

631
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:42,840
occurs in our brain.
It's speculated that it's in the

632
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:47,720
pineal gland, which is a a
midline organ in the brain.

633
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,440
It actually is not part of
neurologic tissue.

634
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,120
It comes from the roof of the
mouth embryologically and

635
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:55,400
migrates up.
So it's a little bit separate.

636
00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:59,920
There was, throughout history
it's been thought of as the seed

637
00:37:59,920 --> 00:38:04,080
of the soul and that the
experience, the near death

638
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:08,600
experiences that people discuss
are actually DMT released from

639
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,480
your body endogenously, meaning
you made it yourself.

640
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:15,840
So when you supplement it.
People have remarkably weird

641
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:17,560
stories, don't they?
Elves.

642
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:20,760
The the lizard, The lizard
people, yeah.

643
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:24,520
But but they're remarkably
similar if you talk to people in

644
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,560
Africa who use ibogaine and
what's like that, or if you talk

645
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:29,680
to people in Peru.
That's what I was trying to

646
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:31,200
think of earlier, John.
It was ibogaine.

647
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:32,440
That's what they're using in
Texas.

648
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:36,360
Yeah, well, ibogaine.
The big claim to fame with

649
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:42,160
ibogaine is that it has the
ability to knockout cravings for

650
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:44,320
opiates.
Yes, and.

651
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:46,760
Which is unique to everything
else that we know.

652
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:50,320
At like an 80 percent, 90% clip.
Right, because I know we're

653
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:54,320
shifting gears here, but the
problem with opiate addiction is

654
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:57,280
that it's not a psychological
addiction, it's an actual

655
00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:00,560
physiologic addiction.
The opiate grabs on to a

656
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:07,680
receptor in the brain called the
MU receptor, MU and it and that.

657
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:10,760
And that's where the addiction
comes because it's a physiologic

658
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:15,960
change in that receptor.
And to reverse that is very

659
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:19,760
difficult because the body loves
that binding that goes on.

660
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:24,280
And what Ibogaine does is it
knocks out that binding and

661
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:29,120
takes away the craving almost
instantaneously.

662
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:31,600
And, and there's nothing else
that does that.

663
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:34,160
So if you can get someone who
has an opiate addiction,

664
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:36,560
Ibogaine in, in one of the
clinics, because they're

665
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:38,640
available in Mexico.
And I think there's some

666
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:46,200
experimental clinics the, as
long as they don't go back into

667
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:51,800
an atmosphere, that environment
that triggers them, they have to

668
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:56,040
work with the psychological
dependence on it out of habit,

669
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:59,560
just like smokers do, but
without the addictive physical

670
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:03,760
draw that you have to have it.
And so that's the wonderful

671
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:06,240
thing about ibogaine.
Now ibogaine comes from a.

672
00:40:06,240 --> 00:40:11,880
Root in Africa and it's used
much like ayahuasca is in Peru

673
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:16,640
and South America.
And it's different though, you

674
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:18,400
know?
They use it to see their

675
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:21,280
ancestors.
And it's more violent than

676
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:23,720
ayahuasca is, and it lasts
longer.

677
00:40:23,720 --> 00:40:28,840
It can last three days.
So if you can imagine being lost

678
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:35,640
in space for a couple hours on
mushrooms or a whole day on

679
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:39,040
ayahuasca, you can't imagine
what it'd be like to be lost for

680
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:42,520
three days, wondering afterwards
what you were doing on Ivy.

681
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:45,840
And so it's not a, it's a
challenging experience, but you

682
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:49,120
know, I mean, the recidivism
with opiate addiction and the

683
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:54,160
impact on society and, and
individuals is immeasurable.

684
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:56,840
And so it's certainly worth
looking at.

685
00:40:57,160 --> 00:40:58,880
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.

686
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:01,560
And that three days like you
have to imagine, can feel like

687
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:03,880
300 you.
Know well you.

688
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:05,480
Know.
You know, it's interesting

689
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:08,880
because if you're having a
psychedelic experience and, and,

690
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:12,440
and, and you've had a long dose,
time bends and folds.

691
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:17,040
And so people will look at their
watches after having lived their

692
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:20,480
entire life and two minutes have
gone by.

693
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:22,920
Right.
And to circle it back, that's a

694
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:26,240
really common DMT thing, right?
That's a That 15 minutes you

695
00:41:26,240 --> 00:41:28,440
were talking about often feels
like a lifetime.

696
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:30,560
Yeah, you lived a whole lifetime
and you came back into it.

697
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:33,640
So, you know, maybe this
conversation is somebody's DMT

698
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:34,760
trip.
Right.

699
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:38,920
Yeah, That's when it starts
getting fun to conjecture.

700
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:42,560
Yeah.
Yeah.

701
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:45,320
You know, I want to take us back
a little bit because there was a

702
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:48,080
piece that I've been interested
to hear about and you mentioned

703
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:50,400
it very briefly 10 minutes ago
or so.

704
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:54,760
You talked about having the
discussions with the people

705
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:58,440
around you when you decided to
start doing these things.

706
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:01,000
What was what was that like for
you?

707
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:03,080
Do you remember those?
Were those conversations

708
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:06,240
difficult?
Were they life altering?

709
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:10,200
You're very, you're so well
spoken and you know so much

710
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:12,160
about it now.
At that time it was probably

711
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:14,600
your knowledge of, even if it
was probably pretty fledgling.

712
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:17,080
How did you work through that in
conversations with the people

713
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:19,600
around you saying this is the
stuff I'm going to use?

714
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:22,920
Well, that's not what I said.
I said, you know, I'm thinking

715
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:24,440
about doing this.
What do you think?

716
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:28,000
You know, And you know, and you
know, my background is as a

717
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:35,680
physician and my, and so my
friend group is physicians for a

718
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:42,880
large group for a large part.
And I was very surprised with

719
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:46,160
the open mindedness of some of
that of most of the people.

720
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:48,480
But you know, a lot of these
people, you know, I was, you

721
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:50,960
know, I'd ask for help in trying
to manage the headaches over

722
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:52,440
time.
And they understood what was

723
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:54,880
going on.
And we all learned in medical

724
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:59,800
school, you know, how difficult
these headaches are.

725
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:07,040
And so the only there were a
couple people that, you know,

726
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:10,520
kind of fit into the ultra
conservative realm, both

727
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:12,920
philosophically and probably
religiously too.

728
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:16,080
But not to cast aspersions on
that.

729
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:22,160
But but, you know, even my
parents supported me.

730
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:24,160
OK.
And that's kind of along the

731
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:25,560
lines I was.
Thinking, you know, you know,

732
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:28,480
it's like, yeah, and I have a
lot of brothers and sisters and,

733
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:32,080
you know, the ones I knew would
support me, I told, and the ones

734
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:34,000
that I knew wouldn't support me,
I wouldn't talk to about it.

735
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:38,000
But you don't ask a question you
don't want the answer to, right?

736
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:40,920
Familiar.
But, but, but, you know, like I

737
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:45,680
said, you know, it was a long
ramp up to, to, to, to do that.

738
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:48,600
And then, you know, then you
wanted to do it in a way that,

739
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:53,480
you know, it didn't put you at
any kind of risk, so you had to

740
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:57,800
create a situation where you
weren't going to create a legal

741
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:02,480
risk for things because that can
be very disruptive, too.

742
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:05,920
Yeah, yeah.
And at that point had how open

743
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:09,240
were you about the place in life
that you had gotten to, about

744
00:44:09,240 --> 00:44:12,560
being really close to deciding
to take a different path and not

745
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:15,040
be?
Here anymore, that was just that

746
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:19,640
was kept within me.
That was within you, OK, that

747
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:26,000
that in itself had to be so
transformative to experience

748
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:29,120
that.
How long would you say you

749
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:33,240
experienced those thoughts and
feelings before you got this end

750
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:36,160
possibility?
Oh, years.

751
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:38,760
Wow.
I mean, it just escalated

752
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:41,000
because it became increasingly
hopeless.

753
00:44:41,240 --> 00:44:44,520
Yeah.
And, you know, the, you know, as

754
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:47,120
a professional person, you
identify yourself by your

755
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:51,880
profession and you take enormous
pride in the privilege of taking

756
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:56,200
care of people.
And if that's being challenged

757
00:44:57,160 --> 00:45:01,320
or you don't feel you can do
that effectively, that basically

758
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:03,480
takes your identity.
Absolutely.

759
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:08,880
And so I can feel it on the
edges.

760
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:12,840
You know, I've, you know, I'm a
very fortunate person in that I

761
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:18,680
have a incredible family that
it's kind of its own ecosystem

762
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:23,120
that, you know, allows for
discussions about things and

763
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:26,120
created a foundation where I
could cope with it.

764
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:29,160
So I had resources, but most
people don't have that depth of

765
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:31,280
resource.
And when you get to these

766
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:34,520
support groups, which I became
very active in, like the cluster

767
00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:40,160
Buster's I mentioned earlier,
you see a whole range of people

768
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:47,040
who have never been able to work
or have well, like an airline

769
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:50,120
pilot who can no longer fly
because if you got an attack

770
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:52,960
while you were flying, that
would be a problem.

771
00:45:54,360 --> 00:46:00,120
Or that your partner could no
longer put up with the enormous

772
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:03,280
amount of agony you were in.
And if you watch the video on

773
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:06,360
National Geographic and Cluster
Headache, you'll see what I'm

774
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:08,120
talking about.
Because what's there is not an

775
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:11,640
exaggeration and it's hard to
watch.

776
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:14,040
Yeah.
And even while you were

777
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:17,240
describing it earlier, I was
kind of picturing that in my

778
00:46:17,240 --> 00:46:20,160
mind.
It's almost I, I put myself in

779
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:23,080
like my shoes if I was going
through that or anybody.

780
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:26,480
I thought about living through
the lens of Wisconsin waking up

781
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:29,080
three times a night on specific
times.

782
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:31,720
This happens when there's less
sunlight.

783
00:46:31,720 --> 00:46:36,440
So there's already this kind of
downward trajectory of overall

784
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:42,200
feeling about positivity and
that combined with the physical

785
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:45,960
pain that you were like all
three of those combined you.

786
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:49,920
It's, I don't want to say it's
easy to imagine how you get to

787
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:52,120
that point, but it had to be so
miserable.

788
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:55,880
But it's a weird thing though,
you know, because the pain comes

789
00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:59,600
on like a bolt of lightning.
So you wake up from a dead sleep

790
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:04,920
in this excruciating pain.
One of the primary treatments

791
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:10,120
for the headache itself, you
know well, while it's acute or

792
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:14,000
happening is to breathe oxygen.
So you have to breathe 100%

793
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:17,960
oxygen at a very high flow rate
through a mask with special kind

794
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:21,560
of mask.
And another treatment is to

795
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:24,520
inject yourself with Imitrex,
which is a common migraine

796
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:29,800
medication.
And the, the problem with the

797
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:35,640
Imitrex is if you use it too
much and, and it's designed for

798
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:38,560
migraines so that it's, you
know, they don't recommend using

799
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:41,120
that more than just like 5 or 6
* a month.

800
00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:46,400
But if you use it too much, then
the headaches that come back are

801
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:49,720
even worse and they're called
rebound headaches.

802
00:47:49,720 --> 00:47:52,840
So you can't, and, and it has
effects on the cardiovascular

803
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:57,320
system and on the ability of the
gut to move nutrients through

804
00:47:57,320 --> 00:47:59,480
it.
So you get constipated and

805
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:02,720
trouble emptying your stomach.
So there's a lot of problems

806
00:48:02,720 --> 00:48:05,960
with the medication solution.
The oxygen works good, but you

807
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:08,280
got to walk around with a tank
and a mask on.

808
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:12,880
So, you know, you look like, you
know, you know, it's a little

809
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:16,600
bit unusual, but you know, I
keep oxygen in my car, I keep

810
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:24,120
oxygen in my office, I keep
oxygen in my house, in my

811
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:27,520
parents house.
It's all strategically placed

812
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:31,280
because if I don't have it and I
get an attack because, you know,

813
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:36,400
the mushrooms historically had
helped, but it's not something

814
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:40,200
you can do all the time and you
have to have backup plans.

815
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:44,520
And, but interestingly, until
about 5 years ago, the

816
00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:48,040
government insurance would not
pay for oxygen for cluster

817
00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:51,680
headaches.
And so because they wouldn't pay

818
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:56,720
for oxygen for people who needed
oxygen really and CMS, which is

819
00:48:56,720 --> 00:49:00,280
Center for Medicare and
Medicaid, you know, had a

820
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:04,920
negative went went to prove it.
And so people had to use welding

821
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:10,480
oxygen, which is very similar.
It's just not you can't be

822
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:11,760
guaranteed there's not oil in
it.

823
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:15,280
It's.
Just a minor issue.

824
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:25,600
But through organizations like
Cluster Busters and the National

825
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:29,880
Headache Society, you know, I
was part of a group that a small

826
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:32,440
part of a group that went to
Washington, the lobby for a few

827
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:35,800
years and finally got approved.
So that, and the reason that's

828
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:39,320
important is because other
insurance companies follow what

829
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:41,440
CMS says.
So if the government says

830
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:43,440
they'll cover something, other
insurance companies have to

831
00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:45,200
cover it.
But if the government says

832
00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:46,840
they're not going to cover
something, other insurance

833
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:48,320
companies don't have to cover
it.

834
00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:52,080
So you need the precedent of the
government saying it's there.

835
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:54,960
So we had a representative at
the time, Mike Gallagher, who

836
00:49:54,960 --> 00:50:02,240
was very helpful and I spoke to
and the and it's now approved.

837
00:50:02,240 --> 00:50:06,280
And myself having now being on
Medicare, I did have to jump

838
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:08,960
through some hoops, but I was
glad I did the work years ago.

839
00:50:10,240 --> 00:50:12,480
I'd be back to sucking welding
oxygen otherwise.

840
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:15,760
So you did that for a while, You
got the welding?

841
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:22,520
Well, it's weird because the
headache is you can't describe

842
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:28,080
how horrible it is and but when
it melts, you can feel the

843
00:50:28,080 --> 00:50:30,680
blood.
What happens is the the vein

844
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:34,600
dial or the artery dilates in a
closed space in your head.

845
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:38,800
And So what the oxygen does is
it causes it to constrict the

846
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:41,760
same as the injections cause it
to constrict.

847
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:45,360
And so as that constriction
occurs, you feel the pain melt

848
00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:47,040
away and then you're back to
normal.

849
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:49,920
You go back and you just live
your life because you have no

850
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:54,800
choice right now.
And, and just to emphasize the

851
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:57,840
pain, there was a a survey that
more than 1000 people with

852
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:04,120
cluster headaches did, comparing
their pain and the IT beat

853
00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:07,920
childbirth, it beat kidney
stones, it beat it beat gout

854
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:12,280
attacks.
And it and five people in the

855
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:15,880
survey said that the gunshot
wounds they had were less

856
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:17,360
painful than the cluster
headaches.

857
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:24,200
And, and the three people who
lost limbs said it and, and, and

858
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:27,440
you have to remember that most
of these things are one or two

859
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:31,080
time events, right children
where, where people with cluster

860
00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:34,600
headaches are getting them, you
know, one to five times a day.

861
00:51:35,880 --> 00:51:39,680
And it's an exquisite pain that
I'll use that word ineffable

862
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:41,720
that we talked about before.
You can't describe where it's

863
00:51:41,720 --> 00:51:45,760
at, and you don't really want
anyone to really appreciate it

864
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:48,360
because no matter how much you
hate someone, you really don't

865
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:53,080
want to wish that on anybody.
It's sometimes you find yourself

866
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:59,600
laughing inconsolably because
it's like.

867
00:51:59,880 --> 00:52:01,600
What was God thinking?
Yeah.

868
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:06,600
Why does this exist?
Or how did my energy beams get

869
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:09,120
crossed?
Or, you know, it's, it's it's

870
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:12,200
it's very fascinating that you
have to be analytic about it and

871
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:15,440
you have to smile a little bit,
otherwise you'd make other

872
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:17,440
options.
Yeah, absolutely.

873
00:52:17,720 --> 00:52:19,920
And you kind of started into one
thing I was going to ask you

874
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:22,360
today that I that we didn't get
to in our last conversation.

875
00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:25,760
If they were that, it doesn't
sound like they're gone for

876
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:29,000
good.
No, I, you know, it's very

877
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:34,000
interesting.
We talked about sentence setting

878
00:52:34,240 --> 00:52:39,520
and how they can be amplifiers
and when you go through certain

879
00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:41,680
life events or a certain point
in your life, you have to be

880
00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:48,440
very careful about what you do.
So it's not something that I

881
00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:51,000
could do right now based on
other life events.

882
00:52:52,120 --> 00:52:55,160
And, and so you have to go
through it.

883
00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:57,440
But, and then I started to think
about it because there are some

884
00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:00,720
studies going on at Yale.
I talked about Andrew Sewell

885
00:53:00,720 --> 00:53:04,640
earlier who did this study, and
there's a young neurologist

886
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:11,960
there named Emmanuel Schindler
who is doing studies looking at

887
00:53:11,960 --> 00:53:15,880
psilocybin and cluster headaches
in a more controlled traditional

888
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:21,680
scientific model.
And it's showing that the

889
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:24,480
headache reduction, there's a
lot of headache reduction.

890
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:32,600
So the people go from maybe 5 or
7 a week to maybe 3 a week based

891
00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:36,520
on the use of the intervention,
which in this case was

892
00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:39,720
psilocybin that she studied.
She's interestingly showing it a

893
00:53:39,720 --> 00:53:42,440
little bit in migraine headaches
too now, because there's a lot

894
00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:43,680
more people with migraine
headaches.

895
00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:49,520
But having said that, what it
did more than anything else is

896
00:53:49,520 --> 00:53:55,200
it improved my attitude.
So you just think about self

897
00:53:55,200 --> 00:54:00,880
emulation anymore.
It made you realize that the

898
00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:04,640
world is worth sticking in as
long as you're allowed to, so

899
00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:06,680
you don't have to dismiss
yourself by your own hand.

900
00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:11,920
OK, that's fascinating, man.
And and the other thing it does,

901
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:15,280
it smooths you out like nothing
you can imagine.

902
00:54:15,720 --> 00:54:17,360
Yeah.
Yeah.

903
00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:20,880
Well, that oneness you were
talking about earlier is a

904
00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:23,360
feeling that's pretty powerful
in a lot of different ways.

905
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:28,320
And then when I talked about the
maps, the neuroscience now is

906
00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:31,600
explaining why these things
work, which is fascinating.

907
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:37,960
They're looking at how the drug
interacts with the receptor in

908
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:43,160
the brain and why the why the
effects last beyond the acute

909
00:54:43,160 --> 00:54:48,360
phase of sensor by changing the
shape of the way the receptor

910
00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:51,720
looks with the molecule.
So it acts as a binding agent.

911
00:54:51,720 --> 00:54:54,920
And This is why things last, why
people's moods change and they

912
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:59,080
last for six months or a year or
until they can reset themselves.

913
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:03,240
It's because so we have
biochemical or organic chemistry

914
00:55:03,240 --> 00:55:07,080
explanations for why these work.
A lot of this stuff was done at

915
00:55:07,080 --> 00:55:08,480
the University of Wisconsin, by
the way.

916
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:09,600
Yeah, I know.
It's awesome.

917
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:12,160
It really has.
Who would think Wisconsin's a

918
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:15,560
leader in psychedelic research?
But some, some incredible people

919
00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:21,640
down there.
And then the another thing we've

920
00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:24,800
learned, and there's a there's a
researcher named Robin Carhartt

921
00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:28,520
Harris who came from London and
now he's at University of

922
00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:32,960
California, San Francisco.
And he has some amazing theories

923
00:55:32,960 --> 00:55:37,600
that he can prove with
neuroimaging about how the brain

924
00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:41,960
interacts on these substances
and how it helps us explain, you

925
00:55:41,960 --> 00:55:45,760
know, if if we're depressed and
we're constantly going down the

926
00:55:45,760 --> 00:55:49,760
same path in our brain, we get a
rut in our brain or we get a

927
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:54,840
canal in our brain.
And what happens is that when

928
00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:58,560
you take these psychedelics is
that rut or that canal goes away

929
00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:02,720
and it smooths the path out and
then you can make a different

930
00:56:02,720 --> 00:56:05,000
path.
OK, now that's.

931
00:56:05,920 --> 00:56:09,760
Rod strokes, but he calls it
cannulization for canal

932
00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:13,560
cannalization.
But that's one thing and then

933
00:56:13,560 --> 00:56:20,680
the other thing is that the
psychedelics interrupt our

934
00:56:20,680 --> 00:56:22,960
ability to inhibit information
around us.

935
00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:27,560
So anyone who's had a
psychedelic experiences gets

936
00:56:27,560 --> 00:56:31,400
this pixelization of the world
or all this different energy

937
00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:32,920
things moving around in the
world.

938
00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:36,560
And, and then if you look at
Huxley's talking about a

939
00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:40,200
reducing valve and you know how
we use our brain to filter out

940
00:56:40,200 --> 00:56:44,320
the wrong information so we can
see reality as that valve allows

941
00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:48,760
us to.
But it's, but the reality is

942
00:56:48,760 --> 00:56:51,880
that when you take these
medications, it turns that valve

943
00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:53,680
off.
And then when you look at the

944
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:57,120
neuroimaging of what the brain's
doing, it goes from having two

945
00:56:57,160 --> 00:57:00,320
hemispheres to talking to each
other everywhere, and it

946
00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:03,320
explains what we're observing in
real life with people who are

947
00:57:03,320 --> 00:57:06,560
excited about these things.
Yeah, absolutely.

948
00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:10,040
And that's part of it's awesome
that that that.

949
00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:12,120
So that's where I start to get
confused what you were talking

950
00:57:12,120 --> 00:57:15,840
about way earlier about when
someone like Robin Carhartt

951
00:57:15,840 --> 00:57:19,880
Harris gets very deep into how
it's changing the brain and how

952
00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:24,560
it lasts and stuff.
I often times I'll like, I

953
00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:27,840
listen to a 2 hour conversation
and you know, a lot of the times

954
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:29,600
I was scratching my head trying
to keep up.

955
00:57:29,600 --> 00:57:33,520
You know, I wish I could digest
it all at one time.

956
00:57:34,120 --> 00:57:38,400
Well, there's a movie that
hasn't quite been released yet,

957
00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:41,680
and I'll give it to you to share
with your audience when the

958
00:57:41,680 --> 00:57:47,760
links are available, that it's
narrated and use animations to

959
00:57:47,760 --> 00:57:51,400
explain exactly the things we're
talking about in a way that's

960
00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:53,920
refreshingly accessible to
everybody.

961
00:57:54,120 --> 00:57:56,560
Awesome.
But because it makes sense, you

962
00:57:56,560 --> 00:57:58,840
know, if someone you know, if
you go to someone and they want

963
00:57:58,840 --> 00:58:01,360
to sell you something or they
want you to do some sort of a

964
00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:04,720
treatment or whatever, but they
can't give you a good reason

965
00:58:04,880 --> 00:58:07,040
why, you know that.
Trust me, I'm a doctor thing,

966
00:58:08,120 --> 00:58:12,000
you know, if you should be able
to explain to anybody why

967
00:58:12,320 --> 00:58:15,200
something works in simple enough
terms that they understand it,

968
00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:17,680
right.
And, and, and Carhartt Harris

969
00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:18,920
can do that.
Yeah.

970
00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:22,080
And that's one of the most
amazing things about him, you

971
00:58:22,080 --> 00:58:23,880
know, Plus he's got that Brit
accent, so.

972
00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:25,760
Yeah, he's pleasurable to listen
to.

973
00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:29,200
Yeah, his pleasure.
So the episode I listened to him

974
00:58:29,240 --> 00:58:32,760
on Huberman and it's a, it's a
nice change of pace because I

975
00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:35,440
mean, Huberman spent two hours
talking about psilocybin by

976
00:58:35,440 --> 00:58:38,080
himself, which I thought was
amazing, just talking to a

977
00:58:38,120 --> 00:58:41,840
screen for two hours.
But I found that fascinating.

978
00:58:41,840 --> 00:58:44,720
But then Robin Carhartt Harris
was able to, yeah, bring it

979
00:58:44,720 --> 00:58:48,200
into.
Yeah, even when you he's written

980
00:58:48,200 --> 00:58:51,080
a number of papers on the
entropic brain which talks about

981
00:58:51,080 --> 00:58:54,480
the tendency of things to
dissociate and to re mingle with

982
00:58:54,480 --> 00:58:58,200
each other.
His latest corollary of that is

983
00:58:58,200 --> 00:59:03,400
the cannalization idea and how
psychedelics eliminate

984
00:59:03,400 --> 00:59:06,360
cannibalization and allow kind
of refresh starter to smooth

985
00:59:06,360 --> 00:59:09,840
things out to start over.
But the important thing is it

986
00:59:09,840 --> 00:59:14,400
gives us a good explanation
that's backed by science and

987
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:16,480
imaging of how these things are
working.

988
00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:19,240
So we know it's not our
imagination, but it can still be

989
00:59:19,240 --> 00:59:21,560
our imagination.
But at least there's data to

990
00:59:21,560 --> 00:59:23,200
back it up.
It goes, it goes back way

991
00:59:23,320 --> 00:59:25,920
earlier in our conversation when
and all of these things to the

992
00:59:25,920 --> 00:59:29,240
vast majority of people who have
done them are unexplainable and

993
00:59:29,240 --> 00:59:31,040
it brings some explanation to
it, right?

994
00:59:31,160 --> 00:59:34,440
Well, I think you, you can't
explain the experience, but you

995
00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:36,200
can explain why the experience
is occurring.

996
00:59:36,240 --> 00:59:36,920
OK, sure.
Yeah.

997
00:59:37,560 --> 00:59:41,160
And you have to have that
because you have to know who and

998
00:59:41,160 --> 00:59:42,560
who should not be doing these
things.

999
00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:45,040
You know, we go back, you know,
if you have any kind of mental

1000
00:59:45,040 --> 00:59:48,440
illness that hasn't been looked
at, you need to avoid this kind

1001
00:59:48,440 --> 00:59:51,560
of stuff.
And until you get to someone who

1002
00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:54,600
has some experience with that to
see if it's appropriate or not,

1003
00:59:55,840 --> 01:00:00,640
you know, in, in our community,
we have some, a whole variation

1004
01:00:00,640 --> 01:00:03,520
of different ketamine providers
because ketamine is accessible

1005
01:00:03,520 --> 01:00:07,480
and legal and, and has some
similar data on depression and

1006
01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:11,440
anxiety treatment.
But you have to be able to do

1007
01:00:11,440 --> 01:00:15,400
that safely and be able to
navigate that kind of experience

1008
01:00:15,400 --> 01:00:18,080
with help from somebody.
So you shouldn't be doing these

1009
01:00:18,080 --> 01:00:20,760
things on your own, which is
unfortunate because you can,

1010
01:00:21,640 --> 01:00:24,440
there's a number of companies
out of Canada and elsewhere

1011
01:00:24,440 --> 01:00:27,400
where you can call and get
ketamine mailed to you.

1012
01:00:28,760 --> 01:00:33,280
And if you're doing it by
yourself, you're probably not

1013
01:00:33,280 --> 01:00:34,960
going to get the result you're
looking for.

1014
01:00:35,240 --> 01:00:38,400
You may get a short term
resolved, and there are always

1015
01:00:38,400 --> 01:00:42,440
exceptions to the rule, but for
the vast majority of people, you

1016
01:00:42,440 --> 01:00:43,800
need someone to help you do the
work.

1017
01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:47,240
Yeah.
And I think maybe that's a good

1018
01:00:47,240 --> 01:00:50,400
place to kind of wrap up our
conversation today.

1019
01:00:50,400 --> 01:00:57,400
John, I, I appreciate your
ability to, I mean, put it into

1020
01:00:57,400 --> 01:01:02,880
words and become, it seems like
you've become an advocate here.

1021
01:01:02,880 --> 01:01:06,000
And is that I'm guessing that's
why you agreed to come on the

1022
01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:07,760
podcast, right?
You want to share?

1023
01:01:07,800 --> 01:01:12,120
Yeah, I mean the, you know, as I
said, you know, I, I, I retired

1024
01:01:12,120 --> 01:01:15,320
from the practice of medicine
for unrelated reasons.

1025
01:01:16,400 --> 01:01:20,920
And as I had eyed that in my
lens and, you know, moving

1026
01:01:20,920 --> 01:01:26,400
forward, I recognize the
importance of these substances

1027
01:01:26,400 --> 01:01:29,600
and helping our veterans and
people with trauma.

1028
01:01:30,320 --> 01:01:34,080
And it's the kind of place where
you have you need to bring.

1029
01:01:35,080 --> 01:01:39,200
What I hope is common sense
understanding and not A1 size

1030
01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:43,680
fits all application to it.
And I developed a relationship

1031
01:01:43,680 --> 01:01:46,120
with an anthropologist in
Milwaukee who works with

1032
01:01:46,120 --> 01:01:50,160
veterans and she's worked very
hard at.

1033
01:01:51,600 --> 01:01:54,600
Making their lives better and
always was inspiring to me.

1034
01:01:54,600 --> 01:01:59,200
So the intent down the road is
to a, if someone dismisses it

1035
01:01:59,200 --> 01:02:02,040
out of hand, say, wait, let's
talk about this and let's give

1036
01:02:02,040 --> 01:02:05,120
it some understanding before you
go and cast aspersions on it.

1037
01:02:05,600 --> 01:02:13,200
And then secondly, to to support
interventions that are going to

1038
01:02:13,200 --> 01:02:15,160
help people who are in this
area.

1039
01:02:15,600 --> 01:02:18,960
And it's interesting too,
because I met another person

1040
01:02:19,800 --> 01:02:23,320
kind of halfway between here and
Milwaukee who works with first

1041
01:02:23,320 --> 01:02:26,360
responders.
And I hadn't appreciated the

1042
01:02:26,360 --> 01:02:30,520
gravity that of the trauma or
first responders have when they

1043
01:02:30,560 --> 01:02:33,200
come on accident scenes.
You know, they deal with

1044
01:02:33,200 --> 01:02:37,080
domestic issues and issues that
were children are affected.

1045
01:02:37,440 --> 01:02:40,240
You know, and these folks are, I
think they're kind of forgotten

1046
01:02:40,240 --> 01:02:43,480
heroes because they're just so
profoundly impacted by what they

1047
01:02:43,480 --> 01:02:46,440
have to witness and try to fix.
And then they have to do with

1048
01:02:46,440 --> 01:02:50,120
the frustration of people not
wanting the truth or dealing

1049
01:02:50,120 --> 01:02:52,640
with it in a way that's going to
be effective to protect the next

1050
01:02:52,640 --> 01:02:55,040
generation.
Yep, There's some conversations

1051
01:02:55,040 --> 01:02:57,120
going with that too.
Rogan just had a guy on recently

1052
01:02:57,120 --> 01:02:59,760
from New Jersey, I think he was.
He's really interesting.

1053
01:02:59,760 --> 01:03:05,400
He's a cop and a counsellor and
he's become very invested in

1054
01:03:05,400 --> 01:03:08,280
using psychedelics to help first
responders specifically.

1055
01:03:08,560 --> 01:03:12,120
And that's this person that I,
that, that actually sought me

1056
01:03:12,120 --> 01:03:15,200
out because we were at the same
meeting in Denver about

1057
01:03:15,200 --> 01:03:20,200
psychedelic science and she saw
my name on the program.

1058
01:03:20,200 --> 01:03:23,960
And so we, we met and we talked
and I, she opened my eyes

1059
01:03:23,960 --> 01:03:27,920
because, you know, she was an
EMT and she saw what's happened

1060
01:03:27,920 --> 01:03:30,160
to her colleagues.
And so now she has a healing

1061
01:03:30,160 --> 01:03:32,680
center.
But again, access becomes a

1062
01:03:32,680 --> 01:03:37,040
problem, right, Because stuff is
not cheap because of the time of

1063
01:03:37,040 --> 01:03:38,840
the people you need to help you
with.

1064
01:03:38,840 --> 01:03:42,200
So we have to have systems in
place that are either self help

1065
01:03:42,200 --> 01:03:47,320
like veterans do a lot of times,
or staffed by volunteers or

1066
01:03:47,320 --> 01:03:50,800
having some sort of a stage way
to keep it safe and keep it

1067
01:03:50,800 --> 01:03:54,680
effective.
Because although I'm sure people

1068
01:03:54,680 --> 01:03:59,080
have great time at Music Fest
and EMD and whatever else, like

1069
01:03:59,080 --> 01:04:02,640
I said, it's not something I
could imagine having a positive

1070
01:04:02,640 --> 01:04:06,320
experience with from a
therapeutic standpoint by doing

1071
01:04:06,320 --> 01:04:08,440
that.
Yeah, yeah.

1072
01:04:08,680 --> 01:04:13,840
And that that whole thing is why
I think it's so important what

1073
01:04:13,840 --> 01:04:18,200
you're doing and willing to do.
I I'm really early in, you can

1074
01:04:18,200 --> 01:04:20,920
tell by in conversation, I'm
really early in my journey about

1075
01:04:20,920 --> 01:04:26,320
learning about this stuff, but
it's something that I I believe

1076
01:04:26,320 --> 01:04:28,440
is really important with what
I've learned so far.

1077
01:04:28,600 --> 01:04:31,160
Yeah, and I hope good
conversations continue and

1078
01:04:31,560 --> 01:04:39,080
people make their opinions based
on information that's real and

1079
01:04:39,360 --> 01:04:41,720
understanding what the big
picture is, because just because

1080
01:04:41,720 --> 01:04:43,760
you're not suffering doesn't
mean the person next to you

1081
01:04:43,800 --> 01:04:45,360
isn't.
Exactly.

1082
01:04:45,520 --> 01:04:48,840
Yeah, Seeing life through maybe
a little bit different lens

1083
01:04:48,840 --> 01:04:51,680
outside of your own right, which
there might be some ways to help

1084
01:04:51,680 --> 01:04:54,120
that with.
Good way then.

1085
01:04:54,120 --> 01:04:55,160
Anyway, good drink.